Graphic 7 minute audio of Jamal Khashoggi's murder again linked to journalist's Apple Watc...

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  • Reply 21 of 49
    cpsro said:
    cpsro said:
    If Khashoggi had upgraded to an iPhone XS and Watch 5, the longer range of Bluetooth 5 might have allowed communication through the embassy walls. Unobstructed, the range is up to 800 feet.
    Max range has little to do with penetrative power. BT5 is still low energy. Even modest RF shielding, let alone the industrial-grade in embassies, would have stopped it.

    It's all possible. It's just not even remotely probable.
    Do we know the consulate has RF shielding anywhere/everywhere within, including the consul's office? The surrounding wall appears thick, but the property and building are not large and the building is taller than the wall, as judged from satellite and street views. When Khashoggi's body was removed from the consulate, there might have been an opportunity to sync with his iPhone.
    RF shielding everywhere is a very safe assumption to make, as it is easy and relatively cheap. I also find it hard to consider that if you're going to dismember a body, that you're somehow going to miss the guy's Apple Watch.

    Like I said, it's possible. Just not probable.
    Khashogg’s fiance stayed outside the consulate for many hours, the watch may have synced when the body was removed. Horrible.
  • Reply 22 of 49
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    "Drumpf" is far from the the first (or the worst). Every US president in the past few decades has sucked up to them, most certainly both the Bushes and Obama.

    We didn't get into bed with them only since January 2017. Be factual, please. And, no need to make it political.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 23 of 49
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    The writer was (is?) a Saudi Arabian, not an American. The US doesn’t have dominion over every country on Earth and their citizens. Get over it.

    Get over it? Dude. Has your allegiance to Trump totally blinded you to what the United States stands for? The guy was a Naturalized US citizen. A journalist with The Washington Post. His kids are US citizens. Trump is kissing the Crown Princes ring. Have you forgotten that 15 of the 19 terrorists from 9/11 were Saudis? Saudi Arabia was Trumps first international trip abroad as President. He is on video bragging about how he loves the Saudis cause they buy so much property from him. Something stinks here. I am curious how you will spin this when video & audio of the torture and killing go public. Will you say fake news? Will you deny reality?
    His nationality is Saudi Arabian:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi

    He's not a US citizen.
    Ugh. Let it go dude. Your xenophobia is showing. He LIVES in the US. It’s his home. He has children who are US citizens. He is a journalist with the Washington Post. What are you trying to say? Because he once came from another country, his cold blooded murder doesn’t matter? Where is your humanity? Your sense of justice? 
    Diana88_
  • Reply 24 of 49
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,252member
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    The writer was (is?) a Saudi Arabian, not an American. The US doesn’t have dominion over every country on Earth and their citizens. Get over it.
    Nonsense — he’s a US resident, journalist for a US publication, employed by a US company. That puts hs torture and murder by a foreign sovereign right into our wheelhouse. Your “not our problem!” position is entirely based on who you voted for last election. 

    Crazy times when Americans are more loyal to foreign kings in the middle east than their fellow residents, denizens, and neighbors. 

    And these guys whined when Obama bowed. LOL
    edited October 2018 larrya
  • Reply 25 of 49
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    "Drumpf" is far from the the first (or the worst). Every US president in the past few decades has sucked up to them, most certainly both the Bushes and Obama.

    We didn't get into bed with them only since January 2017. Be factual, please. And, no need to make it political.
    It IS political. And yes, I know other US presidents have sucked up to SA....but Trump is currently president. And he is going above and beyond the usual suck up-ness. 
    StrangeDayslarryaMacPro
  • Reply 26 of 49
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,252member
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    "Drumpf" is far from the the first (or the worst). Every US president in the past few decades has sucked up to them, most certainly both the Bushes and Obama.

    We didn't get into bed with them only since January 2017. Be factual, please. And, no need to make it political.
    It IS political. And yes, I know other US presidents have sucked up to SA....but Trump is currently president. And he is going above and beyond the usual suck up-ness. 
    Exactly. The whatabouttism is irrelevant. 
  • Reply 27 of 49
    RTMRTM Posts: 6member
    "Obviously, RF emissions control is a big concern for embassy security staff, and a big avenue of exploitation by agencies wanting to listen in. To this end, embassies are heavily shielded against radio frequency emissions, both coming in or exiting the facility....

    And, if Khashoggi was allowed to connect to the consulate Wi-Fi, that would be one of the largest breaches of embassy RF and data security ever recorded. This seems especially improbable."

    I'm not sure why this keeps on being said - because it's factually incorrect (and laughable).

    The vast majority of embassies and consulates around the world by most countries do not have such RF shielding for the full building. Seriously, they don't.  Most are housed in buildings built decades ago, and even the newest of facilities by most countries don't have such shielding. Typically any sort of shielding would be reserved for a SCIF, or basically a room/place where classified conversations could occur. And even shielding that is rare in most cases - instead most diplomatic and even most military installations rely more on policies than blocking of signals. It's plausible that a room for a given staff member would be shielded, but again that's rare - and likely even more so for Saudi's consulate.  The fact that there's an audio recording at all tells you right there that signals weren't likely blocked. Because whether that came from the individuals watch or other signals intelligence, it's a good indicator there's no RF blocking (unless the transmission from watch to phone occurred during the short timeframe outside).

    Remember: Blocking of signals is problematic for embassy staff themselves, as they too utilize cell phones in most public places in the embassy - one only needs to go into any number of nations embassies to see that (including US Embassies/Consulates, and Saudi Embassy/Consulates in a variety of nations). Don't believe me? No problem - simply find an embassy/consulate of your favored nation in a city closest to you and schedule an appointment for a visa. Watch how many employees are on cellular phones inside.

    anantksundaram
  • Reply 28 of 49
    glnfglnf Posts: 34member
    Well, there are a few points worth mentioning. The watch could have been linked to the phone outside the embassy with personal hotspot (WiFi) on. Still not a strong connection but much stronger than Bluetooth. If the Turkish government is claiming to have audio recordings of the atrocity that is likely going to be the case. It would be too obvious and embarrassing if recording would not actually exist. The existence is easy to proof to foreign intelligent services and recordings are next to impossible to fake. So why come up with an audio recording if you don't have one? But the main issue here is the motive of the killers. If Saudi Arabia would have wanted to get rid of Khashoggi it would have had endless opportunities to do so discreetly. But that's not the point. The point is to kill a known critic of the regime as a openly as possible. (Similar to the Russian attack on Skripal in England with ultra reare Novitschok poison.) It sends two messages: 1) You signal all your potential critics and dissidents that they are not save from you and that you are willing to kill them anytime, anywhere and at any cost. 2) You show the world how immensely powerful you are. The more obvious Russia got away with Skripal, and Putin personally made sure Russia aroused as much suspicion as possible, the more it shows the power of the regime. If the Saudi prince can have Khashoggi killed in Turkey in an Embassy in full view of the world and no country really reacts, than he has gained the absolution to commit any atrocity he wants. He becomes the ultimate ruler. If the west let's him get away with this, we (and of course the Saudi population and the Arab world) will have to pay a high price for decades to come. So, to come back to the recordings, to the Saudi regime potential recordings aren't necessarily a problem. In the opposite, if recordings prove the involvement of the regime and the Saudi prince and he still gets away with it, all the better for him. That's as fu***d as politics sometimes goes. Usually the politics of dictatorships and regimes, but Europe and the US are currently at a high risk of playing along. 
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 29 of 49
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    "Drumpf" is far from the the first (or the worst). Every US president in the past few decades has sucked up to them, most certainly both the Bushes and Obama.

    We didn't get into bed with them only since January 2017. Be factual, please. And, no need to make it political.
    It IS political. And yes, I know other US presidents have sucked up to SA....but Trump is currently president. And he is going above and beyond the usual suck up-ness. 
    Exactly. The whatabouttism is irrelevant. 
    Why is the whataboutism irrelevant? You really think the Saudis got to where they are in their brazenness because Donald Trump — someone, frankly I couldn’t care less for — became President in January 2017? 

    That has to be one of the most vacuous talking points, and usually made by folks who are incapable of constructing a halfway decent counter-argument.
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 30 of 49

    glnf said:
    Well, there are a few points worth mentioning. The watch could have been linked to the phone outside the embassy with personal hotspot (WiFi) on. Still not a strong connection but much stronger than Bluetooth. If the Turkish government is claiming to have audio recordings of the atrocity that is likely going to be the case. It would be too obvious and embarrassing if recording would not actually exist. The existence is easy to proof to foreign intelligent services and recordings are next to impossible to fake. So why come up with an audio recording if you don't have one? But the main issue here is the motive of the killers. If Saudi Arabia would have wanted to get rid of Khashoggi it would have had endless opportunities to do so discreetly. But that's not the point. The point is to kill a known critic of the regime as a openly as possible. (Similar to the Russian attack on Skripal in England with ultra reare Novitschok poison.) It sends two messages: 1) You signal all your potential critics and dissidents that they are not save from you and that you are willing to kill them anytime, anywhere and at any cost. 2) You show the world how immensely powerful you are. The more obvious Russia got away with Skripal, and Putin personally made sure Russia aroused as much suspicion as possible, the more it shows the power of the regime. If the Saudi prince can have Khashoggi killed in Turkey in an Embassy in full view of the world and no country really reacts, than he has gained the absolution to commit any atrocity he wants. He becomes the ultimate ruler. If the west let's him get away with this, we (and of course the Saudi population and the Arab world) will have to pay a high price for decades to come. So, to come back to the recordings, to the Saudi regime potential recordings aren't necessarily a problem. In the opposite, if recordings prove the involvement of the regime and the Saudi prince and he still gets away with it, all the better for him. That's as fu***d as politics sometimes goes. Usually the politics of dictatorships and regimes, but Europe and the US are currently at a high risk of playing along. 
    This is a truly superb, sober post. ^^^
  • Reply 31 of 49
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,706member
    Not a superb post at all.  It isnt thought through. If the saudis wanted to send a message, they would have done it on the street. Maybe even in America, if they dared.  Very publically. Alternatively, and more their style, they would have kidnapped him, tried him, then publically beheaded him in a public square in Rihayd.

    They aren’t Russians. They aren’t mobsters. They aren’t CIA. They are Saudies.

    As for for calls for America to do something, here is a bit of advice:

    Stop. Being. The. World’s. Policeman.

    Everyone just ends up hating you for it.


  • Reply 32 of 49
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,706member
    The only thing Trump should be doing is getting those nukes out of reach of Erdogan.
  • Reply 33 of 49
    entropys said:

    They aren’t Russians. They aren’t mobsters. They aren’t CIA. They are Saudies.
    Yeah. That clarifies it.

    /rolleyes 
  • Reply 34 of 49
    glnfglnf Posts: 34member
    entropys said:

    As for for calls for America to do something, here is a bit of advice:

    Stop. Being. The. World’s. Policeman.

    Everyone just ends up hating you for it.

    Generally speaking I agree with you. So the US should as well stop using Saudi Arabia as their go-to deputy sheriff in the Middle East. And what about putting the massive arms deals on hold for a start? For Trump selling arms is just a jolly good deal, for Saudi Arabia it is much more. It legitimises the regime and its politics. 
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 35 of 49
    EpiEpi Posts: 2member
    I don't get it. How do you know he simply didn't drop one of these babies in the embassy reception (perhaps close to a window), or in the lavatory area, prior to entering the Consuls office where he was seized?
    And what about the possibility he bought a second, or even third, Iphone and carried it concealed on his body when entering the embassy?


  • Reply 36 of 49
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,550administrator
    Epi said:
    I don't get it. How do you know he simply didn't drop one of these babies in the embassy reception (perhaps close to a window), or in the lavatory area, prior to entering the Consuls office where he was seized?
    And what about the possibility he bought a second, or even third, Iphone and carried it concealed on his body when entering the embassy?


    I don't generally carry around an LTE travel router to drop in a window to go get a document from a government building, do you?

    The guy wasn't there to do an interview, he was there to pick up marriage paperwork.

    Could he have? Sure, but man is it unlikely. It doesn't pass the common sense check.
  • Reply 37 of 49
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,505member
    Epi said:
    I don't get it. How do you know he simply didn't drop one of these babies in the embassy reception (perhaps close to a window), or in the lavatory area, prior to entering the Consuls office where he was seized?
    And what about the possibility he bought a second, or even third, Iphone and carried it concealed on his body when entering the embassy?


    I don't generally carry around an LTE travel router to drop in a window to go get a document from a government building, do you?

    The guy wasn't there to do an interview, he was there to pick up marriage paperwork.

    Could he have? Sure, but man is it unlikely. It doesn't pass the common sense check.
    To be fair you might if you were a seasoned journalist (he did interview bin Laden when he was on the run) and thought your life could be in danger.  That said I think the idea this is a cover for the usual Embassy bugging is more likely.
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 38 of 49
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,294member
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    The writer was (is?) a Saudi Arabian, not an American. The US doesn’t have dominion over every country on Earth and their citizens. Get over it.
    Nonsense — he’s a US resident, journalist for a US publication, employed by a US company. That puts hs torture and murder by a foreign sovereign right into our wheelhouse. Your “not our problem!” position is entirely based on who you voted for last election. 

    Crazy times when Americans are more loyal to foreign kings in the middle east than their fellow residents, denizens, and neighbors. 

    And these guys whined when Obama bowed. LOL
    It's pretty irrelevant he worked for an American company. The bottom line is Kashoggi is a Saudi citizen. He's only been in the U.S. for a little over a year on a work visa. The U.S. has no jurisdiction over him whatsoever. Now if he was an actual American citizen, the U.S. consulate in Istanbul would have gotten involved immediately as would have the FBI. So if you set aside the back story of his murder, this really has nothing to do with the U.S.

    Having said that, I'm not implying I'm pro Saudi Arabia, just making the point this really is out of our jurisdiction. I'm mixed at what we or other countries should do. One big problem is it would be hard to cut ties with Saudi Arabia since they are a critical ally when it comes to issues in the Middle East. I think we would also be hypocritical if we do something against Saudi Arabia and not other countries. Same type of thing where dissidents of the government are being murdered is happening in Egypt, China, etc yet there is no worldwide outrage over that. 
  • Reply 39 of 49
    EpiEpi Posts: 2member

    I don't generally carry around an LTE travel router to drop in a window to go get a document from a government building, do you?

    The guy wasn't there to do an interview, he was there to pick up marriage paperwork.

    Could he have? Sure, but man is it unlikely. It doesn't pass the common sense check.
    I think he was very well aware of what kind of people he had to deal with, and that he was on their turf once he entered the embassy. Don't forget he fled the country a year ago. I think it's reasonable to believe he took every precaution he possibly could. I mean, having the watch in recording mode would certainly indicate he was prepared for trouble. And if he had the watch in recording mode he would of course want to make sure the recording would reach the outside world. So the idea of a router isn't as far fetched as you might think. I'm not sure how one of those watches communicates with an Iphone, maybe he could have dropped an Iphone configured as an Access Point in the window?

    But of course it could just be a cover story for the Turks bugging the embassy. Really smart of them. You can't actually prove he didn't bring along a router or similar equipment since both he and his belongings have disappeared... And by launching such a theory the Turks can avoid being accused of bugging the embassy.
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 40 of 49
    From the New York Times: "They severed his fingers during an interrogation and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings published in the Turkish news media on Wednesday. It was all over within a few minutes, the recordings suggested."

    This whole episode is simply beyond disgusting. Beyond reason.

    A bunch of savages.
    And yet Drumpf is standing by his Saudi buddies. After all, according to him they buy millions & millions of dollars of his properties. 
    The writer was (is?) a Saudi Arabian, not an American. The US doesn’t have dominion over every country on Earth and their citizens. Get over it.

    Get over it? Dude. Has your allegiance to Trump totally blinded you to what the United States stands for? The guy was a Naturalized US citizen. A journalist with The Washington Post. His kids are US citizens. Trump is kissing the Crown Princes ring. Have you forgotten that 15 of the 19 terrorists from 9/11 were Saudis? Saudi Arabia was Trumps first international trip abroad as President. He is on video bragging about how he loves the Saudis cause they buy so much property from him. Something stinks here. I am curious how you will spin this when video & audio of the torture and killing go public. Will you say fake news? Will you deny reality?
    His nationality is Saudi Arabian:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi

    He's not a US citizen.
    Ugh. Let it go dude. Your xenophobia is showing. He LIVES in the US. It’s his home. He has children who are US citizens. He is a journalist with the Washington Post. What are you trying to say? Because he once came from another country, his cold blooded murder doesn’t matter? Where is your humanity? Your sense of justice? 
    I was quoting Wikipedia, you moron. He is/was a citizen of Saudi Arabia. 
    edited October 2018 cgWerks
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