Huawei debuts Mate X2 folding phone, starting at eye-popping $2,785

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  • Reply 41 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    edited February 25
  • Reply 42 of 76
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
  • Reply 43 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.
    chia
  • Reply 44 of 76
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
  • Reply 45 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.
    chia
  • Reply 46 of 76
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
  • Reply 47 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,740member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    Yes. I know it's not just your opinion. There are plenty more with you - but all suffering from the same problem. Nothing to substantiate the claims. 

    While on the other hand, the world has plenty of evidence to laugh at the US when it speaks of things like 'clean networks'. 

    I actually checked on your first link (even knowing that it wouldn't support your claims in the slightest) and saw what I expected to see. 

    No sooner had it begun...

    "Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".

    And then this... 

    "
    These included some long-term critics of the company." 

    So what we have is an article based on a group of people with an anti-China bias regurgitating the same old story (like you do) and not supporting it in any reasonable manner. 

    Thankfully the world needs more than that. 

    And you still haven't told me where the national security threat is in a handset or provided a valid counterpoint to what this really is, US protectionism. No more. No less.

    Forgive me for not wasting time on your other links. 


    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 48 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    Yes. I know it's not just your opinion. There are plenty more with you - but all suffering from the same problem. Nothing to substantiate the claims. 

    While on the other hand, the world has plenty of evidence to laugh at the US when it speaks of things like 'clean networks'. 

    I actually checked on your first link (even knowing that it wouldn't support your claims in the slightest) and saw what I expected to see. 

    No sooner had it begun...

    "Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".

    And then this... 

    "These included some long-term critics of the company." 

    So what we have is an article based on a group of people with an anti-China bias regurgitating the same old story (like you do) and not supporting it in any reasonable manner. 

    Thankfully the world needs more than that. 

    And you still haven't told me where the national security threat is in a handset or provided a valid counterpoint to what this really is, US protectionism. No more. No less.

    Forgive me for not wasting time on your other links. 


    Really?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-at-t-huawei-tech/huaweis-att-u-s-smartphone-deal-collapses-idUSKBN1EX29E

    "Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's [HWT.UL] planned deal with U.S. carrier AT&T Inc to sell its smartphones in the United States has collapsed at the 11th hour because of security concerns, people with knowledge of the matter said, in a blow to the Chinese firm's global ambitions."

    "AT&T was pressured to drop the deal after members of the U.S. Senate and House intelligence committees sent a letter on Dec. 20 to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) citing concerns about Huawei’s plans to launch consumer products through a major U.S. telecom carrier.

    The letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai, which was signed by 18 lawmakers, noted concerns about Chinese companies in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

    The letter notes the committee’s concerns “about Chinese espionage in general, and Huawei’s role in that espionage in particular.” A copy of the letter was seen by Reuters."


    That's the story on Huawei handsets. Not much to see

    But of course Huawei Telecom is in fact a National Security issue, and now that Huawei is known to be providing surveillance in the Xinjiang Region, that pretty much ends their run in most Western Countries.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cadc6d26-97e1-4e63-b6ca-f24110c90379

    Germany sets high hurdle for Huawei
    Law gives ministers ability to exclude Chinese group from 5G network on security grounds.

    Who have thought that would happen...and yet, even many in Germany call for an outright ban, especially due to human rights violations.


    edited February 26
  • Reply 49 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.
  • Reply 50 of 76
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
  • Reply 51 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
  • Reply 53 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,740member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    Yes. I know it's not just your opinion. There are plenty more with you - but all suffering from the same problem. Nothing to substantiate the claims. 

    While on the other hand, the world has plenty of evidence to laugh at the US when it speaks of things like 'clean networks'. 

    I actually checked on your first link (even knowing that it wouldn't support your claims in the slightest) and saw what I expected to see. 

    No sooner had it begun...

    "Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".

    And then this... 

    "These included some long-term critics of the company." 

    So what we have is an article based on a group of people with an anti-China bias regurgitating the same old story (like you do) and not supporting it in any reasonable manner. 

    Thankfully the world needs more than that. 

    And you still haven't told me where the national security threat is in a handset or provided a valid counterpoint to what this really is, US protectionism. No more. No less.

    Forgive me for not wasting time on your other links. 


    Really?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-at-t-huawei-tech/huaweis-att-u-s-smartphone-deal-collapses-idUSKBN1EX29E

    "Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's [HWT.UL] planned deal with U.S. carrier AT&T Inc to sell its smartphones in the United States has collapsed at the 11th hour because of security concerns, people with knowledge of the matter said, in a blow to the Chinese firm's global ambitions."

    "AT&T was pressured to drop the deal after members of the U.S. Senate and House intelligence committees sent a letter on Dec. 20 to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) citing concerns about Huawei’s plans to launch consumer products through a major U.S. telecom carrier.

    The letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai, which was signed by 18 lawmakers, noted concerns about Chinese companies in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

    The letter notes the committee’s concerns “about Chinese espionage in general, and Huawei’s role in that espionage in particular.” A copy of the letter was seen by Reuters."


    That's the story on Huawei handsets. Not much to see

    But of course Huawei Telecom is in fact a National Security issue, and now that Huawei is known to be providing surveillance in the Xinjiang Region, that pretty much ends their run in most Western Countries.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cadc6d26-97e1-4e63-b6ca-f24110c90379

    Germany sets high hurdle for Huawei
    Law gives ministers ability to exclude Chinese group from 5G network on security grounds.

    Who have thought that would happen...and yet, even many in Germany call for an outright ban, especially due to human rights violations.


    In fact, nothing to see. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    A handset is not going to compromise a communications network. 

    Nor is telecoms equipment which has been scrutinised to the most minute details and passed every single standards related security certification in the book. Telecoms equipment which is controlled by the carriers.

    After the ICT manufacturers, it is the carriers themselves which best understand their networks and AT&T spent a full year tuning its network to the Kirin 970. Obviously they had no issues whatsoever with Huawei handsets. I mean none. After all, they were going to distribute them all over the US!

    So your 'evidence' boils down to 'concerns' !

    Well, if it's concerns that worry you, watch a few Snowden interviews on US efforts to tamper with ICT infrastructure. Its efforts to get 'backdoors' into equipment. To get US companies onboard. Its attempts to hack Huawei itself!

    Yes. PRISM, Operation Shotgiant etc. 

    But after a decade of trying to pin something on Huawei, the US literally (yes, literally) has nothing.

    And in more than 30 years of operating in more than 170 countries, Huawei has yet to suffer a major security breach. Not one! 

    Watch this video carefully. If one single point from the US 'book of concerns' were to be supported by actual evidence, Huawei would implode overnight (again, literally).



    When it couldn't find any evidence, much like the AT&T case, the US simply tried to bully its way to results. However, it didn't stop there. It plunged a stake into the heart the trust and respect it had garnered around the world and also its very own semiconductor industry.

    But what does this have to do with the Mate X2?

    Again. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    Let it go. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 54 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    edited February 28
  • Reply 55 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    Yes. I know it's not just your opinion. There are plenty more with you - but all suffering from the same problem. Nothing to substantiate the claims. 

    While on the other hand, the world has plenty of evidence to laugh at the US when it speaks of things like 'clean networks'. 

    I actually checked on your first link (even knowing that it wouldn't support your claims in the slightest) and saw what I expected to see. 

    No sooner had it begun...

    "Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".

    And then this... 

    "These included some long-term critics of the company." 

    So what we have is an article based on a group of people with an anti-China bias regurgitating the same old story (like you do) and not supporting it in any reasonable manner. 

    Thankfully the world needs more than that. 

    And you still haven't told me where the national security threat is in a handset or provided a valid counterpoint to what this really is, US protectionism. No more. No less.

    Forgive me for not wasting time on your other links. 


    Really?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-at-t-huawei-tech/huaweis-att-u-s-smartphone-deal-collapses-idUSKBN1EX29E

    "Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's [HWT.UL] planned deal with U.S. carrier AT&T Inc to sell its smartphones in the United States has collapsed at the 11th hour because of security concerns, people with knowledge of the matter said, in a blow to the Chinese firm's global ambitions."

    "AT&T was pressured to drop the deal after members of the U.S. Senate and House intelligence committees sent a letter on Dec. 20 to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) citing concerns about Huawei’s plans to launch consumer products through a major U.S. telecom carrier.

    The letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai, which was signed by 18 lawmakers, noted concerns about Chinese companies in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

    The letter notes the committee’s concerns “about Chinese espionage in general, and Huawei’s role in that espionage in particular.” A copy of the letter was seen by Reuters."


    That's the story on Huawei handsets. Not much to see

    But of course Huawei Telecom is in fact a National Security issue, and now that Huawei is known to be providing surveillance in the Xinjiang Region, that pretty much ends their run in most Western Countries.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cadc6d26-97e1-4e63-b6ca-f24110c90379

    Germany sets high hurdle for Huawei
    Law gives ministers ability to exclude Chinese group from 5G network on security grounds.

    Who have thought that would happen...and yet, even many in Germany call for an outright ban, especially due to human rights violations.


    In fact, nothing to see. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    A handset is not going to compromise a communications network. 

    Nor is telecoms equipment which has been scrutinised to the most minute details and passed every single standards related security certification in the book. Telecoms equipment which is controlled by the carriers.

    After the ICT manufacturers, it is the carriers themselves which best understand their networks and AT&T spent a full year tuning its network to the Kirin 970. Obviously they had no issues whatsoever with Huawei handsets. I mean none. After all, they were going to distribute them all over the US!

    So your 'evidence' boils down to 'concerns' !

    Well, if it's concerns that worry you, watch a few Snowden interviews on US efforts to tamper with ICT infrastructure. Its efforts to get 'backdoors' into equipment. To get US companies onboard. Its attempts to hack Huawei itself!

    Yes. PRISM, Operation Shotgiant etc. 

    But after a decade of trying to pin something on Huawei, the US literally (yes, literally) has nothing.

    And in more than 30 years of operating in more than 170 countries, Huawei has yet to suffer a major security breach. Not one! 

    Watch this video carefully. If one single point from the US 'book of concerns' were to be supported by actual evidence, Huawei would implode overnight (again, literally).



    When it couldn't find any evidence, much like the AT&T case, the US simply tried to bully its way to results. However, it didn't stop there. It plunged a stake into the heart the trust and respect it had garnered around the world and also its very own semiconductor industry.

    But what does this have to do with the Mate X2?

    Again. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    Let it go. 
    It doesn't matter if I let it go or not. You will still find that Huawei is considered a national security threat by Western nations. That's the problem, not how you or I perceive it. 

    You still seem unable to understand that China's authoritarianism is a military threat to the West, and that isn't disputable at all, nor is the fact that semiconductors, and other technologies have dual use within the Chinese Military. Hence the trade embargo's on U.S. sourced technologies.

    The Pandemic was the eye opener to how much risk the U.S. had from a supply chain that relied on China. That is being addressed, and there will be continued policy to source critical materials, product's, and technologies in the U.S.
  • Reply 56 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,740member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
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    tmay said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
  • Reply 57 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,740member
    tmay said:

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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    Yes. I know it's not just your opinion. There are plenty more with you - but all suffering from the same problem. Nothing to substantiate the claims. 

    While on the other hand, the world has plenty of evidence to laugh at the US when it speaks of things like 'clean networks'. 

    I actually checked on your first link (even knowing that it wouldn't support your claims in the slightest) and saw what I expected to see. 

    No sooner had it begun...

    "Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".

    And then this... 

    "These included some long-term critics of the company." 

    So what we have is an article based on a group of people with an anti-China bias regurgitating the same old story (like you do) and not supporting it in any reasonable manner. 

    Thankfully the world needs more than that. 

    And you still haven't told me where the national security threat is in a handset or provided a valid counterpoint to what this really is, US protectionism. No more. No less.

    Forgive me for not wasting time on your other links. 


    Really?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-at-t-huawei-tech/huaweis-att-u-s-smartphone-deal-collapses-idUSKBN1EX29E

    "Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's [HWT.UL] planned deal with U.S. carrier AT&T Inc to sell its smartphones in the United States has collapsed at the 11th hour because of security concerns, people with knowledge of the matter said, in a blow to the Chinese firm's global ambitions."

    "AT&T was pressured to drop the deal after members of the U.S. Senate and House intelligence committees sent a letter on Dec. 20 to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) citing concerns about Huawei’s plans to launch consumer products through a major U.S. telecom carrier.

    The letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai, which was signed by 18 lawmakers, noted concerns about Chinese companies in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

    The letter notes the committee’s concerns “about Chinese espionage in general, and Huawei’s role in that espionage in particular.” A copy of the letter was seen by Reuters."


    That's the story on Huawei handsets. Not much to see

    But of course Huawei Telecom is in fact a National Security issue, and now that Huawei is known to be providing surveillance in the Xinjiang Region, that pretty much ends their run in most Western Countries.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cadc6d26-97e1-4e63-b6ca-f24110c90379

    Germany sets high hurdle for Huawei
    Law gives ministers ability to exclude Chinese group from 5G network on security grounds.

    Who have thought that would happen...and yet, even many in Germany call for an outright ban, especially due to human rights violations.


    In fact, nothing to see. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    A handset is not going to compromise a communications network. 

    Nor is telecoms equipment which has been scrutinised to the most minute details and passed every single standards related security certification in the book. Telecoms equipment which is controlled by the carriers.

    After the ICT manufacturers, it is the carriers themselves which best understand their networks and AT&T spent a full year tuning its network to the Kirin 970. Obviously they had no issues whatsoever with Huawei handsets. I mean none. After all, they were going to distribute them all over the US!

    So your 'evidence' boils down to 'concerns' !

    Well, if it's concerns that worry you, watch a few Snowden interviews on US efforts to tamper with ICT infrastructure. Its efforts to get 'backdoors' into equipment. To get US companies onboard. Its attempts to hack Huawei itself!

    Yes. PRISM, Operation Shotgiant etc. 

    But after a decade of trying to pin something on Huawei, the US literally (yes, literally) has nothing.

    And in more than 30 years of operating in more than 170 countries, Huawei has yet to suffer a major security breach. Not one! 

    Watch this video carefully. If one single point from the US 'book of concerns' were to be supported by actual evidence, Huawei would implode overnight (again, literally).



    When it couldn't find any evidence, much like the AT&T case, the US simply tried to bully its way to results. However, it didn't stop there. It plunged a stake into the heart the trust and respect it had garnered around the world and also its very own semiconductor industry.

    But what does this have to do with the Mate X2?

    Again. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    Let it go. 
    It doesn't matter if I let it go or not. You will still find that Huawei is considered a national security threat by Western nations. That's the problem, not how you or I perceive it. 

    You still seem unable to understand that China's authoritarianism is a military threat to the West, and that isn't disputable at all, nor is the fact that semiconductors, and other technologies have dual use within the Chinese Military. Hence the trade embargo's on U.S. sourced technologies.

    The Pandemic was the eye opener to how much risk the U.S. had from a supply chain that relied on China. That is being addressed, and there will be continued policy to source critical materials, product's, and technologies in the U.S.
    Huawei isn't China. 

    I will refrain from entertaining you in this thread unless it is something related to the Mate X2
  • Reply 58 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
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    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    Worse for Huawei is that they were getting funding from the Party and used it to undercut competition. Surely the EU would do something about that is they were aware of it. Probably not...

    On the other hand, Germany is still attempting to placate the Chinese Government, sort of allowing Huawei telecom to compete, but quiet on the human rights violations, because exports. 

    As for China passing laws to prosecute companies affected by US sanctions, good luck with that and international law.

    https://www.axios.com/exclusive-top-german-official-hushed-up-report-on-chinas-influence-8c6aeef3-0f71-405f-a902-a215399f2068.html

    and this link about the treatment of the Uighurs;

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-china-uighur-surveilance-detain-last-week-tonight-1034281/
    Yes. I know it's not just your opinion. There are plenty more with you - but all suffering from the same problem. Nothing to substantiate the claims. 

    While on the other hand, the world has plenty of evidence to laugh at the US when it speaks of things like 'clean networks'. 

    I actually checked on your first link (even knowing that it wouldn't support your claims in the slightest) and saw what I expected to see. 

    No sooner had it begun...

    "Huawei has responded by saying "this report lacks credibility as it is built on opinion rather than fact".

    And then this... 

    "These included some long-term critics of the company." 

    So what we have is an article based on a group of people with an anti-China bias regurgitating the same old story (like you do) and not supporting it in any reasonable manner. 

    Thankfully the world needs more than that. 

    And you still haven't told me where the national security threat is in a handset or provided a valid counterpoint to what this really is, US protectionism. No more. No less.

    Forgive me for not wasting time on your other links. 


    Really?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-at-t-huawei-tech/huaweis-att-u-s-smartphone-deal-collapses-idUSKBN1EX29E

    "Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's [HWT.UL] planned deal with U.S. carrier AT&T Inc to sell its smartphones in the United States has collapsed at the 11th hour because of security concerns, people with knowledge of the matter said, in a blow to the Chinese firm's global ambitions."

    "AT&T was pressured to drop the deal after members of the U.S. Senate and House intelligence committees sent a letter on Dec. 20 to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) citing concerns about Huawei’s plans to launch consumer products through a major U.S. telecom carrier.

    The letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai, which was signed by 18 lawmakers, noted concerns about Chinese companies in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

    The letter notes the committee’s concerns “about Chinese espionage in general, and Huawei’s role in that espionage in particular.” A copy of the letter was seen by Reuters."


    That's the story on Huawei handsets. Not much to see

    But of course Huawei Telecom is in fact a National Security issue, and now that Huawei is known to be providing surveillance in the Xinjiang Region, that pretty much ends their run in most Western Countries.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cadc6d26-97e1-4e63-b6ca-f24110c90379

    Germany sets high hurdle for Huawei
    Law gives ministers ability to exclude Chinese group from 5G network on security grounds.

    Who have thought that would happen...and yet, even many in Germany call for an outright ban, especially due to human rights violations.


    In fact, nothing to see. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    A handset is not going to compromise a communications network. 

    Nor is telecoms equipment which has been scrutinised to the most minute details and passed every single standards related security certification in the book. Telecoms equipment which is controlled by the carriers.

    After the ICT manufacturers, it is the carriers themselves which best understand their networks and AT&T spent a full year tuning its network to the Kirin 970. Obviously they had no issues whatsoever with Huawei handsets. I mean none. After all, they were going to distribute them all over the US!

    So your 'evidence' boils down to 'concerns' !

    Well, if it's concerns that worry you, watch a few Snowden interviews on US efforts to tamper with ICT infrastructure. Its efforts to get 'backdoors' into equipment. To get US companies onboard. Its attempts to hack Huawei itself!

    Yes. PRISM, Operation Shotgiant etc. 

    But after a decade of trying to pin something on Huawei, the US literally (yes, literally) has nothing.

    And in more than 30 years of operating in more than 170 countries, Huawei has yet to suffer a major security breach. Not one! 

    Watch this video carefully. If one single point from the US 'book of concerns' were to be supported by actual evidence, Huawei would implode overnight (again, literally).



    When it couldn't find any evidence, much like the AT&T case, the US simply tried to bully its way to results. However, it didn't stop there. It plunged a stake into the heart the trust and respect it had garnered around the world and also its very own semiconductor industry.

    But what does this have to do with the Mate X2?

    Again. Zero. Zippo. Nada.

    Let it go. 
    It doesn't matter if I let it go or not. You will still find that Huawei is considered a national security threat by Western nations. That's the problem, not how you or I perceive it. 

    You still seem unable to understand that China's authoritarianism is a military threat to the West, and that isn't disputable at all, nor is the fact that semiconductors, and other technologies have dual use within the Chinese Military. Hence the trade embargo's on U.S. sourced technologies.

    The Pandemic was the eye opener to how much risk the U.S. had from a supply chain that relied on China. That is being addressed, and there will be continued policy to source critical materials, product's, and technologies in the U.S.
    Huawei isn't China. 

    I will refrain from entertaining you in this thread unless it is something related to the Mate X2
    That's fine by me.

    I already stated my point that Huawei has very few Kirin 9000 SOC's to work with, so it made sense to use them in its most expensive products.

    Link to Huawei violation of GDPR:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    "Specifically, it opens up questions about whether Huawei is putting data at risk of slipping into the hands of Chinese state surveillance and intelligence operations. It also raises questions about whether Europe will sharpen its tone with China on sensitive data privacy matters — after years of focusing its ire on Silicon Valley's giants and U.S. state surveillance.

    A judge ruled March 5 that Huawei was in breach of European privacy law when it failed to comply with the former manager's request to view the data the company had kept on him.

    "I simply asked them to tell me what data they had, what they had deleted, when they had deleted it and what data they still had on file" — a former Huawei manager

    edited February 28
  • Reply 59 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,135member

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.


    edited February 28
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.



    The trouble is that I DO understand it. 
    They aren't going to continue running on lies and doing stupid things.  They just won't say it so directly.

    You need to brush up on your diplomatic speech.
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