Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
1.) SSD upgrades costing money up-front vs. aftermarket: Eke another few months out of the old machine to budget up a couple bucks extra, and THEN upgrade. Easy. If that doesn't work for you, then you're not actually using the machine to make money and have literally no business whining about "pro" or non-"pro".
2.) Cost of storage upgrades: NOBODY is offering comparable SSD technology cheaper than Apple at this point. These are SSD connected to 4 lanes PCIe. There are VERY few models on the market that offer this, and Apple makes about half of them. Also, aftermarket upgrades to the last few generations of rMBP are AFAIK only about half the speed of the original, and they aren't much cheaper than the initial upgrade at purchase would have been. (See point 1.) above.)
3.) Replacing the main logic board replaces the SSD, losing all its contents. Duh. You "pro" or not "pro" - back that shit up. If you ain't got two copies, it wasn't important. FWIW, I've had two MLB replacements in 27 years of using Macs. One of them was due to a burned-out FireWire port on a 1999 iMac DV.
4.) Cost of upgrading RAM: This is such a non-issue at this point. Laptops that aren't purchased with maxed-out RAM are upgraded exactly once: to max out the RAM. Either this was factored in from the start and postponed or shifted to third-party RAM to eke out a few dollars, or it was declined outright to eke out a few dollars. See point 1.) above.
5.) Upgrading the SSD: Since these things pretty much max out the 4x PCIexpress lanes, what are you going to replace them with that will really breathe new life into the machine five years down the line? So it comes down to capacity. See point 2.) above.
6.) Replacing a defective SSD: As has been pointed out, the current state of SSD tech should have these drives outlasting the useful life of the laptop itself by a significant margin. Not an issue. I'm more worried about the discrete GPU, to be honest.
It seems to me that the above points (all of which I've seen in this thread) really don't concern actual buyers of these products - they affect people who might be looking for used models three or four years down the line, and can't upgrade them then. Not my problem, nor Apple's.
Point 1. Amazing solution! People are complaining about the starting price being too expensive and the upgrades making them even more expensive and Apple forcing you to upgrade to what you need at time of purchase and your 'solution' is to wait and save more!? Come on, think this through a little. Please!
Point 2. "At this point". And in the future? Ah, you don't know, right? But let's speculate. The new low end MBPs have socketed SSDs. There just might be a possibility of aftermarket upgrades and if someone can do it, they will be cheaper than Apple's. Guaranteed. There's more! Apple is probably getting some of the best prices on these SSDs (volume and investment) but I very much doubt it passing some of those savings onto users. As the industry picks up on this, prices will go down (natural disasters excepted)
"There are very few models at the moment". Yes, at the moment and you say Apple probably makes half of them. But your point is? Nothing. The other half of course, is not made by Apple and in January, more than half will be non-Apple, but what exactly is your point?
Point 3. This is just a rant. Worthless. You state the obvious, given the current state of affairs BUT in the past logic board failure didn't mean you lost your data! This is data loss by design! It wasn't necessary!
Point 4. It is NOT a non issue. I don't want to buy the extra RAM now (At Apple's prices!) If I can get them later on for less. Yes. Refer me to point 1 and your epic fail.
Point 5. Yes. Capacity. Let me refer you to my point 2!
Point 6. "SHOULD outlast". But if it fails???? Not an issue? It's a HUGE issue but your position is "it should never happen"
Wow!
Point 1.) I dunno. I thought it through lots and lots. Save up for a little bit longer and buy bigger is exactly what I did.
Point 2.) Hardly any manufacturer is going to be using 4-lane PCIe SSDs. The few high-end models that will are unlikely to be any cheaper than Apple for quite a while. Apple will adjust prices eventually. But you're now speculating on a) third-party alternatives to the socketed SSD in the 13" becoming available (maybe - but from past experience, it won't be much cheaper, and it will be MUCH slower. Hardly an "upgrade".) and b) other OEMs having access or interest in providing this SSD technology on a large scale. That is doubtful. It will be relegated to a handful of the high-end Alienware and the like. Apple has been using PCIe storage for four years (?) now, and BY FAR the vast majority of laptops are still on SATA.
Point 3.) Telling you that data loss is your own damn fault if you don't back up isn't "ranting"; it's the fucking TRUTH, and boy, do you know it, if you're in any way even halfways "professional". It's not "worthless", either - it's the single most important Truth in Computing, ever.
Point 4.) Price out a 15" machine with non-maxed out RAM for me, won't you? On the 13" machine, its €200 before taxes. See Point 1.)
Point 5.) I guess. I'm pretty sure I can live with 1 GB, as per Point 1.)
Point 6.) What if the Thunderbolt controller breaks? The display? How likely is an SSD failure on soldered components within the first five or six years that wouldn't occur within the first year? Yes, SHOULD outlast. Feel free to rage. I'd find more constructive places to apply my energy if I were you.
Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
Your position is that Apple isn't building products that *you* want them to build, that's a childishly entitled attitude. The fact is millions upon millions of people do, their product decisions are always so logical and consistent, if you can't figure out what they are all about your happiness with Apple and its products are never going to converge ever. Perhaps it did in the past, but now it is *you* who needs to alter expectations, or suffer a life of disappointment with Apple. And your quoting in defence an internet filled with other whiners and complainers, they should thank the powers that be there is an Apple about which for them all to complain, at least something in their life has meaning.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
I read somewhere that the real problem with the SSD being soldered is that, if the logic board fails (as has apparently happened in the past with certain Mbpro models), one could completely lose all the data on the drive. Is this true? If yes, wouldn't this be the greater concern than not being able to upgrade the SSD down the line?
Ever hear of TimeMachine? Cool feature! What "Pro" would not back their stuff up? For that matter, why would anyone not back their stuff up somewhere? Computers can fail at any time. It could be a day after you take it out of the box, month, 6 months, or 6 years. There's no excuse for backing your stuff up. None! As long as you're doing this, you should never lose anything.
Yeah it would be true if the laptop totally died. The same is also true however if the flash storage died as well.
While I agree that a valid, verifiable, and routine backup strategy is important (for this and other reasons,) one cannot ignore the fact that soldering these things on introduces the SSD to an increase of possible points of failure.
Any one of these failures (which historically most have happened a lot more often than SSD failure,) will require a logic board replacement, which now impacts the SSD:
- Failed dGPU, - Failed power switch.
Before "The Soldering," you can have any one of those items fail, without impacting the storage. Only possible point of failure impacting the storage would be the storage itself. That's no longer the case, and probably should not be dismissed out-of-hand.
No amount of discourse on this topic will change the fact that it's valid data that should be considered when trying to make an informed purchase decision for these devices.
Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
Your position is that Apple isn't building products that *you* want them to build, that's a childishly entitled attitude. The fact is millions upon millions of people do, their product decisions are always so logical and consistent, if you can't figure out what they are all about your happiness with Apple and its products are never going to converge ever. Perhaps it did in the past, but now it is *you* who needs to alter expectations, or suffer a life of disappointment with Apple. And your quoting in defence an internet filled with other whiners and complainers, they should thank the powers that be there is an Apple about which for them all to complain, at least something in their life has meaning.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
Still on that horse!
Unconstructive? I see you haven't bothered to take in some of the comments here that are simply vehicles for accusations (except yours of course!) of 'whiner, whinger, complainer, idiot' etc. The definition of constructive!
Yes. You are in that group.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, accept my opinion for what it is: My opinion. And if you can't, just don't read it. IGNORE IT. Why are you even replying?
Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
Your position is that Apple isn't building products that *you* want them to build, that's a childishly entitled attitude. The fact is millions upon millions of people do, their product decisions are always so logical and consistent, if you can't figure out what they are all about your happiness with Apple and its products are never going to converge ever. Perhaps it did in the past, but now it is *you* who needs to alter expectations, or suffer a life of disappointment with Apple. And your quoting in defence an internet filled with other whiners and complainers, they should thank the powers that be there is an Apple about which for them all to complain, at least something in their life has meaning.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
Still on that horse!
Unconstructive? I see you haven't bothered to take in some of the comments here that are simply vehicles for accusations (except yours of course!) of 'whiner, whinger, complainer, idiot' etc. The definition of constructive!
Yes. You are in that group.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, accept my opinion for what it is: My opinion. And if you can't, just don't read it. IGNORE IT. Why are you even replying?
You can deny what I said all you want, that's typical because all you do is argue and argue and argue (poorly) with people and disagree with them when they point out the absurdity of your position, quite often you change what you said or meant and simply move into contradiction mode and deny you said what you said. Your tactics are well obvious, and here you are doing it again. Another example is the juvenile position where anyone who criticises someone's poor behaviour is labelled intolerant or censoring of dissent or some other child's accusation. Respect in discourse is imperative but gratuitous negativity like yours and contrarian attitudes, well those are the hallmarks of the internet troll, someone who wants no discussion or discourse, but rather is there to disrupt, and based on your like:dislike ratio, I'd say that fits you perfectly.
BTW, I never called you an idiot, the others, they're just facts about your behaviour (whining, whinging, complaining - ffs, I stopped counting but you've been called out 4 or 5 or more times by others in this thread alone), but it's you who used the term "fanboy" (one of the troll's favourite little epithets he hurls at others who disagree, case in point, *you* in this thread). It's ironic you keep accusing me of the things you do, then deny you're doing them and others. You argue, argue, argue, you don't discuss or engage in any sort of respectful and constructive discourse. You are trying whip everyone up to a level of rage you express so that you can revolt with them and get Apple to stop being a capitalist company and start building products based on your specs, good luck with that, but here, just fucking knock it off and grow up.
Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
Your position is that Apple isn't building products that *you* want them to build, that's a childishly entitled attitude. The fact is millions upon millions of people do, their product decisions are always so logical and consistent, if you can't figure out what they are all about your happiness with Apple and its products are never going to converge ever. Perhaps it did in the past, but now it is *you* who needs to alter expectations, or suffer a life of disappointment with Apple. And your quoting in defence an internet filled with other whiners and complainers, they should thank the powers that be there is an Apple about which for them all to complain, at least something in their life has meaning.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
Still on that horse!
Unconstructive? I see you haven't bothered to take in some of the comments here that are simply vehicles for accusations (except yours of course!) of 'whiner, whinger, complainer, idiot' etc. The definition of constructive!
Yes. You are in that group.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, accept my opinion for what it is: My opinion. And if you can't, just don't read it. IGNORE IT. Why are you even replying?
You can deny what I said all you want, that's typical because all you do is argue and argue and argue (poorly) with people and disagree with them when they point out the absurdity of your position, quite often you change what you said or meant and simply move into contradiction mode and deny you said what you said. Your tactics are well obvious, and here you are doing it again. Another example is the juvenile position where anyone who criticises someone's poor behaviour is labelled intolerant or censoring of dissent or some other child's accusation. Respect in discourse is imperative but gratuitous negativity like yours and contrarian attitudes, well those are the hallmarks of the internet troll, someone who wants no discussion or discourse, but rather is there to disrupt, and based on your like:dislike ratio, I'd say that fits you perfectly.
BTW, I never called you an idiot, the others, they're just facts about your behaviour (whining, whinging, complaining - ffs, I stopped counting but you've been called out 4 or 5 or more times by others in this thread alone), but it's you who used the term "fanboy" (one of the troll's favourite little epithets he hurls at others who disagree, case in point, *you* in this thread). It's ironic you keep accusing me of the things you do, then deny you're doing them and others. You argue, argue, argue, you don't discuss or engage in any sort of respectful and constructive discourse. You are trying whip everyone up to a level of rage you express so that you can revolt with them and get Apple to stop being a capitalist company and start building products based on your specs, good luck with that, but here, just fucking knock it off and grow up.
Still don't know why you are replying.
I didn't say you called me an idiot. I gave a collection of terms and yes you are in that group of people who used them. It doesn't mean YOU used each and EVERY one of them.
Nobody has 'called me out' as you say. I defend my opinion. Robustly. Please give the examples and I will answer them. If not. Live with it.
I have not changed what I said. My position crystal clear and has been from the start.
I have not contradicted myself.
It is obscene that you try to offload the use of the word 'fanboy' on me and then try to associate it with trolling. And you speak of respect in discourse!
I said that most of the critics had not lowered their discourse to using that term, myself included, in spite of there being a fair amount of them here. The point was to contrast that with the people who question our 'different' views but constantly fill their posts with derogative vocabulary.
I asked you to do a word count to see for yourself and I put you in that group as you yourself waded in with your tirade.
You said you wanted to ignore these opinions. You haven't. I asked you to do it.
If you cannot handle an opposing opinion, step out of the room.
Your post is just a tirade and completely unjustified at that.
I think the 2012-2015 Macbook Retinas are the only prefect laptops Apple ever made.
And yet those perfect laptops are slower, less versatile, and have lesser construction, fewer future-forward features, and a worse display than the better laptops they just released.
Slower, yes. Less versatile, no. Lesser construction? I don't see how this is the case. They are basically the same thing. I would be willing to bet the thicker the model, the tougher it is. Appearance? A draw in my opinion but that is subjective; the space grey is nice but its a laptop, ultimately its function is #1. Except in Apple's book.
Worse display, yes, in terms of brightness and wide color. A push in everything else. Don't forget speakers.
When you need an HDMI at someone's house, school, or work. Better hope you or someone has the dongle. Not to mention USB-A, thunderbolt, and SD-card. Good luck charging your iPhone with the cable from the box. Versatile goes to the 2015 pro retina. No doubt.
What happens when that SSD fails 4 years down the road? Maybe it'll make it to 7-8. Then what? Trash a 2-4K laptop?
Fewer future-forward features? Really starting to sound like an Android fanboy now. The touchbar is nice, likely useful but far from groundbreaking. Especially when you plug it up to a dock and use an external keyboard. It is just good Apple makes an external keyboard with the touchbar...Oh wait..... Re-occurring theme for them lately.
At least the SSD in my 2012 Retina can be replaced. Will be nice when the laptop gets to be some 6-9 years old knowing that I can replace it when it fails. Not sure I will be purchasing another Mac based on the current direction. Before noting that 6-9 is only relevant because a Mac lasts that long; my wifes $500 Dell from 2009 will be 8 years old in 4 months; original everything. It is still kicking, an SSD would make it last 4 more years. That is after I repaired the power supply board because it fell while plugged in. I said, "should have had mag-safe." Which I am glad Apple still uses.......Oh wait....... Idiots dropped that feature too. Saved my laptop some dozen times in college. Lord knows this laptop falling with it plugged in is likely to end that motherboard. At least you can just switch the SSD out....Oh wait.....
I think the 2012-2015 Macbook Retinas are the only prefect laptops Apple ever made. Hopefully they are listening and working on at least adding magsafe back. The transition to USB-C is one I am going to let everyone else handle for 2-3 more years. Apple needs to fix their port situation on their devices, it is a total mess right now. They better push USB-C on everything in 2017.
MagSafe had shortcomings. Apple's backyard is full of MagSafe adapters with broken cables. Since it happens to use Macbooks in very unusual placements, the MagSafe end eventually breaks under continuous stress. Apple has changed the orientation of the plug in recent models but as we know from first Lightning cables, the straight-plug cables break too. And if it breaks, you have to replace the whole adapter, $79. With the new 2/4-port-charging, this unforeseen and annoying issue has been definitively resolved.
Fair point. I have known a few people that it has happened to. Not me but I also don't wrap the cord around the charge line the pop-out hooks seem to suggest. Wrap a cord that tight 100s of times is bound to cause failure. I typically wrap in a circle pattern, loosely. I have two charges, one for home, one for away. Both are in like-new shape except for discoloration on the blocks since they are on the ground. The ability to buy a replacement cable and reuse the block is pretty awesome though. Just wish magsafe was retained. Worse case, I've read there are third party options. The SSD worries me more.
Ignoring all your other stuff (like appearance, which I never mentioned), why do you think an SSD only lasts 4 years?
My reference was to "lesser construction." Wasn't sure if you meant its appearance or its integrity. I addressed both. I think it is funny you state: "Ignoring all your other stuff." Easy way of saying the 2015 is more versatile.
I don't think it would, it shouldn't. But neither should the LCD panel on my macbook pro. It failed in 15 months. The original SSD is doing pretty well. It is fact that pre-mature failures occur. Lucky for me, the replacement of the LCD panel on my laptop didn't require the purchase of any other components.
I would hate to stomach the purchase of a complete new board just to replace an SSD.
Too much longer and users will basically need insurance policies for these damn things. Maybe that is the idea.
I think it is funny you state: "Ignoring all your other stuff." Easy way of saying the 2015 is more versatile.
I ignored the other stuff because it was even more ridiculous. No, a PC with USB-C 3.1/TB3 are the most future-forward and versatile ports that have ever come to personal computing.
I don't think it would, it shouldn't.
You're saying that a solid state drive won't last more than 4 years and yet you have no evidence to support this, and have ignored all the evidence presented in this thread about the number of writes modern NAND will get on average before there is a failure to a block.
Why does your lack of education on this topic make you believe a conspiracy without any inclination to understand how SSDs work?
Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
Your position is that Apple isn't building products that *you* want them to build, that's a childishly entitled attitude. The fact is millions upon millions of people do, their product decisions are always so logical and consistent, if you can't figure out what they are all about your happiness with Apple and its products are never going to converge ever. Perhaps it did in the past, but now it is *you* who needs to alter expectations, or suffer a life of disappointment with Apple. And your quoting in defence an internet filled with other whiners and complainers, they should thank the powers that be there is an Apple about which for them all to complain, at least something in their life has meaning.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
Still on that horse!
Unconstructive? I see you haven't bothered to take in some of the comments here that are simply vehicles for accusations (except yours of course!) of 'whiner, whinger, complainer, idiot' etc. The definition of constructive!
Yes. You are in that group.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, accept my opinion for what it is: My opinion. And if you can't, just don't read it. IGNORE IT. Why are you even replying?
You can deny what I said all you want, that's typical because all you do is argue and argue and argue (poorly) with people and disagree with them when they point out the absurdity of your position, quite often you change what you said or meant and simply move into contradiction mode and deny you said what you said. Your tactics are well obvious, and here you are doing it again. Another example is the juvenile position where anyone who criticises someone's poor behaviour is labelled intolerant or censoring of dissent or some other child's accusation. Respect in discourse is imperative but gratuitous negativity like yours and contrarian attitudes, well those are the hallmarks of the internet troll, someone who wants no discussion or discourse, but rather is there to disrupt, and based on your like:dislike ratio, I'd say that fits you perfectly.
BTW, I never called you an idiot, the others, they're just facts about your behaviour (whining, whinging, complaining - ffs, I stopped counting but you've been called out 4 or 5 or more times by others in this thread alone), but it's you who used the term "fanboy" (one of the troll's favourite little epithets he hurls at others who disagree, case in point, *you* in this thread). It's ironic you keep accusing me of the things you do, then deny you're doing them and others. You argue, argue, argue, you don't discuss or engage in any sort of respectful and constructive discourse. You are trying whip everyone up to a level of rage you express so that you can revolt with them and get Apple to stop being a capitalist company and start building products based on your specs, good luck with that, but here, just fucking knock it off and grow up.
Still don't know why I am compelled to whine all day long here, maybe it's my meds, I'm off them, forgive me.
You didn't by chance get banned from another site recently, did you? ;-) The reason I ask is that you've been a member here since 2004, but only recently started to comment in the forums (and boy did you!), it's as if you spent the past 12 years somewhere else but came (back) here only recently. Given your penchant for posting I doubt you've been a lurker all these years, which means you've been elsewhere all this time, that's what I'd assume.
1.) SSD upgrades costing money up-front vs. aftermarket: Eke another few months out of the old machine to budget up a couple bucks extra, and THEN upgrade. Easy. If that doesn't work for you, then you're not actually using the machine to make money and have literally no business whining about "pro" or non-"pro".
Point 1. Amazing solution! People are complaining about the starting price being too expensive and the upgrades making them even more expensive and Apple forcing you to upgrade to what you need at time of purchase and your 'solution' is to wait and save more!? Come on, think this through a little. Please!
You are not required to replace any existing Macs today. As spheric states, you can defer a new MBP purchase until you have enough money to buy the machine you desire and all it does is lengthen your refresh cycle a bit.
The only upgrade you probably would want to buy for the 15" MBP is the 512GB SSD upgrade for $200.
That's around a 10% increase so if you increase your refresh cycle from 36 months to 40 months to get the 512GB upgrade it's a wash.
Our stock MBP upgrade is likely that base 15" model for $1999 because our refresh budget is about $2K/3 years. As a dev I'll ask for the step up model with the Radeon 450 and a 512GB SSD for $2599. They'll likely approve the difference and that's what I'll get.
If I were an independent consultant or small business owner, to keep myself at the same $2K every 3 years I would simply defer my next update until the 3.9 year mark.
Whether it's better to buy a $2000 Windows laptop every 3 years vs a $2600 Mac every 3.9 years is up to the individual. The cost over time is a wash. Note that the Dell XPS 15 for $1899 only comes with a 256GB SSD and 16GB. The upgrade to 512GB is $150 and already comes with an nvidia GTX960M. It's not a bad laptop but I already have a Surface Book so don't need another windows machine for development. I'd probably choose to refresh every 4 years over 3 to keep OS X if I had to but $600 just isn't a big expense. OS X saves me more than 10 hours a year as a developer over windows. The ROI is 3 times given the higher productivity and that's on top of the reduced IT support cost.
So yes, the solution is just to wait and save more. That's true of almost every capex purchase. Not enough remaining capex for this year? Save and buy it next year.
Believe me. It doesn't matter how small the voice of the critics is. It has a right to be heard. You speak of trolling and whining. I have seen none of that. Only people reasoning their opinions. If you can't handle that, you don't even have to 'ignore' anyone. just don't read them, It's that simple.
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
Your position is that Apple isn't building products that *you* want them to build, that's a childishly entitled attitude. The fact is millions upon millions of people do, their product decisions are always so logical and consistent, if you can't figure out what they are all about your happiness with Apple and its products are never going to converge ever. Perhaps it did in the past, but now it is *you* who needs to alter expectations, or suffer a life of disappointment with Apple. And your quoting in defence an internet filled with other whiners and complainers, they should thank the powers that be there is an Apple about which for them all to complain, at least something in their life has meaning.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
Still on that horse!
Unconstructive? I see you haven't bothered to take in some of the comments here that are simply vehicles for accusations (except yours of course!) of 'whiner, whinger, complainer, idiot' etc. The definition of constructive!
Yes. You are in that group.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, accept my opinion for what it is: My opinion. And if you can't, just don't read it. IGNORE IT. Why are you even replying?
You can deny what I said all you want, that's typical because all you do is argue and argue and argue (poorly) with people and disagree with them when they point out the absurdity of your position, quite often you change what you said or meant and simply move into contradiction mode and deny you said what you said. Your tactics are well obvious, and here you are doing it again. Another example is the juvenile position where anyone who criticises someone's poor behaviour is labelled intolerant or censoring of dissent or some other child's accusation. Respect in discourse is imperative but gratuitous negativity like yours and contrarian attitudes, well those are the hallmarks of the internet troll, someone who wants no discussion or discourse, but rather is there to disrupt, and based on your like:dislike ratio, I'd say that fits you perfectly.
BTW, I never called you an idiot, the others, they're just facts about your behaviour (whining, whinging, complaining - ffs, I stopped counting but you've been called out 4 or 5 or more times by others in this thread alone), but it's you who used the term "fanboy" (one of the troll's favourite little epithets he hurls at others who disagree, case in point, *you* in this thread). It's ironic you keep accusing me of the things you do, then deny you're doing them and others. You argue, argue, argue, you don't discuss or engage in any sort of respectful and constructive discourse. You are trying whip everyone up to a level of rage you express so that you can revolt with them and get Apple to stop being a capitalist company and start building products based on your specs, good luck with that, but here, just fucking knock it off and grow up.
Still don't know why I am compelled to whine all day long here, maybe it's my meds, I'm off them, forgive me.
You didn't by chance get banned from another site recently, did you? ;-) The reason I ask is that you've been a member here since 2004, but only recently started to comment in the forums (and boy did you!), it's as if you spent the past 12 years somewhere else but came (back) here only recently. Given your penchant for posting I doubt you've been a lurker all these years, which means you've been elsewhere all this time, that's what I'd assume.
No. This is not my regular home. I have never been banned from anywhere as far as I can remember. I post here from time to time.
Yes, with the furor over these new MBPs I have posted more frequently the last couple of weeks.
I don't lurk but do visit frequently when I get linked in to an article and then sometimes dip into the comments.
I can't dedicate too much time to this due to work constraints so I'm largely posting from my Huawei and on a train with spotty signal coverage. It isn't the best environment so some posts can seem a little disjointed. Working locally with three languages and using a dual language keyboard doesn't help either.
Why isn't the T1 chip modular? What if that breaks? What if the GPU breaks?
Apple should make EVERY chip on the logic board socketable so that I can easily replace it all myself¡ Anything smaller than 3" is too thin for notebooks¡
You know perfectly well we are talking about the usual (the historical) user upgradeable parts but you just try to muddy things. Nobody is asking for anything that Apple itself hasn't already done or is not standard industry practice That said, we already know that if the Touch ID hardware goes south it wI'll require an expensive repair. Very expensive.
What does "historical" have to do with anything? With that argument you might as well say that HDDs should be used instead of SSDs because that's what was historically used in PCs. Don't you have a textile factory to destroy?¡
One thing is a change in technology (hard disks to SSD), another thing is a change in practice, which is another story altogether.
1.) SSD upgrades costing money up-front vs. aftermarket: Eke another few months out of the old machine to budget up a couple bucks extra, and THEN upgrade. Easy. If that doesn't work for you, then you're not actually using the machine to make money and have literally no business whining about "pro" or non-"pro".
2.) Cost of storage upgrades: NOBODY is offering comparable SSD technology cheaper than Apple at this point. These are SSD connected to 4 lanes PCIe. There are VERY few models on the market that offer this, and Apple makes about half of them. Also, aftermarket upgrades to the last few generations of rMBP are AFAIK only about half the speed of the original, and they aren't much cheaper than the initial upgrade at purchase would have been. (See point 1.) above.)
3.) Replacing the main logic board replaces the SSD, losing all its contents. Duh. You "pro" or not "pro" - back that shit up. If you ain't got two copies, it wasn't important. FWIW, I've had two MLB replacements in 27 years of using Macs. One of them was due to a burned-out FireWire port on a 1999 iMac DV.
4.) Cost of upgrading RAM: This is such a non-issue at this point. Laptops that aren't purchased with maxed-out RAM are upgraded exactly once: to max out the RAM. Either this was factored in from the start and postponed or shifted to third-party RAM to eke out a few dollars, or it was declined outright to eke out a few dollars. See point 1.) above.
5.) Upgrading the SSD: Since these things pretty much max out the 4x PCIexpress lanes, what are you going to replace them with that will really breathe new life into the machine five years down the line? So it comes down to capacity. See point 2.) above.
6.) Replacing a defective SSD: As has been pointed out, the current state of SSD tech should have these drives outlasting the useful life of the laptop itself by a significant margin. Not an issue. I'm more worried about the discrete GPU, to be honest.
It seems to me that the above points (all of which I've seen in this thread) really don't concern actual buyers of these products - they affect people who might be looking for used models three or four years down the line, and can't upgrade them then. Not my problem, nor Apple's.
Why isn't the T1 chip modular? What if that breaks? What if the GPU breaks?
Apple should make EVERY chip on the logic board socketable so that I can easily replace it all myself¡ Anything smaller than 3" is too thin for notebooks¡
Strawman argument. It has already been said multiple times that no one is expecting a Lego set with infinitely replaceable pieces. But SSDs/hard drives and RAM are standard upgrades that even relative amateurs can undertake or have a slightly more tech savvy friend do for them.
No. They USED TO be "standard upgrades". Same as power supplies, displays, Floppy drives, Fans, and generic motherboards. That was never true to the same extent for laptops as for desktops, and the world has changed over the past few decades.
I notice that you're no longer whining over non-upgradeable displays on laptops. Why? Don't you miss the days where a techie with more time than sense could stick a 1024x768 display in his toilet-seat iBook?
Yes, people used to do this. But at some point, the benefits of newer technology outweighed the benefits of having modular, replaceable design.
You won't find socketable LPDDR3 laptop RAM because it simply does not exist. Welcome to 2015.
Comments
As for a minority voice, well I beg to differ. Take your head out of the sand and look around you. Look at the comments all over the net. Look at the frustration, even the anger. Not just from 'pros'. From all kinds of users. Apple users. Not trolls. Long term Apple users included. Look at the facts. Phil Schiller has come out twice to defend Apple's position. Do you think he would do that if everything was going great? No. Apple's typical stance is silence. Not this time. Not by a long shot.
If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read them. Argument and counter argument. You know, that's what forums are for.
There is a whole lot of 100% pure fanboyism here but I haven't seen that word banded around by hardly any of the critics. On the other hand do a word count and see how many times you see 'bitcher, whiner, idiot' etc. thrown around gratuituiosly. You might wake up to a different reality but like I said, take your head out of the sand first and when you do it, get off of your high horse.
I dunno. I thought it through lots and lots. Save up for a little bit longer and buy bigger is exactly what I did.
Point 2.)
Hardly any manufacturer is going to be using 4-lane PCIe SSDs. The few high-end models that will are unlikely to be any cheaper than Apple for quite a while. Apple will adjust prices eventually. But you're now speculating on a) third-party alternatives to the socketed SSD in the 13" becoming available (maybe - but from past experience, it won't be much cheaper, and it will be MUCH slower. Hardly an "upgrade".) and b) other OEMs having access or interest in providing this SSD technology on a large scale. That is doubtful. It will be relegated to a handful of the high-end Alienware and the like. Apple has been using PCIe storage for four years (?) now, and BY FAR the vast majority of laptops are still on SATA.
Point 3.)
Telling you that data loss is your own damn fault if you don't back up isn't "ranting"; it's the fucking TRUTH, and boy, do you know it, if you're in any way even halfways "professional".
It's not "worthless", either - it's the single most important Truth in Computing, ever.
Point 4.)
Price out a 15" machine with non-maxed out RAM for me, won't you?
On the 13" machine, its €200 before taxes. See Point 1.)
Point 5.)
I guess. I'm pretty sure I can live with 1 GB, as per Point 1.)
Point 6.)
What if the Thunderbolt controller breaks? The display? How likely is an SSD failure on soldered components within the first five or six years that wouldn't occur within the first year?
Yes, SHOULD outlast. Feel free to rage. I'd find more constructive places to apply my energy if I were you.
Just because a decision is bad for you doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else or the company, and the comments and complaints that come from you are so antithetical to Apple and where they are today and are going tomorrow that the last thing I want (or any of its other 100s of millions of customers) is for them to embrace any single one of your suggestions, because if they do they would cease to be Apple. I'm sure they have run the numbers and decided your wants simply don't fit their strategy, so you effectively are going to be ignored by them. The sooner you realise this, the better it'll be for all of us, including you, so stop with the endless complaining (whining, bitching, unconstructive commenting, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, nothing ever positive ever from you, not ever).
I don't need to take my head out of the sand, Apple's success speaks volumes in support of my position and utterly destroys yours. You suggest "Mr. Ive take a break...", do you honestly think they're going to dump him and embrace your notions of what Apple should be? Seriously? Who's got their head in the sand now?
Any one of these failures (which historically most have happened a lot more often than SSD failure,) will require a logic board replacement, which now impacts the SSD:
- Failed dGPU,
- Failed power switch.
Before "The Soldering," you can have any one of those items fail, without impacting the storage. Only possible point of failure impacting the storage would be the storage itself. That's no longer the case, and probably should not be dismissed out-of-hand.
No amount of discourse on this topic will change the fact that it's valid data that should be considered when trying to make an informed purchase decision for these devices.
Unconstructive? I see you haven't bothered to take in some of the comments here that are simply vehicles for accusations (except yours of course!) of 'whiner, whinger, complainer, idiot' etc. The definition of constructive!
Yes. You are in that group.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, accept my opinion for what it is: My opinion. And if you can't, just don't read it. IGNORE IT. Why are you even replying?
BTW, I never called you an idiot, the others, they're just facts about your behaviour (whining, whinging, complaining - ffs, I stopped counting but you've been called out 4 or 5 or more times by others in this thread alone), but it's you who used the term "fanboy" (one of the troll's favourite little epithets he hurls at others who disagree, case in point, *you* in this thread). It's ironic you keep accusing me of the things you do, then deny you're doing them and others. You argue, argue, argue, you don't discuss or engage in any sort of respectful and constructive discourse. You are trying whip everyone up to a level of rage you express so that you can revolt with them and get Apple to stop being a capitalist company and start building products based on your specs, good luck with that, but here, just fucking knock it off and grow up.
I didn't say you called me an idiot. I gave a collection of terms and yes you are in that group of people who used them. It doesn't mean YOU used each and EVERY one of them.
Nobody has 'called me out' as you say. I defend my opinion. Robustly. Please give the examples and I will answer them. If not. Live with it.
I have not changed what I said. My position crystal clear and has been from the start.
I have not contradicted myself.
It is obscene that you try to offload the use of the word 'fanboy' on me and then try to associate it with trolling. And you speak of respect in discourse!
I said that most of the critics had not lowered their discourse to using that term, myself included, in spite of there being a fair amount of them here. The point was to contrast that with the people who question our 'different' views but constantly fill their posts with derogative vocabulary.
I asked you to do a word count to see for yourself and I put you in that group as you yourself waded in with your tirade.
You said you wanted to ignore these opinions. You haven't. I asked you to do it.
If you cannot handle an opposing opinion, step out of the room.
Your post is just a tirade and completely unjustified at that.
My reference was to "lesser construction." Wasn't sure if you meant its appearance or its integrity. I addressed both.
I think it is funny you state: "Ignoring all your other stuff." Easy way of saying the 2015 is more versatile.
I don't think it would, it shouldn't. But neither should the LCD panel on my macbook pro. It failed in 15 months. The original SSD is doing pretty well. It is fact that pre-mature failures occur. Lucky for me, the replacement of the LCD panel on my laptop didn't require the purchase of any other components.
I would hate to stomach the purchase of a complete new board just to replace an SSD.
Too much longer and users will basically need insurance policies for these damn things. Maybe that is the idea.
Why does your lack of education on this topic make you believe a conspiracy without any inclination to understand how SSDs work?
The only upgrade you probably would want to buy for the 15" MBP is the 512GB SSD upgrade for $200.
That's around a 10% increase so if you increase your refresh cycle from 36 months to 40 months to get the 512GB upgrade it's a wash.
Our stock MBP upgrade is likely that base 15" model for $1999 because our refresh budget is about $2K/3 years. As a dev I'll ask for the step up model with the Radeon 450 and a 512GB SSD for $2599. They'll likely approve the difference and that's what I'll get.
If I were an independent consultant or small business owner, to keep myself at the same $2K every 3 years I would simply defer my next update until the 3.9 year mark.
Whether it's better to buy a $2000 Windows laptop every 3 years vs a $2600 Mac every 3.9 years is up to the individual. The cost over time is a wash. Note that the Dell XPS 15 for $1899 only comes with a 256GB SSD and 16GB. The upgrade to 512GB is $150 and already comes with an nvidia GTX960M. It's not a bad laptop but I already have a Surface Book so don't need another windows machine for development. I'd probably choose to refresh every 4 years over 3 to keep OS X if I had to but $600 just isn't a big expense. OS X saves me more than 10 hours a year as a developer over windows. The ROI is 3 times given the higher productivity and that's on top of the reduced IT support cost.
So yes, the solution is just to wait and save more. That's true of almost every capex purchase. Not enough remaining capex for this year? Save and buy it next year.
Yes, with the furor over these new MBPs I have posted more frequently the last couple of weeks.
I don't lurk but do visit frequently when I get linked in to an article and then sometimes dip into the comments.
I can't dedicate too much time to this due to work constraints so I'm largely posting from my Huawei and on a train with spotty signal coverage. It isn't the best environment so some posts can seem a little disjointed. Working locally with three languages and using a dual language keyboard doesn't help either.