This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
I just don’t understand the “thank goodness” “finally” “long time coming” posts as if this rumor is the gospel truth. What kind of personal RDF is that? You want it so you believe it’s true? And what if it’s not true and new MacBooks still have the butterfly keyboards when released?
Bottom line is even if the keyboard changes there will be bitching and moaning over whatever replaces it.
I'm excited because I feel like I can upgrade from my 2015 MBP next year and not get stuck with a lemon. I never wanted to be a Beta Tester which is what Apple has been doing with their customers for the last 4 years.
And undoubtedly you will be around to attack anyone who has an issue with an Apple product. Not everyone is required to sing Hosanna at everything Apple does. But this like the MP and macOS are signs that Apple is on its way back to building good computers that actually function and not just sit there looking cute.
I've wanted a MacBook as a travel machine since it arrived in 2015 but I wasn't a fan of the keyboard so held off. My Early 2011 15" MacBook Pro failed and so I ended up buying a new one in 2017 with the butterfly keyboard. The primary way we interact with our laptops is through the screen, while the keyboard is the primary way we interact with our laptop by touch. I've tried to get used to the butterfly keys, really really tried and yet it just doesn't work for me. I find it to be a horrible typing experience so my very expensive, beautiful, powerful MacBook Pro now sits in a cradle in my office connected to a giant monitor and an apple chiclet keyboard so that I can at least love it when I'm sitting at my desk at home... which never happens these days.
When I travel, I find my self taking my Surface Pro, it has a nice primary interaction (screen) and a decent primary touch (keyboard) but the rest is not that great in my opinion. However, it'll do for travel. I'd much rather be toting a beautiful, powerful, Macintosh portable that I can love. I want it to be like the old days when it thrilled the senses, including touch. The screens are amazing, the sound experience is impressive, Macs even have a certain smell to them! A different keyboard will make them feel amazing. I'm not licking my laptop but hitting the other three will make it delicious indeed.
Apple, please bring back an option for the chiclet keyboard or an alternative to the current Butterly keyboard.
I have both a Surface Pro (gen5) and a iPadPro. There are definitely some nice features about the SP such as the kickstand and both touch and keyboard interface but the iPP just feels faster to use. Microsoft;s power adapters and dock are too heavy; They should make some as good as Apples even if it costs more. I'm thrilled with the new macOS coming and expect that in a few (3-5) years iPadOS with support mouse fully.
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
No. That is impossible.
Rogifan read the article that contained the rumour and participated in the thread.
"Reportedly, thousands of the $10,000 gold edition of the Apple Watch remained unsold. Overall, WSJ says that Apple sold around 10 million Apple Watches in the first year -- but that this was a quarter of what they'd expected. "
No need then, to ask about the source of the rumour. Rogifan was well aware of that.
Also, my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either.
As I said, I didn't mention any rumours on Apple Watch and round faces (although they exist too).
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
I think where they are confused is that they are conflating the fact that Apple is the largest single smart watch manufacturer with the fact that they still have a minority share of the entire market -- particularly if you broaden it out to include semi-smart devices such as FitBits.
Plus, some people like to shoot first and think later.
I echo Henrybay... Apple should replace the butterfly keyboard ASAP and banish them completely from the line!
I know I wouldn't buy a 'butterfly' Mac or keyboard. And I'm an 'Apple Guy.'
And let's make the MBP a bit thicker, now that Jony is history, to allow for some more ports so I don't have to carry dongles. I don't mind a solid piece of hardware for my hard-earned money.
I agree.
There is no way I would buy a butterfly keyboard laptop -- the keys suck then they fail. And I can buy a whole new Windows laptop for the cost of repairing the stupid thing.
And I also agree with a thicker laptop -- well, sort of. I wouldn't recommend making all existing MacBooks thicker. Rather I would recommend that Apple put out a new series of "full function" laptops with high end keyboards (with actual travel!), full ports and a 15"-17" screen -- basically a workstation that can travel when/if needed. Think about it: The only thing unique about any MacBook is the OS and Apple's ecosystem -- everything else is essentially off-the-shelf hardware and easily designed and produced. ... Thin and light are nice and are needed by some, but they also introduce inherent limitations.
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
Get rid of of these awful things!! They are so bad Iran unbelievable. Burn them, destroy the plans for them and erase them from history. Broken the moment they are made.
They should never of existed and it’s shame on Apple they’ve lasted so long.
If they actually get ride of these it will be fantastic. I’ve gone back to my top spec previous generation but it’s getting long in the tooth. I miss Touch ID from the new machines, but can’t live with the lack of MagSafe, Keyboards, Touchbar Escape key etc. This would level the playing field massively and make an upgrade something I’d consider.
I would also not be concerned rolling out upgrades now. Knowing they won’t be coming back throughout the whole life and eventually killing the machine early once it’s out of warranty.
Keep fixing these issues Apple!!
Next, a non XDR Pro screen and you really are giving us what we want!
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
No. That is impossible.
Rogifan read the article that contained the rumour and participated in the thread.
"Reportedly, thousands of the $10,000 gold edition of the Apple Watch remained unsold. Overall, WSJ says that Apple sold around 10 million Apple Watches in the first year -- but that this was a quarter of what they'd expected. "
No need then, to ask about the source of the rumour. Rogifan was well aware of that.
Also, my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either.
As I said, I didn't mention any rumours on Apple Watch and round faces (although they exist too).
Oh, you’re talking about one edition of watch released 4 years ago that nobody thought would sell. Gotcha. But takes it into context of what you wrote
”The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
..that doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying people haven’t come around to non-watch faces and then quote the rumor of the original Apple Watch sold 4 years ago as evidence????
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
No. That is impossible.
Rogifan read the article that contained the rumour and participated in the thread.
"Reportedly, thousands of the $10,000 gold edition of the Apple Watch remained unsold. Overall, WSJ says that Apple sold around 10 million Apple Watches in the first year -- but that this was a quarter of what they'd expected. "
No need then, to ask about the source of the rumour. Rogifan was well aware of that.
Also, my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either.
As I said, I didn't mention any rumours on Apple Watch and round faces (although they exist too).
Oh, you’re talking about one edition of watch released 4 years ago that nobody thought would sell. Gotcha. But takes it into context of what you wrote
”The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
..that doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying people haven’t come around to non-watch faces and then quote the rumor of the original Apple Watch sold 4 years ago as evidence????
No.
It's far simpler than that. Here's a recap:
I said: 'the biggest problem seems to be'.
It's an opinion. I don't know. Nor do I profess to (as I also stated above).
However, the opinion is based on an article I read a little while back. The link provided might be that article. The article (from last month) reports the following:
"Apple will remain largely unchallenged in smartwatches. Apple is expected to retain 25.9% of the market by 2023, only slightly down on the 27.4% share the firm estimated in March."
That seems to point to the majority of smartwatches being non-Apple (non rectangular). That was where the initial point originated and that point was the sole point of focus. Can you provide any information on that? Chadbag suggest a 50% approx share of smartwatches for Apple.
The other reference you are now quoting was a supporting point, not the focus point. Completely secondary. I even clarified that:
"All my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either."
Crystal clear.
It doesn't matter which year or model was included in the rumour. The point was that sales supposedly fell well below what Apple expected, which makes your claim of 'nobody thought [Apple Watch] would sell well' nonsensical because you are arguing against the rumour with nothing to support it (not even a rumour). Or do you categorically know that subsequent sales met or exceeded expectations?
The takeaway from your affirmation, though, is that 'nobody' obviously didn't include Apple itself!
But isn't it time to get back to butterfly keyboards?
Hopefully they also put back in MagSafe and an escape key
Agreed, I miss the MagSafe but am now liking the additional(?) TB3/USB-C port. I think Apple did the right thing by going to that standard. There are USB-C "MagSafe" adapters that have pretty good reviews. I waffle between buying one and then deciding I don't need it. If Apple did something like a recessed USB-C/MageSafe adapter so it would be flush, that would be interesting, but I doubt that'll happen.
What’s the problem for that? It’s small, reversible and don’t take the bandwidth. MagSafe is proprietary, clunky in comparison, and isn’t that reliable too.
I loved the MagSafe connector on my 2011 MBA. the only issue was I had to replace the cord after 7 years - I consider that an acceptable lifespan for a power cable.
MagSafe was quintessential Apple design - beautifully executed, functional, and it just worked. I have 4 USB C ports on my 2017 MBP. The majority of the time I only use one to charge. Or to plug in a USB A adaptor. I'd be willing to bet that there are exceedingly few users that actually need 4 USB C ports. The only advantage of USB C is that you can plug in from either side. In every other aspect, the MagSafe connector was better.
I've seen the adaptor you list above, my concern (perhaps unfounded) is that it would catch on things as I slide my computer in/out of my bag, straining or breaking the USB C port.
Another big advantage of USB-C over Magsafe is it's an interoperable standard. Only Apple can legally make Magsafe connectors, and they only make said connectors integrated into the power adapter. With USB-C for charging, you can get the charger from many vendors, and most chargers allow for separate cables. If the cable wears out, you just replace the cable.
As for the durability concerns of an adapter such as the one above, Apple's USB-C and Thunderbolt ports are actually pretty good in that regard. USB-C has a male-in-female receptacle, and a female-in-male plug. This lets Apple build the receptacle out of the casing of the laptop. That part is as durable as any port is ever likely to be. They can then include the more-delicate contacts inside, where the laptop casing prevents them from receiving much torque. I wouldn't be too worried.
Considering the premium price Apple charges for keyboards and laptops, cutting costs should not be a consideration. $100 for a wireless keyboard and $30 more for a number pad?
Glad I kept my Logitech BT illuminated Mac keyboard (K811).
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
No. That is impossible.
Rogifan read the article that contained the rumour and participated in the thread.
"Reportedly, thousands of the $10,000 gold edition of the Apple Watch remained unsold. Overall, WSJ says that Apple sold around 10 million Apple Watches in the first year -- but that this was a quarter of what they'd expected. "
No need then, to ask about the source of the rumour. Rogifan was well aware of that.
Also, my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either.
As I said, I didn't mention any rumours on Apple Watch and round faces (although they exist too).
Oh, you’re talking about one edition of watch released 4 years ago that nobody thought would sell. Gotcha. But takes it into context of what you wrote
”The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
..that doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying people haven’t come around to non-watch faces and then quote the rumor of the original Apple Watch sold 4 years ago as evidence
It doesn't matter which year or model was included in the rumour. The point was that sales supposedly fell well below what Apple expected, which makes your claim of 'nobody thought [Apple Watch] would sell well' nonsensical because you are arguing against the rumour with nothing to support it (not even a rumour). Or do you categorically know that subsequent sales met or exceeded expectations?
The takeaway from your affirmation, though, is that 'nobody' obviously didn't include Apple itself!
But isn't it time to get back to butterfly keyboards?
Well, it does because you said people haven’t come around to it, implying present term so quoting a rumor of sale of an original Apple Watch launched 4 years ago - of an Edition that no one predict will sell no less - is very weird logic to says the least. If you don’t understand why that is weird then you have more problem than I initially think.
Oh and I didn’t claim “nobody thought Apple Watch would sell well”. Please quote me directly where I said that. I said “nobody thought that Apple Watch Edition would sell well”. Very big difference, like an Atlantic Ocean big. Did you even know what Watch the rumor you quoted talking about?
I echo Henrybay... Apple should replace the butterfly keyboard ASAP and banish them completely from the line!
I know I wouldn't buy a 'butterfly' Mac or keyboard. And I'm an 'Apple Guy.'
And let's make the MBP a bit thicker, now that Jony is history, to allow for some more ports so I don't have to carry dongles. I don't mind a solid piece of hardware for my hard-earned money.
I agree.
There is no way I would buy a butterfly keyboard laptop -- the keys suck then they fail. And I can buy a whole new Windows laptop for the cost of repairing the stupid thing.
And I also agree with a thicker laptop -- well, sort of. I wouldn't recommend making all existing MacBooks thicker. Rather I would recommend that Apple put out a new series of "full function" laptops with high end keyboards (with actual travel!), full ports and a 15"-17" screen -- basically a workstation that can travel when/if needed. Think about it: The only thing unique about any MacBook is the OS and Apple's ecosystem -- everything else is essentially off-the-shelf hardware and easily designed and produced. ... Thin and light are nice and are needed by some, but they also introduce inherent limitations.
If adding an additional mm to the MBP meant it had a more reliable keyboard (or even one that could be separately replaced) I'd be all for it. Doing so wouldn't necessarily add significantly to the weight but would improve the repairability and longevity. Like I said above, I suspect Apple didn't switch to the butterfly mechanism because it was better, rather because it was thinner and they could cut a mm off the thickness (or add that much. more battery, since what people care about is battery life.) That would explain the claims that the butterfly keyboard is more expensive, too. Unfortunately, what we ended up with was a premium laptop with a critical component that is subpar and impossible to replace without doing major surgery on the device.
This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models.
I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?
I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
What’s your source for this?
Certainly not Apple.
Why on earth would I turn to Apple for the answer?
Of course not!
What is strange is that I provided a link to where the information probably came from so you know it wasn't Apple.
Because Apple is the only one who has the answer.
Here is the original question again:
"Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?"
To which Rogifan asked for a source.
I gave one.
The off topic point basically ended there, but...
You chime in with the source certainly wasn't Apple.
I asked why the source would be Apple.
You reply with 'because Apple is the only one who has the answer'.
I'm going to leave things as they are because there is no point taking things further and It is not butterfly keyboard related.
I think @rogifan question for source is more likely from this sentence of yours “So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
No. That is impossible.
Rogifan read the article that contained the rumour and participated in the thread.
"Reportedly, thousands of the $10,000 gold edition of the Apple Watch remained unsold. Overall, WSJ says that Apple sold around 10 million Apple Watches in the first year -- but that this was a quarter of what they'd expected. "
No need then, to ask about the source of the rumour. Rogifan was well aware of that.
Also, my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either.
As I said, I didn't mention any rumours on Apple Watch and round faces (although they exist too).
Oh, you’re talking about one edition of watch released 4 years ago that nobody thought would sell. Gotcha. But takes it into context of what you wrote
”The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
..that doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying people haven’t come around to non-watch faces and then quote the rumor of the original Apple Watch sold 4 years ago as evidence
It doesn't matter which year or model was included in the rumour. The point was that sales supposedly fell well below what Apple expected, which makes your claim of 'nobody thought [Apple Watch] would sell well' nonsensical because you are arguing against the rumour with nothing to support it (not even a rumour). Or do you categorically know that subsequent sales met or exceeded expectations?
The takeaway from your affirmation, though, is that 'nobody' obviously didn't include Apple itself!
But isn't it time to get back to butterfly keyboards?
Well, it does because you said people haven’t come around to it, implying present term so quoting a rumor of sale of an original Apple Watch launched 4 years ago - of an Edition that no one predict will sell no less - is very weird logic to says the least. If you don’t understand why that is weird then you have more problem than I initially think.
Oh and I didn’t claim “nobody thought Apple Watch would sell well”. Please quote me directly where I said that. I think you’re talking way out of your league here. In simple English you’re talking about something you simply didn’t have a clue about. Maybe that’s why your logic here is very weird to me. I said “nobody thought that Apple Watch Edition would sell well”. Very big difference, like an Atlantic Ocean big.
You are correct on one thing: I have very little interest in Apple Watch but, as I said multiple times already, I have little interest in any watches. I don't wear them.
With that in mind perhaps you will make sure to capitalise 'Edition' in the future to avoid confusion because that is where the confusion began. It doesn't change my reference to your 'nobody thought it would sell' claim (independently of the model) as Apple supposedly DID think it would sell.
However, that side is irrelevant, (in spite of the rumour supporting that sales of Apple Watch falling well short of expectations). It simply wasn't the point being made. Either way there is nothing to suggest it still isn't the case and sales may still be falling short of internal expectations. It simply isn't known. Or do you have that information?
I didn't say 'people haven't come round it'. I said people don't - seem - to have come round to it and I mentioned why AND I highlighted that reference to 'seem' further up. Why do you think I asked the question in the first place?
If I had that information I would definitely have omitted 'seem'.
That was the point and I asked you if you had any information on that point.
Right. We don't know the exact numbers but Apple has about 50% marketshare. If you include "irrelevant" Fitbit than about 60% of all smartwatches are square faced.
The problem is Avon tried to sneakily bash Apple Watch on a Macbook keyboard article and it backfired. Now he's moving the goalposts all over the place and asking everyone to go back to talking about the keyboard after HE'S the one who pushed the discussion toward Apple Watch. lol
I echo Henrybay... Apple should replace the butterfly keyboard ASAP and banish them completely from the line!
I know I wouldn't buy a 'butterfly' Mac or keyboard. And I'm an 'Apple Guy.'
And let's make the MBP a bit thicker, now that Jony is history, to allow for some more ports so I don't have to carry dongles. I don't mind a solid piece of hardware for my hard-earned money.
I agree.
There is no way I would buy a butterfly keyboard laptop -- the keys suck then they fail. And I can buy a whole new Windows laptop for the cost of repairing the stupid thing.
And I also agree with a thicker laptop -- well, sort of. I wouldn't recommend making all existing MacBooks thicker. Rather I would recommend that Apple put out a new series of "full function" laptops with high end keyboards (with actual travel!), full ports and a 15"-17" screen -- basically a workstation that can travel when/if needed. Think about it: The only thing unique about any MacBook is the OS and Apple's ecosystem -- everything else is essentially off-the-shelf hardware and easily designed and produced. ... Thin and light are nice and are needed by some, but they also introduce inherent limitations.
If adding an additional mm to the MBP meant it had a more reliable keyboard (or even one that could be separately replaced) I'd be all for it. Doing so wouldn't necessarily add significantly to the weight but would improve the repairability and longevity. Like I said above, I suspect Apple didn't switch to the butterfly mechanism because it was better, rather because it was thinner and they could cut a mm off the thickness (or add that much. more battery, since what people care about is battery life.) That would explain the claims that the butterfly keyboard is more expensive, too. Unfortunately, what we ended up with was a premium laptop with a critical component that is subpar and impossible to replace without doing major surgery on the device.
John Gruber claims there were leaks from inside the company that Ive was responsible for the keyboard. Even if he pushed for it the fact the the company shipped it (either believing it was good enough to ship or not doing proper testing to find out there were problems) is a failure leadership up and down the line. Dan Riccio runs Mac engineering. Jeff Williams runs operations. One would assume employees in their orgs were involved in engineering and manufacturing this keyboard. Did they just not do enough QA testing? I have a hard time believing anyone (including Ive) would intentionally sign off on a keyboard they knew was defective. So the only conclusion I can come to is the testing they did wasn’t good enough and didn’t catch problems. And that blame can be laid at the feet of many executives, including Tim Cook. As CEO the buck stops with him.
Hopefully they also put back in MagSafe and an escape key
Agreed, I miss the MagSafe but am now liking the additional(?) TB3/USB-C port. I think Apple did the right thing by going to that standard. There are USB-C "MagSafe" adapters that have pretty good reviews. I waffle between buying one and then deciding I don't need it. If Apple did something like a recessed USB-C/MageSafe adapter so it would be flush, that would be interesting, but I doubt that'll happen.
What’s the problem for that? It’s small, reversible and don’t take the bandwidth. MagSafe is proprietary, clunky in comparison, and isn’t that reliable too.
I loved the MagSafe connector on my 2011 MBA. the only issue was I had to replace the cord after 7 years - I consider that an acceptable lifespan for a power cable.
MagSafe was quintessential Apple design - beautifully executed, functional, and it just worked. I have 4 USB C ports on my 2017 MBP. The majority of the time I only use one to charge. Or to plug in a USB A adaptor. I'd be willing to bet that there are exceedingly few users that actually need 4 USB C ports. The only advantage of USB C is that you can plug in from either side. In every other aspect, the MagSafe connector was better.
I've seen the adaptor you list above, my concern (perhaps unfounded) is that it would catch on things as I slide my computer in/out of my bag, straining or breaking the USB C port.
They already have the smart connector on the iPad that could be a MagSafe power connector across the range.
Now take the waveguide patent that was talked about a week or so ago. Work the intel build that in to iPad smart connector call it thunderbolt 4. Leave USB c as it is.
Comments
“So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.”
No one will doubt that cheap smart watch could dominate market share :roll eyes:
And undoubtedly you will be around to attack anyone who has an issue with an Apple product. Not everyone is required to sing Hosanna at everything Apple does. But this like the MP and macOS are signs that Apple is on its way back to building good computers that actually function and not just sit there looking cute.
https://dazeinfo.com/2019/03/01/global-smartwatch-market-apple-fitbit-samsung-2018/
Rogifan read the article that contained the rumour and participated in the thread.
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211809/jony-ives-departure-follows-years-of-dissatisfaction-and-absenteeism/p1
From the article:
"Reportedly, thousands of the $10,000 gold edition of the Apple Watch remained unsold. Overall, WSJ says that Apple sold around 10 million Apple Watches in the first year -- but that this was a quarter of what they'd expected. "
No need then, to ask about the source of the rumour. Rogifan was well aware of that.
Also, my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either.
As I said, I didn't mention any rumours on Apple Watch and round faces (although they exist too).
Plus, some people like to shoot first and think later.
And I also agree with a thicker laptop -- well, sort of. I wouldn't recommend making all existing MacBooks thicker. Rather I would recommend that Apple put out a new series of "full function" laptops with high end keyboards (with actual travel!), full ports and a 15"-17" screen -- basically a workstation that can travel when/if needed. Think about it: The only thing unique about any MacBook is the OS and Apple's ecosystem -- everything else is essentially off-the-shelf hardware and easily designed and produced.
... Thin and light are nice and are needed by some, but they also introduce inherent limitations.
Get rid of of these awful things!! They are so bad Iran unbelievable. Burn them, destroy the plans for them and erase them from history. Broken the moment they are made.
They should never of existed and it’s shame on Apple they’ve lasted so long.
If they actually get ride of these it will be fantastic. I’ve gone back to my top spec previous generation but it’s getting long in the tooth. I miss Touch ID from the new machines, but can’t live with the lack of MagSafe, Keyboards, Touchbar Escape key etc. This would level the playing field massively and make an upgrade something I’d consider.
I would also not be concerned rolling out upgrades now. Knowing they won’t be coming back throughout the whole life and eventually killing the machine early once it’s out of warranty.
Keep fixing these issues Apple!!
Next, a non XDR Pro screen and you really are giving us what we want!
But takes it into context of what you wrote
..that doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying people haven’t come around to non-watch faces and then quote the rumor of the original Apple Watch sold 4 years ago as evidence????
It's far simpler than that. Here's a recap:
I said: 'the biggest problem seems to be'.
It's an opinion. I don't know. Nor do I profess to (as I also stated above).
However, the opinion is based on an article I read a little while back. The link provided might be that article. The article (from last month) reports the following:
"Apple will remain largely unchallenged in smartwatches. Apple is expected to retain 25.9% of the market by 2023, only slightly down on the 27.4% share the firm estimated in March."
That seems to point to the majority of smartwatches being non-Apple (non rectangular). That was where the initial point originated and that point was the sole point of focus. Can you provide any information on that? Chadbag suggest a 50% approx share of smartwatches for Apple.
The other reference you are now quoting was
a supporting point, not the focus point. Completely secondary. I even clarified that:
"All my comment on that rumour was simply a supporting reference. Not key to the issue I was speaking on which was purely simply round faces. And 'cheap vs expensive' wasn't key either."
Crystal clear.
It doesn't matter which year or model was included in the rumour. The point was that sales supposedly fell well below what Apple expected, which makes your claim of 'nobody thought [Apple Watch] would sell well' nonsensical because you are arguing against the rumour with nothing to support it (not even a rumour). Or do you categorically know that subsequent sales met or exceeded expectations?
The takeaway from your affirmation, though,
is that 'nobody' obviously didn't include Apple itself!
But isn't it time to get back to butterfly keyboards?
As for the durability concerns of an adapter such as the one above, Apple's USB-C and Thunderbolt ports are actually pretty good in that regard. USB-C has a male-in-female receptacle, and a female-in-male plug. This lets Apple build the receptacle out of the casing of the laptop. That part is as durable as any port is ever likely to be. They can then include the more-delicate contacts inside, where the laptop casing prevents them from receiving much torque. I wouldn't be too worried.
Glad I kept my Logitech BT illuminated Mac keyboard (K811).
Oh and I didn’t claim “nobody thought Apple Watch would sell well”. Please quote me directly where I said that. I said “nobody thought that Apple Watch Edition would sell well”. Very big difference, like an Atlantic Ocean big.
Did you even know what Watch the rumor you quoted talking about?
With that in mind perhaps you will make sure to capitalise 'Edition' in the future to avoid confusion because that is where the confusion began. It doesn't change my reference to your 'nobody thought it would sell' claim (independently of the model) as Apple supposedly DID think it would sell.
However, that side is irrelevant, (in spite of the rumour supporting that sales of Apple Watch falling well short of expectations). It simply wasn't the point being made. Either way there is nothing to suggest it still isn't the case and sales may still be falling short of internal expectations. It simply isn't known. Or do you have that information?
I didn't say 'people haven't come round it'. I said people don't - seem - to have come round to it and I mentioned why AND I highlighted that reference to 'seem' further up. Why do you think I asked the question in the first place?
If I had that information I would definitely have omitted 'seem'.
That was the point and I asked you if you had any information on that point.
The problem is Avon tried to sneakily bash Apple Watch on a Macbook keyboard article and it backfired. Now he's moving the goalposts all over the place and asking everyone to go back to talking about the keyboard after HE'S the one who pushed the discussion toward Apple Watch. lol
Now take the waveguide patent that was talked about a week or so ago. Work the intel build that in to iPad smart connector call it thunderbolt 4. Leave USB c as it is.