>Hundreds' of TREG testers already existed at a time when Waytools was publicly posting that they were just beginning to contact customers to test.
Not what what I said
>'Hundreds' of TREG testers, presumably some portion of which were tech-enthusiasts and generally good natured geeks like everyone else who originally ordered from Waytools and posted on their forums, never once posted on the Waytools forums about their experience with the keyboard.
They are mostly people who never were on the forum to begin with. So why would they bother to show up later if they got in Treg?
Btw, at least one or two testers who posted on the forum after getting in Treg were not members before. So I guess that covers the idea that “none” of the non-forum members ever showed up.
>Your only 'proof' of the word 'hundreds' is your fake assertion that you heard it said, or that someone on a forum referred to it.
And other Treg members. But I know, anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just called a liar.
>Do you think that makes Waytools look better?
Oh, I don’t care about your issue with how many treggers there are compared to total orders. I just found it fascinating that you were giving such precise figures when you don’t know enough to actually do so.
>How stupid and incompetent are these people?
When when it comes to the engineering and tech, they are brilliant. Just because you don’t comprehend how complicated - and new - this tech is so you think it should be done much sooner doesn’t mean they are stupid.
Im sure they’ve made mistakes since pretty much everyone does but hindsight is 20/20. But it’s worth pointing out that people back in 2015 were saying within 6 months there would be a Chinese knockoff. Surprise. It still hasn’t happened. Because it is new and very complicated tech.
Wow I leave you all alone for a day and the thread hits 461... 463...
Oh, I like this, but some of it I'll have to explain to others who wouldn't be familiar.
Well yeah, someone is exploring you red herring, of course you do. So briefly as I am aware of an upper character limit.:
1. Anyone can challenge. That includes me. Are you unaware of that?
If I am highlighting the point of course I am aware, and by running with the vagueness I highlighted you demonstrate my point.
2. Doesn't have to be anyone in particular, but it can include me. Are you unaware of that?
If I am highlighting the point of course I am aware, and by running with the vagueness I highlighted you demonstrate my point.
3. This is the one I need to explain to others.
This might be good...
You see, over on Reddit, people like to talk about me. They did it before I even joined Reddit. They did it after I joined. And they continue to do it after they banned me from their little subreddit (which happened immediately after I made my first two responses to posts ABOUT ME - because I was supposedly "off topic". Go figure.
In brief: You have more than one account on Reddit, you broke the Reddit TOS by evading a ban by creating sock puppet accounts at least 3 times that I know of, those accounts are subject to a permanent suspension from Reddit. This suspension is not a moderation action but an Admin action.
People responded to your fluff on WTF on reddit because they where account banned, shadow banned, or post restricted by WT on WTF. To paraphrase your earlier point: Did you expect to go unchallenged?
So, when I get posted about, I choose to respond (cause, meet effect). But I can't post publicly where they are talking about me.
Ironically that is why the Subreddit r/textblade was created, because people could not respond to thing that were being said about them on WTF, nor comment on things they disagreed with. You complain that you are banned because "yadda, yadda, 2 posts" but you were allowed opportunities to show that you could post in a normal and reasonable manner. You squandered those opportunities because you have not learnt to play nicely with others.
If you remember I set up another sub, so that we could discuss your points keyboard to keyboard, as it were. My hope had been to see if you could maintain some posting discipline and if that were the case re-admit you to the textblade sub with a forum full of evidence showing you could and would behave. After a few months that new sub had become an example of every reason why your ban could not be lifted culminating in it's closure following a TOS violation. I take responsibility for closing it, and ending your chances of having your ban from r/textblade lifted, and ban which I did not place. The risk of further TOS violation was too great at that point and I had the personal safety of other users to consider.
It's all good fun until DBK shows you how far he will go. But. that is the past, and my hope is that no one is truly irredeemable. Otherwise I would not waste my time in these pointless discussions with you.
So instead I send a private message to the person who does it. Then, when it is Rolanbek, he used to send a private message back complaining that I'm sending him private messages,
Yes, I have repeatedly said that I find your constant PM's unwanted and harassing in nature, yet you still send them. I don't read them anymore, and haven't done for quite a while, they just get pinged away automatically.
in spite of the fact that I've told him many times that if he doesn't talk about me publicly, I won't be responding privately.
To paraphrase your earlier point: Did you expect to go unchallenged? You could always post your responses on Macrumors.....Oh wait you're suspended from there Well how about WTF? You have the floor somewhat at WTF, and you have the protection of WTF, so they are unlikely to ban your account unless you go completely off the rails. You can easily respond publicly there. In fact as the comment of yours that is being commented on is generally on WTF that seems a hugely appropriate place to respond.
You have to admit, it takes a lot of gall to talk about someone in public (negatively) and then complain about a private response!
You have to admit that it take a lot of gall to send private messages to the moderator of a place you are banned from in part due to your public harassment of other users, (not me) for years after your ban.
Oh, they can include whatever they want.
This is not for you to decide
And I can choose to respond to it.
And you can choose to not respond to it.
It is only if they don't want something responded to, they shouldn't say it. Simple.
A statement which attempts to absolves you for your lack of control.
And then it just gets kinda weird.
Not not really. Waah, waah waaahhh use of emotive language;
Well, weirder. I wrote:
REEEEEEEE: argument by assertion
> "Their choice to make". And your response?:
Yes, you have said unambiguously: "here is what you must do or face these specific consequences"
ultimatum /ʌltɪˈmeɪtəm/ noun a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations.
Moving on:
What a non-surprise,
Waah, waah waaahhh use of emotive language;
two people reacting to clear statement that people can choose how to post and they respond with comments about it being an ultimatum, censorship and, in this case, "control"
Ummm.. take the hint.
I'm simply
Nope, every statement that follows this DBK phrase needs scrutiny. It's never "simply" anything.
pointing out that it is absurd to post something and then complain if someone responds to it.
Ok then tell that to WT, on WTF. "Hey WT you are being absurd" or is this one of those things that only applies to people you argue with?
However Shame, shame, shame it's a strawman, I am saying that if you politely ask someone to stop PM'ing you, the model response should not be "I can't control myself, so you stop posting".
They can still post it, but they don't get to set rules about whether people can respond to it.
Shame, shame, shame it's a strawman No one is trying to control whether you respond just where you respond. Some of us are asking you to think "should I respond" a little more.
They can complain about it all they want. Won't matter though.
We know, because ultimatum.
moving on:
Maybe those people who post things and then complain that someone responds to what they wrote are the ones who need to control themselves. The idea that they say they have the right to say whatever they want, but then object when some uses the same right to respond is very strange. They can complain, but they’ll just look foolish.
Nyan-Na the tu quoque fallacy,
moving on:
Good description, but only if your post.
This is an example of what we are talking about when we mention your lack of self awareness. Next are you going to tell me you're rubber and i'm glue?
moving on:
You are always free to point out examples so we can see how they hold up.
Normally pretty well when I do it. You see every time you flee from a discussion point, or fail respond only in part to a post (my response to the remainder of this post is that argument is between you and TBD) You are leaving those points unchallenged.
For example I asked you for evidence from this thread of you specifically defending me in this thread. Another day has passed and you simply flee from the argument.
I could start keeping score like I used to on MacRumors, you know in case you forget the trail of abandoned positions, you used to love that.
Where do you stand on WT lying about a financial transaction, it has been asked before. Especially after they admitted in this thread that they had not even checked whether what they accused someone of doing was even true before hurling that accusation out into the public?
Moving on: I have nothing to say about post 451, it seems candid, wholesome, and contentious.
Moving on: 453 is between you and TBD, I do have comments but little time or inclination to get into that one.
Moving on
1. Like I said, companies rarely post on sites other than their own.
Shame, shame, shame it's a strawman. The concern stated that the started to post and then stopped not that the posted at all. You even offer an opinion relevant to Smurf's point by following up with:
They probably should have not posted here at all.
See.
Yet I ALSO said they should post more on their own forum.
It's true that this is the case I have seen you ask, but it is not relevant to Smurf's "cut and run" point. Many posters here cannot follow them back to WTF, and posting on WTF does nothing to clarify the position left here.
for example there is still no response here as to whether the Textblades on the pallets seen in the article and described as "finished" were in fact finished. I point this out in the wake of WT admitting that they had no idea what the feature list for the product was going to be 2015, when they said it was production ready, and had been selling Textblades for over a year before starting to ask users "what do you need this product to do". The finished or unfinished question is valid, because 'production ready' is not the same as needs a focus group to decide on final design and features.
2. Except what I said was:
not interested in that bit at the moment.
Moving on: 457 mostly you and TBD tipping and hitting, but
1. Because when Treg started, we were told there were "hundreds".
We were told production ready in 2015. Is was told I would have a physical product in my hands in Mar 2015. Considering that often what we are told by WT does not always bear up to scrutiny, this bears scrutiny. Carry on.
Moving on: Actually I'm going to stop there as the posting is degenerating to the point of that I wonder how long this thread has got.
So, see you all tomorrow, if the thread is still open that is.
TextBladeDenied said: Ya think? Par for the course with Mark Knighton. Why dont you go to their forum and click on the 'Latest' button up at the top. Then scroll down the page until you get back to 2015 (it actually only takes about a minute as there really is not that much content on their forum). Then start reading. Take care to read the many, many, many posts from Waytools claiming shipping was pending tomorrow/next week/a few weeks from 'now' (back in 2015/2016/2017/2018). After you have absorbed all of those blatant lies, come back here and tell us how you feel.
I understand the feeling pretty well. Been following-up since the beginning. Not new to this. (I can't even remember with what phone / iPad I intended to use it with originally. Maybe iPhone 6 ?)
I sincerely hope you are wrong and there is no malice behind.
My own personal guess follows that explains behavior without bad intentions - SKIP reading if you are not interested in WILD guesses.
Just great and hard tech being developed while probably understaffed (*), and not good at Project Management and even less good at Consumer Communications.
I have dealt with 2 tech true "geniuses" in the past. I think I know the type: extremely strong tech wise, love of the limelight, very thin skinned, can hold a grudge when they believe they have been slighted, they feel surrounded by "idiots", have too little patience to deal with the "negative types", and too much pride to admit to have done anything wrong, and if they do it is really somebody else's fault that forced their hand, not theirs. They are not bad people, but can get to be extremely mean under pressure. On the other hand they can charm their audience if they want to as they transmit their passion and their knowledge to their audience.
With respect to WT: That is probably why they lash out and come up with conspiracy theories to justify their own mean behavior. And the more time that passes the worse they get as the pressure builds up. They prefer to hide from the issues they do not want to face, and that would explain the lack of project status communication and how it has gotten worse over time. They love having "buffers" to deal with the "negatives": how they left DBK here alone. This type absolutely hates to loose face. Would also explain what they have been posting at WTF, their inability to admit being wrong on anything, the banning, the order cancelling, etc.
I do not think there is malice and bad intentions behind that. I am sure that if you get to know them they are probably very likable, knowledgeable and charismatic. As proof of that anybody that has been 1-1 with Mark only has praises. And they are probably right.
This belief that there is no malice behind, and that they will eventually ship (unless they run out of money), coupled with my experience with Planet Computers and how great HW can absolutely fail without great SW, has made me more patient with WT in terms of GR because I think it will happen.
I still do not like their behavior, but we don't need to be friends. I just want my TB. (If they decided somebody is one of the "negatives" highly unlikely they will change their mind, no matter if proven wrong)
(*) we do not know how many engineers they had originally devoted 100%, and how that changed during the years until now - I would bet they have fewer resources than before and with a lot on their plate.
In brief: You have more than one account on Reddit, you broke the Reddit TOS by evading a ban by creating sock puppet accounts at least 3 times that I know of, those accounts are subject to a permanent suspension from Reddit. This suspension is not a moderation action but an Admin action.
Yes, I have repeatedly said that I find your constant PM's unwanted and harassing in nature, yet you still send them.
I asked you for evidence from this thread of you specifically defending me in this thread. Another day has passed and you simply flee from the argument.
1. So "brief" that you jumped over to what happened AFTER I was unfairly banned, supposedly for being "off-topic" even though I was responding to posts about me which came first. I make no apology for going against "rules" when the rules were already abused by the moderator.
2. Yet you have no problem talking about me over there publicly.
3. I gave an example before where I defended you (just a little). Not the post number, but I told you what I said.
I sincerely hope you are wrong and there is no malice behind.
My own personal guess follows that explains behavior without bad intentions - SKIP reading if you are not interested in WILD guesses.
I have dealt with 2 tech true "geniuses" in the past. I think I know the type: extremely strong tech wise, love of the limelight, very thin skinned, can hold a grudge when they believe they have been slighted, they feel surrounded by "idiots", have too little patience to deal with the "negative types", and too much pride to admit to have done anything wrong, and if they do it is really somebody else's fault that forced their hand, not theirs.
I do not think there is malice and bad intentions behind that. I am sure that if you get to know them they are probably very likable, knowledgeable and charismatic. As proof of that anybody that has been 1-1 with Mark only has praises. And they are probably right.
This belief that there is no malice behind, and that they will eventually ship (unless they run out of money), coupled with my experience with Planet Computers and how great HW can absolutely fail without great SW, has made me more patient with WT in terms of GR because I think it will happen.
I still do not like their behavior, but we don't need to be friends.
Interesting points, but I think presented in a reasonable way.
I have also talked about how people do things that seem to make little sense, but they aren't a sign of, as you put it, "malice".
I know they didn't like it when they put out updates and would immediately be attacked. I can understand how they MIGHT figure it is better to be attacked for lack of communication rather than having their communication attacked - even twisted. But my argument to them (which I've posted publicly) is that it doesn't matter if they get unfairly attacked when they make updates, because those updates are for those of us who just want information and are not in the attack business.
Obviously, that hasn't worked since they gradually did fewer updates. At least the big ones. Of course, I may be wrong about the reason, but it does fit. And I'm not accusing them of some malice either.
You gave some examples of other geniuses and how they could be. Of course, no way to tell if this applies to Mark or others at WT. But it is easy to tell when talking to him that he knows the tech he's developing. And hard to disagree with his goal. I don't know if the decisions on what to add and when, were sometimes the wrong choices in the short term. I can also see possibilities that some decisions may have been guided by things external to engineering (we, for example, know pretty much nothing about any other investors who may exist - and they may have pressured for some decisions which led to later problems). But it would all be conjecture. No one has the information to really know any of this.
>Hundreds' of TREG testers already existed at a time when Waytools was publicly posting that they were just beginning to contact customers to test. Not what what I said
It is exactly what you were saying. You were pushing the false narrative that there were hundreds of treg testers. You gave an example whose actual context proved your assertion to be patently false. Fail.
you don’t comprehend how complicated - and new - this tech is Because it is new and very complicated tech.
An illogical and sad little old man trolling people about his keyboard for 4 years wishes to speak of comprehension? And there you go again repeating yourself. New and complicated and complicated and new. This 'complicated tech' (ergo, they arent smart enough to make it work) does not remain 'new' (5+ year old finished prototypes) just because they have yet to ship it. Its actually getting rather old at this point.
Reminds me of those 'pallets' Mr. Appleinsider spoke of. If each box on the pallet contained a Textblade, how old is the battery? Are 4-5 year old batteries 'new'? Are they remanufacturing all the decaying parts as each half-decade passes? Those are good questions, among many good questions that Waytools will never answer because they are liars and this whole debacle is a pathetic scam that has evolved into a joke.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
You were pushing the false narrative that there were hundreds of treg testers.
This 'complicated tech' (ergo, they arent smart enough to make it work) does not remain 'new' (5+ year old finished prototypes) just because they have yet to ship it. Its actually getting rather old at this point.
And you know there are NOT hundreds of testers - how? No one knows the names unless they are from the forum (and only then if they announce it themselves, which we know, at least, that some wait a long time to do so maybe some don't say at all.
But that doesn't matter. We probably know most of them. But we have no names of anyone not on the forum. Thus you have no way to know how many there are other than the general figures WTs provided - which has been "hundreds" or, as they said to one tester, that those from the forum were a tiny minority of all the Treg testers at the time. But that fits in with "hundreds" just fine.
As for the tech, sorry, but whether it takes more time than you want doesn't mean it isn't "new" anymore. It is new and this means problems come up that are not anticipated. For comparison, a standard keyboard isn't new. It is using one of a handful of methods for sensing what key is pressed that have been around for many years. Even then, things can get screwed up - just look at the complaints about Apple laptop keyboards! And that problem has lasted a long time too, even though it isn't new tech.
I have yet to see a single Tregger - including ones who were previously very upset with WT - who got the TB and said something like, "This isn't complicated at all - they should have had this ready years ago". But plenty of them did change their mind about most of their criticisms.
I was interested in rereading the original article on AI to see where I might have some differences of opinion. I, of course, have much longer experience with the TextBlade so that's an advantage for me. But the author probably got more information from Mark and most of it more recent than what I would have.
>You can order a TextBlade and you will get it, but you won't get it quickly and it's more like being a limited beta tester than a customer.
This is an item I wouldn't have stated that way. I certainly expect people will get it, but until it actually ships, it remains an unknown. But this may be a limitation on what I know compared to the author, who was actually visiting the company. And he may be basing it on things he learned, but can not include publicly.
I'm also not sure what he meant by being "a limited beta tester". I mean, if you order and are waiting (but not in treg), I don't see how you are any kind of tester.
>they've had millions of dollars in pre-orders from all over the world
Very vague, as usual - though that is legitimate. However, it is more info than the original statement that about a million in the first two days. So, at least 2 million dollars - would be mostly TBs, of course, but some may be for extra stands, etc. These should be a very tiny portion. My suspicion is that the orders total well over 2 million, but there is no data for or against that.
>They also say that money from these orders is not what's funding the company. The founders of WayTools previously started a firm that produces 3D scanning tools....It's investments from the founders and friends which are funding the development of the TextBlade.
This has been stated multiple times (that it isn't our orders funding it), but we haven't had a clear statement before that I can recall about investments from the other founders or friends. This is important, though I doubt we'll ever get details. It's important because when money is at least partly from other investors, they exert their own influence on what should be done. Could be good. Could be negative.
>the financial backing of the company appears solid as far as we can tell.
Again, no details (which shouldn't be expected from any company), though the author may know some he just can't reveal. Thus we can't tell much one way or the other.
>we did see pallets of finished TextBlades
Lots of speculation about those. But my suspicion is that they are simply ones that are being used for Treg, but not yet the final product (such as the final keycaps with the new paint). I don't think they will have pallets of TBs for GR until the firmware is done. Now, they may have lots of unassembled parts that they don't think will need changing before GR. This would NOT include those new keycaps since they already said they don't want to redo them until they are sure about the latest changes.
But I can understand some people thinking they are the TBs planned for GR. I just don't think that fits the totality of the info we have.
>However, the two main blades connect at an angle that means typing may not be the same as a regular desktop keyboard, but it's far better than a typical mini one.
I would simply add that while the angle may well be an issue for some to adjust to (it was the biggest one for me), you do adjust. In my case, I got rid of most of the problem by not holding my elbows right against my side. This improved the hand angle to fit the blade angle.
>In the version we have, that switching between devices feels faster than we're used to from other keyboards.
Since I've never used another keyboard that did this, I was glad to read that comment. The only other things I ever read to give me even a hint of a comparison was years ago when I read some comment about a device that took 30 seconds to switch! But I don't know if that is a common amount of time. TB is FAR faster already.
>One of the delays to TextBlade, then, has been in determining how it will be used in the real world and then adding features to support that.
I think WT has expressed that. Some things are really important, once you experience it for awhile. Some filters. Some boundaries. Etc. And some things may be debatable in the sense that they may be important for many (possibly most), but could have been added later. Jumps would be an example. They had to decide on some of these things whether to include them from the start of GR or not. It isn't easy because some things, until you use it, you may not realize how important it will be to you. For example, I originally didn't think jumps was a big deal for me. It soon became obvious that I was wrong. So obvious that I don't know how I could have not seen it before.
>However, a perhaps greater reason for the delay is down to technical issues such as Bluetooth.
I have always thought this and the prior item are related. We learned just during Treg of serious issues in hardware and firmware that needed to be fixed for sure. But while such things are being done, should other things planned for the future have the people working on such future things do nothing? Or would it be better to use the time while other things are being fixed to go ahead with the additions?
Personally, I'd basically say they should go ahead. The question to me is more about how much? If you can add stuff that doesn't actually create new, hard to solve, problems, then moving forward is a good idea. If you put something new in that has great risk and may affect other things, then maybe not. Hard to know the best place to draw the line. Probably is no clear-cut place, except maybe in hindsight.
>The Bluetooth details are seemingly just one of very many apparently small issues that have required extensive work.
This was important to me as I've often said that while BT issues may be the most obvious, it was never the only issue. Yet many still thought it was.
With what device you have found yourself using it the most ? Do you actually use it everyday with a laptop for example ? I imagine I would use it primarily with an iPad, maybe very occasionally with a phone, and not at all with a laptop.
Even though a few treggers have mentioned they use it with a laptop and have created stuff to put the TB on, I do not see myself opening up my laptop, putting a cover over the laptop keyboard and dropping a TB on top. Seems a bit cumbersome for me and do not imagine the masses doing so, but perhaps the benefits of the TB makes it your go-to keyboard for everything. Comments from treggers ?
Just doing some reviewing of posts and saw stuff to respond to (I did respond before, but this will give a little more detail).
In my case, I mostly use it with my desktop Mac mini or iMac before that. However, if we went back to when I used a MacBook, I'd use it for that as well for a couple reasons.
One is that it is just a pleasure to type on so why would I want to use something else if I could avoid it?
Another is that, even if it didn't feel better than the MacBook keyboard, it is so much better to be able to type with any device and not have to changed anything about keyboards.
A third is that, especially with the TB, it is so different that when I was first learning it, sometimes I'd briefly go back to my regular Apple keyboard and I felt totally spastic with it! Even after years no of almost only using the TB (it will be weeks or even months between times I might do some tiny thing with a regular keyboard - typically at the Apple store), I'd say this is less of a problem. When I do try another keyboard at the Apple store or something, I'm pretty bad, but no longer feel out of control. So if I did it for a couple days, I'd probably be okay. But I sure wouldn't like it!
In fact, that's one of the things I worry about in relation to the TB getting wide adoption. I can see a lot of people having the same experience and, especially if their place of work doesn't allow personal keyboards to be brought in, they may fear that spending time on the TB may cause major problems at work going back to a regular keyboard. However, those who were always switching said they adjusted to it (just as I can easily switch between various sizes of instruments with somewhat different fingering systems). But, still, some people may not take the time to adjust.
In my case, I don't type on a desk. Pretty much all the time I have the TB on a lap desk (I made a simple one by just taking a 9x12 plexiglass sign holder (one with no stand to get in the way). But anything flat will do. I have found it if it much smaller than what I did, the "lap desk" can be a bit too wobbly. I'm pretty sure you can go smaller than I did, but not a lot smaller. But I couldn't find anything that was just a little smaller.
I do not think there is malice and bad intentions behind that. I am sure that if you get to know them they are probably very likable, knowledgeable and charismatic. As proof of that anybody that has been 1-1 with Mark only has praises. This belief that there is no malice behind, and that they will eventually ship (unless they run out of money), coupled with my experience with Planet Computers and how great HW can absolutely fail without great SW, has made me more patient with WT in terms of GR because I think it will happen.
Where I strongly disagree with you is in the fact that they heavily promoted a product as ready to ship and took the money up front 4+ years ago, FACT: knowing they could not and would not ship (Kahunas ridiculous BS explanations of 'whoops we had no idea' notwithstanding).
Despite failure after failure, and estimate after estimate, and falsehood after falsehood, and lie after lie, for 4+ years, they still have not changed even the slightest aspect of their approach to anything.
They have not changed how they communicate. They have not changed how they 'estimate'. They have not changed how they operate. They have not improved at managing their time. They have not improved at managing their goals. They have not improved at managing their resources. They have not improved how they interact with their customers. They have not proposed any ideas for course correction. They do not listen to criticism and engage in a good faith discussion of how they should address their mistakes. They have not reconsidered the ethics of their past decisions to take money from people under false pretenses. They ignore any question or criticism about the ethics of taking money from their earliest customers. They ignore any question or criticism about the 'order queue' vs the trickle of 'TREG' units shipped to people who came much later. They have repeated the exact same mistakes over and over for 4 years straight without a single course correction. There is not the slightest indication of any evolution in their thinking or behavior whatsoever.
They are still, right now, telling people a 'season' when the product will ship, and showing a calendar of ship date estimates on a web site, and accepting orders, and taking money from people despite the fact that they have absolutely no idea how or when they will ever ship a product to people who paid for it.
They have the money. They want to keep the money. They gaslight and obfuscate. They use Kahuna to deflect.
After this long, it is all far beyond the pale. Mark Knighton is a liar and a scam artist.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
An observation - which by now, is pretty evident throughout this thread -
Typically, when opposition PR agents are paid to do a job - i.e. disparage a competitive target - they use methods that are fairly easy to spot.
They must stay on message to perform their job. So they keep repeating the same disparaging talking points.
That’s why in the torrent of repetitive posts, they all end with the same message.
The objective is to malign. The target company, and its customers, are typically made out to be liars, dummies, criminals, scammers, shills, etc.
The message gets progressively shortened into simply a slogan, of fud. It’s cut-and-pasted for efficient production.
The repetition aims to keep a hashed-out thread alive, to refresh their same punchline, and always occupy the last word.
These anonymous posts are work-product, and hence very mechanical. Their unnatural tone is noticeably different from a real person. Someone wanting the product would use critique to prod the delivery they want, not sell a narrative of hopeless impossibility. Someone who thought the product was bogus would take a refund, and not waste their time repeating the same message endlessly. The mutual conflicts in posture are palpably artificial.
It’s now approaching 500 posts, with the same repeat messaging. This makes the purpose pretty conspicuous and clear.
We’ve invested >10X our preorders to maintain our technical progress steadily over 36 months of validation shipments, and we refund without hassle. By definition, bad guys don’t do that.
We dialed down posts here, and don’t engage the repetitive adversarial posts, that we’ve already answered earlier. Any facts that we, or our customers cite, predictably will get spun upside-down, to bait more disingenuous argument. That is the nature of opposition PR.
We accept that some parties oppose this being a huge success. For anyone who hasn’t followed their antics - if those opposition posts seem credible and cause any concern, please simply don’t buy our product.
To all our customers who’ve posted true facts on this thread, thank you.
The engagement of our excited customers is why this product is possible.
It’s why all of us will get something distinguished, that’s very well made, much needed, and well worth the time and effort to make it.
An observation - which by now, is pretty evident throughout this thread - Typically, when opposition PR agents are paid to do a job - i.e. disparage a competitive target - they use methods that are fairly easy to spot. They must stay on message to perform their job. So they keep repeating the same disparaging talking points. That’s why in the torrent of repetitive posts, they all end with the same message.
Alternative theory:
When a CUSTOMER who paid for a product 4+ years ago never receives a product, And a CUSTOMER asks questions and is never given any answers, And a CUSTOMER expresses frustration and in response is permanently shadow banned from the only forum where the vendor communicates, Because the vendor WAYTOOLS does not reply to emails Because the vendor WAYTOOLS does not reply to questions Because the vendor WAYTOOLS does not ship a product paid for in advance
THEN
The CUSTOMER may decide to take every opportunity to expose the sleazy outfit that is running a 4 year scam, and the CUSTOMER may decide to stay on message, much like the gaslighting liars at Waytools who religiously stay on message about shipping 'next week!' (4, 3, 2, 1 years ago).
This really sucks for you, doesn't it Mark Knighton? And yet - you do the same thing. Attack! Paranoia! Conspiracy! Deny! Deflect! LIE. Never do you consider where you have gone off track and how to correct your course. Just the same BS over and over.
In your addled brain, there exists no possibility that you have quite simply annoyed and pissed off so many customers with your sleazy, criminal antics, that among them all might be a few people who want to criticize and ridicule you at every possible opportunity, particularly when you are seeking publicity so you can rake more money into the coffers for a product you never intend to sell.
The target company, and its customers, are typically made out to be liars, dummies, criminals, scammers, shills, etc.
Careful Mark - you might get caught in a lie again. I have faithfully targeted a liar with my messages of truth: Waytools ('the company'), and Mark Knighton ('dummy, criminal, scammer'). I could care less about Kahuna ('shill'). I have never criticized Waytools customers, or its unfinished, unreleased, but paid for well-in-advance product. I can criticize any fool who hands you their money after you are a proven liar for 4+ years. That is helping people.
The message gets progressively shortened into simply a slogan, of fud. It’s cut-and-pasted for efficient production. The repetition aims to keep a hashed-out thread alive, to refresh their same punchline, and always occupy the last word.
The last word? Are you talking about your shill, the Kahuna character, who closes out every thread on your forum?
Keys for Kids! That was a slogan! Shipping March 2015! That was your FUD. Settling details and making progress, GR next week! That was your cut-and-pasted punchline 4,3,2,1 years ago. When you ban people from your forum until its a ghost town, who gets the last word exactly?
To all our customers who’ve posted true facts on this thread, thank you.
You are welcome! Now why dont you refund the money to all the people who paid you 4+ years ago, admit you have no idea when you will ever ship a working product, admit you lied on a weekly/monthly/quarterly basis when you said for the last 4+ years that you were shipping 'next week!', and apologize for taking so much money from so many people so long ago? Turn over a new leaf Mark!
After that, make whatever BS promises you want to make about how you will finish soon - and hey, if you do ever finish the keyboard, great! Just send us all an email letting us know you finally got your act together, and invite us to re-instate our orders and re-send our money and we will graciously accept our products, per the order queue, as originally promised, 4+ years ago, plus the 'free gift' (better for those who ordered the earliest!), also promised 4 years ago.
Or - as we all expect - demonstrate again that you are a lying gasbag. Say none of the above, just keep quiet and KEEP ALL THE MONEY. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money? How long has Mark had the money? 4+ years. Why does Mark want to keep the money? Mark likes all that free money. FREE MONEY. Mark gets the money. Customer gets no product. That is a great deal for Mark! Mark collects (latest most accurate estimate) (15000*125)/131 = $14,312.97 for each unfinished 'test' unit sent to a customer. Mark likes that profit margin, so Mark is going to keep all the money and keep doing what Mark does best. Talk. Gas. Light. Lie. Mark and his shill Kahuna talk a lot. They have talked everyone to death, and they have banned the remainder from talking at all. But no keyboard.
It’s why all of us will get something distinguished, that’s very well made, much needed, and well worth the time and effort to make it.
Mark said that in 2015. And 2016. And 2017. And 2018. And now here he is, mid-2019, gaslighting you all with promises of something 'well made' (it does not work yet) and 'much needed' (we have all lived without this aging unreleased tech for 4+ years even after paying for it), and 'well worth the time' (people have lived and died since their Textblade order was placed - was it worth it?), and 'effort' - except Mark is not putting any effort into finishing his little keyboard because he is busy offering Apple tech support on his forum to Kahuna, force-refunding customers who express concerns, banning customers who criticize 4 years of lies and delays, and spending the remainder of his time on the internet spouting conspiracy theories about all the people he pissed off by ripping them off.
With all that on the to-do list, Mark has hardly any time at all to work on Textblade, hence, it is not finished 4 years later.
If Mark would shut his mouth and focus his brain on the task at hand, or if Mark was the type who is motivated by ethics and personal and professional responsibility, or if Mark had a conscience when he looked at those fat stacks of cash raked in from all those orders 4 years ago, then Mark would STFU and get to work delivering the product he promised - 4 years ago - or Mark would REFUND ALL THE MONEY.
Mark has not changed in 4 years. Mark will not change in another 4 years. Mark is a liar.
Do not give him your money. He does not respect you. He does not respect those who, in good faith, gave him their money 4 years ago. Mark is a liar.
Why is poor Mark so abused? All he did was rip off 10,000 people for over $1,000,000. What a bad deal for Mark! Mark is the real victim here!
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
PS - Whoever my 'PR agent' employer is (we have not met!), I just pasted my disparaging talking points again. Please send me my check! (paranoid lunatic idiocy)
For anyone who hasn’t followed their antics - if those opposition posts seem credible and cause any concern, please simply don’t buy our product.
Outstanding advice.
Now there is just the tiny little issue of the $1,000,000+ dollars you already stole from 10,000 prior customers dating back to 2015. Let us know what you decide to do about that.
And yes, we know Mark - you are the victim here! It will be so painful for you to return all that money. We all feel so sorry for you having to do that. Life is so unfair!
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
An observation - which by now, is pretty evident throughout this thread - Typically, when opposition PR agents are paid to do a job - i.e. disparage a competitive target - they use methods that are fairly easy to spot.
The message gets progressively shortened into simply a slogan, of fud. It’s cut-and-pasted for efficient production. The repetition aims to keep a hashed-out thread alive, to refresh their same punchline, and always occupy the last word.
You sure seem to know a lot more about anonymous shills than any of us here. Care to tell us more? Like which company these evil-minded shills work for and what their intents are? You know, something more substantial than wild accusations? And if, as you repeatedly claim, that shills with fake anonymous accounts are running rampant in this thread, do you realize that's a slap in the face to the forum admin who already said they're not?
Even some of your faithful have said that your conspiracy theory, while entertaining, seems a bit overblown. Maybe you should listen to them and fix your narrative the next time you have that pow-wow in that secretive, exclusive Slack channel you guys got going on. Otherwise, to any casual reader, it comes off as a drug-induced fantasy.
The objective is to malign. The target company, and its customers, are typically made out to be liars, dummies, criminals, scammers, shills, etc.
That seems eerily similar to what YOU do -- calling all of us anonymous shills with FIVE alter-egos? But you decided to take it up a few notches with things like banning accounts, force-cancelling their orders, AND dragging out dirty laundry in public.
I noticed you used "... and its customers..." to seem like you're protecting your customers. All the people calling you out ARE your customers, or former customers (like me). There are none calling you out who hasn't made a transaction with you. So, I don't think your loose definition of 'customers' is now working in your favor. Understandable since you obviously don't know what 'customers' means.
They must stay on message to perform their job. So they keep repeating the same disparaging talking points. That’s why in the torrent of repetitive posts, they all end with the same message. It’s now approaching 500 posts, with the same repeat messaging. This makes the purpose pretty conspicuous and clear.
Again, what is that job? What is that purpose? It could be nothing, or it could be anything. How convenient for you.
What is the intent of all those ghostly, anonymous alter-egos? To steal your IP? Or maybe delay general shipment? If so, they obviously succeeded. So, have they won then, and you lost? Is that what you're really trying to say? Hmm.. are you sure you had no hand in the 4+ year delay? Is this your way to claiming innocence in all that? Did the alter-egos somehow force you to make all those promises/estimates/guesstimates/projections too?
Also, these "repetitive posts"... do you mean that repetitive Hawaiian hot-air BS torrent that's probably going to get him banned here as in other forums like Macrumors and Reddit? The one you're manipulating by egging him on to do your dirty work as your blow-hard mouthpiece, the same that you'd readily throw under the bus given the need, or perhaps even given the opportunity?
These anonymous posts are work-product, and hence very mechanical. Their unnatural tone is noticeably different from a real person. Someone wanting the product would use critique to prod the delivery they want, not sell a narrative of hopeless impossibility. Someone who thought the product was bogus would take a refund, and not waste their time repeating the same message endlessly. The mutual conflicts in posture are palpably artificial.
Or are you referring to your own repetitive, fortune cookie-styled psycho-babble, which is like those annoying robo-calls that continue to spam you even after you report them to the authorities? You know, I mentioned this more than once and others on your forums have said it repeatedly but whoever you are working behind the Waytools_Support name:
You don't sound natural.
You sound mechanical, gratingly so
You don't have the command of the English language
You are not articulate
You sound like a fortune cookie baked in an unstable, 3rd world country
Add to this all the lies, accusations, childish bantering, outlandish conspiracy theories (of what exactly you can never say), is it any wonder that people are left with nothing but negative impressions of your company? This is the only output anyone gets from you (since you rarely reply to emails or answer phones). This is your only mode of communication, and this is the best you can do -- either spout nonsense or go radio silent for months at a time.
An observation - which by now, is pretty evident throughout this thread -
Do go on, I'm betting it's a passive-aggressive dig at the posters here to throw peoples attention on to your speculative notions as to the motives of the posters asking questions rather than answering those question.
Typically,
Weasel words ahoy.
when opposition PR agents are paid to do a job - i.e. disparage a competitive target - they use methods that are fairly easy to spot. They must stay on message to perform their job. So they keep repeating the same disparaging talking points.
Do you speak from some experience here. for example how do you know the inner workings of how to engage PR company to oppose your competitors? Or is this hearsay? I am fascinated how you claim to know sooooooo much about this sort of thing without having done it.
Or perhaps you have no experience of this and are simply cherrypicking bits and pieces you have put into google using panicked confirmation bias?
Your paying customer would like to know.
oh and: Kerching - The shill gambit,
That’s why in the torrent of repetitive posts, they all end with the same message.
Do let us know what parts of this copy pasted message is incorrect. Oh and Waah, waah waaahhh use of emotive language;
The objective is to malign.
Brrap - Mindreading. You are claiming knowledge of another's motive rather than addressing their argument. It's and ad hominem attack and fallacious.
The target company, and its customers, are typically
Weasel words ahoy.
made out to be liars, dummies, criminals, scammers, shills, etc.
Ok this is an interesting one as you yourself have accused customers of being liars, criminals, scammers, shills, etc So by your example, is that trend part of an objective to malign those customers to undermine their points rather than answer their questions? I'm not saying that is the case, but I am saying that the you have exhibited this behaviour even to the point maintaining some of your accusations for years.
You even started this post with a Shill gambit, it's like you don't even read your own posts.
The message gets progressively shortened into simply a slogan, of fud. It’s cut-and-pasted for efficient production.
Does it? Could it simply be somewhat tiresome to make the same point with fresh language in each post?
On the topic of as you often put it "fud," isn't it within your compass to remove that uncertainty and I suppose in turn reducing the other two, by answering some customer questions?
The repetition aims to keep a hashed-out thread alive, to refresh their same punchline, and always occupy the last word.
Brrap - Mindreading. You are claiming knowledge of another's motive rather than addressing their argument. It's and ad hominem attack and fallacious.
These anonymous posts are work-product, and hence very mechanical.
Speculative. Demonstrate they are work product. For example does your competitor company have a name? As a competitor company is a corporate entity you should be able to let us know who they are, its not like customer data you are required to protect.
Their unnatural tone is noticeably different from a real person.
I suspect from your output that you are not particularly well placed to judge tone in written English. I would be surprised if English was even your primary language based on your tone, sentence construction, word choice and reliance on work place "buzz phrases" rather than plain speech. Whether or not that's the case. it's not a criticism just an observation.
Someone wanting the product would use critique to prod the delivery they want, not sell a narrative of hopeless impossibility.
I don't have a funny noise for this one, DBK doesn't do it... Och ay?
Och ay - the "no true Scotsman" fallacy The no true Scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. In this case you cannot refute that he is a customer therefore he must not be a 'proper' customer. It's one of my favourite forms of circular argument ;your existing belief has to be assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. So, existing belief becomes un-falsifiable.
Someone who thought the product was bogus would take a refund, and not waste their time repeating the same message endlessly.
Och ay again and REEEEEEEEE argument by assertion
The mutual conflicts in posture are palpably artificial.
Okay that's a sentence and a half right there. Is that because you didn't want to say "Those jointly incompatible attitudes are clearly insincere?"
As you argument is based of fallacious reasoning, this opinion can only be based on your presumptions. There is a lack of... substance to what you say.
It’s now approaching 500 posts, with the same repeat messaging. This makes the purpose pretty conspicuous and clear.
Can I just stop you there: There can't be approaching 500 posts with "with the same repeat messaging." between you and DBK you have made roughly a third of all those posts. It's not really important because this whole line of reasoning is phew, stinky a red herring, but DBK would have at least checked his numbers. (That's more or less a compliment if you're reading this. Who am I kidding? Of course you are, and I promise I will get to you in a little while, don't worry- R)
We’ve invested >10X our preorders
10 times $99 is $990. I am illustrating the problem of scale without reference here. If we knew a figure for either the investment or the pre-order numbers we would have a sense of scale.
to maintain our technical progress steadily over 36 months of validation shipments,
And by extension the 12 months or so prior to that, and when those patents were going in to the patent office over a decade ago. And by "Validation Shipments" to you mean the iterative release of prototypes of 11 or so different physical design under NDA which you retain full ownership rights over to a test release group?
and we refund without hassle. By definition, bad guys don’t do that.
Oh dear, congratulations on not breaking the law. You get the "doing the bare minimum" award.
We dialed down posts here,
Well, the admins had to come back and point out your bad behaviour so you pretty much had to.
and don’t engage the repetitive adversarial posts, that we’ve already answered earlier.
And you don't answer lot of things at all. Like:
Those Textblades on those pallets mentioned in the article as finished, do they have the firmware on them that you require for general release, do they have the run of keycaps with the new formula green ink that does not rub off. And were they produced before or after you got the guys on the production line to scrunching up the flex PCB during assembly.
These are reasonable questions that have simple low effort answers.
Any facts that we, or our customers cite, predictably will get spun upside-down, to bait more disingenuous argument.
Honk- Making claims based on future events Brrap - Mindreading. You are claiming knowledge of another's motive rather than addressing their argument. It's and ad hominem attack and fallacious.
That is the nature of opposition PR.
Choke Choke - Poisoning the well Kerching - The shill gambit, Which is a but rich considering you were complaining about your customers being called shills REEEEEEEEE argument by assertion
We accept that some parties oppose this being a huge success.
Okay, who? I want my little keyboard. (I thought in 'murica it was spelt 'Yuge' now, or did I get that wrong? /s)
For anyone who hasn’t followed their antics - if those opposition posts seem credible and cause any concern, please simply don’t buy our product.
Well that bit of the old 'cutting you nose off to spite your face' right there.
To all our customers who’ve posted true facts on this thread, thank you.
Tautological grating intensifies... "true facts" *shakes head in disgust*
But, thanks to everyone who gave up their time to jot down some answers for those of us out in the cold, much appreciated.
The engagement of our excited customers is why this product is possible.
No I suspect the "10x" investment and guys actually working on the product have more to do with it. Excited customers is a 'nice to have' rather than a requirement.
It’s why all of us will get something distinguished,
I'll see when it's finished
that’s very well made, much needed, and well worth the time and effort to make it.
Hi @ericpeets , While it would be nice, at times, to have a WayTools rep in our Slack channel, there’s not.
Don't you chaps over at slack also compile the Wiki?
Look cheers, for sticking with us this far down this mess. I'm responding on a separate comment because ...(glances upward) , and It's important to me for you to see that your responses to me and the others not on WTF, actually matter to me.
It doesnt matter what you say to it - the response is a riddle.
It doesnt matter what anyone says to it - it never learns. It has been the same for 4+ years.
It is the victim. It has the money.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
TextBladeDenied said: Where I strongly disagree with you is in the fact that they heavily promoted a product as ready to ship and took the money up front 4+ years ago, FACT: knowing they could not and would not ship
I get your point but following my "attitudinal guesstimate" from above I think they did believe they would ship very soon at the time. Potentially coming from not very good Project Planning perhaps.
But I agree with you that the "Availability" tab in their website with the "Sold" & "Estimated" is still misleading and does not provide a true sense of readiness, and we have nothing really tangible in terms of concrete "estimated" DATES / overall project status / comprehensive list of rest of hurdles to be addressed ahead of release (beyond the fork) / GR.
Still hope you are not right and there in no ill intent. For me the lack of real availability precision is just them trying to show themselves in a positive light. Similar to them wanting to save face when they represent having shipped "hundreds" of Treg-units under NDA as shipping to customers, etc etc. "Relatively true" but misleading. But not necessarily coming from a bad intent.
That is my theory. I could be wrong obviously. Having worked with true tech geniuses in the past I think I understand them a little in that light. I even potentially praised them (or Mark) in my previous post. Not that I condone the behavior as they can be very mean under pressure. (Read under pressure anything that could put them in a bad light instead of the limelight. Like delays, unforeseen problems, etc and the more time passes the bigger the pressure they feel).
@dabigkahuna: Thanks for the info. I guess I am wondering how I will adapt with mine (who knows when), and also perhaps the need to have short & solid tutorials at hand. If people need to overcome an "adapting period" I wonder if WT has researched consumer attitudes / how best to entice people to keep at it before they give-up adopting the TB if it is "too much work" / highlight the benefits to be enjoyed after the learning curve. (coming from you mentioning how different a TB feels vs a regular keyboard).
In my case, I mostly use it with my desktop Mac mini or iMac before that. However, if we went back to when I used a MacBook, I'd use it for that as well for a couple reasons. One is that it is just a pleasure to type on so why would I want to use something else if I could avoid it? Another is that, even if it didn't feel better than the MacBook keyboard, it is so much better to be able to type with any device and not have to changed anything about keyboards. A third is that, especially with the TB, it is so different that when I was first learning it, sometimes I'd briefly go back to my regular Apple keyboard and I felt totally spastic with it
Comments
Not what what I said
>'Hundreds' of TREG testers, presumably some portion of which were tech-enthusiasts and generally good natured geeks like everyone else who originally ordered from Waytools and posted on their forums, never once posted on the Waytools forums about their experience with the keyboard.
They are mostly people who never were on the forum to begin with. So why would they bother to show up later if they got in Treg?
Btw, at least one or two testers who posted on the forum after getting in Treg were not members before. So I guess that covers the idea that “none” of the non-forum members ever showed up.
>Your only 'proof' of the word 'hundreds' is your fake assertion that you heard it said, or that someone on a forum referred to it.
And other Treg members. But I know, anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just called a liar.
>Do you think that makes Waytools look better?
Oh, I don’t care about your issue with how many treggers there are compared to total orders. I just found it fascinating that you were giving such precise figures when you don’t know enough to actually do so.
>How stupid and incompetent are these people?
When when it comes to the engineering and tech, they are brilliant. Just because you don’t comprehend how complicated - and new - this tech is so you think it should be done much sooner doesn’t mean they are stupid.
Im sure they’ve made mistakes since pretty much everyone does but hindsight is 20/20. But it’s worth pointing out that people back in 2015 were saying within 6 months there would be a Chinese knockoff. Surprise. It still hasn’t happened. Because it is new and very complicated tech.
Well yeah, someone is exploring you red herring, of course you do. So briefly as I am aware of an upper character limit.:
If I am highlighting the point of course I am aware, and by running with the vagueness I highlighted you demonstrate my point.
If I am highlighting the point of course I am aware, and by running with the vagueness I highlighted you demonstrate my point.
This might be good...
In brief: You have more than one account on Reddit, you broke the Reddit TOS by evading a ban by creating sock puppet accounts at least 3 times that I know of, those accounts are subject to a permanent suspension from Reddit. This suspension is not a moderation action but an Admin action.
People responded to your fluff on WTF on reddit because they where account banned, shadow banned, or post restricted by WT on WTF. To paraphrase your earlier point: Did you expect to go unchallenged?
Ironically that is why the Subreddit r/textblade was created, because people could not respond to thing that were being said about them on WTF, nor comment on things they disagreed with. You complain that you are banned because "yadda, yadda, 2 posts" but you were allowed opportunities to show that you could post in a normal and reasonable manner. You squandered those opportunities because you have not learnt to play nicely with others.
If you remember I set up another sub, so that we could discuss your points keyboard to keyboard, as it were. My hope had been to see if you could maintain some posting discipline and if that were the case re-admit you to the textblade sub with a forum full of evidence showing you could and would behave. After a few months that new sub had become an example of every reason why your ban could not be lifted culminating in it's closure following a TOS violation. I take responsibility for closing it, and ending your chances of having your ban from r/textblade lifted, and ban which I did not place. The risk of further TOS violation was too great at that point and I had the personal safety of other users to consider.
It's all good fun until DBK shows you how far he will go. But. that is the past, and my hope is that no one is truly irredeemable. Otherwise I would not waste my time in these pointless discussions with you.
Yes, I have repeatedly said that I find your constant PM's unwanted and harassing in nature, yet you still send them. I don't read them anymore, and haven't done for quite a while, they just get pinged away automatically.
To paraphrase your earlier point: Did you expect to go unchallenged? You could always post your responses on Macrumors.....Oh wait you're suspended from there Well how about WTF? You have the floor somewhat at WTF, and you have the protection of WTF, so they are unlikely to ban your account unless you go completely off the rails. You can easily respond publicly there. In fact as the comment of yours that is being commented on is generally on WTF that seems a hugely appropriate place to respond.
You have to admit that it take a lot of gall to send private messages to the moderator of a place you are banned from in part due to your public harassment of other users, (not me) for years after your ban.
This is not for you to decide
And you can choose to not respond to it.
A statement which attempts to absolves you for your lack of control.Not not really. Waah, waah waaahhh use of emotive language;
REEEEEEEE: argument by assertion
Yes, you have said unambiguously: "here is what you must do or face these specific consequences"
Moving on:
Waah, waah waaahhh use of emotive language;
Ummm.. take the hint.
Nope, every statement that follows this DBK phrase needs scrutiny. It's never "simply" anything.
Ok then tell that to WT, on WTF. "Hey WT you are being absurd" or is this one of those things that only applies to people you argue with?
However Shame, shame, shame it's a strawman, I am saying that if you politely ask someone to stop PM'ing you, the model response should not be "I can't control myself, so you stop posting".
Shame, shame, shame it's a strawman No one is trying to control whether you respond just where you respond. Some of us are asking you to think "should I respond" a little more.
We know, because ultimatum.
moving on:
Nyan-Na the tu quoque fallacy,
moving on:
This is an example of what we are talking about when we mention your lack of self awareness. Next are you going to tell me you're rubber and i'm glue?
moving on:
Normally pretty well when I do it. You see every time you flee from a discussion point, or fail respond only in part to a post (my response to the remainder of this post is that argument is between you and TBD) You are leaving those points unchallenged.
For example I asked you for evidence from this thread of you specifically defending me in this thread. Another day has passed and you simply flee from the argument.
I could start keeping score like I used to on MacRumors, you know in case you forget the trail of abandoned positions, you used to love that.
Where do you stand on WT lying about a financial transaction, it has been asked before. Especially after they admitted in this thread that they had not even checked whether what they accused someone of doing was even true before hurling that accusation out into the public?
Moving on: I have nothing to say about post 451, it seems candid, wholesome, and contentious.
Moving on: 453 is between you and TBD, I do have comments but little time or inclination to get into that one.
Moving on
Shame, shame, shame it's a strawman. The concern stated that the started to post and then stopped not that the posted at all. You even offer an opinion relevant to Smurf's point by following up with:
See.
Yet I ALSO said they should post more on their own forum.
It's true that this is the case I have seen you ask, but it is not relevant to Smurf's "cut and run" point. Many posters here cannot follow them back to WTF, and posting on WTF does nothing to clarify the position left here.
for example there is still no response here as to whether the Textblades on the pallets seen in the article and described as "finished" were in fact finished. I point this out in the wake of WT admitting that they had no idea what the feature list for the product was going to be 2015, when they said it was production ready, and had been selling Textblades for over a year before starting to ask users "what do you need this product to do". The finished or unfinished question is valid, because 'production ready' is not the same as needs a focus group to decide on final design and features.
not interested in that bit at the moment.
Moving on: 457 mostly you and TBD tipping and hitting, but
We were told production ready in 2015. Is was told I would have a physical product in my hands in Mar 2015. Considering that often what we are told by WT does not always bear up to scrutiny, this bears scrutiny. Carry on.
Moving on: Actually I'm going to stop there as the posting is degenerating to the point of that I wonder how long this thread has got.
So, see you all tomorrow, if the thread is still open that is.
R
edit post count in first line
I sincerely hope you are wrong and there is no malice behind.
My own personal guess follows that explains behavior without bad intentions - SKIP reading if you are not interested in WILD guesses.
Just great and hard tech being developed while probably understaffed (*), and not good at Project Management and even less good at Consumer Communications.
I have dealt with 2 tech true "geniuses" in the past. I think I know the type: extremely strong tech wise, love of the limelight, very thin skinned, can hold a grudge when they believe they have been slighted, they feel surrounded by "idiots", have too little patience to deal with the "negative types", and too much pride to admit to have done anything wrong, and if they do it is really somebody else's fault that forced their hand, not theirs.
They are not bad people, but can get to be extremely mean under pressure. On the other hand they can charm their audience if they want to as they transmit their passion and their knowledge to their audience.
With respect to WT:
That is probably why they lash out and come up with conspiracy theories to justify their own mean behavior. And the more time that passes the worse they get as the pressure builds up. They prefer to hide from the issues they do not want to face, and that would explain the lack of project status communication and how it has gotten worse over time. They love having "buffers" to deal with the "negatives": how they left DBK here alone. This type absolutely hates to loose face. Would also explain what they have been posting at WTF, their inability to admit being wrong on anything, the banning, the order cancelling, etc.
I do not think there is malice and bad intentions behind that. I am sure that if you get to know them they are probably very likable, knowledgeable and charismatic. As proof of that anybody that has been 1-1 with Mark only has praises.
And they are probably right.
This belief that there is no malice behind, and that they will eventually ship (unless they run out of money), coupled with my experience with Planet Computers and how great HW can absolutely fail without great SW, has made me more patient with WT in terms of GR because I think it will happen.
I still do not like their behavior, but we don't need to be friends. I just want my TB. (If they decided somebody is one of the "negatives" highly unlikely they will change their mind, no matter if proven wrong)
(*) we do not know how many engineers they had originally devoted 100%, and how that changed during the years until now - I would bet they have fewer resources than before and with a lot on their plate.
2. Yet you have no problem talking about me over there publicly.
3. I gave an example before where I defended you (just a little). Not the post number, but I told you what I said.
Of course, I was mistaken to do so.
Interesting points, but I think presented in a reasonable way.
I have also talked about how people do things that seem to make little sense, but they aren't a sign of, as you put it, "malice".
I know they didn't like it when they put out updates and would immediately be attacked. I can understand how they MIGHT figure it is better to be attacked for lack of communication rather than having their communication attacked - even twisted. But my argument to them (which I've posted publicly) is that it doesn't matter if they get unfairly attacked when they make updates, because those updates are for those of us who just want information and are not in the attack business.
Obviously, that hasn't worked since they gradually did fewer updates. At least the big ones. Of course, I may be wrong about the reason, but it does fit. And I'm not accusing them of some malice either.
You gave some examples of other geniuses and how they could be. Of course, no way to tell if this applies to Mark or others at WT. But it is easy to tell when talking to him that he knows the tech he's developing. And hard to disagree with his goal. I don't know if the decisions on what to add and when, were sometimes the wrong choices in the short term. I can also see possibilities that some decisions may have been guided by things external to engineering (we, for example, know pretty much nothing about any other investors who may exist - and they may have pressured for some decisions which led to later problems). But it would all be conjecture. No one has the information to really know any of this.
An illogical and sad little old man trolling people about his keyboard for 4 years wishes to speak of comprehension? And there you go again repeating yourself. New and complicated and complicated and new. This 'complicated tech' (ergo, they arent smart enough to make it work) does not remain 'new' (5+ year old finished prototypes) just because they have yet to ship it. Its actually getting rather old at this point.
Reminds me of those 'pallets' Mr. Appleinsider spoke of. If each box on the pallet contained a Textblade, how old is the battery? Are 4-5 year old batteries 'new'? Are they remanufacturing all the decaying parts as each half-decade passes? Those are good questions, among many good questions that Waytools will never answer because they are liars and this whole debacle is a pathetic scam that has evolved into a joke.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
As for the tech, sorry, but whether it takes more time than you want doesn't mean it isn't "new" anymore. It is new and this means problems come up that are not anticipated. For comparison, a standard keyboard isn't new. It is using one of a handful of methods for sensing what key is pressed that have been around for many years. Even then, things can get screwed up - just look at the complaints about Apple laptop keyboards! And that problem has lasted a long time too, even though it isn't new tech.
I have yet to see a single Tregger - including ones who were previously very upset with WT - who got the TB and said something like, "This isn't complicated at all - they should have had this ready years ago". But plenty of them did change their mind about most of their criticisms.
In my case, I mostly use it with my desktop Mac mini or iMac before that. However, if we went back to when I used a MacBook, I'd use it for that as well for a couple reasons.
One is that it is just a pleasure to type on so why would I want to use something else if I could avoid it?
Another is that, even if it didn't feel better than the MacBook keyboard, it is so much better to be able to type with any device and not have to changed anything about keyboards.
A third is that, especially with the TB, it is so different that when I was first learning it, sometimes I'd briefly go back to my regular Apple keyboard and I felt totally spastic with it! Even after years no of almost only using the TB (it will be weeks or even months between times I might do some tiny thing with a regular keyboard - typically at the Apple store), I'd say this is less of a problem. When I do try another keyboard at the Apple store or something, I'm pretty bad, but no longer feel out of control. So if I did it for a couple days, I'd probably be okay. But I sure wouldn't like it!
In fact, that's one of the things I worry about in relation to the TB getting wide adoption. I can see a lot of people having the same experience and, especially if their place of work doesn't allow personal keyboards to be brought in, they may fear that spending time on the TB may cause major problems at work going back to a regular keyboard. However, those who were always switching said they adjusted to it (just as I can easily switch between various sizes of instruments with somewhat different fingering systems). But, still, some people may not take the time to adjust.
In my case, I don't type on a desk. Pretty much all the time I have the TB on a lap desk (I made a simple one by just taking a 9x12 plexiglass sign holder (one with no stand to get in the way). But anything flat will do. I have found it if it much smaller than what I did, the "lap desk" can be a bit too wobbly. I'm pretty sure you can go smaller than I did, but not a lot smaller. But I couldn't find anything that was just a little smaller.
Despite failure after failure, and estimate after estimate, and falsehood after falsehood, and lie after lie, for 4+ years, they still have not changed even the slightest aspect of their approach to anything.
They have not changed how they communicate.
They have not changed how they 'estimate'.
They have not changed how they operate.
They have not improved at managing their time.
They have not improved at managing their goals.
They have not improved at managing their resources.
They have not improved how they interact with their customers.
They have not proposed any ideas for course correction.
They do not listen to criticism and engage in a good faith discussion of how they should address their mistakes.
They have not reconsidered the ethics of their past decisions to take money from people under false pretenses.
They ignore any question or criticism about the ethics of taking money from their earliest customers.
They ignore any question or criticism about the 'order queue' vs the trickle of 'TREG' units shipped to people who came much later.
They have repeated the exact same mistakes over and over for 4 years straight without a single course correction.
There is not the slightest indication of any evolution in their thinking or behavior whatsoever.
They are still, right now, telling people a 'season' when the product will ship, and showing a calendar of ship date estimates on a web site, and accepting orders, and taking money from people despite the fact that they have absolutely no idea how or when they will ever ship a product to people who paid for it.
They have the money.
They want to keep the money.
They gaslight and obfuscate.
They use Kahuna to deflect.
After this long, it is all far beyond the pale. Mark Knighton is a liar and a scam artist.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
Typically, when opposition PR agents are paid to do a job - i.e. disparage a competitive target - they use methods that are fairly easy to spot.
They must stay on message to perform their job. So they keep repeating the same disparaging talking points.
That’s why in the torrent of repetitive posts, they all end with the same message.
The objective is to malign. The target company, and its customers, are typically made out to be liars, dummies, criminals, scammers, shills, etc.
The message gets progressively shortened into simply a slogan, of fud. It’s cut-and-pasted for efficient production.
The repetition aims to keep a hashed-out thread alive, to refresh their same punchline, and always occupy the last word.
These anonymous posts are work-product, and hence very mechanical. Their unnatural tone is noticeably different from a real person. Someone wanting the product would use critique to prod the delivery they want, not sell a narrative of hopeless impossibility. Someone who thought the product was bogus would take a refund, and not waste their time repeating the same message endlessly. The mutual conflicts in posture are palpably artificial.
It’s now approaching 500 posts, with the same repeat messaging. This makes the purpose pretty conspicuous and clear.
We’ve invested >10X our preorders to maintain our technical progress steadily over 36 months of validation shipments, and we refund without hassle. By definition, bad guys don’t do that.
We dialed down posts here, and don’t engage the repetitive adversarial posts, that we’ve already answered earlier. Any facts that we, or our customers cite, predictably will get spun upside-down, to bait more disingenuous argument. That is the nature of opposition PR.
We accept that some parties oppose this being a huge success. For anyone who hasn’t followed their antics - if those opposition posts seem credible and cause any concern, please simply don’t buy our product.
To all our customers who’ve posted true facts on this thread, thank you.
The engagement of our excited customers is why this product is possible.
It’s why all of us will get something distinguished, that’s very well made, much needed, and well worth the time and effort to make it.
Thank you.
When a CUSTOMER who paid for a product 4+ years ago never receives a product,
And a CUSTOMER asks questions and is never given any answers,
And a CUSTOMER expresses frustration and in response is permanently shadow banned from the only forum where the vendor communicates,
Because the vendor WAYTOOLS does not reply to emails
Because the vendor WAYTOOLS does not reply to questions
Because the vendor WAYTOOLS does not ship a product paid for in advance
THEN
The CUSTOMER may decide to take every opportunity to expose the sleazy outfit that is running a 4 year scam, and the CUSTOMER may decide to stay on message, much like the gaslighting liars at Waytools who religiously stay on message about shipping 'next week!' (4, 3, 2, 1 years ago).
This really sucks for you, doesn't it Mark Knighton? And yet - you do the same thing. Attack! Paranoia! Conspiracy! Deny! Deflect! LIE. Never do you consider where you have gone off track and how to correct your course. Just the same BS over and over.
In your addled brain, there exists no possibility that you have quite simply annoyed and pissed off so many customers with your sleazy, criminal antics, that among them all might be a few people who want to criticize and ridicule you at every possible opportunity, particularly when you are seeking publicity so you can rake more money into the coffers for a product you never intend to sell.
This is how people react to scammers and liars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnMAMjhqpyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVloCYjOfg8&t=10s
"Hey Mr. Knighton, how do you feel? What do you have to say to all those people that lost money Mr. Knighton?"
Careful Mark - you might get caught in a lie again. I have faithfully targeted a liar with my messages of truth: Waytools ('the company'), and Mark Knighton ('dummy, criminal, scammer'). I could care less about Kahuna ('shill'). I have never criticized Waytools customers, or its unfinished, unreleased, but paid for well-in-advance product. I can criticize any fool who hands you their money after you are a proven liar for 4+ years. That is helping people.
The last word? Are you talking about your shill, the Kahuna character, who closes out every thread on your forum?
Keys for Kids! That was a slogan! Shipping March 2015! That was your FUD. Settling details and making progress, GR next week! That was your cut-and-pasted punchline 4,3,2,1 years ago. When you ban people from your forum until its a ghost town, who gets the last word exactly?
You are welcome! Now why dont you refund the money to all the people who paid you 4+ years ago, admit you have no idea when you will ever ship a working product, admit you lied on a weekly/monthly/quarterly basis when you said for the last 4+ years that you were shipping 'next week!', and apologize for taking so much money from so many people so long ago? Turn over a new leaf Mark!
After that, make whatever BS promises you want to make about how you will finish soon - and hey, if you do ever finish the keyboard, great! Just send us all an email letting us know you finally got your act together, and invite us to re-instate our orders and re-send our money and we will graciously accept our products, per the order queue, as originally promised, 4+ years ago, plus the 'free gift' (better for those who ordered the earliest!), also promised 4 years ago.
Or - as we all expect - demonstrate again that you are a lying gasbag. Say none of the above, just keep quiet and KEEP ALL THE MONEY. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money? How long has Mark had the money? 4+ years. Why does Mark want to keep the money? Mark likes all that free money. FREE MONEY. Mark gets the money. Customer gets no product. That is a great deal for Mark! Mark collects (latest most accurate estimate) (15000*125)/131 = $14,312.97 for each unfinished 'test' unit sent to a customer. Mark likes that profit margin, so Mark is going to keep all the money and keep doing what Mark does best. Talk. Gas. Light. Lie. Mark and his shill Kahuna talk a lot. They have talked everyone to death, and they have banned the remainder from talking at all. But no keyboard.
Mark said that in 2015. And 2016. And 2017. And 2018. And now here he is, mid-2019, gaslighting you all with promises of something 'well made' (it does not work yet) and 'much needed' (we have all lived without this aging unreleased tech for 4+ years even after paying for it), and 'well worth the time' (people have lived and died since their Textblade order was placed - was it worth it?), and 'effort' - except Mark is not putting any effort into finishing his little keyboard because he is busy offering Apple tech support on his forum to Kahuna, force-refunding customers who express concerns, banning customers who criticize 4 years of lies and delays, and spending the remainder of his time on the internet spouting conspiracy theories about all the people he pissed off by ripping them off.
With all that on the to-do list, Mark has hardly any time at all to work on Textblade, hence, it is not finished 4 years later.
If Mark would shut his mouth and focus his brain on the task at hand, or if Mark was the type who is motivated by ethics and personal and professional responsibility, or if Mark had a conscience when he looked at those fat stacks of cash raked in from all those orders 4 years ago, then Mark would STFU and get to work delivering the product he promised - 4 years ago - or Mark would REFUND ALL THE MONEY.
Mark has not changed in 4 years. Mark will not change in another 4 years. Mark is a liar.
Do not give him your money. He does not respect you. He does not respect those who, in good faith, gave him their money 4 years ago. Mark is a liar.
Why is poor Mark so abused? All he did was rip off 10,000 people for over $1,000,000. What a bad deal for Mark! Mark is the real victim here!
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
PS - Whoever my 'PR agent' employer is (we have not met!), I just pasted my disparaging talking points again. Please send me my check! (paranoid lunatic idiocy)
Outstanding advice.
Now there is just the tiny little issue of the $1,000,000+ dollars you already stole from 10,000 prior customers dating back to 2015. Let us know what you decide to do about that.
And yes, we know Mark - you are the victim here! It will be so painful for you to return all that money. We all feel so sorry for you having to do that. Life is so unfair!
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
You sure seem to know a lot more about anonymous shills than any of us here. Care to tell us more? Like which company these evil-minded shills work for and what their intents are? You know, something more substantial than wild accusations? And if, as you repeatedly claim, that shills with fake anonymous accounts are running rampant in this thread, do you realize that's a slap in the face to the forum admin who already said they're not?
Even some of your faithful have said that your conspiracy theory, while entertaining, seems a bit overblown. Maybe you should listen to them and fix your narrative the next time you have that pow-wow in that secretive, exclusive Slack channel you guys got going on. Otherwise, to any casual reader, it comes off as a drug-induced fantasy.
That seems eerily similar to what YOU do -- calling all of us anonymous shills with FIVE alter-egos? But you decided to take it up a few notches with things like banning accounts, force-cancelling their orders, AND dragging out dirty laundry in public.
I noticed you used "... and its customers..." to seem like you're protecting your customers. All the people calling you out ARE your customers, or former customers (like me). There are none calling you out who hasn't made a transaction with you. So, I don't think your loose definition of 'customers' is now working in your favor. Understandable since you obviously don't know what 'customers' means.
Again, what is that job? What is that purpose? It could be nothing, or it could be anything. How convenient for you.
What is the intent of all those ghostly, anonymous alter-egos? To steal your IP? Or maybe delay general shipment? If so, they obviously succeeded. So, have they won then, and you lost? Is that what you're really trying to say? Hmm.. are you sure you had no hand in the 4+ year delay? Is this your way to claiming innocence in all that? Did the alter-egos somehow force you to make all those promises/estimates/guesstimates/projections too?
Also, these "repetitive posts"... do you mean that repetitive Hawaiian hot-air BS torrent that's probably going to get him banned here as in other forums like Macrumors and Reddit? The one you're manipulating by egging him on to do your dirty work as your blow-hard mouthpiece, the same that you'd readily throw under the bus given the need, or perhaps even given the opportunity?
Or are you referring to your own repetitive, fortune cookie-styled psycho-babble, which is like those annoying robo-calls that continue to spam you even after you report them to the authorities? You know, I mentioned this more than once and others on your forums have said it repeatedly but whoever you are working behind the Waytools_Support name:
Add to this all the lies, accusations, childish bantering, outlandish conspiracy theories (of what exactly you can never say), is it any wonder that people are left with nothing but negative impressions of your company? This is the only output anyone gets from you (since you rarely reply to emails or answer phones). This is your only mode of communication, and this is the best you can do -- either spout nonsense or go radio silent for months at a time.
While it would be nice, at times, to have a WayTools rep in our Slack channel, there’s not.
Weasel words ahoy.
Do you speak from some experience here. for example how do you know the inner workings of how to engage PR company to oppose your competitors? Or is this hearsay? I am fascinated how you claim to know sooooooo much about this sort of thing without having done it.
Or perhaps you have no experience of this and are simply cherrypicking bits and pieces you have put into google using panicked confirmation bias?
Your paying customer would like to know.
oh and:
Kerching - The shill gambit,
Do let us know what parts of this copy pasted message is incorrect. Oh and Waah, waah waaahhh use of emotive language;
Brrap - Mindreading. You are claiming knowledge of another's motive rather than addressing their argument. It's and ad hominem attack and fallacious.
Weasel words ahoy.
Ok this is an interesting one as you yourself have accused customers of being liars, criminals, scammers, shills, etc So by your example, is that trend part of an objective to malign those customers to undermine their points rather than answer their questions? I'm not saying that is the case, but I am saying that the you have exhibited this behaviour even to the point maintaining some of your accusations for years.
You even started this post with a Shill gambit, it's like you don't even read your own posts.
Does it? Could it simply be somewhat tiresome to make the same point with fresh language in each post?
On the topic of as you often put it "fud," isn't it within your compass to remove that uncertainty and I suppose in turn reducing the other two, by answering some customer questions?
Brrap - Mindreading. You are claiming knowledge of another's motive rather than addressing their argument. It's and ad hominem attack and fallacious.
Speculative. Demonstrate they are work product. For example does your competitor company have a name? As a competitor company is a corporate entity you should be able to let us know who they are, its not like customer data you are required to protect.
I suspect from your output that you are not particularly well placed to judge tone in written English. I would be surprised if English was even your primary language based on your tone, sentence construction, word choice and reliance on work place "buzz phrases" rather than plain speech. Whether or not that's the case. it's not a criticism just an observation.
I don't have a funny noise for this one, DBK doesn't do it... Och ay?
Och ay - the "no true Scotsman" fallacy The no true Scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. In this case you cannot refute that he is a customer therefore he must not be a 'proper' customer. It's one of my favourite forms of circular argument ;your existing belief has to be assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. So, existing belief becomes un-falsifiable.
Och ay again and REEEEEEEEE argument by assertion
Okay that's a sentence and a half right there. Is that because you didn't want to say "Those jointly incompatible attitudes are clearly insincere?"
As you argument is based of fallacious reasoning, this opinion can only be based on your presumptions. There is a lack of... substance to what you say.
Can I just stop you there: There can't be approaching 500 posts with "with the same repeat messaging." between you and DBK you have made roughly a third of all those posts. It's not really important because this whole line of reasoning is phew, stinky a red herring, but DBK would have at least checked his numbers. (That's more or less a compliment if you're reading this. Who am I kidding? Of course you are, and I promise I will get to you in a little while, don't worry- R)
10 times $99 is $990. I am illustrating the problem of scale without reference here. If we knew a figure for either the investment or the pre-order numbers we would have a sense of scale.
And by extension the 12 months or so prior to that, and when those patents were going in to the patent office over a decade ago. And by "Validation Shipments" to you mean the iterative release of prototypes of 11 or so different physical design under NDA which you retain full ownership rights over to a test release group?
Oh dear, congratulations on not breaking the law. You get the "doing the bare minimum" award.
Well, the admins had to come back and point out your bad behaviour so you pretty much had to.
And you don't answer lot of things at all. Like:
Those Textblades on those pallets mentioned in the article as finished, do they have the firmware on them that you require for general release, do they have the run of keycaps with the new formula green ink that does not rub off. And were they produced before or after you got the guys on the production line to scrunching up the flex PCB during assembly.
These are reasonable questions that have simple low effort answers.
Honk - Making claims based on future events
Brrap - Mindreading. You are claiming knowledge of another's motive rather than addressing their argument. It's and ad hominem attack and fallacious.
Choke Choke - Poisoning the well
Kerching - The shill gambit, Which is a but rich considering you were complaining about your customers being called shills
REEEEEEEEE argument by assertion
Okay, who? I want my little keyboard. (I thought in 'murica it was spelt 'Yuge' now, or did I get that wrong? /s)
Well that bit of the old 'cutting you nose off to spite your face' right there.
Tautological grating intensifies... "true facts" *shakes head in disgust*
But, thanks to everyone who gave up their time to jot down some answers for those of us out in the cold, much appreciated.
No I suspect the "10x" investment and guys actually working on the product have more to do with it. Excited customers is a 'nice to have' rather than a requirement.
I'll see when it's finished
I said I'll see when it's finished
Whatever.
R
Look cheers, for sticking with us this far down this mess. I'm responding on a separate comment because ...(glances upward) , and It's important to me for you to see that your responses to me and the others not on WTF, actually matter to me.
R
When it’s pointed out, it gets more strident, personally abusive, and long-winded. That’s to deflect, confuse, and deny what they’re doing.
It’s pretty much what you’d expect whenever contrivances and contradictions are called out.
No elaborate conspiracy. It’s just a gig, for folks in that business.
They make narrative. We make technology. No one who buys their product, will buy ours.
That sorts out fine.
It doesnt matter what you say to it - the response is a riddle.
It doesnt matter what anyone says to it - it never learns. It has been the same for 4+ years.
It is the victim. It has the money.
Two pallets of aging Textblades with expired batteries. Millions of dollars collected from 10,000+ customers? 4+ years. No product shipped. No keys for kids. Who has the money? Mark Knighton has the money.
But I agree with you that the "Availability" tab in their website with the "Sold" & "Estimated" is still misleading and does not provide a true sense of readiness, and we have nothing really tangible in terms of concrete "estimated" DATES / overall project status / comprehensive list of rest of hurdles to be addressed ahead of release (beyond the fork) / GR.
Still hope you are not right and there in no ill intent. For me the lack of real availability precision is just them trying to show themselves in a positive light. Similar to them wanting to save face when they represent having shipped "hundreds" of Treg-units under NDA as shipping to customers, etc etc. "Relatively true" but misleading. But not necessarily coming from a bad intent.
That is my theory. I could be wrong obviously.
Having worked with true tech geniuses in the past I think I understand them a little in that light. I even potentially praised them (or Mark) in my previous post. Not that I condone the behavior as they can be very mean under pressure.
(Read under pressure anything that could put them in a bad light instead of the limelight. Like delays, unforeseen problems, etc and the more time passes the bigger the pressure they feel).
@dabigkahuna: Thanks for the info. I guess I am wondering how I will adapt with mine (who knows when), and also perhaps the need to have short & solid tutorials at hand. If people need to overcome an "adapting period" I wonder if WT has researched consumer attitudes / how best to entice people to keep at it before they give-up adopting the TB if it is "too much work" / highlight the benefits to be enjoyed after the learning curve. (coming from you mentioning how different a TB feels vs a regular keyboard).