Apple threatens to close Epic Games developer account on Aug. 28

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  • Reply 81 of 111
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    polymnia said:

    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.

    ...

    Although they are the owner of Unreal Engine, there are less than fifteen iOS games developed with it, according to Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

    A recent mainstream game for the Mac is Borderlands 3, but it requires a graphics card of 8 GB on the Mac ! What a game engine is that !

    So not many people will miss them once they are gone, and the whole affair will be forgotten in a couple of months even in the blogosphere that feeds it and life will continue as usual...
    The Wikipedia article is just showing a few examples.  There are 1000s of games using the engine.  It is very popular for both Indies and big studios.
    I wonder what Epic charges for an Unreal license? Is it (mostly) free if the licensee doesn’t charge for the software using Unreal? Is it a % of sales if the resulting software is purchased?
    If I remember correctly Unreal is free below 1 million revenue and 5% of revenue above that.
    And if you want to sell your stuff in their store they want 12%, which might be what it costs to host.
    edited August 2020 polymniawatto_cobra
  • Reply 82 of 111
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    johnbear said:
    georgie01 said:
    It’s hilarious and pathetic to see Epic complain they have to pay Apple to use their App Store and then complain they won’t have access to Apple’s freely provided development tools. Why do they think they deserve these things for free? That’s so infantile and entitled. As long as they aren’t developing their own platform and building the devices their work needs and building a huge customer base with that work, then their perspective is childish and arrogant.
    A small percentage is fair but Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them.
    imagine Visa and MasterCard charging 30% per transaction for using their system;)
    Apple does more. It reviews the apps and has a curated store in multiple languages where 80% of apps are free. The free stuff, curation and app review are what makes it appealing to the users. But all that has to be paid for by those making money.
    The big guys like Epic and Microsoft don't benefit form any of that so they don't want to pay.

    Or, it could be that it's not about the money at all for Apple. It's about control. They don't want to cede control over their customers to others, as they would be doing by allowing Epic and xCloud on their platform. Microsoft might have been ready to talk money with Apple, but Apple was not interested because Microsoft has nothing Apple wants, they already have more money than they can sensibly spend.

    It looks like Apple cares about money, but maybe they just care of being in control of their own destiny.
    If you are in control and execute competently, money will follow.

    edited August 2020 tmayGG1FileMakerFellerwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 83 of 111
    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.

    ...

    Although they are the owner of Unreal Engine, there are less than fifteen iOS games developed with it, according to Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

    A recent mainstream game for the Mac is Borderlands 3, but it requires a graphics card of 8 GB on the Mac ! What a game engine is that !

    So not many people will miss them once they are gone, and the whole affair will be forgotten in a couple of months even in the blogosphere that feeds it and life will continue as usual...
    I count 41 games on that list alone and it's not even complete as mentioned before.
  • Reply 84 of 111
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    NinjaMan said:
    ...they could easily come to the table and work with developers on adapting their policies...
    You know this how?
    Epic wants to run their own store.
    Who else should get this if Epic does? "Everyone" would make the most sense.

    Apple will be left with the free and low revenue apps.
    Not a sustainable business.
    edited August 2020 watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 85 of 111
    Beats said:
    "This is consistent with Epic's experience, as the average iOS Fortnite user spends significantly more on in-app purchases than the average Android Fortnite user. iOS users are therefore a "must have" market for app developers to compete in; an app developer that chooses to develop apps for Android but not iOS forgoes the opportunity to reach over one billion high-paying app users."
    So they're saying that:
    A. iOS harms consumers because it only has a single store
    AND ALSO
    B. Don't force us to rely on Android and it's choice of stores because people spend less money
    FileMakerFellerRayz2016watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 86 of 111
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,541member
    johnbear said:
    Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them 
    Just by reading the examples you are using as an analogy to Apple 30% cut, you don't have a clue. Time to buy a vowel. Ask the audience. Phone a friend. Stop and ask  for directions. Do something. 

    Say that you have an electronic product that you want to sell at Best Buy. You want to want to sell it for $100 because your research say that that's about what most BB shoppers will be willing to pay for it. Now, do you actually think that Best Buy will put your product on their shelves for their customers to sees, advertise your product in the store and in their ads, handle the sale, collect the sales tax on your product and then just keep $5 and give you $95 for each sale?

    In retail, you'll be lucky if you got $50 for every $100 sale. If $50 does't cover your cost or too small of a profit to make it worth while, then you need to charge more for it or find another way to sell your product that don't involve having to pay a commission to access other companies customers. Like opening your own store, have a garage sale, at the flea market, etc.. Maybe you can find a store that will give you your $95 and keep a $5 commission. Like the 7-Eleven, a gas station mini-mart., the Dollar Store, etc. But good luck selling any of your $100  electronic product to those customers.  

    Plus the reason why Visa only charges 3% of the sale is because Visa can not take any of the credit for store customers buying any of the items being charged. Those customers belong to the store where the charges are being made and they could very well pay with a MasterCard, Discover Card, a store Card, American Express, etc. and cash. Take Visa out of the equation and the store can still make the sale.   

    But Apple, Google, MS, Sony and Nintendo can all claim that without them, Epic could not make the sales. If Epic want access to the customers on  iOS/Android mobile devices, X-Box, PlayStation and Switch, they have to pay a commission on each sale to those customers. And the going rate is 30%. Even the Mafia would find that reasonable.  

    Now Epic might be able to ink out a limited license where they pay a one time fee and then get keep all the sales, for how ever long the license last. But if the sales aren't as expected, then they could lose money big time. With a commission, there's no risk as Epic is paying with money they already made. And they will make 70% of the sale.

    The music industry use to whine and cry ...."extortion"..., at iTunes 30% cut. They claim they could not make money under iTunes 70/30 term. But digital download purchases ended up saving the music industry and they are still paying the 30% cut to Apple (and other online digital download venders), but are no longer whining about it.  
    edited August 2020 muthuk_vanalingampscooter63FileMakerFellerwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 87 of 111
    kbeekbee Posts: 24member
    Beside the fact that I don't like Epic - I'm crossing my fingers hoping that Epic wins. 30% was once reasonable in the beginning - nowadays it is just a sign that there is something wrong with the AppStore and that there is no competition. Apple is clearly abusing its dominance and by the way as far as I can see when your software costs $5,99 on the AppStore you are not allowed to sell it for $4,99 somewhere else.
    If Apple is sued to pay back all the money it pirated over the last years - this would be a huge pay check for me (just dreamin) ... Go Epic!!!
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 88 of 111
    PezaPeza Posts: 198member
    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.




    Yes, yes they will, but if Apple wants to shoot it’s own foot off to carry on with its hypocritical store rules that’s up to them, I’m sure the EU investigation will tell them what to do if they want to continue trading in Europe, no doubt the Apple fans will just claim Apple doesn’t need Europe, yeah it doesn’t need billions in profit.
  • Reply 89 of 111
    PezaPeza Posts: 198member
    Beats said:
    tyler82 said:
    Apple is on the wrong side of this battle. 

    Yeah Apple should just bend over and take the abuse.

    Also I wanna have a yard sale in your nice property but I don't wanna pay you sh**! What's your address?
    Well now that depends, if you draw thousands of customers then I’m sure we can come to an arrangement, if it’s only a few hundred then it’s a standard 30% charge of all your takings I’m afraid.
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 90 of 111
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    Peza said:
    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.




    Yes, yes they will, but if Apple wants to shoot it’s own foot off to carry on with its hypocritical store rules that’s up to them, I’m sure the EU investigation will tell them what to do if they want to continue trading in Europe, no doubt the Apple fans will just claim Apple doesn’t need Europe, yeah it doesn’t need billions in profit.
    The EU politicians, like all politicians everywhere else, will do nothing at all or something dumb that doesn't work, or something that works for a problem that no longer exists when they finally get round to doing something. Don't get your hopes up.
    FileMakerFellerRayz2016watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 91 of 111
    Rayz2016 said:

    Nope, enough of these hypocrites (can I create my own store on Fortnite? I doubt it) trying to look like victims.

    Excellent point. Apple should demand the right to offer in-app purchases within Fortnite that directly compete with Epic’s own in-app offerings, and see what kind of agreement Epic draws up. After all, Apple sells their own games but also allows competitors to sell games in the App Store that they created, promoted, etc.
    watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 92 of 111
    polymniapolymnia Posts: 1,061member
    polymnia said:

    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.

    ...

    Although they are the owner of Unreal Engine, there are less than fifteen iOS games developed with it, according to Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

    A recent mainstream game for the Mac is Borderlands 3, but it requires a graphics card of 8 GB on the Mac ! What a game engine is that !

    So not many people will miss them once they are gone, and the whole affair will be forgotten in a couple of months even in the blogosphere that feeds it and life will continue as usual...
    The Wikipedia article is just showing a few examples.  There are 1000s of games using the engine.  It is very popular for both Indies and big studios.
    I wonder what Epic charges for an Unreal license? Is it (mostly) free if the licensee doesn’t charge for the software using Unreal? Is it a % of sales if the resulting software is purchased?
    If I remember correctly Unreal is free below 1 million revenue and 5% of revenue above that.
    And if you want to sell your stuff in their store they want 12%, which might be what it costs to host.
    That is interesting. So Epic isn't against the idea of a "Tax" form of revenue? They just wish they didn't have to be a payer of the "Tax"? Who can blame them, it's better to get paid passively than pay out passively. Maybe I'm just a crazy capitalist, but it seems to me that if the business model itself isn't in question, what leg does Epic have to stand on?

    There are other ways to charge for business services. I charge by the project. A client comes to me with a bunch of work. I figure out how much it should cost to pay me what I'm worth, cover expenses and leave some profit margin so I can reinvest in the business and build some wealth myself. My client can then take that work and do whatever they want with no further obligation to me. That's a classic business transaction model. No "Tax".

    If Epic is so against the idea of the "Tax", perhaps they should lead the way by offering Unreal for a flat fee (let's be real, though, probably tiered with more support for higher fees). Membership in their store could be by flat fee, again, probably tiered. But remove the "tax" % payments.

    I would have SIGNIFICANT concerns about entering into a % revenue "Tax" arrangement with a vendor. Count me as skeptical of the % revenue split concept. But if I charge my clients via the same method, what standing do I have to go around grandstanding about the unfairness of the practice?
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 93 of 111
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    johnbear said:
    Apple charges these 30% fees like mafia mob. Shame on them 
    Get the hell out of here with this nonsense.
    watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 94 of 111
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member

    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.



    Judging from the WWDC presentations Apple seems to be quite chummy with Unity. Unity may be getting deep early access to Apple Silicon, which will be a big leap in GPU performance, taking it close to (or maybe exceeding) discrete GPU performance.

    Another thing I noticed was the absence of SceneKit presentations at WWDC. Could they be cooking something up with Unity to replace it?
    Would be great if Apple could swap out Epic’s engine with another in no time.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 95 of 111
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    kbee said:
    Beside the fact that I don't like Epic - I'm crossing my fingers hoping that Epic wins. 30% was once reasonable in the beginning - nowadays it is just a sign that there is something wrong with the AppStore and that there is no competition. Apple is clearly abusing its dominance and by the way as far as I can see when your software costs $5,99 on the AppStore you are not allowed to sell it for $4,99 somewhere else.
    If Apple is sued to pay back all the money it pirated over the last years - this would be a huge pay check for me (just dreamin) ... Go Epic!!!
    The stupid comments just seem to be multiplying here these days.

    If Apple’s cut was 50% it would be reasonable because it would be what they charge and developers would be free to go elsewhere to sell their product.
    pscooter63FileMakerFellerwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 96 of 111
    kbee said:
    Beside the fact that I don't like Epic - I'm crossing my fingers hoping that Epic wins. 30% was once reasonable in the beginning - nowadays it is just a sign that there is something wrong with the AppStore and that there is no competition. Apple is clearly abusing its dominance and by the way as far as I can see when your software costs $5,99 on the AppStore you are not allowed to sell it for $4,99 somewhere else.
    If Apple is sued to pay back all the money it pirated over the last years - this would be a huge pay check for me (just dreamin) ... Go Epic!!!
    Oh kbee... starting your comment with I don’t like epic but I support them it’s not going to give credibility or sense to your post. Your are not just dreaming or are “Walt Disney World Dreaming”. Apple didn’t take that money illegally each developer went through several Next, Next, Next, Next and AGREE. In courts HOPE doesn’t  play well but AGREEMENTS on the other hand. Yes they do.
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 97 of 111
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    Beats said:
    bulk001 said:
    tyler82 said:
    Apple is on the wrong side of this battle. 
    I agree with you but think Epic is the wrong company to fight it was it seems they charge devs a percentage of the sales themselves. There needs to be a way to install apps on the phone / pad without going through the AppStore if you don’t want to. Those who only want to use the AppStore are free to do so but those who want to get it from another source can too much like you can with your Mac. Apple could even put up a nice little warning about the dangers of 3rd party apps etc. 

    Yes and Wal Mart should allow 3rd party vendors in and be responsible for heir actions too.

    The entitlement is riduculous.
    You mean what the online “marketplaces” do? Amazon, NewEgg, etc...
  • Reply 98 of 111
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    [...]
    But worse, beyond the Apple cheerleaders that we all are, Apple will start being seeing as the dark force. Count on Epic to pose as the victim here. They seem to have this well planned. 

    And in the medium term, Apple will start losing customers, losing public goodwill, losing its ability to attract the best developers.
    This is already happening. It has been happening. I’m some ways, it always was. Some developers only have Mac or iOS apps because they refuse to leave money on the table, but constantly bitch about Apple while collecting that money.

    But also, Apple is not the same company it was back in the earlier 2000s. Today’s Apple isn’t different in ignoring desktop gaming, but it’s different in its lack of attention to details with its own products (bugs, bugs, bugs, and bad design; not historical Apple). It’s different in its arrogance, which is frightening, seeing as Apple corporate culture was always thick with arrogance.

    Things aren’t getting better. The people at the top will never suffer, but customers always do.

    I think Epic is all self-inflicted injuries in THIS case, but Apple IS getting out of bounds. The arrogance is at epic levels (no pun intended), and the execution is at “Jobs wilderness era” Apple levels (and there’s no Jobs coming back to fix anything).

    Addressed to everyone:

    Corporations are mostly immortal (and mostly sociopathic) entities, and have way too much power in the world. Laissez-faire capitalism and its religious adherents are wrecking civilization and planet (including Apple, despite their efforts at forging an image of environmental friendliness).

    Everyone that continues to give this culture a pass is part of the problem, and there are almost zero politicians who have enough respect for long-term well-being or survival of their own dogdamned species to risk their corporate buddies’ wealth and their own continued reaping of millions to do anything about it.

    Apple needs to be reeled in just like the majority of the other million/billion $$ corporations with far too much power. It’s not equally bad on all topics, I grant. Some corporations are less bad, or are less bad in different ways than others (while some are overtly destroying civilization), but ALL of these monstrosities need to be reeled in, including Apple.

    Wall Street is not the economy. It’s a gambling den. Wall Street/stock market addiction is destroying the actual economy. Resources are being wasted propping it up to keep numbers looking good and to keep million/billionaires happy, and to make the Whitehouse look good, but it doesn’t represent what’s really going on on Main Street USA.

    We are at an egregious state of privatization of the gains and socialization of the losses. Corporations are happily accepting help in looting the government and the people. Pointing at Apple’s (or anyone else’s) stock prices or company valuation is no kind of sane metric of quality... nor value to human civilization.

    Change the culture or watch the world burn.

    Frankly, I don’t see much more than unrealistic ideological libertarians in this community, so downvote to your heart’s content... but you’re (no one targeted person) part of the problem if that’s the extent of the thought or response you have to the bigger picture.
    FileMakerFeller
  • Reply 99 of 111
    tipootipoo Posts: 1,120member
    Yikes. I'm fearful for Unreal Engine 5 on Apple Silicon being cancelled in this war, that would suck for us. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 100 of 111
    basjhjbasjhj Posts: 94member
    Peza said:
    KITA said:
    Interesting. This may impact iOS/macOS gaming even further, potentially making third party developers choose to drop support of iOS/macOS or find a new game engine.

    It told Epic that by August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers, which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas. 

    If the Unreal Engine can no longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use alternatives.

    Apple would lose out on Unreal Engine 5 as well it sounds like.




    Yes, yes they will, but if Apple wants to shoot it’s own foot off to carry on with its hypocritical store rules that’s up to them, I’m sure the EU investigation will tell them what to do if they want to continue trading in Europe, no doubt the Apple fans will just claim Apple doesn’t need Europe, yeah it doesn’t need billions in profit.
    If anyone is shooting in its own foot, it is Epic. Epic would have a very hard time making their case in EU courts.

    Also, anyone in love with the idea that the EU is very keen on dismantling American tech companies is almost surely in for a rude awakening. It would cause major headaches in already fragile US-EU relations, and there are rumors the idea is not very popular in several European capitals.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
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