Windows on Apple Silicon is up to Microsoft, says Craig Federighi

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,552member
    MplsP said:

    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    His friend’s problem is Apple’s problem in as much as it shrinks their customer base. Since Macs have a significantly smaller installed base than PCs that’s a concern. 

    I agree it’s not directly Apple’s job to design computers to run Windows. Their job is to design computers that do a good job of running MacOS, but if they can make it easier for other developers to emulate Windows or to dual boot to an ARM compatible version of windows then it would benefit a subgroup of their user base. 
    I completely disagree with you, and the reason is that Apple is in the midst of a disruption. Why slow that down to help out the status quo? 

    No, it is completely on MS to provide, or not provide, Windows on Apple M Series. Apple should focus on bringing new apps and developers to Mac OS, iOS, and iPad OS, and filling out its Mac hardware ecosystem.

    Apple is quite aware of the proportion id existing, and new, buyers of the Mac, and how many need Windows, so why not give Apple the benefit of the doubt and let them run with their marketing plan through 2021 and beyond, and see what happens.
    edited November 2020 Rayz2016Xedhydrogen
  • Reply 82 of 109
    dewmedewme Posts: 4,004member
    Marvin said:
    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.
    Making an operating system work natively and be fully supported on a new architecture is not a small task. They have to write new drivers for all the hardware. For native boot, Apple would have to redo the boot loader.

    The first step would be for Microsoft to have a license program for ARM Windows, as people have mentioned a few times and given that more servers will start to use ARM, this might happen. They allowed virtualization of ARM Windows inside native ARM Windows a few months ago:

    https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/05/21/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-19631/

    "Back in February with Build 19559, we added the ability to install Hyper-V on ARM64 devices such as the Surface Pro X running the Enterprise or Pro editions of Windows 10. Today, we are offering the ARM64 VHDX for Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 19624, so that Insiders can run Windows 10 as a guest OS in Hyper-V."

    For performance, Apple could allow GPU virtualization if they haven't already. Then the VM companies could virtualize the OS and could develop a framework to allow running graphics natively on the GPU by translating the DirectX calls to Metal, which seems to be what they do now but with Apple controlling the host OS and hardware, they should be able to do that better. 3D and games could run close to native speed because everything that happens on a GPU is recompiled for it anyway it just needs to efficiently share the GPU with the host OS.

    Virtualization won't ever be a full replacement for native boot, there will always be some things that need a native system but for that there's the possibility of remote servers or just buying a cheap PC. The following PC is cheap and could be powered over a USB port:

    https://www.amazon.com/Computer-x5-Z8350-Pre-Installed-Windows-Bluetooth/dp/B08BNQLGYM

    If it was setup as a remote PC, then instead of opening VMWare/Parallels etc, that would be plugged into USB and open Microsoft Remote Desktop:

    https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id1295203466?mt=12

    Then you have Windows running on a Mac just like you would a VM. VMWare/Parallels/OWC could get into this hardware business and sell a special dongle that works over USB C. It would be better if the display output went over the USB port. This won't be a fast PC but would run everything except high-end 3D/games. If it was possible to allow the Apple GPU to be available to it via Thunderbolt, it could handle 3D that way.

    Regarding software that requires Windows to run, especially educational software, there should be a requirement with all media published by public bodies that it has to run on a cross-platform framework.
    Wow. Never knew PC in a USB stick exists. This will solve it with M1 Mac. Maybe Apple Insider should do a full review. I’m curious now. 
    It’s not just stick PCs either. There are many small form factor (SFF) PCs across a broad spectrum of performance capabilities. Some of these are little larger than an Apple TV and others are around the size of a Mac Mini. Many of these even support mounting systems to attach them to the back of a monitor. To get the same user experience that you get with VMWare/Parallels/VirtualBox you’d also have to use either a KVM switch to use the same keyboard, video monitor, and mouse with the PC “sidecar” that you use with your Mac, or achieve this sharing in an ad hoc manner by using a keyboard and mouse that support multiple computers and use a second video input on your monitor.

    The whole notion of having multiple computers plugged into the same monitor is very familiar to me. All of my monitors and TVs that have extra video inputs (typically HDMI) have something plugged into them, either a Mac Mini, Apple TV, or Raspberry Pi. Plugging a Raspberry Pi into a spare HDMI input on your big screen TV gives you at the very least a real web browser, e.g., Firefox, Chromium, etc., on your TV as opposed to the crap or experimental browser that typically comes with your TV operating system. In truth, it buys you a heck of a lot more, like a full MS office compatible office suite, email aggregator, and access to a wealth of Linux apps. 

    If a Pi is the only computer you have plugged into your TV a wireless keyboard/trackpad like the Logitech K400+ is a great option. If you have more than one computer, Apple TV, Mac Mini plugged into your TV you can easily find wireless keypad/trackpad devices that support multiple devices. 

    The only kludgy factor with having multiple devices feeding the same video and audio to a TV is how to switch between them. The bare bones solution is built into your TV remote in the Input selector. Another option, one that I use on my primary TV setup, is to use an AV Receiver, which provides the video and audio input selection upstream of one video input to your TV. On my setup the AV receiver provides 4 HDMI inputs into the HDMI-1 input on my TV and my 5.1 speaker setup (cable box, BlueRay, Apple TV, Mac Mini). I still have 3 additional HDMI inputs on my TV, of which I’m using one for a Raspberry Pi, for a total of 5 devices driving the same TV. 
    ravnorodomRayz2016mobird
  • Reply 83 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    tmay said:
    MplsP said:

    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    His friend’s problem is Apple’s problem in as much as it shrinks their customer base. Since Macs have a significantly smaller installed base than PCs that’s a concern. 

    I agree it’s not directly Apple’s job to design computers to run Windows. Their job is to design computers that do a good job of running MacOS, but if they can make it easier for other developers to emulate Windows or to dual boot to an ARM compatible version of windows then it would benefit a subgroup of their user base. 
    I completely disagree with you, and the reason is that Apple is in the midst of a disruption. Why slow that down to help out the status quo? 

    No, it is completely on MS to provide, or not provide, Windows on Apple M Series. Apple should focus on bringing new apps and developers to Mac OS, iOS, and iPad OS, and filling out its Mac hardware ecosystem.

    Apple is quite aware of the proportion id existing, and new, buyers of the Mac, and how many need Windows, so why not give Apple the benefit of the doubt and let them run with their marketing plan through 2021 and beyond, and see what happens.
    Absolutely spot on.

    There's no reason for Apple to tether itself to Windows when such a tiny proportion of the user base uses it.

    The problem is that @GeorgeBMac and @MpIsP say that Apple should support it because so many people run Windows. 

    Nope. Apple isn't interested in how many people run Windows. They're interested in how many people need to run Windows on  a Mac, and I strongly suspect that number isn't growing.
    edited November 2020 Xed
  • Reply 84 of 109
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,036member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.

    You keep throwing this word 'petulant' around, and I'm not sure you know what it means.

    The interviewer asked Apple about Windows support, and Apple replied that it was up to Microsoft, which obviously it is.


    LOL....  I know exactly what the word petulant means.   You might try looking it up.   Or, if you want an example just look at Federighi.

    His response was childish and petulant.   "I'm NOT!    I'm NOT!   I'm NOT (going to clean my room!)"

    Apple changed the environment and now stands back and, without offering to lift a finger says it's all Microsoft's problem (even though Apple created the problem!)

    That's childish and petulant.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 85 of 109
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,036member
    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft as well as Apple and all those Mac users who need to run Windows software or prefer Windows to MacOS.
    Finished that for you....

    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft. The question is whether they are going to expend the resources to do so. On the surface, it doesn't make sense to spend the resources for a nominal number of machines but having a true ARM version of Windows would like be beneficial in other circumstances as well, especially given Intel's decline from dominance in the processor market.

    I do not agree with this line of thinking.  There certainly are people out there who must use Windows (for whatever reason) but prefer a Macintosh.  If they are unable to run Windows on a Mac, these individuals would be forced to purchase a PC...  and perhaps doing a Hackintosh.  This situation would result in a lost hardware sale for Apple so having Windows able to run on Macintosh hardware benefits both Microsoft & Apple.  What the numbers are is anybodies guess...  though probably favoring Microsoft (in a big way).

    Though I cannot see this (EVER) happening...  Imagine if Apple and Microsoft entered into an agreement where Microsoft could purchase and use M-series chips (perhaps a generation old) to use in their Surface devices while agreeing to develop a native M-series version of Windows.
    I should have phrased my post differently -
    I did not mean to say that Microsoft alone would benefit from an ARM version. What I intended to say was that there is little to no downside for Microsoft to have an ARM version since it expands their base and potentially opens up new markets. 

    I completely agree.   ARM, if not the future, will at minimum be an increasingly major part of it.  
    So, I would expand it to being mandatory for Microsoft rather than just having no downside (assuming MS wants to maintain their position).
  • Reply 86 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,552member
    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft as well as Apple and all those Mac users who need to run Windows software or prefer Windows to MacOS.
    Finished that for you....

    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft. The question is whether they are going to expend the resources to do so. On the surface, it doesn't make sense to spend the resources for a nominal number of machines but having a true ARM version of Windows would like be beneficial in other circumstances as well, especially given Intel's decline from dominance in the processor market.

    I do not agree with this line of thinking.  There certainly are people out there who must use Windows (for whatever reason) but prefer a Macintosh.  If they are unable to run Windows on a Mac, these individuals would be forced to purchase a PC...  and perhaps doing a Hackintosh.  This situation would result in a lost hardware sale for Apple so having Windows able to run on Macintosh hardware benefits both Microsoft & Apple.  What the numbers are is anybodies guess...  though probably favoring Microsoft (in a big way).

    Though I cannot see this (EVER) happening...  Imagine if Apple and Microsoft entered into an agreement where Microsoft could purchase and use M-series chips (perhaps a generation old) to use in their Surface devices while agreeing to develop a native M-series version of Windows.
    I should have phrased my post differently -
    I did not mean to say that Microsoft alone would benefit from an ARM version. What I intended to say was that there is little to no downside for Microsoft to have an ARM version since it expands their base and potentially opens up new markets. 

    I completely agree.   ARM, if not the future, will at minimum be an increasingly major part of it.  
    So, I would expand it to being mandatory for Microsoft rather than just having no downside (assuming MS wants to maintain their position).
    Yeah, ARM is the future, and its Apple that's pushing it farthest into PC's, so MS needs to get its shit together, not Apple.

    Apple shouldn't have to throw a lifer preserver to MS to either provide, Windows ARM for the M Series.
    edited November 2020 Rayz2016
  • Reply 87 of 109
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,668moderator
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.
    You keep throwing this word 'petulant' around, and I'm not sure you know what it means.

    The interviewer asked Apple about Windows support, and Apple replied that it was up to Microsoft, which obviously it is.
    LOL....  I know exactly what the word petulant means.   You might try looking it up.   Or, if you want an example just look at Federighi.

    His response was childish and petulant.   "I'm NOT!    I'm NOT!   I'm NOT (going to clean my room!)"

    Apple changed the environment and now stands back and, without offering to lift a finger says it's all Microsoft's problem (even though Apple created the problem!)

    That's childish and petulant.
    Federighi didn't say he wasn't going to do anything to support Windows, quite the opposite. They put a lot of work into making a virtualization system that will accommodate any ARM OS. Apple has done their part. If Microsoft doesn't license their ARM OS, there's nothing more anyone can do. What Federighi said is that the next step for Windows support depends on Microsoft. The same issue affects running Windows on devices like the Rasberry Pi:

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-win_licensing/windows-10-arm-licensing/8f85682a-28ed-4812-8543-20fa707fa714
    tmaydewme
  • Reply 88 of 109
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,489member
    tmay said:
    MplsP said:

    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    His friend’s problem is Apple’s problem in as much as it shrinks their customer base. Since Macs have a significantly smaller installed base than PCs that’s a concern. 

    I agree it’s not directly Apple’s job to design computers to run Windows. Their job is to design computers that do a good job of running MacOS, but if they can make it easier for other developers to emulate Windows or to dual boot to an ARM compatible version of windows then it would benefit a subgroup of their user base. 
    I completely disagree with you, and the reason is that Apple is in the midst of a disruption. Why slow that down to help out the status quo? 

    No, it is completely on MS to provide, or not provide, Windows on Apple M Series. Apple should focus on bringing new apps and developers to Mac OS, iOS, and iPad OS, and filling out its Mac hardware ecosystem.

    Apple is quite aware of the proportion id existing, and new, buyers of the Mac, and how many need Windows, so why not give Apple the benefit of the doubt and let them run with their marketing plan through 2021 and beyond, and see what happens.
    They shouldn't slow down  - I'm thrilled that Apple is breaking free of Intel, and I'm not arguing that they should slow down to help the status quo, but he fact of the matter is much of the world runs on Windows and there are many people that are required to run windows. You can ignore that fact all you want, but it's still a fact. I prefer Macs. I think the OS is better and I think the hardware is better, but if I have to run windows apps and I can't do it on a Mac then I have a choice of getting a windows machine or getting two machines. How many people will buy an extra computer in this situation? Very few. That's just the way it is.

    Just how would making it easier for outside developers to build software to run windows hurt Apple?
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingamrazorpit
  • Reply 89 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,552member
    MplsP said:
    tmay said:
    MplsP said:

    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    His friend’s problem is Apple’s problem in as much as it shrinks their customer base. Since Macs have a significantly smaller installed base than PCs that’s a concern. 

    I agree it’s not directly Apple’s job to design computers to run Windows. Their job is to design computers that do a good job of running MacOS, but if they can make it easier for other developers to emulate Windows or to dual boot to an ARM compatible version of windows then it would benefit a subgroup of their user base. 
    I completely disagree with you, and the reason is that Apple is in the midst of a disruption. Why slow that down to help out the status quo? 

    No, it is completely on MS to provide, or not provide, Windows on Apple M Series. Apple should focus on bringing new apps and developers to Mac OS, iOS, and iPad OS, and filling out its Mac hardware ecosystem.

    Apple is quite aware of the proportion id existing, and new, buyers of the Mac, and how many need Windows, so why not give Apple the benefit of the doubt and let them run with their marketing plan through 2021 and beyond, and see what happens.
    They shouldn't slow down  - I'm thrilled that Apple is breaking free of Intel, and I'm not arguing that they should slow down to help the status quo, but he fact of the matter is much of the world runs on Windows and there are many people that are required to run windows. You can ignore that fact all you want, but it's still a fact. I prefer Macs. I think the OS is better and I think the hardware is better, but if I have to run windows apps and I can't do it on a Mac then I have a choice of getting a windows machine or getting two machines. How many people will buy an extra computer in this situation? Very few. That's just the way it is.

    Just how would making it easier for outside developers to build software to run windows hurt Apple?
    See Marvin's Post above yours.

    I'm only arguing that Apple shouldn't do any more than they have to date, and given that M Series Macs have only been out a few weeks, people need to chill, and possibly wait for some months. Again, this isn't on Apple, who isn't preventing MS from making Windows available on these Mac's.

    Yeah, much of the world runs on Windows, and now there enough of a disruption so users and developers can adopt change, not continue to ride out the status quo.
    edited November 2020 Rayz2016razorpit
  • Reply 90 of 109
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,318member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.

    You keep throwing this word 'petulant' around, and I'm not sure you know what it means.

    The interviewer asked Apple about Windows support, and Apple replied that it was up to Microsoft, which obviously it is.


    LOL....  I know exactly what the word petulant means.   You might try looking it up.   Or, if you want an example just look at Federighi.

    His response was childish and petulant.   "I'm NOT!    I'm NOT!   I'm NOT (going to clean my room!)"

    Apple changed the environment and now stands back and, without offering to lift a finger says it's all Microsoft's problem (even though Apple created the problem!)

    That's childish and petulant.
    Which interview were you reading?  The one I read went...

    Craig Fderighi said:
    As for Windows running natively on the machine, "that's really up to Microsoft," he said. "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications. But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But the Macs are certainly very capable of it."
    ... which sums up the situation. The M1 Macs can theoretically run Windows for ARM as far as Apple know, but since Microsoft doesn't sell licenses for Windows for ARM there's not much more they can do, it's up to Microsoft to decide whether they want to go that route. I'm sure Apple and Microsoft are talking about this behind the scenes, but Apple have no power to make Microsoft sell something.
    tmayFidonet127
  • Reply 91 of 109
    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows. 
    So you support his repeated insults and attacks of my friend simply because she refused to buy a Mac that won't support native Windows.
    You are as pitiful as he is....



    Nobody attacked your friend. They had fun with your wording. Your wording to your friend was untrue and that is what lost Apple a hardware sale. Apple cannot help things when people lie. You could of told your friend that Windows will run fine with the Intel Macs and it is still too new to know about running any Windows app on the Apple silicon Macs. Instead you lied to your friend and said Macs will never run Windows. Your friend could of used an Intel Mac for years to see how things play out. You have groups like Crossover, Parallels, that are trying to make things work. You won’t give them a chance though. It is Apple’s fault though isn’t it?
    edited November 2020 tmay
  • Reply 92 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.

    You keep throwing this word 'petulant' around, and I'm not sure you know what it means.

    The interviewer asked Apple about Windows support, and Apple replied that it was up to Microsoft, which obviously it is.


    LOL....  I know exactly what the word petulant means.  


    Well, clearly you don’t. Petulant is stamping your widdle feet all over a forum because Apple doesn’t do what you want and has the audacity to be successful while completely ignoring you. 

    Apple changed the environment and now stands back and, without offering to lift a finger says it's all Microsoft's problem (even though Apple created the problem!)

    Solutions are already out there. You can stay with your existing Intel Mac, remote on to another PC or use a Windows cloud service. The fact that you’ve decided to stand in a corner in a kiddy huff instead of looking at alternatives (including leaving the platform) is hardly Apple’s fault. And of course in your little huff, you’re deliberately ignoring the fact that Microsoft  hasn’t licensed WArm for standalone installation and given that they’d rather you use their upcoming CloudPC, may never license it.  


    Get over yourself and buy a Windows machine.
    edited November 2020 Fidonet127tmay
  • Reply 93 of 109
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.
    Don’t forget Microsoft Remote Desktop. That is the critical piece of the puzzle for anyone working remotely, away from an office. 

    Years ago, my better half used to have Windows installed on her Macs to be able to work from home or on the road. It was a pain. Those days are gone. It is totally unnecessary now, and the pandemic has just cemented it. If she needs her work computer, a Windows machine sitting in an office in NYC, she just connects to it. These days, working full time from home, she uses it pretty much all day. Works flawlessly.
    Fidonet127Rayz2016
  • Reply 94 of 109
    dewmedewme Posts: 4,004member
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.
    Don’t forget Microsoft Remote Desktop. That is the critical piece of the puzzle for anyone working remotely, away from an office. 

    Years ago, my better half used to have Windows installed on her Macs to be able to work from home or on the road. It was a pain. Those days are gone. It is totally unnecessary now, and the pandemic has just cemented it. If she needs her work computer, a Windows machine sitting in an office in NYC, she just connects to it. These days, working full time from home, she uses it pretty much all day. Works flawlessly.
    Excellent point. Thanks for bringing this up.

    Microsoft Remote Desktop uses the RDP protocol, which is extremely more efficient and performant than remoting clients like VNC. RDP essentially remotes the UI of the remote computer at the API level and runs in its own Windows session. VNC and other similar remoting clients essentially take snapshots of the screen on the remote computer and replicate the pixels on the client. When using a VNC style client on a gigabit LAN there is still obvious lag and noticeable screen painting artifacts. The better VNC clients are pretty good at optimizing the screen painting but I haven’t found any that are as good as RDP. 

    Using RDP it’s almost indistinguishable that you’re driving a remote machine, even on a fairly slow client, like an old laptop running Linux or an older iPad. The only benefit of VNC style clients is being able to run both the local and remote UI simultaneously, or have the remote client read-only, i.e., acting like an additional monitor. I use VNC to use an older iPad as a secondary read-only display for a Windows PC. RDP on the other takes over the active Windows session and the remote machine’s UI is logged out, which is exactly what you want if you are connecting remotely and not on-premise.

    I use Microsoft Remote Desktop on all of my Macs and iPads. On Linux clients and Raspberry Pi I use Remmina. 

    The only limitation that I’ve run into with Windows Remote Desktop is that the host machine, I.e., server side of the RDP connection, has to be Windows 10 Professional. The Home version of Windows 10 doesn’t support Remote Desktop, at least the last time I checked.
    Fidonet127
  • Reply 95 of 109
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.

    You keep throwing this word 'petulant' around, and I'm not sure you know what it means.

    The interviewer asked Apple about Windows support, and Apple replied that it was up to Microsoft, which obviously it is.


    LOL....  I know exactly what the word petulant means.   You might try looking it up.   Or, if you want an example just look at Federighi.

    His response was childish and petulant.   "I'm NOT!    I'm NOT!   I'm NOT (going to clean my room!)"

    Apple changed the environment and now stands back and, without offering to lift a finger says it's all Microsoft's problem (even though Apple created the problem!)

    That's childish and petulant.

    This is getting bizarre. Microsoft is solely responsible for its own software, it is as simple as that. Apple is not in the business of selling Windows crap, in case you haven't noticed.
    As for people who claim that Windows is a necessity: in the research-intensive company I work for, none of the mission-critical software runs on Windows. Those days are really over.
    tmayFidonet127Rayz2016
  • Reply 96 of 109
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,995member
    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    That doesn't make a lot of sense. 

    All the major additions to iOS came from Android features this year. By your very own definition Apple is knocking off Android. Many the major features on iPhone hardware were on Android devices long before. Another knockoff?

    Apple wasn't even first with ARM ISA on non-mobile devices.

    You say not to forget history but seem to be trying to re-write it.

    Apple is transitioning to ARM ISA. It's a big change for Apple but there is still a massive amount of money to be made on intel. 

    As for ARM (or RISC-V for that matter) vendors have been moving into that space for years. Apple is just another vendor moving to that space (in the case of non tablet, mobile etc). 
  • Reply 97 of 109
    XedXed Posts: 1,175member
    avon b7 said:
    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    That doesn't make a lot of sense. 

    All the major additions to iOS came from Android features this year. By your very own definition Apple is knocking off Android. Many the major features on iPhone hardware were on Android devices long before. Another knockoff?

    Apple wasn't even first with ARM ISA on non-mobile devices.

    You say not to forget history but seem to be trying to re-write it.

    Apple is transitioning to ARM ISA. It's a big change for Apple but there is still a massive amount of money to be made on intel. 

    As for ARM (or RISC-V for that matter) vendors have been moving into that space for years. Apple is just another vendor moving to that space (in the case of non tablet, mobile etc). 
    “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.“

    That’s the fastest jump to number 3 that I’ve ever seen.  It was just this Summer when people like you were saying that Apple Silicon was going to be a miserable experience for users and that there is no way they could best Intel or AMD and now, all of a sudden, it was an obvious move that everyone knew would succeed because everyone is doing it.
    edited November 2020 tmayRayz2016
  • Reply 98 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,552member
    avon b7 said:
    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    That doesn't make a lot of sense. 

    All the major additions to iOS came from Android features this year. By your very own definition Apple is knocking off Android. Many the major features on iPhone hardware were on Android devices long before. Another knockoff?

    Apple wasn't even first with ARM ISA on non-mobile devices.

    You say not to forget history but seem to be trying to re-write it.

    Apple is transitioning to ARM ISA. It's a big change for Apple but there is still a massive amount of money to be made on intel. 

    As for ARM (or RISC-V for that matter) vendors have been moving into that space for years. Apple is just another vendor moving to that space (in the case of non tablet, mobile etc). 
    LOL!

    All the major additions to iOS came from Android features this year. By your very own definition Apple is knocking off Android. Many the major features on iPhone hardware were on Android devices long before. Another knockoff?
    A very, very, profitable knockoff evidently, thank you very much! Perhaps those Android OEM device makers can take a lesson from Apple's business model; let the other guys introduce all of those bleeding edge features, but we'll wait until we can deliver the best experience, deliver a small number of models in volume, and save handsomely on the BOM.

    Oh wait, those Android OEM device makers can't do that. The competition isn't really between Apple and the Android OEM's, it's almost entire within that group of those Android OEM device makers, hence the low margins.

    Two trillion dollar company with a decade of leading ARM silicon "is just another vendor moving to that space", as the M1 receives major plaudits for disrupting x86. You really believe that, don't you?

    edited November 2020
  • Reply 99 of 109
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,995member
    Xed said:
    avon b7 said:
    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    That doesn't make a lot of sense. 

    All the major additions to iOS came from Android features this year. By your very own definition Apple is knocking off Android. Many the major features on iPhone hardware were on Android devices long before. Another knockoff?

    Apple wasn't even first with ARM ISA on non-mobile devices.

    You say not to forget history but seem to be trying to re-write it.

    Apple is transitioning to ARM ISA. It's a big change for Apple but there is still a massive amount of money to be made on intel. 

    As for ARM (or RISC-V for that matter) vendors have been moving into that space for years. Apple is just another vendor moving to that space (in the case of non tablet, mobile etc). 
    “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.“

    That’s the fastest jump to number 3 that I’ve ever seen.  It was just this Summer when people like you were saying that Apple Silicon was going to be a miserable experience for users and that there is no way they could best Intel or AMD and now, all of a sudden, it was an obvious move that everyone knew would succeed because everyone is doing it.
    People like me? 

    I have had virtually NO opinion worth stating on Apple Silicon even from when rumours were on the mill! As a result, your entire first paragraph is lost on me.

    It's a transition to a new architecture and nothing more, at least from my perspective.

    I can see the pros and contras but I haven't had a need for processor speed since 2009!

    I'm not a gamer. I don't need horsepower for video work. I don't even need massive amounts of battery power. I don't need retina screens. 

    I need fast network speeds (fibre, 5G and WiFi 6 have me covered quite well) and software. Some of it very old software. I need a 14 inch screen in a 13 inch frame and a keyboard. A touchscreen display and spillproof keyboard would be nice. 

    I've done two architectural transitions. Headaches both times. I'll sit this one out and see what things look like down the road.

    What is sitting under the OS isn't really important to me as I don't need any of the performance enhancements. 






    edited November 2020 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 100 of 109
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,712member
    Just listen in awe to all the crap being spouted. Since the ASi Macs won’t run Windows natively it’s all over for Apple. ASi Mac sales will crash into oblivion because EVERYBODY needs to run Windows ALL THE TIME on their Mac. Mac sales to the Enterprise will cease immediately because the only reason companies buy Macs is to run Windows. Without native Windows there is absolutely no reason to buy a Mac, EVER! 

    Does that about sum it up for guys like GergeBMac, Avon B7 and that crowd?
    tmayFidonet127Rayz2016
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