In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
The obsession with making things thinner is purely Apple's own fascination, nobody else's.. Us 'Mac Fan Boys' simply want Apple to make Macs with today's technology, and not 5 years old like the laughable Mac Pro. It's ridiculous that such a rich and technologically advanced company as Apple should not be able to design and manufacture a reliable keyboard for a $3000 laptop. Stop making excuses for Apple.
The obsession with thinner is not "ours," but it is shared by far and away the non-techie. Conservatively, they outnumber us by at least 10 to 1.
If you need confirmation, go hang out at your local Apple retail store for an hour.
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
The obsession with making things thinner is purely Apple's own fascination, nobody else's.. Us 'Mac Fan Boys' simply want Apple to make Macs with today's technology, and not 5 years old like the laughable Mac Pro. It's ridiculous that such a rich and technologically advanced company as Apple should not be able to design and manufacture a reliable keyboard for a $3000 laptop. Stop making excuses for Apple.
The obsession with thinner is not "ours," but it is shared by far and away the non-techie. Conservatively, they outnumber us by at least 10 to 1.
If you need confirmation, go hang out at your local Apple retail store for an hour.
To reiterate a couple points, 1) Apple has many generations of products that have gotten thicker YoY so it's hard to make a claim that Apple is only obsessed with thinness, and 2) I've seen no evidence that shows that it's not possible for Mac notebooks to have better keyboards at their current thickness.
mrc's comment looks like a post hoc fallacy, to me.
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
Nobody complained until it became clear that Apple had taken their thin, light, fast mission perhaps a step too far.
For the most part, laptops have entered a mature phase of the life cycle where extraordinary advances are few and far between. And instead, it is in a state of trade-offs where emphasizing one set of characteristics compromises a different set of characteristics and priorities.
As I have mentioned before, the Lenovo Thinkpad line prioritized reliability, dependability and repairability over thin and light (they're fast and powerful just like MacBooks though). The damn things are built like tanks and come with a manual showing precisely how to replace and upgrade almost every component in the machine all the way down to the motherboard. And the keyboards type like a dream and last forever -- and if they don't the user can replace it in about 15 minutes. But, like a tank, they are thick and heavy and zero fun to carry around.
So, which is better: Thinkpad or MacBook Pro? The answer depends on your own personal priorities.
Hmm...I’m not sure which “Mac Fan Boys” were obsessed with ultra thin and light laptops. Certainly not the Marco Arment’s of the world. Anyway where is the evidence the issue with this keyboard is the result of Apple’s obsession with thinness? There are other laptops just as thin and light as the MB and MBP and we’re not hearing of these kinds of keyboard issues.
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
Nobody complained until it became clear that Apple had taken their thin, light, fast mission perhaps a step too far.
For the most part, laptops have entered a mature phase of the life cycle where extraordinary advances are few and far between. And instead, it is in a state of trade-offs where emphasizing one set of characteristics compromises a different set of characteristics and priorities.
As I have mentioned before, the Lenovo Thinkpad line prioritized reliability, dependability and repairability over thin and light (they're fast and powerful just like MacBooks though). The damn things are built like tanks and come with a manual showing precisely how to replace and upgrade almost every component in the machine all the way down to the motherboard. And the keyboards type like a dream and last forever -- and if they don't the user can replace it in about 15 minutes. But, like a tank, they are thick and heavy and zero fun to carry around.
So, which is better: Thinkpad or MacBook Pro? The answer depends on your own personal priorities.
Hmm...I’m not sure which “Mac Fan Boys” were obsessed with ultra thin and light laptops. Certainly not the Marco Arment’s of the world. Anyway where is the evidence the issue with this keyboard is the result of Apple’s obsession with thinness? There are other laptops just as thin and light as the MB and MBP and we’re not hearing of these kinds of keyboard issues.
AI even reviewed and compared the MBP to a Dell not too long ago. It's thinner and with a better keyboard. The biggest fault was making the bezel around the display so thin that the camera had to be embedded down low so that it looked up your nostrils, and yet I've heard many a self-proclaimed "Pro" say that Apple needs thinner bezels despite not knowing how that would make their workflow better.
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
Nobody complained until it became clear that Apple had taken their thin, light, fast mission perhaps a step too far.
For the most part, laptops have entered a mature phase of the life cycle where extraordinary advances are few and far between. And instead, it is in a state of trade-offs where emphasizing one set of characteristics compromises a different set of characteristics and priorities.
As I have mentioned before, the Lenovo Thinkpad line prioritized reliability, dependability and repairability over thin and light (they're fast and powerful just like MacBooks though). The damn things are built like tanks and come with a manual showing precisely how to replace and upgrade almost every component in the machine all the way down to the motherboard. And the keyboards type like a dream and last forever -- and if they don't the user can replace it in about 15 minutes. But, like a tank, they are thick and heavy and zero fun to carry around.
So, which is better: Thinkpad or MacBook Pro? The answer depends on your own personal priorities.
Hmm...I’m not sure which “Mac Fan Boys” were obsessed with ultra thin and light laptops. Certainly not the Marco Arment’s of the world. Anyway where is the evidence the issue with this keyboard is the result of Apple’s obsession with thinness? There are other laptops just as thin and light as the MB and MBP and we’re not hearing of these kinds of keyboard issues.
AI even reviewed and compared the MBP to a Dell not too long ago. It's thinner and with a better keyboard. The biggest fault was making the bezel around the display so thin that the camera had to be embedded down low so that it looked up your nostrils, and yet I've heard many a self-proclaimed "Pro" say that Apple needs thinner bezels despite not knowing how that would make their workflow better.
Thinner bezels logically give you a bigger screen in the same overall frame dimensions as a machine with a smaller screen. It's a massive plus for many users. Not so much about workflow as getting the most out of one of a device's key work points (the screen) without increasing overall size. The knock on effect is moving the webcam to a less than ideal (but still functional) place. For workflow, I actually like touchscreens for some actions even on laptops but it seems Apple has ruled that option out. I was sold on widescreen laptops but when in the 13/14" form factor range I'm beginning to see the advantages of squarer aspect ratios.
There is some debate about notches on laptops but I wonder if a 4 mm bezel could eventually house a camera array on a laptop without a notch. For casual use, I think a nostril cam is workable for most people except when you want to type while using it, and am sure that, given the current options, most would gladly go for the minimal bezels over thick bezels with top mounted webcam (seeing as there are huge amounts of people who have them permanently taped over anyway).
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
Nobody complained until it became clear that Apple had taken their thin, light, fast mission perhaps a step too far.
For the most part, laptops have entered a mature phase of the life cycle where extraordinary advances are few and far between. And instead, it is in a state of trade-offs where emphasizing one set of characteristics compromises a different set of characteristics and priorities.
As I have mentioned before, the Lenovo Thinkpad line prioritized reliability, dependability and repairability over thin and light (they're fast and powerful just like MacBooks though). The damn things are built like tanks and come with a manual showing precisely how to replace and upgrade almost every component in the machine all the way down to the motherboard. And the keyboards type like a dream and last forever -- and if they don't the user can replace it in about 15 minutes. But, like a tank, they are thick and heavy and zero fun to carry around.
So, which is better: Thinkpad or MacBook Pro? The answer depends on your own personal priorities.
Hmm...I’m not sure which “Mac Fan Boys” were obsessed with ultra thin and light laptops. Certainly not the Marco Arment’s of the world. Anyway where is the evidence the issue with this keyboard is the result of Apple’s obsession with thinness? There are other laptops just as thin and light as the MB and MBP and we’re not hearing of these kinds of keyboard issues.
AI even reviewed and compared the MBP to a Dell not too long ago. It's thinner and with a better keyboard. The biggest fault was making the bezel around the display so thin that the camera had to be embedded down low so that it looked up your nostrils, and yet I've heard many a self-proclaimed "Pro" say that Apple needs thinner bezels despite not knowing how that would make their workflow better.
Thinner bezels logically give you a bigger screen in the same overall frame dimensions as a machine with a smaller screen. It's a massive plus for many users. Not so much about workflow as getting the most out of one of a device's key work points (the screen) without increasing overall size. The knock on effect is moving the webcam to a less than ideal (but still functional) place. For workflow, I actually like touchscreens for some actions even on laptops but it seems Apple has ruled that option out. I was sold on widescreen laptops but when in the 13/14" form factor range I'm beginning to see the advantages of squarer aspect ratios.
There is some debate about notches on laptops but I wonder if a 4 mm bezel could eventually house a camera array on a laptop without a notch. For casual use, I think a nostril cam is workable for most people except when you want to type while using it, and am sure that, given the current options, most would gladly go for the minimal bezels over thick bezels with top mounted webcam (seeing as there are huge amounts of people who have them permanently taped over anyway).
I would be willing to lose the camera completely if it meant I could have more screen pixels in the same amount of physical space.
I don't think my wife or I have ever used the camera on our Macs. Even once. Do other people use them regularly?
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster. So Apple responded with an ultra thin lightweight powerful machine. But to do that they had to sacrifice durability and repairability,
Nobody complained until it became clear that Apple had taken their thin, light, fast mission perhaps a step too far.
For the most part, laptops have entered a mature phase of the life cycle where extraordinary advances are few and far between. And instead, it is in a state of trade-offs where emphasizing one set of characteristics compromises a different set of characteristics and priorities.
As I have mentioned before, the Lenovo Thinkpad line prioritized reliability, dependability and repairability over thin and light (they're fast and powerful just like MacBooks though). The damn things are built like tanks and come with a manual showing precisely how to replace and upgrade almost every component in the machine all the way down to the motherboard. And the keyboards type like a dream and last forever -- and if they don't the user can replace it in about 15 minutes. But, like a tank, they are thick and heavy and zero fun to carry around.
So, which is better: Thinkpad or MacBook Pro? The answer depends on your own personal priorities.
Hmm...I’m not sure which “Mac Fan Boys” were obsessed with ultra thin and light laptops. Certainly not the Marco Arment’s of the world. Anyway where is the evidence the issue with this keyboard is the result of Apple’s obsession with thinness? There are other laptops just as thin and light as the MB and MBP and we’re not hearing of these kinds of keyboard issues.
AI even reviewed and compared the MBP to a Dell not too long ago. It's thinner and with a better keyboard. The biggest fault was making the bezel around the display so thin that the camera had to be embedded down low so that it looked up your nostrils, and yet I've heard many a self-proclaimed "Pro" say that Apple needs thinner bezels despite not knowing how that would make their workflow better.
Thinner bezels logically give you a bigger screen in the same overall frame dimensions as a machine with a smaller screen. It's a massive plus for many users. Not so much about workflow as getting the most out of one of a device's key work points (the screen) without increasing overall size. The knock on effect is moving the webcam to a less than ideal (but still functional) place. For workflow, I actually like touchscreens for some actions even on laptops but it seems Apple has ruled that option out. I was sold on widescreen laptops but when in the 13/14" form factor range I'm beginning to see the advantages of squarer aspect ratios.
There is some debate about notches on laptops but I wonder if a 4 mm bezel could eventually house a camera array on a laptop without a notch. For casual use, I think a nostril cam is workable for most people except when you want to type while using it, and am sure that, given the current options, most would gladly go for the minimal bezels over thick bezels with top mounted webcam (seeing as there are huge amounts of people who have them permanently taped over anyway).
I would be willing to lose the camera completely if it meant I could have more screen pixels in the same amount of physical space.
I don't think my wife or I have ever used the camera on our Macs. Even once. Do other people use them regularly?
I'm in an identical situation. I can't remember when I last used a webcam. Personally, WhatsApp and Telegram cover my realtime needs.
Professionally I work with larger institutions who all have dedicated call rooms. I never need to use them myself, though. I have never seen professional user that didn't have the webcam taped over either.
A few who work for multinationals from home use standalone webcams.
urashid said: I agree. I haven't had any issues with my 2015 Macbook at home, but the work Macbook Pro 2016 already has a sticky spacebar. Luckily, I use an external, wired keyboard at work (still going strong after eight years).
I have a friend with a MacBook (not sure which year) but after he got used to it, he loves the keyboard and hasn't had issues. For my impression of it, though, it is likely a numbers thing. He's the only person I know with a MacBook, whereas I know a bunch of people with MacBook Pros, as well as know a lot of podcasters, YouTubers, etc. with MacBook Pros, so just by paying attention, I have a reasonable sample-size.
One handy tip: If you are visiting a country where Apple's warranty is not supported, bring along a Apple wireless keyboard and trackpad. Pair them with your laptop before you leave. They will enable you to use a computer with a broken keyboard while you wait...
Just wanted to highlight that out, as it is a very good tip... or maybe even having a spare USB keyboard/mouse around just in case.
Are the replacements going to be any more reliable? I.e. a new version Or, is it the exact same keyboard?
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question (or at least $700). I'm hoping you'd get at least the 2017 revision (so, if you have a 2016, it might be better), but maybe Apple will create a v3 repair part?
In other words: Thin, light & high performance are not the only factors most people look for in a laptop. For example: Toyota's became the #1 selling car due to their reputation as "bullet proof". While I applaud Apple for their move, I think they have further yet to go...)
Part of the problem might be the redefinition of 'pro' and Apple's shift in target market. Maybe the new market just don't care about durability that much, and if pro is for 'make money with' rather than 'professional quality' then it wouldn't matter in that regard as much either.
People who buy Ferraris are a different bunch than buy Toyotas. Apple was historically, IMO, more like Porsche (fast, street-able, relatively reliable).
avon b7 said: This repair (according to Apple) only affects a very small percentage of units and is dealt with as problems occur.
Maybe < 50% is very small?
avon b7 said: On the communication question, this is what Apple has largely always done wrong. Silence.
They can't do that so much anymore, IMO. First, there is now social media and such which amplifies user-dissatisfaction like it does in any other area. But, second, being silent only only works when you're what Apple previously was.... ahead on technology, best of the best, with a cult-like following, etc. (and even then we didn't like it). As Apple shifts more to any-ol' consumer electronics giant, they will have to start changing their ways.
hammeroftruth said: Well technically it's not a lemon, unless you have had at least 3 major repairs and have to have a 4th. Some states may have different requirements like CA, but most have the above guidelines for determining a lemon.
Just so you know, just because Apple replaces the part and covers it for at least 90 days or the rest of your warranty, it doesn't let them off the hook. If you have had a computer repaired and you still have issues, you can ask Applecare to replace your computer. Just document everything and make sure you speak to a senior advisor. Be cordial to them, remember, they work for Apple and didn't have anything to do with the computers design or the program to repair the computer. If they feel that you have a compelling reason to replace the computer, they have the power to do so.
But, what are they going to replace it with? Until there is a newer model, it would basically be the same thing if they repair or replace it.
In a way this is all the fault of the Mac Fan Boys rather than Apple. (Yeh! That's YOU!)
They pushed Apple to push the limits: Thinner, Lighter, Faster.
But, who pushed for that? Personally, I've been complaining for quite some time over Apple's 'thinner' obsession... and have been labeled a troll for doing so. And, I have lots of ideas of what could be done with the extra space... like more ports, bigger battery, better cooling systems, etc.
For a pro 15" laptop, I'll happily go back to the mid-2000s design with modern components and ports and a better cooling system. Doing that would actually make it a true pro portable desktop replacement. I'd order one today... but as I've been told so many times by the fanboys, I'm no longer Apple's target market.
Anyone with half a brain realizes good design involves tradeoffs. Sure, I love thinner, lighter, faster, so long as it doesn't push those tradeoffs into poor usability, reliability, etc. I thought Apple's industrial design team were supposed to be the best in the world? Any competent industrial designer understands this.
Mike Wuerthele said: The obsession with thinner is not "ours," but it is shared by far and away the non-techie. Conservatively, they outnumber us by at least 10 to 1.
If you need confirmation, go hang out at your local Apple retail store for an hour.
That's might be the cause, but it isn't a good excuse. What that proves, if true, is that Apple is no longer making the best stuff, but letting the marketing drive the ship, or the tail wag the dog, etc.
Soli said: 2) I've seen no evidence that shows that it's not possible for Mac notebooks to have better keyboards at their current thickness.
Yes, that's a good point, whether it be this keyboard or port elimination, etc. I think it is just poor design and decision making.
rogifan_new said: Hmm...I’m not sure which “Mac Fan Boys” were obsessed with ultra thin and light laptops. Certainly not the Marco Arment’s of the world.
No, but as Mike says, the average consumer is. But... that goes back to my 'pro' point... is this thing designed for pros or the average consumer (with money... i.e.: fashion).
lorin schultz said: I don't think my wife or I have ever used the camera on our Macs. Even once. Do other people use them regularly?
Not very often. For one, I get the feeling most of these machines are 'docked' most of the time... which is why the keyboard design has gotten as far as it has (i.e.: some large percentage of users don't even use it)... but also means you need an external web cam. But, second, the built-in camera isn't that great, so anyone serious about it probably adds an external one anyway.
Late 2017 MBP owner. Zero issues with keyboard, travel with it everyday, and I actually love the keyboard. Obviously, I’m in the minority’s here on AI, but they must be doing something right for everyone else buying them.
Perhaps there is s fundamental flaw in the keyboard design. I can’t say. I’m also a neat freak when it comes to keeping my keyboard clean. If you’re a slob and use your keyboard like a dinner plate, then few keyboards will resolve last.
i crack up with people recommending Thinkpads. Sure, they’re solid, but they’re like bricks. No thank you.
This is the 5th MBx I’ve owned. Still the best one I’ve owned yet.
i crack up with people recommending Thinkpads. Sure, they’re solid, but they’re like bricks. No thank you.
This is the 5th MBx I’ve owned. Still the best one I’ve owned yet.
I suppose you haven't work with a Thinkpad's in years if you call them brick. The X1 Carbon is lighter than the MBP 13", without losing the ports and it has what many people call the best keyboard in the market. They even are spill resistant. The 15" models are a little bit heavier than the MBP, but without compromising ports or keyboard quality. Maybe the MBP 2017 is the best one you ever owned. But I'm not sure the MBP 2017 is better than the competition.
danvm said: I suppose you haven't work with a Thinkpad's in years if you call them brick. The X1 Carbon is lighter than the MBP 13", without losing the ports and it has what many people call the best keyboard in the market. They even are spill resistant. The 15" models are a little bit heavier than the MBP, but without compromising ports or keyboard quality. Maybe the MBP 2017 is the best one you ever owned. But I'm not sure the MBP 2017 is better than the competition.
Yeah, I don't think some of we Mac people realize how much at least the higher end of the PC industry has caught up. Aside from reading various reviews on machines like the Dell XPS, when my wife brought home her new Lenovo Miix (work issued), it really hit me. We've been in a bubble. While I'm sure many of the PC laptops still suck, it's quite clear there are a number of them, now, that don't.
Late 2017 MBP owner. Zero issues with keyboard, travel with it everyday, and I actually love the keyboard. Obviously, I’m in the minority’s here on AI, but they must be doing something right for everyone else buying them.
Perhaps there is s fundamental flaw in the keyboard design. I can’t say. I’m also a neat freak when it comes to keeping my keyboard clean. If you’re a slob and use your keyboard like a dinner plate, then few keyboards will resolve last.
i crack up with people recommending Thinkpads. Sure, they’re solid, but they’re like bricks. No thank you.
This is the 5th MBx I’ve owned. Still the best one I’ve owned yet.
Thanks! You illustrated my point well!
You travel with your Mac daily -- so you value thin and light.
Then you go on to denigrate "people recommending Thinkpads" because, although they're nearly indestructible, their built like a "brick".
My point was: different people have different needs and priorities. Some, like you, value thin and light above all else. Others value reliability,flexibility and functionality above all else. (Others want it to do both equally well -- but that isn't fully realistic)
Unfortunately, it seems the Mac division of Apple is only serving the thin and light crowd. I think they can serve both camps - but not with the same machine.
k2kw said: I imagine that there will be new MacBooks and MBPs soon with the keyboards fixed (talk about embarrassing if it isn't).
I was going to say that this admission by Apple probably pushes back the release of the next generation of MacBooks by a few months.
Well I hope this means they may have found/solved the problem in the 2016/2017 models and was implementing a fix for the 2018 models which may have pushed things back.
2009-2011s Solder issues were weighing on my mind for this, and that hunch proved itself.
If you have a 2015 Macbook, you have 4 years from the original purchase date. The program started 3 years after the issue, leaving you with a one year window for it to conveniently fall in, or else you're still boned, unless you already forked out for a replacement out of pocket.
4 years for a new purchase isn't /bad/, but I'd still be pissed if my $3K 15" rMBP purchased today were to be out of support for jammed keyboards 4 years out, otherwise costing a 700 dollar top case to get working again. A large part of spending that much on a Mac is feeling that it can last you longer.
And just like the solder issues, you're only getting replacements with parts that still have the issue, leaving you with a ticking time bomb feeling...
I don't hate Apple. But I DO hate the keyboard and the trackpad (more on the latter in a minute). Years of purchasing tons of Apple, got the 15" by spending the most ever and very disappointed. Some issues with short battery time unless I make very dim and barely use. Quiet typing while on a work call is not possible. Some keys have ceased to function for a time, and the space bar as well. They are working again for now. The trackpad is HUGE. Great for certain kinds of work. I mostly type. Brush the trackpad a bit and you have moved to another area, or typed over a paragraph. If not for the Command-Z I would have had to sell it and get an MBA. You can set many things on the trackpad, but not the active part. I never imagined I would have to be as careful as I have to be. I type better on my MacBook 12", use when travel, than my 15". So, overall, would not recommend and would not buy again without a serious trial. And, honestly, I would sell it, but being honest would have to tell them that other than the screen size and processing power I hate it--not ideal for sale.
GeorgeBMac said: My point was: different people have different needs and priorities. Some, like you, value thin and light above all else. Others value reliability,flexibility and functionality above all else. (Others want it to do both equally well -- but that isn't fully realistic)
Unfortunately, it seems the Mac division of Apple is only serving the thin and light crowd. I think they can serve both camps - but not with the same machine.
Exactly, and this applies across the product lines. While Apple can't make every conceivable configuration, they could certainly do a better job at serving a more broad range. This is what I mean when I'm talking about pie-chart thinking or marketing driven design. It seems they have determined what the biggest sellers are, or the highest profit-makers, and then design to those criteria. The 'older' Apple tended to make the best stuff targeted at a range of customers... though some might argue leaving out the more average consumer.
That maybe made sense back then, as they had quite limited resources. But, given their scale now, it makes no sense that they can't do so. That leaves an ol' Apple guy like me wondering why if they can, they aren't.
Wow, reading some of these comments, I had to reply again. I hope we have not come to the point where we compare Macs to Porsches. Porsches are bought by people who don’t look at money, and can buy a new one every 3 years. I pay more for Macs partly justifying it by their lasting longer and being built better. When I feel that buying a Mac means I can show off by buying an expensive item without corresponding increase in quality and reliability, that’s when I’ll be done with Apple.
Also: when you see Apple’s chief designer starting to taunt others, you should expect to see Apple start to abdicate their design responsibilities. Of course, they’ll call it “designing themselves into a corner”. More like “all that success went to our heads”.
Comments
If you need confirmation, go hang out at your local Apple retail store for an hour.
mrc's comment looks like a post hoc fallacy, to me.
There is some debate about notches on laptops but I wonder if a 4 mm bezel could eventually house a camera array on a laptop without a notch. For casual use, I think a nostril cam is workable for most people except when you want to type while using it, and am sure that, given the current options, most would gladly go for the minimal bezels over thick bezels with top mounted webcam (seeing as there are huge amounts of people who have them permanently taped over anyway).
I don't think my wife or I have ever used the camera on our Macs. Even once. Do other people use them regularly?
Professionally I work with larger institutions who all have dedicated call rooms. I never need to use them myself, though. I have never seen professional user that didn't have the webcam taped over either.
A few who work for multinationals from home use standalone webcams.
Just wanted to highlight that out, as it is a very good tip... or maybe even having a spare USB keyboard/mouse around just in case.
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question (or at least $700). I'm hoping you'd get at least the 2017 revision (so, if you have a 2016, it might be better), but maybe Apple will create a v3 repair part?
Part of the problem might be the redefinition of 'pro' and Apple's shift in target market. Maybe the new market just don't care about durability that much, and if pro is for 'make money with' rather than 'professional quality' then it wouldn't matter in that regard as much either.
People who buy Ferraris are a different bunch than buy Toyotas. Apple was historically, IMO, more like Porsche (fast, street-able, relatively reliable).
Maybe < 50% is very small?
They can't do that so much anymore, IMO. First, there is now social media and such which amplifies user-dissatisfaction like it does in any other area. But, second, being silent only only works when you're what Apple previously was.... ahead on technology, best of the best, with a cult-like following, etc. (and even then we didn't like it). As Apple shifts more to any-ol' consumer electronics giant, they will have to start changing their ways.
But, who pushed for that? Personally, I've been complaining for quite some time over Apple's 'thinner' obsession... and have been labeled a troll for doing so. And, I have lots of ideas of what could be done with the extra space... like more ports, bigger battery, better cooling systems, etc.
For a pro 15" laptop, I'll happily go back to the mid-2000s design with modern components and ports and a better cooling system. Doing that would actually make it a true pro portable desktop replacement. I'd order one today... but as I've been told so many times by the fanboys, I'm no longer Apple's target market.
Anyone with half a brain realizes good design involves tradeoffs. Sure, I love thinner, lighter, faster, so long as it doesn't push those tradeoffs into poor usability, reliability, etc. I thought Apple's industrial design team were supposed to be the best in the world? Any competent industrial designer understands this.
Yes, that's a good point, whether it be this keyboard or port elimination, etc. I think it is just poor design and decision making.
No, but as Mike says, the average consumer is. But... that goes back to my 'pro' point... is this thing designed for pros or the average consumer (with money... i.e.: fashion).
Not very often. For one, I get the feeling most of these machines are 'docked' most of the time... which is why the keyboard design has gotten as far as it has (i.e.: some large percentage of users don't even use it)... but also means you need an external web cam. But, second, the built-in camera isn't that great, so anyone serious about it probably adds an external one anyway.
Perhaps there is s fundamental flaw in the keyboard design. I can’t say. I’m also a neat freak when it comes to keeping my keyboard clean. If you’re a slob and use your keyboard like a dinner plate, then few keyboards will resolve last.
i crack up with people recommending Thinkpads. Sure, they’re solid, but they’re like bricks. No thank you.
This is the 5th MBx I’ve owned. Still the best one I’ve owned yet.
Aside from reading various reviews on machines like the Dell XPS, when my wife brought home her new Lenovo Miix (work issued), it really hit me. We've been in a bubble. While I'm sure many of the PC laptops still suck, it's quite clear there are a number of them, now, that don't.
Unfortunately, it seems the Mac division of Apple is only serving the thin and light crowd. I think they can serve both camps - but not with the same machine.
This keyboard is rubbish and not fit for purpose.
If you have a 2015 Macbook, you have 4 years from the original purchase date. The program started 3 years after the issue, leaving you with a one year window for it to conveniently fall in, or else you're still boned, unless you already forked out for a replacement out of pocket.
4 years for a new purchase isn't /bad/, but I'd still be pissed if my $3K 15" rMBP purchased today were to be out of support for jammed keyboards 4 years out, otherwise costing a 700 dollar top case to get working again. A large part of spending that much on a Mac is feeling that it can last you longer.
And just like the solder issues, you're only getting replacements with parts that still have the issue, leaving you with a ticking time bomb feeling...
That maybe made sense back then, as they had quite limited resources. But, given their scale now, it makes no sense that they can't do so. That leaves an ol' Apple guy like me wondering why if they can, they aren't.
Also: when you see Apple’s chief designer starting to taunt others, you should expect to see Apple start to abdicate their design responsibilities. Of course, they’ll call it “designing themselves into a corner”. More like “all that success went to our heads”.