I can say with some confidence that they are diligently working on the product. There is the fact that by all accounts the TB is a major improvement on keyboard concepts. Something no one else has done in many decades and even now, being able to see the basic concept, still haven’t.
It is probably appropriate to also point out that some stuff they get criticized for as taking them off the task of getting it ready for shipping have been wrong. Such as the complaints about taking hours to talk to treggers.
Well, it’s true that they do spend hours sometimes on a single call but as is often the case, that only tells part of the story. Typically these calls don’t take place during working hours. Most of mine take place at night. VERY late. A recent one ended after midnight for me - which means it was after 3:00 AM for them! If you look at many of their updates, they have also come late at night. If I get a call during working hours, it is likely because I had a serious problem making using the TB almost impossible- so they needed to get to the bottom of it quickly.
IOW, a lot of what they got criticized for taking away from the main task was actually taking their non-work time to go over things that weren’t emergencies! This is a good thing.
While communication in general could be much better, those of us in Treg can say they have always been hard at work on issues. We may not know how serious a given problem is, but they definitely work hard to solve them.
We also can’t say for sure whether they tried to make it “too good” before shipping - but no one else can really know either. That can include WT since business decisions are not always clear cut. But that has nothing to do with working hard on it.
it comes down to how challenging this system is and what level is decided it has to be at before GR. The challenges are huge but it is hard to make that clear if you haven’t used it. But you might take note that a number of treggers who didn’t think so before changed their minds when they got it.
Which leaves the the question of whether they are making it too good before shipping. There is no way to be sure either way. Just opinions.
So, focusing on what we know at the moment that is relatively new - the old firmware was declared to be good enough, finally. But that still leaves the problem of decent customer support after GR and that requires rewrite to free up space.
Next public item should be the tech update this month (best not to miss it again, WT). Shipping update to Treg would be the next big step. Then cross your fingers that all they learned from the first time means we don’t find lots of problems again!
WayTools_Support said: [another slice of questionable logic and lack of discretion]
Err Wut?
Firstly, I have not been uncivil. Unless you born in the eighteenth century of course, in which case congratulations on achieving this ripe old age. I shall order some doilies to put under the teapot and wash the antimacassars with best carbolic. That aside, if you have any specific criticism regarding my tone in this thread I suggest you put them in a PM to me and we can discuss them at length there.
If we are to stack your behaviour against mine, I think that I have shown a not inconsiderable amount of restraint. I haven't diagnosed your mental state, advised people coming to this thread not to buy your product, copy pasted a claims footnote, or well anything very much,. I have asked on topic questions regarding the completeness of the bulk items specified in the article in question and many others besides. I have have queries responded to by TREG members with no rancour or unpleasantness. Your first act here was to attack first Ericpeets then shortly after you rounded on me. Even after a simple request for information and a call for peace due to the common ground we as customers-ordinary share with TREG members, your first thought was to immediately attack me again.
I understand that the bloke whose order you cancelled sought legal advice. (He IAAL although this is not his field) He had said that chasing a remedy was probably not worth the effort. I had offered to quietly add another unit to my order, at my own expense, and he just laughed. His assertion was that "California consumer protection is an £$£%ing joke, and that unless you are suing for millions no one cares." I took that as fair warning that legal action halfway across the world over a $99 dollar keyboard was pointless. As you claim specifically that I said on AI that I was retaining my order "to sue" I would like you to link to the post on AI in which I said that and if not link is forth coming for you to admit that is not a thing I have said on AI.
Where precisely on AI have I said it wont ship? I mean we are four years after your original stated ship date, every ship estimate given barring the most recent one has been wrong and that will either be met or not. I have said that you won't ship, and specified that your statement of requiring feature parity between old and new firmware versions is the limiting factor. One assumes due to your lack of response to the others requests for a list of tasks that need to be completed prior to general release that this is the last thing that needs doing? Firmware feature parity, roll out to TREG, GR, in that order. That is what is in the public domain, so how about putting some time frames on those steps? It is not like you have not been asked many times already?
I take great pains to not say "don't buy it", you seem quite capable of driving away custom whatever I might say. When I am asked about your product I show them your posts, and that usually invoke the "wince face" that is normally reserved for when you see someone hit themselves in the 'fork'. I moderate a subreddit full of people who have run afoul of you and your customer service, and ensure that it stays on the right side of proper, for Reddit that is. You make a specific claim that on AI I have said "don't buy it", I would like you to find the post on AI in which I said that and link it in your response, or admit that I did not say it. I hardly think that not wanting you to force a refund is incompatible with wanting the product, is it?
If we are to talk about preceding statements, which is going to be a bad idea considering the Admin note on the thread, one might ask you once again about the many preceding incorrect shipping estimates, the false claims about financial transactions made here and elsewhere, etc.
I cannot fathom whether the manner your misrepresent what I say is due to your lack of grasp of English, that you are responding to multiple people and are just getting muddled, or whether there is malicious intent. I have given you the benefit of the doubt so far, as I am a great believer in not ascribing to malice that which can be explained by error.
Example.
Rolanbek - please look here at what no one has said about what nobody got.
I said
One bit of common ground is: No one has got what they paid for yet.
While TREG members use a prototype unit, it remains the property of WT. So they are also waiting for GR to get what they paid for. That they effectively pay for that test access with their time and data is a matter for them to deal with.
Posting a review link is not a response to that. Is your contention that the TREG members have received the goods specified in the contract of sale between you and them? Because that is counter to the NDA document that they are required to sign on admission to TREG.
You cannot have it both ways dear, either the product is their property to dispose of as they will or it is yours, in which case TREG does not have what they paid for, they have use of a unit on loan from you with clear retention of title and even a misbehaviour clause allowing you to revoke that use. You have specified that TREG units contain a dated token that renders the device unusable after an amount of has elapsed and an action has not being performed (said to be connection to the IOS app for updates).
Is that double negative just you trying to be cute? I ask because one of the many criticisms regarding your communication style is that you are less that clear in what you say and that you take great pains to use phrasing which is obtuse and ambiguous.
In any case I have already read those reviews.
I invite anyone to read my past posts here, on Reddit and on WTF, I especially think the warranty claim one is especially funny. Your mileage may vary, of course. I am at a speaking engagement in the Pasadena area in the summer and you are welcome to attend, you might find some of the anecdotes particularly familiar, if you would like details you can PM me. Or I could come to you? You are still at the same address aren't you? Itinerary permitting of course.
If we miss each each there I am sure you will be in Europe at some point, I am often in the Netherlands and Denmark for work, so I can catch you there if you like?
Equally if you don't want to meet I understand, it's fine, a lot of people find my towering intellect intimid..... [bursts into laughter] well I nearly got through that without laughing. Look if you don't want to meet, that is fine, it's not the first time I have offered to meet, and it won't be the first time you declined (although it was more a lack of response last time, followed shortly by a forum ban.) If you don't want me to be anonymous to you that is fine, but you have you publicly state that you will not cancel my orders.
As last point, regarding your statement that you will respond only if the claims are no longer provocative, the same test and condition lies with you, perhaps you could publicly retract your provocative claims, and then we can get on and discuss the product in a bit of peace. You went through that list of conditions for posting here and noted the section on ad hom's, time for you walk your's back perhaps?
It would be really nice for everyone if there we’re no attacks to answer.
I could not agree more. I even wrote a few posts asking everybody to get back on topic, and also asking not to attack DBK.
I do not think I said stuff that was out of bounds but if you felt "attacked" by anything I said I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.
Just using this venue to to ask questions on the TB and try to get some answers as I cannot do that at WTF as I was (unfairly from my perspective) banned.
Peace.
Let's talk about the TB please: What can you share on the project status in terms of what are remaining milestones BESIDES the firmware update? (on which you already mentioned you will post an update this month on your site).
A deceiver’s only work-product is false words, and only identity is anonymous. We won’t swallow that bait. We won’t refute each false point.
Why don't you represent yourself as who you are if you are so concerned about anonymity? Is your name "Waytools_Support" or "Mark Knighton"?
I find it distracting and annoying that you complain about anonymity but speak the way you do here using a screen name and writing in the first-person-plural form. I do not believe anyone who claims you are more than one person behind the screen name. Only one person writes as you do. So if you hate anonymity, post with your real name, as Mark Knighton, CEO of Waytools.
The only reason your critics prefer anonymity is so you cannot force cancel their orders. You banned them from your forum and canceled their orders. What do you expect people to do when you treat them so poorly?
It is hard to see any sincerity in a message that claims to apologize, laments repetition, and then proceeds to repeat it all profusely.
It is hard to see any sincerity in the responses of a CEO that lies to its customers about ship dates, takes the money, and refuses to ship a product for 4+ years. This is a point you consistently avoid acknowledging, thus here we go again in circles. Are you not repeating yourself profusely as well?
The consistency of these messages, here, and across the internet, over years of sustained targeting, betrays an underlying economic impetus.
No matter how carefully you try to phrase it, there it is again: a paranoid and totally unsubstantiated accusation that all of the critics are part of a mystical 'Oppo-PR' campaign (your term), rather than being your legitimately frustrated customers.
You started accusing your customers of being part of the Oppo-PR illuminati as far back as March 2015 (link: http://alturl.com/3qyj5 ), just a couple months after the product was announced. I cant remember how 'officially' late you were at that point, but it obviously was not 4 years. A few weeks or a month perhaps? All the people on that thread had valid criticisms and valid questions, and rather than acknowledge any of them sincerely, you attacked them, and set the tone for all that has followed.
Four years later, where are you? You are in the exact same place. You have not evolved. No product shipped. Same defensive bickering in every reply. Same patronizing antagonistic aggressive attitude towards your customers.
See - this is the thing that has to be repeated for clarity every time you obfuscate it. Anytime you read criticism of Waytools and Mark Knighton, you have got to read it in the context of how incredibly long this has been going on, and how they have behaved so consistently for so long. You can go back in time 4 years, and read every post on their forum where they stated a time frame when they would ship, or when they accused frustrated customers of being paid shills, etc. It is all of the same stuff that you see in this thread. Here we are 4 years later! Waytools still has the money, and still no product shipped!
That is valid stuff to comment on and criticize! I do not believe it is a violation of forum rules (so long as I keep my temper in check) to hammer these points home each time you reply with more obfuscation, or each time you avoid answering any direct question posed by your customers. I am commenting entirely within the scope of the subject matter of the article that preceded all of these comments. The article was about Waytools, and the Textblade, and Mark Knighton, and Mark Knighton is right here, right now, posting in these comments, bickering with people, slandering them with accusations of being 'paid opposition', and making debatable statements about his company and his product, thus inviting critical feedback.
I can certainly understand why Appleinsider might say they have had enough of the whole debacle and lock the thread, but I believe I am using the platform they provide in good faith, commenting sincerely, and trying to stay on topic.
As is a signature of these messages, all of the bad doings are then claimed to be the fault of the target.
That is correct. I do sincerely believe that your behavior - taking money from people, stating that a product was ready and shipping within weeks, missing 4 years of ship dates, while bickering with and slandering your customers as paid opposition - is entirely the fault of Waytools.
Who else do you think could be held responsible for all of that?
If someone plans a scam, they don’t use their real names, nor make verifiably good work-product.
No one in the world understands why you have done all that you have done. It does not make sense to most people, hence all the drama.
That said, what you stated is actually quite false. Scammers use their real identities and real names and real credentials and real reputations all the time to rip people off. It is one of the central tenets of many styles of 'long con'. Bernie Madoff used his real name. He made a 'verifiably good' investment product. Anybody who got in early made millions! Until it all collapsed, his name and reputation were his primary weapon to scam more people out of their money.
Do I think you rise to the same level of mischief as Bernie Madoff? No. Do I think you are potentially of the same mindset? Yes. I believe if you were an ethical and legit business, you would not do as you have done.
I believe you could salvage your reputation by refunding everyone until the product is legitimately ready to ship, and I challenge you to do so.
My signature line was repetitious so I'll stop pasting it.
Weasel words. You do not give direct answers to any questions. You ignore every specific inquiry directed towards you. The only other type of comment remaining is criticism, and your responses to your critics leave much to be desired. After 4 years, you have not realized what you are doing wrong in the communication department. It is ridiculous and unprofessional and unethical behavior and there is no defending it.
It would be really nice for everyone if there we’re no attacks to answer.
Yeah that sounds like a sweet plan. You want to keep the money, and silence all the critics.
That is not going to happen.
There would be no attacks if you refunded all the money to the people who paid you for a product you have not shipped for 4 years. People would not be mad if you were not playing this carrot and stick game of holding money + offering gift + stating ship date + missing ship date (for 4 years). People would simply forget you exist. And then if you ever finally released a product, they would consider whether or not to purchase again.
Refund all the money. Finish your product. Offer it for sale. Simple. Ethical. Responsible. Try it.
This is a marketing page. Not sure whether they can be construed as ads, which are not allowed. And nothing against TREG folks, but those 'Reviews' are skewed, as they've received a unit, albeit for testing purposes and speaks of only their units (which seems great, by the way).
For the larger majority who haven't received theirs, this is the more general consensus:
Your language above is thankfully more civil. However, your history of posts, even just on AI’s venue, is very different from what you now say.
“I just want to know where my stuff is.” Has long been preceded by this message -
(It won’t ship. Don’t buy it. But I’m keeping my order just so I can sue - for taking my money - which I won’t let them refund.)
So you take offense at anyone who wants to know where their stuff is? Don't you realize EVERYBODY who's your 'customer' wants to know where their stuff is? The vast majority of posts on your forums is just multiple variations of that question -- which you find 'uncivil'.
You posted above claiming we misrepresent your reputation. Our response -
Your own extensive posts are what define your reputation. There is plenty that controverts your new version.
Anyone who wishes to judge for themselves what misleading has been done, can simply read your prior posts.
That is personal matter between you and Rolanbek. Don't drag us all in to act as your judge(s). I suggest you both duke it out elsewhere... as per forum guidelines. Speaking of which...
Good points worth reflecting upon from the AI Forum Rules page -
<<< Partial clippings of the AI Forum Guidelines >>>
Multiple accounts per user are not allowed, nor is making a new one after a ban. We already know which of you have created new accounts after a prior ban, and you're being grandfathered in -- but don't do it again, and don't repeat the crimes that got you banned in the first place.
A deceiver’s only work-product is false words, and only identity is anonymous.
In virtually all your posts, you repeatedly accuse several people of being anonymous users each with MULTIPLE (five of them, according to you) accounts, or alter-egos -- high-fiving one another for what... street creds, post count, was it? All a part of (as yet unamed) cabal out to destroy you. You even accused me of being a part of this anonymous gang. I have nothing against anonymous ID usage (as they do serve a purpose), but how am I anonymous? What part of Eric Peets (ericpeets) or Rolanbek (rolanbek) is anonymous?
And we are not out to get you. For me, I feel morally obligated to provide a balance (from my real world experience) to your marketing messages -- which are at best cryptic, to extremely misleading full of holes that need to be filled. I feel all potential users are entitled to get the whole, complete story before plunking down their $99, which may not be much for some, but a decent chunk of change for others.
Yet you keep making this same accusation over and over even after Mike had reassured us that no such multiple anonymous + alter-egos generating tactics exists.
I won't go over the rest of your statement, or as you said:
We won’t refute each false point.
Except this:
When all else fails, just remember - be civil! Don't say thingshere that you wouldn't say face-to-face, or in front of your own children.
Speaking of children, answer me this if nothing else. Let's not get into semantics games, simple yes/no + a simple explanation. And I'm asking you Waytools -- not Kahuna or anyone else:
Will you honor the promise you made in your Keys for Kids marketing. If so, when?
Speaking of children, answer me this if nothing else. Let's not get into semantics games, simple yes/no + a simple explanation. And I'm asking you Waytools -- not Kahuna or anyone else:
Will you honor the promise you made in your Keys for Kids marketing. If so, when?
If not, why not?
Yes, I have specific questions about that topic, as well as many other questions I have already posted on this thread. Many people have questions. If Mark Knighton would indicate he is ready to start answering such questions, I would re-post mine, but until he indicates such, I feel like its pathetic to ask, as it is obvious he is not going to respond.
Mark, are you aware of the 'AMA' concept? Why wont you do something like that? Start a thread 'Ask Me Anything', and then answer every question about the product, product status, shipping delays, etc.
Of course you cannot do it on your forum as almost everyone has been banned. But here is another idea: people have been banned or shadow banned (unable to post) at your forum for years. Why not offer some clemency to all of your banned customers and unban everyone? Then you can do an AMA there.
Of course, if anyone goes ballistic, you can always ban them again. So what is the downside?
I think you would find a lot of good faith questions being asked if you demonstrated some good faith efforts to reconnect with people whom you have damaged your relationship with. Until you ship the product your customers paid for, the onus is on you to re-establish credibility and trust.
Speaking of children, answer me this if nothing else. Let's not get into semantics games, simple yes/no + a simple explanation. And I'm asking you Waytools -- not Kahuna or anyone else:
Will you honor the promise you made in your Keys for Kids marketing. If so, when?
If not, why not?
Yes, I have specific questions about that topic, as well as many other questions I have already posted on this thread. Many people have questions. If Mark Knighton would indicate he is ready to start answering such questions, I would re-post mine, but until he indicates such, I feel like its pathetic to ask, as it is obvious he is not going to respond.
Mark, are you aware of the 'AMA' concept? Why wont you do something like that? Start a thread 'Ask Me Anything', and then answer every question about the product, product status, shipping delays, etc.
Of course you cannot do it on your forum as almost everyone has been banned. But here is another idea: people have been banned or shadow banned (unable to post) at your forum for years. Why not offer some clemency to all of your banned customers and unban everyone? Then you can do an AMA there.
Of course, if anyone goes ballistic, you can always ban them again. So what is the downside?
I think you would find a lot of good faith questions being asked if you demonstrated some good faith efforts to reconnect with people whom you have damaged your relationship with. Until you ship the product your customers paid for, the onus is on you to re-establish credibility and trust.
Given the historical evidence, my theory is that the purpose of the Rants forum was to trick people into thinking they could voice legitimate frustrations so Waytools would have an easier time identifying and purging the malcontents.
Lately, that forum is more like the bridge of an Imperial Starship after Darth Vader has gone on one of his Force-choking rampages. Not a lot of strong opinions being shared about the situation.
@WayTools_Support ; Guys pls respond. I ask again: What can you share on the project status in terms of what are remaining milestones BESIDES the firmware update? (on which you already mentioned you will post an update this month on your site).
Alex - if you have a look here, you’ll we were silent after Mike asked for folks to stop and read the rules.
The first folks to post were you, tbd, and Rolanbek, all of whom repeated the same kind of criticisms which unjustly impugn our work.
As discussed, some of this posting flies directly in the face of the forum rules.
if you wish us not to respond to such posts, please consider just not making provocative claims.
We didn’t initiate, we only responded.
It would be really nice for everyone if there we’re no attacks to answer.
Dear Waytools_Support,
There was no “unjust” impugning of your work when you consider the 4+ years of unjust delays and the unjust ways in which you have spoken to customers, past, present and future, even in the AI forum.
It also “would be really nice for everyone” if there were Textblades to buy at retail, at Amazon, and the Textbladelays would finally end.
Dear Lord, please help Waytools_Support to take a Dale Carnegie course in how to win friends and influence people, to finish their work, and to get to general release, all without ever once referring to imaginary “Oppo PR” campaigns ever again unless they are talking about how well Textblades work with OPPO phones (and Huaweis, iPhones, Samsungs etc).
Our Keyboard, who art in California, Textblade be thy name. Our keyboards come When deliveries be done On Earth as it is in Treggen. Give us this day our daily Textblades And forgive Waytools their trespasses, As we forgive Waytools their trespasses against us. And lead us not into Logitechs, But deliver us our Textblades, For it is the king of keyboards, With the power, and the glory, When customers can buy it For ever and ever.
Amen and Awomen who all want Atextblade.
PS It genuinely would be really nice for everyone if you didn’t waste time responding to me, and genuinely really nice if you responded to Arkorott above.
He deserves a response that actually genuinely answers his questions, as opposed to any other kind of answer, and he deserves an answer from you directly, and not anyone else attempting to answer and rationalise on your behalf.
I’ll say “unjust do it” for comedic value, but please, just do it.
Biblical verse, even. And those Star Wars parodies. The guy can write.
Arkorott - per our earlier reply to you, we’ll post news of several exciting advances on our forum. We hope you like it.
Here, if we post “blue skies are beautiful”, rabid comments will follow.
With every word twisted to spin and thwart, no meaningful conversation flows. By design.
So we’ll let them talk to each other, or themselves, as they please.
And we’ll focus on advancing the good news of our progress.
Dear Waytools_Support. I'm actually an award winning technology journalist, Best Feature Writer 2017 - Consensus IT Writers Awards, and just last Thursday, Best Technical Writer 2019, same awards organisation (which has just celebrated its 20th anniversary), so yes - I can definitely write. And I type a lot! It's one of the many reasons why I was one of the first to order on January 15, 2015.
I'm sure I could write an award winning article about the TextBlade, but let us all be very clear, no-one wants a "blue skies are beautiful" motherhood statement from you, Waytools_Support, and no-one has asked for that.
We merely want the truth - what are the real "gating" issues preventing general release, what is a realistic timeframe for the development to end, and when do you expect GR to occur? Do you even actually know?
Once you have that, you'll have actual REAL customers who can "talk to each other, or themselves, as they please".
Please let it also be on the record that the true person to "spin and twist every word" and "thwart customers" so that "no meaningful conversation flows, by design", is Waytools_Support. This cannot be denied - you are the obfuscators-in-chief, everyone can see it. No-one is fooled by you anymore, even DBK has been, for years, trying to nudge you into releasing info in the timeframe you promised, and even he, in these 750+ posts, has been ever more strongly hinting that you need to, you know, answer people. Give answers. Be better. Be honourable! Even DBK knows this perfectly well - we even see that in his reply to Rolanbek in the post directly above this one.
Thank you DBK for trying to keep Waytools honest, I know I have written frustrated messages at you in the past, for which I have apologised for (and am genuinely apologetic about), but I have never missed the fact that, since effectively the beginning, you have genuinely tried to get Waytools to honour the timelines for updated info, and that you (and many other Treggers) have genuinely tried to be helpful in what has been a difficult situation over the last 4+ years.
Dear Waytools_Support, please focus not only on advancing the good news of your progress, but actually advancing your progress. That is the key issue, and we await the truth. Not the truthiness, but the actual truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Please Lord, help Waytools_Support to seriously cut down on (or even eliminate) the smarm and to actually respond and reply to customers past, present and future with genuine charm, to truly kick the development process out of neutral and into gear, may Your hands guide those of Mark and his team to finish the project this year and in this decade - please don't let the 2020's be the years during which TextBlade arrives, instead, Dear Lord, please let 2020 itself be the year that TextBlade THRIVES.
For ever and ever, Amen.
P.S. It is so refreshing to have a forum where, within the AI Forum posting rules, one can post freely, and even get a response from Waytools. Sure, the answers are clearly still not the real ones we want, but at least if AI decides to shadow ban me, it won't have been Waytools_Support doing it, but a genuine, independent third party.
Obviously I do not want to be shadow banned or actually banned, and I don't think I deserve that one bit, but again, it is so refreshing to be able to post freely in a forum without the dreaded Imperial @Waytools banhammer hovering over the fingers that are typing out this message.
A sincere and genuine thanks to AppleInsider for having written the TextBlade article, and for having this forum. I also genuinely and sincerely look forward to thanking Waytools for releasing the TextBlade to retail when that magical moment finally happens.
Thanks also to Waytools_Support who has written more answers in the last few weeks than Waytools_Support has likely written in all of the last four years. It's great to see Waytools being held to account, may it hasten general release for all customers, past, present and future, given an actually available and released Textblade will certainly excite and interest former customers like myself into re-ordering, so the promise of January 2015 will finally be honoured and delivered.
On cue, remarkable case study above. Using one’s writing gifts to spin more narrative, seeking to denigrate anything said at all.
The writer clearly has the intellect to understand the rhetorical reference to “blue skies” above. Yet even this, became fodder for a fresh angle of dig.
Being smart enough to know the difference, necessarily shows intent.
Even the juxtaposed, embedded quote is rewritten - “thwart customers” is whole cloth written by Alex, yet attributed to us as foundation for new critique.
On cue, remarkable case study above. Using one’s writing gifts to spin more narrative, seeking to denigrate anything said at all.
The writer clearly has the intellect to understand the rhetorical reference to “blue skies” above. Yet even this, became fodder for a fresh angle of dig.
Being smart enough to know the difference, necessarily shows intent.
The irony is not lost.
The irony is not lost that the truth hurts you deeply, Waytools_Support.
Were you honourable, you would not again have twisted words, thwarted customers, or pretended that anything I said is the slightest bit wrong.
You said the word “thwart”. It is obvious that you meant critics were trying to thwart people from becoming your customers, given your “Oppo-PR” paranoia.
Saying “thwart customers” was no Freudian slip, it was very deliberate, as it is an extremely accurate description of your very own behaviour! That you wilfully do this is astonishing but it is true.
And, on cue, you have delivered yet another remarkable case study in the way you do business and simply communicate with people!
At least I am a multi-award winning writer and technology journalist, no-one will ever give you an award for PR or customer support.
You may well most genuinely deserve an award for TextBlade, but you need to ship it first! Until then, you win a Gold Medal for obfuscation, delays, rudeness and more.
Please Lord, help Waytools_Support see that the world does not revolve around them, and please help them to learn some humility.
Please help them them to stop responding with such arrogance, please help their developers to finish the job.
Thank you.
PS: As the famous joke goes, what is the difference between God and Waytools_Support?
God doesn’t go around thinking He is Waytools_Support.
God also shipped. In 7 days!
PPS: Your second response mentioned a “new critique”. The critiques are essentially the same and little changed for going on 4+ years now. The answers from you are little-changed too, just more of the same.
Please, please, stop wasting your time with nothing-burger responses, please get back to work!
Make us all happy with actual results, not smarmy, smug comebacks that merely lower your reputation even further.
Edited multiple times to add further reflections upon Mark Knighton’s absolutely astonishing responses - he continues to show us what is under the kimono and it ain’t no cherry blossoms from Mt Fuji.
Also we know the source of Knighton’s bad publicity, it is his own Oppo/bad-PR generator, Waytools_Support!
Here again, Mark Knighton wastes his valuable time:
WayTools_Support said: Here, if we post “blue skies are beautiful”, rabid comments will follow.
Yes, that would be heavily criticized, since its useless unprofessional nonsense that offers your thousands of paid customers no insight into when their merchandise will arrive, which is all we are concerned about.
WayTools_Support said: With every word twisted to spin and thwart, no meaningful conversation flows. By design.
By design? Whose design? Your design? Again I ask: whom do you hold responsible for publicly stating that a product was ready for release 4+ years ago, taking money from thousands of customers, and missing countless shipping deadlines? Whom do you hold responsible for angering and abusing and ultimately severing the relationship with so many people who gave you money in exchange for a product? Which of your paying customers ('Oppo-PR' employed shills) is responsible for all of this?
WayTools_Support said: we’ll focus on advancing the good news of our progress.
Really? Is that what you have been doing here all this time? You are focused on 'advancing the good news'? Of your progress? That is a really odd statement when you contemplate it for a moment. Should we break out the champagne just because you said the word 'progress'?
It is exactly this kind of nonsensical said-nothing that has angered everyone for so long.
You ignored this: Refund all the money. Finish your product. Offer it for sale. Simple. Ethical. Responsible. Try it.
and this: Mark, are you aware of the 'AMA' concept? Why wont you do something like that? Start a thread 'Ask Me Anything', and then answer every question about the product, product status, shipping delays, etc.
You ignored every specific question Arkorott and myself and others have directed at you.
The only thing Mark Knighton cares about is keeping The Money. The Money. The Money.
Please remember that every time you interact with him.
Comments
It is probably appropriate to also point out that some stuff they get criticized for as taking them off the task of getting it ready for shipping have been wrong. Such as the complaints about taking hours to talk to treggers.
Well, it’s true that they do spend hours sometimes on a single call but as is often the case, that only tells part of the story. Typically these calls don’t take place during working hours. Most of mine take place at night. VERY late. A recent one ended after midnight for me - which means it was after 3:00 AM for them! If you look at many of their updates, they have also come late at night. If I get a call during working hours, it is likely because I had a serious problem making using the TB almost impossible- so they needed to get to the bottom of it quickly.
IOW, a lot of what they got criticized for taking away from the main task was actually taking their non-work time to go over things that weren’t emergencies! This is a good thing.
While communication in general could be much better, those of us in Treg can say they have always been hard at work on issues. We may not know how serious a given problem is, but they definitely work hard to solve them.
We also can’t say for sure whether they tried to make it “too good” before shipping - but no one else can really know either. That can include WT since business decisions are not always clear cut. But that has nothing to do with working hard on it.
it comes down to how challenging this system is and what level is decided it has to be at before GR. The challenges are huge but it is hard to make that clear if you haven’t used it. But you might take note that a number of treggers who didn’t think so before changed their minds when they got it.
Which leaves the the question of whether they are making it too good before shipping. There is no way to be sure either way. Just opinions.
So, focusing on what we know at the moment that is relatively new - the old firmware was declared to be good enough, finally. But that still leaves the problem of decent customer support after GR and that requires rewrite to free up space.
Next public item should be the tech update this month (best not to miss it again, WT). Shipping update to Treg would be the next big step. Then cross your fingers that all they learned from the first time means we don’t find lots of problems again!
Firstly, I have not been uncivil. Unless you born in the eighteenth century of course, in which case congratulations on achieving this ripe old age. I shall order some doilies to put under the teapot and wash the antimacassars with best carbolic. That aside, if you have any specific criticism regarding my tone in this thread I suggest you put them in a PM to me and we can discuss them at length there.
If we are to stack your behaviour against mine, I think that I have shown a not inconsiderable amount of restraint. I haven't diagnosed your mental state, advised people coming to this thread not to buy your product, copy pasted a claims footnote, or well anything very much,. I have asked on topic questions regarding the completeness of the bulk items specified in the article in question and many others besides. I have have queries responded to by TREG members with no rancour or unpleasantness. Your first act here was to attack first Ericpeets then shortly after you rounded on me. Even after a simple request for information and a call for peace due to the common ground we as customers-ordinary share with TREG members, your first thought was to immediately attack me again.
I understand that the bloke whose order you cancelled sought legal advice. (He IAAL although this is not his field) He had said that chasing a remedy was probably not worth the effort. I had offered to quietly add another unit to my order, at my own expense, and he just laughed. His assertion was that "California consumer protection is an £$£%ing joke, and that unless you are suing for millions no one cares." I took that as fair warning that legal action halfway across the world over a $99 dollar keyboard was pointless. As you claim specifically that I said on AI that I was retaining my order "to sue" I would like you to link to the post on AI in which I said that and if not link is forth coming for you to admit that is not a thing I have said on AI.
Where precisely on AI have I said it wont ship? I mean we are four years after your original stated ship date, every ship estimate given barring the most recent one has been wrong and that will either be met or not. I have said that you won't ship, and specified that your statement of requiring feature parity between old and new firmware versions is the limiting factor. One assumes due to your lack of response to the others requests for a list of tasks that need to be completed prior to general release that this is the last thing that needs doing? Firmware feature parity, roll out to TREG, GR, in that order. That is what is in the public domain, so how about putting some time frames on those steps? It is not like you have not been asked many times already?
I take great pains to not say "don't buy it", you seem quite capable of driving away custom whatever I might say. When I am asked about your product I show them your posts, and that usually invoke the "wince face" that is normally reserved for when you see someone hit themselves in the 'fork'. I moderate a subreddit full of people who have run afoul of you and your customer service, and ensure that it stays on the right side of proper, for Reddit that is. You make a specific claim that on AI I have said "don't buy it", I would like you to find the post on AI in which I said that and link it in your response, or admit that I did not say it. I hardly think that not wanting you to force a refund is incompatible with wanting the product, is it?
If we are to talk about preceding statements, which is going to be a bad idea considering the Admin note on the thread, one might ask you once again about the many preceding incorrect shipping estimates, the false claims about financial transactions made here and elsewhere, etc.
I cannot fathom whether the manner your misrepresent what I say is due to your lack of grasp of English, that you are responding to multiple people and are just getting muddled, or whether there is malicious intent. I have given you the benefit of the doubt so far, as I am a great believer in not ascribing to malice that which can be explained by error.
Example.
I said
Posting a review link is not a response to that. Is your contention that the TREG members have received the goods specified in the contract of sale between you and them? Because that is counter to the NDA document that they are required to sign on admission to TREG.
You cannot have it both ways dear, either the product is their property to dispose of as they will or it is yours, in which case TREG does not have what they paid for, they have use of a unit on loan from you with clear retention of title and even a misbehaviour clause allowing you to revoke that use. You have specified that TREG units contain a dated token that renders the device unusable after an amount of has elapsed and an action has not being performed (said to be connection to the IOS app for updates).
Is that double negative just you trying to be cute? I ask because one of the many criticisms regarding your communication style is that you are less that clear in what you say and that you take great pains to use phrasing which is obtuse and ambiguous.
In any case I have already read those reviews.
I invite anyone to read my past posts here, on Reddit and on WTF, I especially think the warranty claim one is especially funny. Your mileage may vary, of course. I am at a speaking engagement in the Pasadena area in the summer and you are welcome to attend, you might find some of the anecdotes particularly familiar, if you would like details you can PM me. Or I could come to you? You are still at the same address aren't you? Itinerary permitting of course.
If we miss each each there I am sure you will be in Europe at some point, I am often in the Netherlands and Denmark for work, so I can catch you there if you like?
Equally if you don't want to meet I understand, it's fine, a lot of people find my towering intellect intimid..... [bursts into laughter] well I nearly got through that without laughing. Look if you don't want to meet, that is fine, it's not the first time I have offered to meet, and it won't be the first time you declined (although it was more a lack of response last time, followed shortly by a forum ban.) If you don't want me to be anonymous to you that is fine, but you have you publicly state that you will not cancel my orders.
As last point, regarding your statement that you will respond only if the claims are no longer provocative, the same test and condition lies with you, perhaps you could publicly retract your provocative claims, and then we can get on and discuss the product in a bit of peace. You went through that list of conditions for posting here and noted the section on ad hom's, time for you walk your's back perhaps?
R
I do not think I said stuff that was out of bounds but if you felt "attacked" by anything I said I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.
Just using this venue to to ask questions on the TB and try to get some answers as I cannot do that at WTF as I was (unfairly from my perspective) banned.
Peace.
Let's talk about the TB please:
What can you share on the project status in terms of what are remaining milestones BESIDES the firmware update? (on which you already mentioned you will post an update this month on your site).
edit: typos
I find it distracting and annoying that you complain about anonymity but speak the way you do here using a screen name and writing in the first-person-plural form. I do not believe anyone who claims you are more than one person behind the screen name. Only one person writes as you do. So if you hate anonymity, post with your real name, as Mark Knighton, CEO of Waytools.
The only reason your critics prefer anonymity is so you cannot force cancel their orders. You banned them from your forum and canceled their orders. What do you expect people to do when you treat them so poorly?
It is hard to see any sincerity in the responses of a CEO that lies to its customers about ship dates, takes the money, and refuses to ship a product for 4+ years. This is a point you consistently avoid acknowledging, thus here we go again in circles. Are you not repeating yourself profusely as well?
No matter how carefully you try to phrase it, there it is again: a paranoid and totally unsubstantiated accusation that all of the critics are part of a mystical 'Oppo-PR' campaign (your term), rather than being your legitimately frustrated customers.
You started accusing your customers of being part of the Oppo-PR illuminati as far back as March 2015 (link: http://alturl.com/3qyj5 ), just a couple months after the product was announced. I cant remember how 'officially' late you were at that point, but it obviously was not 4 years. A few weeks or a month perhaps? All the people on that thread had valid criticisms and valid questions, and rather than acknowledge any of them sincerely, you attacked them, and set the tone for all that has followed.
Four years later, where are you? You are in the exact same place. You have not evolved. No product shipped. Same defensive bickering in every reply. Same patronizing antagonistic aggressive attitude towards your customers.
See - this is the thing that has to be repeated for clarity every time you obfuscate it. Anytime you read criticism of Waytools and Mark Knighton, you have got to read it in the context of how incredibly long this has been going on, and how they have behaved so consistently for so long. You can go back in time 4 years, and read every post on their forum where they stated a time frame when they would ship, or when they accused frustrated customers of being paid shills, etc. It is all of the same stuff that you see in this thread. Here we are 4 years later! Waytools still has the money, and still no product shipped!
That is valid stuff to comment on and criticize! I do not believe it is a violation of forum rules (so long as I keep my temper in check) to hammer these points home each time you reply with more obfuscation, or each time you avoid answering any direct question posed by your customers. I am commenting entirely within the scope of the subject matter of the article that preceded all of these comments. The article was about Waytools, and the Textblade, and Mark Knighton, and Mark Knighton is right here, right now, posting in these comments, bickering with people, slandering them with accusations of being 'paid opposition', and making debatable statements about his company and his product, thus inviting critical feedback.
I can certainly understand why Appleinsider might say they have had enough of the whole debacle and lock the thread, but I believe I am using the platform they provide in good faith, commenting sincerely, and trying to stay on topic.
That is correct. I do sincerely believe that your behavior - taking money from people, stating that a product was ready and shipping within weeks, missing 4 years of ship dates, while bickering with and slandering your customers as paid opposition - is entirely the fault of Waytools.
Who else do you think could be held responsible for all of that?
No one in the world understands why you have done all that you have done. It does not make sense to most people, hence all the drama.
That said, what you stated is actually quite false. Scammers use their real identities and real names and real credentials and real reputations all the time to rip people off. It is one of the central tenets of many styles of 'long con'. Bernie Madoff used his real name. He made a 'verifiably good' investment product. Anybody who got in early made millions! Until it all collapsed, his name and reputation were his primary weapon to scam more people out of their money.
Do I think you rise to the same level of mischief as Bernie Madoff? No. Do I think you are potentially of the same mindset? Yes. I believe if you were an ethical and legit business, you would not do as you have done.
I believe you could salvage your reputation by refunding everyone until the product is legitimately ready to ship, and I challenge you to do so.
My signature line was repetitious so I'll stop pasting it.
I was the 165th post on this thread. Many former customers and critical customers and banned-from-your-forum customers preceded my first comment.
Weasel words. You do not give direct answers to any questions. You ignore every specific inquiry directed towards you. The only other type of comment remaining is criticism, and your responses to your critics leave much to be desired. After 4 years, you have not realized what you are doing wrong in the communication department. It is ridiculous and unprofessional and unethical behavior and there is no defending it.
Yeah that sounds like a sweet plan. You want to keep the money, and silence all the critics.
That is not going to happen.
There would be no attacks if you refunded all the money to the people who paid you for a product you have not shipped for 4 years. People would not be mad if you were not playing this carrot and stick game of holding money + offering gift + stating ship date + missing ship date (for 4 years). People would simply forget you exist. And then if you ever finally released a product, they would consider whether or not to purchase again.
Refund all the money. Finish your product. Offer it for sale. Simple. Ethical. Responsible. Try it.
This is a marketing page. Not sure whether they can be construed as ads, which are not allowed. And nothing against TREG folks, but those 'Reviews' are skewed, as they've received a unit, albeit for testing purposes and speaks of only their units (which seems great, by the way).
For the larger majority who haven't received theirs, this is the more general consensus:
https://forum.waytools.com/t/order-delayed-four-times-now-no-explanation-provided-on-blog-twitter-etc/295
So you take offense at anyone who wants to know where their stuff is? Don't you realize EVERYBODY who's your 'customer' wants to know where their stuff is? The vast majority of posts on your forums is just multiple variations of that question -- which you find 'uncivil'.
That is personal matter between you and Rolanbek. Don't drag us all in to act as your judge(s). I suggest you both duke it out elsewhere... as per forum guidelines. Speaking of which...
You only recite just a few. If you're going to recite it at all, you should provide the link to the whole thing:
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/184333/appleinsiders-updated-commenting-guidelines
And you left out the FIRST rule, which I quote:
Yet:
In virtually all your posts, you repeatedly accuse several people of being anonymous users each with MULTIPLE (five of them, according to you) accounts, or alter-egos -- high-fiving one another for what... street creds, post count, was it? All a part of (as yet unamed) cabal out to destroy you. You even accused me of being a part of this anonymous gang. I have nothing against anonymous ID usage (as they do serve a purpose), but how am I anonymous? What part of Eric Peets (ericpeets) or Rolanbek (rolanbek) is anonymous?
And we are not out to get you. For me, I feel morally obligated to provide a balance (from my real world experience) to your marketing messages -- which are at best cryptic, to extremely misleading full of holes that need to be filled. I feel all potential users are entitled to get the whole, complete story before plunking down their $99, which may not be much for some, but a decent chunk of change for others.
Yet you keep making this same accusation over and over even after Mike had reassured us that no such multiple anonymous + alter-egos generating tactics exists.
I won't go over the rest of your statement, or as you said:
Except this:
Speaking of children, answer me this if nothing else. Let's not get into semantics games, simple yes/no + a simple explanation. And I'm asking you Waytools -- not Kahuna or anyone else:
Mark, are you aware of the 'AMA' concept? Why wont you do something like that? Start a thread 'Ask Me Anything', and then answer every question about the product, product status, shipping delays, etc.
Of course you cannot do it on your forum as almost everyone has been banned. But here is another idea: people have been banned or shadow banned (unable to post) at your forum for years. Why not offer some clemency to all of your banned customers and unban everyone? Then you can do an AMA there.
Of course, if anyone goes ballistic, you can always ban them again. So what is the downside?
I think you would find a lot of good faith questions being asked if you demonstrated some good faith efforts to reconnect with people whom you have damaged your relationship with. Until you ship the product your customers paid for, the onus is on you to re-establish credibility and trust.
Lately, that forum is more like the bridge of an Imperial Starship after Darth Vader has gone on one of his Force-choking rampages. Not a lot of strong opinions being shared about the situation.
Guys pls respond. I ask again:
What can you share on the project status in terms of what are remaining milestones BESIDES the firmware update? (on which you already mentioned you will post an update this month on your site).
There was no “unjust” impugning of your work when you consider the 4+ years of unjust delays and the unjust ways in which you have spoken to customers, past, present and future, even in the AI forum.
It also “would be really nice for everyone” if there were Textblades to buy at retail, at Amazon, and the Textbladelays would finally end.
Dear Lord, please help Waytools_Support to take a Dale Carnegie course in how to win friends and influence people, to finish their work, and to get to general release, all without ever once referring to imaginary “Oppo PR” campaigns ever again unless they are talking about how well Textblades work with OPPO phones (and Huaweis, iPhones, Samsungs etc).
Our Keyboard, who art in California,
Textblade be thy name.
Our keyboards come
When deliveries be done
On Earth as it is in Treggen.
Give us this day our daily Textblades
And forgive Waytools their trespasses,
As we forgive Waytools their trespasses against us.
And lead us not into Logitechs,
But deliver us our Textblades,
For it is the king of keyboards,
With the power, and the glory,
When customers can buy it
For ever and ever.
Amen and Awomen who all want Atextblade.
PS It genuinely would be really nice for everyone if you didn’t waste time responding to me, and genuinely really nice if you responded to Arkorott above.
He deserves a response that actually genuinely answers his questions, as opposed to any other kind of answer, and he deserves an answer from you directly, and not anyone else attempting to answer and rationalise on your behalf.
I’ll say “unjust do it” for comedic value, but please, just do it.
Thank you.
Arkorott - per our earlier reply to you, we’ll post news of several exciting advances on our forum. We hope you like it.
Here, if we post “blue skies are beautiful”, rabid comments will follow.
With every word twisted to spin and thwart, no meaningful conversation flows. By design.
So we’ll let them talk to each other, or themselves, as they please.
And we’ll focus on advancing the good news of our progress.
R
I'm sure I could write an award winning article about the TextBlade, but let us all be very clear, no-one wants a "blue skies are beautiful" motherhood statement from you, Waytools_Support, and no-one has asked for that.
We merely want the truth - what are the real "gating" issues preventing general release, what is a realistic timeframe for the development to end, and when do you expect GR to occur? Do you even actually know?
Once you have that, you'll have actual REAL customers who can "talk to each other, or themselves, as they please".
Please let it also be on the record that the true person to "spin and twist every word" and "thwart customers" so that "no meaningful conversation flows, by design", is Waytools_Support. This cannot be denied - you are the obfuscators-in-chief, everyone can see it. No-one is fooled by you anymore, even DBK has been, for years, trying to nudge you into releasing info in the timeframe you promised, and even he, in these 750+ posts, has been ever more strongly hinting that you need to, you know, answer people. Give answers. Be better. Be honourable! Even DBK knows this perfectly well - we even see that in his reply to Rolanbek in the post directly above this one.
Thank you DBK for trying to keep Waytools honest, I know I have written frustrated messages at you in the past, for which I have apologised for (and am genuinely apologetic about), but I have never missed the fact that, since effectively the beginning, you have genuinely tried to get Waytools to honour the timelines for updated info, and that you (and many other Treggers) have genuinely tried to be helpful in what has been a difficult situation over the last 4+ years.
Dear Waytools_Support, please focus not only on advancing the good news of your progress, but actually advancing your progress. That is the key issue, and we await the truth. Not the truthiness, but the actual truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Please Lord, help Waytools_Support to seriously cut down on (or even eliminate) the smarm and to actually respond and reply to customers past, present and future with genuine charm, to truly kick the development process out of neutral and into gear, may Your hands guide those of Mark and his team to finish the project this year and in this decade - please don't let the 2020's be the years during which TextBlade arrives, instead, Dear Lord, please let 2020 itself be the year that TextBlade THRIVES.
For ever and ever, Amen.
P.S. It is so refreshing to have a forum where, within the AI Forum posting rules, one can post freely, and even get a response from Waytools. Sure, the answers are clearly still not the real ones we want, but at least if AI decides to shadow ban me, it won't have been Waytools_Support doing it, but a genuine, independent third party.
Obviously I do not want to be shadow banned or actually banned, and I don't think I deserve that one bit, but again, it is so refreshing to be able to post freely in a forum without the dreaded Imperial @Waytools banhammer hovering over the fingers that are typing out this message.
A sincere and genuine thanks to AppleInsider for having written the TextBlade article, and for having this forum. I also genuinely and sincerely look forward to thanking Waytools for releasing the TextBlade to retail when that magical moment finally happens.
Thanks also to Waytools_Support who has written more answers in the last few weeks than Waytools_Support has likely written in all of the last four years. It's great to see Waytools being held to account, may it hasten general release for all customers, past, present and future, given an actually available and released Textblade will certainly excite and interest former customers like myself into re-ordering, so the promise of January 2015 will finally be honoured and delivered.
Thank you.
The writer clearly has the intellect to understand the rhetorical reference to “blue skies” above. Yet even this, became fodder for a fresh angle of dig.
Being smart enough to know the difference, necessarily shows intent.
The irony is not lost.
Freudian slip.
Were you honourable, you would not again have twisted words, thwarted customers, or pretended that anything I said is the slightest bit wrong.
You said the word “thwart”. It is obvious that you meant critics were trying to thwart people from becoming your customers, given your “Oppo-PR” paranoia.
Saying “thwart customers” was no Freudian slip, it was very deliberate, as it is an extremely accurate description of your very own behaviour! That you wilfully do this is astonishing but it is true.
And, on cue, you have delivered yet another remarkable case study in the way you do business and simply communicate with people!
At least I am a multi-award winning writer and technology journalist, no-one will ever give you an award for PR or customer support.
You may well most genuinely deserve an award for TextBlade, but you need to ship it first! Until then, you win a Gold Medal for obfuscation, delays, rudeness and more.
Please Lord, help Waytools_Support see that the world does not revolve around them, and please help them to learn some humility.
Please help them them to stop responding with such arrogance, please help their developers to finish the job.
Thank you.
PS: As the famous joke goes, what is the difference between God and Waytools_Support?
God doesn’t go around thinking He is Waytools_Support.
God also shipped. In 7 days!
PPS: Your second response mentioned a “new critique”. The critiques are essentially the same and little changed for going on 4+ years now. The answers from you are little-changed too, just more of the same.
Please, please, stop wasting your time with nothing-burger responses, please get back to work!
Make us all happy with actual results, not smarmy, smug comebacks that merely lower your reputation even further.
Edited multiple times to add further reflections upon Mark Knighton’s absolutely astonishing responses - he continues to show us what is under the kimono and it ain’t no cherry blossoms from Mt Fuji.
Also we know the source of Knighton’s bad publicity, it is his own Oppo/bad-PR generator, Waytools_Support!
It is exactly this kind of nonsensical said-nothing that has angered everyone for so long.
You ignored this:
Refund all the money. Finish your product. Offer it for sale. Simple. Ethical. Responsible. Try it.
and this:
Mark, are you aware of the 'AMA' concept? Why wont you do something like that? Start a thread 'Ask Me Anything', and then answer every question about the product, product status, shipping delays, etc.
You ignored every specific question Arkorott and myself and others have directed at you.
The only thing Mark Knighton cares about is keeping The Money. The Money. The Money.
Please remember that every time you interact with him.