iPad and Mac growth continue unabated in Q2 2021

AppleInsider · April 28, 2021 9:30PM

Apple saw revenue from its iPad line grow 79% and its Mac line grow 70.1% in record breaking second quarter.

Mac and iPad revenue continue to grow

Apple announced new budget iPads and M1-based Macs at the end of 2020, which fed growth for Q2 2021. The pandemic and work from home efforts have boosted sales of tablets and computers in most markets.

During the second quarter earnings call, Apple CEO Tim Cook said that the last three quarters for Mac were its best ever. The momentum of Mac growth will only be aided by the recently announced 24-inch iMac.

"The demand feels very strong right now," continued Cook. "Both on the Mac side, you have the combination of work from home and remote learning. And in iPad, you've got remote learning and work from home as well."

Mac Quarterly Earnings

The Mac saw revenue of $9.1 billion, up from $5.4 billion in the year-ago quarter -- a 70.1% increase. Customer satisfaction is at 97% for the Mac.

The iPad grew to $7.8 billion from $4.4 billion in the year-ago quarter. This 78.7% growth occurred before Apple updated the iPad Pro with an M1 processor, which could accelerate growth further.

iPad Quarterly Earnings

CFO Luca Maestri said the iPad grew in every geographic segment with sales records in Japan. Customer satisfaction of iPad is at 94%, with half of all new purchases belonging to new users.

The "Spring Loaded" event released new colorful iMacs and powerful iPad Pros that will enter the market during Q3. Expect further growth from each segment thanks to the ongoing hype surrounding the transition to Apple Silicon.

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elijahg · April 28, 2021 10:30PM

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

tmay · April 28, 2021 10:47PM

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

Thank you, so much, for your completely unbiased reading of the results. It's a bold move to voice your opinions so forcefully on AI.

Just the other day, I too was thinking to myself, gee, I wish that Tim Cook would give the Mac more attention. Then I remembered that Apple just recently disrupted the PC business with the M series, and there is still another year and then some of more powerful M series releases just to fill out the existing Mac product line. Heck, Apple is at the front of the line for all of TSMC nodes. I mean, what is that all about?

So now I'm confused.

Is Tim Cook, et al, actually giving too much attention to the Mac?

Why isn't there an M1 iPhone Mega Super Pro Plus model, so I can get me 16 GB of RAM and some USB 4 lovin?

elijahg · April 28, 2021 11:17PM

tmay said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

Thank you, so much, for your completely unbiased reading of the results. It's a bold move to voice your opinions so forcefully on AI.

Just the other day, I too was thinking to myself, gee, I wish that Tim Cook would give the Mac more attention. Then I remembered that Apple just recently disrupted the PC business with the M series, and there is still another year and then some of more powerful M series releases just to fill out the existing Mac product line. Heck, Apple is at the front of the line for all of TSMC nodes. I mean, what is that all about?

So now I'm confused.

Is Tim Cook, et al, actually giving too much attention to the Mac?

Why isn't there an M1 iPhone Mega Super Pro Plus model, so I can get me 16 GB of RAM and some USB 4 lovin?

Not sure you've read my bias quite right, since I am are entirely invested in the Apple ecosystem with a product in every category Apple produces, and I am a shareholder too. Therefore, surely, my bias is pro-Apple?

I noticed you avoided responding to my comment about Mac sales being flat for the last 8 years.

Whilst the update rates have definitely improved in the last couple of years, probably in an attempt to counter those flat sales - and the M1 is absolutely disruptive to those who don't need Windows, just look at the rates of updates over the last 8 or 9 years. The Mac Pro went 6 years without an update. The Mini 4 years. The MacBook Pro, iMac and Macbook Air all had periods where updates were only once every 2 years. A lot of those updates were just minor spec bumps too, but even then Apple missed out entire new generations of CPU and left the rapidly advancing GPUs to stagnate. The iMac Pro was introduced then abandoned. They were selling the Mac Pro for the same price as it was introduced for, 6 years later. If that's not taking the piss, I don't know what is.

canukstorm · April 28, 2021 11:22PM

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

"I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs."

Other than the Mac Mini, the rest of the M1 Macs remained the same price or increased slightly so saving money on the CPU wouldn't affect revenue at all. If anything, it'll positively affect gross margin / gross profit.

tmay · April 28, 2021 11:38PM

elijahg said:

tmay said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

Thank you, so much, for your completely unbiased reading of the results. It's a bold move to voice your opinions so forcefully on AI.

Just the other day, I too was thinking to myself, gee, I wish that Tim Cook would give the Mac more attention. Then I remembered that Apple just recently disrupted the PC business with the M series, and there is still another year and then some of more powerful M series releases just to fill out the existing Mac product line. Heck, Apple is at the front of the line for all of TSMC nodes. I mean, what is that all about?

So now I'm confused.

Is Tim Cook, et al, actually giving too much attention to the Mac?

Why isn't there an M1 iPhone Mega Super Pro Plus model, so I can get me 16 GB of RAM and some USB 4 lovin?

Not sure you've read my bias quite right, since I am are entirely invested in the Apple ecosystem with a product in every category Apple produces, and I am a shareholder too. Therefore, surely, my bias is pro-Apple?

I noticed you avoided responding to my comment about Mac sales being flat for the last 8 years.

Whilst the update rates have definitely improved in the last couple of years, probably in an attempt to counter those flat sales - and the M1 is absolutely disruptive to those who don't need Windows, just look at the rates of updates over the last 8 or 9 years. The Mac Pro went 6 years without an update. The Mini 4 years. The MacBook Pro, iMac and Macbook Air all had periods where updates were only once every 2 years. A lot of those updates were just minor spec bumps too, but even then Apple missed out entire new generations of CPU and left the rapidly advancing GPUs to stagnate. The iMac Pro was introduced then abandoned. They were selling the Mac Pro for the same price as it was introduced for, 6 years later. If that's not taking the piss, I don't know what is.

Thanks for regurgitating the past, which is not indicative of the Mac future, so sorry to burst your PC centric bubble;

Here's what happened in the PC world during that time;

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/pc-sales-finally-saw-big-growth-in-2020-after-years-of-steady-decline/

"During the Consumer Electronics Show this week, research firm IDC released a report on worldwide traditional PC sales in 2020, and it tells a rosier story than we've been used to in recent years. In the fourth quarter of 2020, PC shipments grew 26.1 percent over the same period last year.

That means 13.1 percent year-over-year growth overall, and the best year and quarter for PC sales in quite some time. In total, 91.6 million traditional PCs were shipped in the fourth quarter of 2020. "Traditional PCs" in IDC's report include systems like desktops, laptops, and work stations. For years, sales of these kinds of computers were declining at worst or growing negligibly at best even as other, newer computing gadget categories like smartphones, smart speakers, and tablets grew relatively rapidly.

IDC notes that the last time the market saw this kind of growth was way back in 2010, when modern multitouch smartphones were still building momentum and Apple's very first iPad had only just launched.

The growth was unsurprisingly largely "centered around work from home and remote learning needs," according to the report. But it also notes that segments unrelated to that, like gaming PCs and monitors, also saw significant growth over the course of the year. The overall growth is also partly due to the fact that "Chrome-based devices are expanding beyond education into the consumer market," according to IDC Vice President Ryan Reith."

Good luck on any PC growth as the pandemic ends.

EDIT;

https://twitter.com/neilcybart/status/1387517315512668160

"Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic."

elijahg · April 29, 2021 1:14PM

canukstorm said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

"I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs."

Other than the Mac Mini, the rest of the M1 Macs remained the same price or increased slightly so saving money on the CPU wouldn't affect revenue at all. If anything, it'll positively affect gross margin / gross profit.

Sorry yes you're right, I shouldn't post at the early hours of the morning

Point still stands about soldered RAM though, and the $150 saving Apple makes per M1 Mac is yet more profit in Cook's pocket.

Fidonet127 · April 29, 2021 1:34PM

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

I read all your posts in this topic so far, and I'm failing to any sort of reality in them, except maybe the past 8 years bit and even that fails to meet reality. You say there must of been a drop in sales, yet the market share remains 10%. If market share stays the same over that period of time, then there was an increase of the number of Macs sold as the total market back then is smaller than today's market. That increase of sales is driving the increase in services. Why does out performing in sales matter, except to an investor? Apple out performed in revenue and is a very healthy company. With the stated transition timeline of two years for the entire Mac line up, how does the slow update timeline of the past apply?

As per below, sales numbers is doing really well. Fundamentally, Macs were never Windows computers. The fact Windows could run on Intel Macs were a side benefit. Yes some people want windows on Macs, these sales records are not driven by people who want Windows. Adding to that, Apple said at this last event that they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel Macs.

Apple is performing a Major revamp of it's Mac line, and Rosetta has operated smoothly so I really don't understand how you can say Cook doesn't care about Macs at all.

Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic.

Apple CEO Tim Cook said that the last three quarters for Mac were its best ever.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/30/m1-mac-mini-catapulted-apple-to-number-one-in-japanese-desktop-pc-market

The new M1-equipped Mac mini has propelled Apple to the number one spot in the Japanese desktop PC market in the two weeks after the device's launch.
With the launch of the first Apple Silicon Mac mini on November 17, BCN Retail tracked a surge in Apple computer sales that resulted in the Cupertino tech giant taking the number one spot by sales volume. BCN Retail reports that Apple now has 27.1% of the market, increasing 14.4% percentage points in a single week.

elijahg · April 29, 2021 1:58PM

tmay said:

elijahg said:

tmay said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

Thank you, so much, for your completely unbiased reading of the results. It's a bold move to voice your opinions so forcefully on AI.

Just the other day, I too was thinking to myself, gee, I wish that Tim Cook would give the Mac more attention. Then I remembered that Apple just recently disrupted the PC business with the M series, and there is still another year and then some of more powerful M series releases just to fill out the existing Mac product line. Heck, Apple is at the front of the line for all of TSMC nodes. I mean, what is that all about?

So now I'm confused.

Is Tim Cook, et al, actually giving too much attention to the Mac?

Why isn't there an M1 iPhone Mega Super Pro Plus model, so I can get me 16 GB of RAM and some USB 4 lovin?

Not sure you've read my bias quite right, since I am are entirely invested in the Apple ecosystem with a product in every category Apple produces, and I am a shareholder too. Therefore, surely, my bias is pro-Apple?

I noticed you avoided responding to my comment about Mac sales being flat for the last 8 years.

Whilst the update rates have definitely improved in the last couple of years, probably in an attempt to counter those flat sales - and the M1 is absolutely disruptive to those who don't need Windows, just look at the rates of updates over the last 8 or 9 years. The Mac Pro went 6 years without an update. The Mini 4 years. The MacBook Pro, iMac and Macbook Air all had periods where updates were only once every 2 years. A lot of those updates were just minor spec bumps too, but even then Apple missed out entire new generations of CPU and left the rapidly advancing GPUs to stagnate. The iMac Pro was introduced then abandoned. They were selling the Mac Pro for the same price as it was introduced for, 6 years later. If that's not taking the piss, I don't know what is.

Thanks for regurgitating the past, which is not indicative of the Mac future, so sorry to burst your PC centric bubble;

Here's what happened in the PC world during that time;

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/pc-sales-finally-saw-big-growth-in-2020-after-years-of-steady-decline/

"During the Consumer Electronics Show this week, research firm IDC released a report on worldwide traditional PC sales in 2020, and it tells a rosier story than we've been used to in recent years. In the fourth quarter of 2020, PC shipments grew 26.1 percent over the same period last year.

That means 13.1 percent year-over-year growth overall, and the best year and quarter for PC sales in quite some time. In total, 91.6 million traditional PCs were shipped in the fourth quarter of 2020. "Traditional PCs" in IDC's report include systems like desktops, laptops, and work stations. For years, sales of these kinds of computers were declining at worst or growing negligibly at best even as other, newer computing gadget categories like smartphones, smart speakers, and tablets grew relatively rapidly.
IDC notes that the last time the market saw this kind of growth was way back in 2010, when modern multitouch smartphones were still building momentum and Apple's very first iPad had only just launched.
The growth was unsurprisingly largely "centered around work from home and remote learning needs," according to the report. But it also notes that segments unrelated to that, like gaming PCs and monitors, also saw significant growth over the course of the year. The overall growth is also partly due to the fact that "Chrome-based devices are expanding beyond education into the consumer market," according to IDC Vice President Ryan Reith."

Good luck on any PC growth as the pandemic ends.

EDIT;

https://twitter.com/neilcybart/status/1387517315512668160

"Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic."

So just write off the last 8 years of flat Mac sales and the reasons for it because it's "regurgitating the past" and "not indicative of the Mac future" despite the same trajectory being followed right now, and in fact worse since Apple has bumped prices yet again and still has the same crap base specs other than the CPU speed? Oh and you conveniently missed the point about me owning a product in every category Apple makes. Very PC centric. No, I'm just a realist without my head up Apple's ass. Really think I'd be on AI since 2006 if I wasn't an Apple fan?

You seem to be confusing wider PC market growth with Mac growth. As I said, there is no Mac growth, it is largely flat, aligned with the rest of the PC market. The bump we are seeing now in both Mac and PC market is due to the pandemic, and Mac sales will decline back to pre-pandemic levels just like PCs. No matter how you try and spin it, Mac sales are not outpacing the wider market unlike pre-2012. They are too expensive, they are not good value anymore especially in the face of Windows 10 not being anywhere near as bad as previous versions, and macOS getting buggier.

You obviously don't understand why "half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories" is a bad thing. If the sales were up year on year then great, adding 50% more new Mac users is a good thing. But that's not happening. Sales are flat, which means the number of people new to the Mac is equal to those leaving the Mac too. That is not a good thing. It could be that Mac users are keeping their Macs for much longer all of a sudden, which no doubt is happening due to the cost of a Mac, but it's likely not significant (otherwise there would be an eventual upward trend again, and there isn't).

Let me put it into numbers for you. Mac sales are flat, so there are the same number of new users joining the Mac platform each year. So if Apple sells 100,000 Macs each year for 3 years and 50% of those sales are to new Mac owners, that is 150,000 Macs sold to new users, and 150,000 to existing Mac users; or 50,000 Macs to each group per year. Assuming people keep Macs for 3 years before buying new, and if 100% of those Mac users bought Macs again, then in the fourth year, there should be the 100,000 from existing users (people new to Mac and those who are not), added to the 50,000 new users, resulting in an exponential growth curve. But there is no growth. Because people aren't sticking with the Mac. And once people leave, they don't go back.

I know plenty of people who I have personally persuaded to buy a Mac who have gone back to Windows. And the reason is cost. I know people too who will not buy a M1 Mac as they need Windows since they use more than Pages and Safari, and I am in that group. For the first time in 25 years of Mac ownership, I am going to have to seriously consider switching to a PC when my iMac gets too old. It saddens me that the Mac going in the same direction it was in the '90's. Expensive, proprietary and incompatible.

elijahg · April 29, 2021 2:26PM

Fidonet127 said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

I read all your posts in this topic so far, and I'm failing to any sort of reality in them, except maybe the past 8 years bit and even that fails to meet reality. You say there must of been a drop in sales, yet the market share remains 10%. If market share stays the same over that period of time, then there was an increase of the number of Macs sold as the total market back then is smaller than today's market. That increase of sales is driving the increase in services. Why does out performing in sales matter, except to an investor? Apple out performed in revenue and is a very healthy company. With the stated transition timeline of two years for the entire Mac line up, how does the slow update timeline of the past apply?

As per below, sales numbers is doing really well. Fundamentally, Macs were never Windows computers. The fact Windows could run on Intel Macs were a side benefit. Yes some people want windows on Macs, these sales records are not driven by people who want Windows. Adding to that, Apple said at this last event that they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel Macs.

Apple is performing a Major revamp of it's Mac line, and Rosetta has operated smoothly so I really don't understand how you can say Cook doesn't care about Macs at all.
Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic.
Apple CEO Tim Cook said that the last three quarters for Mac were its best ever.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/30/m1-mac-mini-catapulted-apple-to-number-one-in-japanese-desktop-pc-market
The new M1-equipped Mac mini has propelled Apple to the number one spot in the Japanese desktop PC market in the two weeks after the device's launch.
With the launch of the first Apple Silicon Mac mini on November 17, BCN Retail tracked a surge in Apple computer sales that resulted in the Cupertino tech giant taking the number one spot by sales volume. BCN Retail reports that Apple now has 27.1% of the market, increasing 14.4% percentage points in a single week.

The marketshare has been flat at 10% because the wider PC market has not grown. You can see the stats for yourself, that prove sales are flat. Why do you think Apple stopped reporting sales? The services increase is pretty much all down to the iPhone, which has grown (though only slightly outperformed the market). Outperforming sales matters to customers because it means big developers are more likely to take notice. This is especially important when people can't just fire up Windows to run some essential app. In the '90s when Apple was seriously flagging, there were barely any developers left on Mac OS. I don't want that to happen again. Apple's revenue makes zero difference to customers, other than customers being shafted due to the cost of the Macs.

The PPC to Intel transition took 210 days, so following Apple's projection the x86 to M1 transition is much slower right off the bat. But it remains to be seen if Apple gets bored of the Mac again and abandons it stuck with old CPUs like the did in the Intel days. I hope they don't, I want Macs to be successful enough that big devs take notice and produce their apps for more than Windows; especially important with Windows support being dropped.

The market is up due to the pandemic. It will likely return to normal soon, and Mac sales will be down next year, along with PC sales. Good that in one traditionally Mac loving market sales are up, but this is not a normal year, look at pre-2020.

The ability to run Windows on Macs was more than a "side benefit" and more "critically important" for many. The business I worked at used to dual boot, almost everyone I know with a Mac has Windows on it too, including me.

I imagine they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel ones: who would buy an Intel Mac now when it'll be forcibly obsoleted in a few years?

You can see Cook's lack of interest in his presentations, though I admit that is a pretty general thing (especially when compared to his introduction of AppleTV+ where he was like a kid in a sweet shop). Ex-engineers have said he seems to dislike the Mac too.

tmay · April 29, 2021 3:07PM

elijahg said:

tmay said:

elijahg said:

tmay said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

Thank you, so much, for your completely unbiased reading of the results. It's a bold move to voice your opinions so forcefully on AI.

Just the other day, I too was thinking to myself, gee, I wish that Tim Cook would give the Mac more attention. Then I remembered that Apple just recently disrupted the PC business with the M series, and there is still another year and then some of more powerful M series releases just to fill out the existing Mac product line. Heck, Apple is at the front of the line for all of TSMC nodes. I mean, what is that all about?

So now I'm confused.

Is Tim Cook, et al, actually giving too much attention to the Mac?

Why isn't there an M1 iPhone Mega Super Pro Plus model, so I can get me 16 GB of RAM and some USB 4 lovin?

Not sure you've read my bias quite right, since I am are entirely invested in the Apple ecosystem with a product in every category Apple produces, and I am a shareholder too. Therefore, surely, my bias is pro-Apple?

I noticed you avoided responding to my comment about Mac sales being flat for the last 8 years.

Whilst the update rates have definitely improved in the last couple of years, probably in an attempt to counter those flat sales - and the M1 is absolutely disruptive to those who don't need Windows, just look at the rates of updates over the last 8 or 9 years. The Mac Pro went 6 years without an update. The Mini 4 years. The MacBook Pro, iMac and Macbook Air all had periods where updates were only once every 2 years. A lot of those updates were just minor spec bumps too, but even then Apple missed out entire new generations of CPU and left the rapidly advancing GPUs to stagnate. The iMac Pro was introduced then abandoned. They were selling the Mac Pro for the same price as it was introduced for, 6 years later. If that's not taking the piss, I don't know what is.

Thanks for regurgitating the past, which is not indicative of the Mac future, so sorry to burst your PC centric bubble;

Here's what happened in the PC world during that time;

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/pc-sales-finally-saw-big-growth-in-2020-after-years-of-steady-decline/

"During the Consumer Electronics Show this week, research firm IDC released a report on worldwide traditional PC sales in 2020, and it tells a rosier story than we've been used to in recent years. In the fourth quarter of 2020, PC shipments grew 26.1 percent over the same period last year.

That means 13.1 percent year-over-year growth overall, and the best year and quarter for PC sales in quite some time. In total, 91.6 million traditional PCs were shipped in the fourth quarter of 2020. "Traditional PCs" in IDC's report include systems like desktops, laptops, and work stations. For years, sales of these kinds of computers were declining at worst or growing negligibly at best even as other, newer computing gadget categories like smartphones, smart speakers, and tablets grew relatively rapidly.
IDC notes that the last time the market saw this kind of growth was way back in 2010, when modern multitouch smartphones were still building momentum and Apple's very first iPad had only just launched.
The growth was unsurprisingly largely "centered around work from home and remote learning needs," according to the report. But it also notes that segments unrelated to that, like gaming PCs and monitors, also saw significant growth over the course of the year. The overall growth is also partly due to the fact that "Chrome-based devices are expanding beyond education into the consumer market," according to IDC Vice President Ryan Reith."

Good luck on any PC growth as the pandemic ends.

EDIT;

https://twitter.com/neilcybart/status/1387517315512668160

"Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic."

So just write off the last 8 years of flat Mac sales and the reasons for it because it's "regurgitating the past" and "not indicative of the Mac future" despite the same trajectory being followed right now, and in fact worse since Apple has bumped prices yet again and still has the same crap base specs other than the CPU speed? Oh and you conveniently missed the point about me owning a product in every category Apple makes. Very PC centric. No, I'm just a realist without my head up Apple's ass. Really think I'd be on AI since 2006 if I wasn't an Apple fan?

You seem to be confusing wider PC market growth with Mac growth. As I said, there is no Mac growth, it is largely flat, aligned with the rest of the PC market. The bump we are seeing now in both Mac and PC market is due to the pandemic, and Mac sales will decline back to pre-pandemic levels just like PCs. No matter how you try and spin it, Mac sales are not outpacing the wider market unlike pre-2012. They are too expensive, they are not good value anymore especially in the face of Windows 10 not being anywhere near as bad as previous versions, and macOS getting buggier.

You obviously don't understand why "half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories" is a bad thing. If the sales were up year on year then great, adding 50% more new Mac users is a good thing. But that's not happening. Sales are flat, which means the number of people new to the Mac is equal to those leaving the Mac too. That is not a good thing. It could be that Mac users are keeping their Macs for much longer all of a sudden, which no doubt is happening due to the cost of a Mac, but it's likely not significant (otherwise there would be an eventual upward trend again, and there isn't).

Let me put it into numbers for you. Mac sales are flat, so there are the same number of new users joining the Mac platform each year. So if Apple sells 100,000 Macs each year for 3 years and 50% of those sales are to new Mac owners, that is 150,000 Macs sold to new users, and 150,000 to existing Mac users; or 50,000 Macs to each group per year. Assuming people keep Macs for 3 years before buying new, and if 100% of those Mac users bought Macs again, then in the fourth year, there should be the 100,000 from existing users (people new to Mac and those who are not), added to the 50,000 new users, resulting in an exponential growth curve. But there is no growth. Because people aren't sticking with the Mac. And once people leave, they don't go back.

I know plenty of people who I have personally persuaded to buy a Mac who have gone back to Windows. And the reason is cost. I know people too who will not buy a M1 Mac as they need Windows since they use more than Pages and Safari, and I am in that group. For the first time in 25 years of Mac ownership, I am going to have to seriously consider switching to a PC when my iMac gets too old. It saddens me that the Mac going in the same direction it was in the '90's. Expensive, proprietary and incompatible.

https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS47601721

I dunno, but 110% unit sales increase YoY indicates other than a trend of "flat sales".

Still, I'm willing to wait until after further M series releases this fall, to see how that trend holds up, but my instinct, is that people really, really, like the new mac's, and they aren't in fact too expensive, based on sales.

For the first time in 25 years of Mac ownership, I am going to have to seriously consider switching to a PC when my iMac gets too old. It saddens me that the Mac going in the same direction it was in the '90's. Expensive, proprietary and incompatible.

Buh bye, and don't let that proverbial door hit you in the ass on the way out, and more to the point, does that mean you'll stop posting too?

Fidonet127 · April 29, 2021 3:08PM

elijahg said:

Fidonet127 said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

I read all your posts in this topic so far, and I'm failing to any sort of reality in them, except maybe the past 8 years bit and even that fails to meet reality. You say there must of been a drop in sales, yet the market share remains 10%. If market share stays the same over that period of time, then there was an increase of the number of Macs sold as the total market back then is smaller than today's market. That increase of sales is driving the increase in services. Why does out performing in sales matter, except to an investor? Apple out performed in revenue and is a very healthy company. With the stated transition timeline of two years for the entire Mac line up, how does the slow update timeline of the past apply?

As per below, sales numbers is doing really well. Fundamentally, Macs were never Windows computers. The fact Windows could run on Intel Macs were a side benefit. Yes some people want windows on Macs, these sales records are not driven by people who want Windows. Adding to that, Apple said at this last event that they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel Macs.

Apple is performing a Major revamp of it's Mac line, and Rosetta has operated smoothly so I really don't understand how you can say Cook doesn't care about Macs at all.
Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic.
Apple CEO Tim Cook said that the last three quarters for Mac were its best ever.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/30/m1-mac-mini-catapulted-apple-to-number-one-in-japanese-desktop-pc-market
The new M1-equipped Mac mini has propelled Apple to the number one spot in the Japanese desktop PC market in the two weeks after the device's launch.
With the launch of the first Apple Silicon Mac mini on November 17, BCN Retail tracked a surge in Apple computer sales that resulted in the Cupertino tech giant taking the number one spot by sales volume. BCN Retail reports that Apple now has 27.1% of the market, increasing 14.4% percentage points in a single week.

The marketshare has been flat at 10% because the wider PC market has not grown. You can see the stats for yourself, that prove sales are flat. Why do you think Apple stopped reporting sales? The services increase is pretty much all down to the iPhone, which has grown (though only slightly outperformed the market). Outperforming sales matters to customers because it means big developers are more likely to take notice. This is especially important when people can't just fire up Windows to run some essential app. In the '90s when Apple was seriously flagging, there were barely any developers left on Mac OS. I don't want that to happen again. Apple's revenue makes zero difference to customers, other than customers being shafted due to the cost of the Macs.

The PPC to Intel transition took 210 days, so following Apple's projection the x86 to M1 transition is much slower right off the bat. But it remains to be seen if Apple gets bored of the Mac again and abandons it stuck with old CPUs like the did in the Intel days. I hope they don't, I want Macs to be successful enough that big devs take notice and produce their apps for more than Windows; especially important with Windows support being dropped.

The market is up due to the pandemic. It will likely return to normal soon, and Mac sales will be down next year, along with PC sales. Good that in one traditionally Mac loving market sales are up, but this is not a normal year, look at pre-2020.

The ability to run Windows on Macs was more than a "side benefit" and more "critically important" for many. The business I worked at used to dual boot, almost everyone I know with a Mac has Windows on it too, including me.

I imagine they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel ones: who would buy an Intel Mac now when it'll be forcibly obsoleted in a few years?

You can see Cook's lack of interest in his presentations, though I admit that is a pretty general thing (especially when compared to his introduction of AppleTV+ where he was like a kid in a sweet shop). Ex-engineers have said he seems to dislike the Mac too.

You complain that others ignored what you said, yet you ignore what others say. Your links take me to a paywall. You are not understanding the basic point that sales is NOT flat because the market share is flat. That isn't how percentages work. You claim Macs sold remains a flat 10% of market share, fine. 10% of 100 million is 10 million, 10% of 200 million is 20 million, etc. If the total market goes up, and the percentage of market share stays the same, then the number of Macs sold goes up, whereas if the total market goes down and the percentage of market share stays the same, the number of Macs sold goes down. Developers do not care about market share. Developers do care about number of Macs in use, percentage of OS usage and the ability to make a buck. You ignored that Macs reached a sales record in Japan. You ignored how much demand there is for ASi Macs. The Macs are long term cycle for many people. Others are on one to three year replacement. I'm one of the long term replacement, coming from 2014 Macs that are having problems. I don't have the budget and there is not the compelling reason when they can run the latest OS for free. So despite the cost, it works out to be very low cost to keep with Macs. I know many people who are upgrading to ASi Macs from really old Macs.

Running Windows on a Mac was always a side benefit, period. You may not want to hear that, but that has always been true. It doesn't matter if many people want to do that, or even if it was a critical part of some people's workflow. Software developers are working to make it happen again. Your choices are find alternatives to Windows, wait for software developers or get a windows PC. Windows is not a part of my home life. As you are ignoring the data that ASi Macs are a success, you are also ignoring that Windows is NOT important to these people who buy ASi Macs.

tmay · April 29, 2021 3:17PM

Fidonet127 said:

elijahg said:

Fidonet127 said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

I read all your posts in this topic so far, and I'm failing to any sort of reality in them, except maybe the past 8 years bit and even that fails to meet reality. You say there must of been a drop in sales, yet the market share remains 10%. If market share stays the same over that period of time, then there was an increase of the number of Macs sold as the total market back then is smaller than today's market. That increase of sales is driving the increase in services. Why does out performing in sales matter, except to an investor? Apple out performed in revenue and is a very healthy company. With the stated transition timeline of two years for the entire Mac line up, how does the slow update timeline of the past apply?

As per below, sales numbers is doing really well. Fundamentally, Macs were never Windows computers. The fact Windows could run on Intel Macs were a side benefit. Yes some people want windows on Macs, these sales records are not driven by people who want Windows. Adding to that, Apple said at this last event that they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel Macs.

Apple is performing a Major revamp of it's Mac line, and Rosetta has operated smoothly so I really don't understand how you can say Cook doesn't care about Macs at all.
Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic.
Apple CEO Tim Cook said that the last three quarters for Mac were its best ever.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/30/m1-mac-mini-catapulted-apple-to-number-one-in-japanese-desktop-pc-market
The new M1-equipped Mac mini has propelled Apple to the number one spot in the Japanese desktop PC market in the two weeks after the device's launch.
With the launch of the first Apple Silicon Mac mini on November 17, BCN Retail tracked a surge in Apple computer sales that resulted in the Cupertino tech giant taking the number one spot by sales volume. BCN Retail reports that Apple now has 27.1% of the market, increasing 14.4% percentage points in a single week.

The marketshare has been flat at 10% because the wider PC market has not grown. You can see the stats for yourself, that prove sales are flat. Why do you think Apple stopped reporting sales? The services increase is pretty much all down to the iPhone, which has grown (though only slightly outperformed the market). Outperforming sales matters to customers because it means big developers are more likely to take notice. This is especially important when people can't just fire up Windows to run some essential app. In the '90s when Apple was seriously flagging, there were barely any developers left on Mac OS. I don't want that to happen again. Apple's revenue makes zero difference to customers, other than customers being shafted due to the cost of the Macs.

The PPC to Intel transition took 210 days, so following Apple's projection the x86 to M1 transition is much slower right off the bat. But it remains to be seen if Apple gets bored of the Mac again and abandons it stuck with old CPUs like the did in the Intel days. I hope they don't, I want Macs to be successful enough that big devs take notice and produce their apps for more than Windows; especially important with Windows support being dropped.

The market is up due to the pandemic. It will likely return to normal soon, and Mac sales will be down next year, along with PC sales. Good that in one traditionally Mac loving market sales are up, but this is not a normal year, look at pre-2020.

The ability to run Windows on Macs was more than a "side benefit" and more "critically important" for many. The business I worked at used to dual boot, almost everyone I know with a Mac has Windows on it too, including me.

I imagine they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel ones: who would buy an Intel Mac now when it'll be forcibly obsoleted in a few years?

You can see Cook's lack of interest in his presentations, though I admit that is a pretty general thing (especially when compared to his introduction of AppleTV+ where he was like a kid in a sweet shop). Ex-engineers have said he seems to dislike the Mac too.

You complain that others ignored what you said, yet you ignore what others say. Your links take me to a paywall. You are not understanding the basic point that sales is NOT flat because the market share is flat. That isn't how percentages work. You claim Macs sold remains a flat 10% of market share, fine. 10% of 100 million is 10 million, 10% of 200 million is 20 million, etc. If the total market goes up, and the percentage of market share stays the same, then the number of Macs sold goes up, whereas if the total market goes down and the percentage of market share stays the same, the number of Macs sold goes down. Developers do not care about market share. Developers do care about number of Macs in use, percentage of OS usage and the ability to make a buck. You ignored that Macs reached a sales record in Japan. You ignored how much demand there is for ASi Macs. The Macs are long term cycle for many people. Others are on one to three year replacement. I'm one of the long term replacement, coming from 2014 Macs that are having problems. I don't have the budget and there is not the compelling reason when they can run the latest OS for free. So despite the cost, it works out to be very low cost to keep with Macs. I know many people who are upgrading to ASi Macs from really old Macs.

Running Windows on a Mac was always a side benefit, period. You may not want to hear that, but that has always been true. It doesn't matter if many people want to do that, or even if it was a critical part of some people's workflow. Software developers are working to make it happen again. Your choices are find alternatives to Windows, wait for software developers or get a windows PC. Windows is not a part of my home life. As you are ignoring the data that ASi Macs are a success, you are also ignoring that Windows is NOT important to these people who buy ASi Macs.

I'm also running an older mac, a late 2014 iMac, and I can't wait until the "pro" version shows up this fall. This is going to be the easiest buying decision ever, well, except for how I option it out.

crowley · April 29, 2021 3:29PM

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

Are you confusing revenue with profit? If you're not I don't know why the guesstimate at a price for the M1 or soldered RAM has any relevance. Also, if average sale value stays the same, then revenue very much does equal sales. You'll need to demonstrate an increased average sale value to prove that sales aren't increasing at the same rate as revenue, and a significantly increased average sale value if you're claiming that sales are flat.

Why "should" Mac sales be outperforming the market if the market is in a boom? If Mac sales are matching the market then they're booming. Apple has run out of people to buy Macs even thought they're matching market growth in a boom period? I'm scepitcal of your scepticism. Sounds like you're scratching around trying to find negatives in a blowout report.

Fidonet127 · April 29, 2021 6:12PM

tmay said:
I'm also running an older mac, a late 2014 iMac, and I can't wait until the "pro" version shows up this fall. This is going to be the easiest buying decision ever, well, except for how I option it out.

I didn't wait. I find the M1s a massive upgrade. My 2014 mini needs an upgrade. I can replace the HD myself, however I don't know if it is really worth fixing, as the upgrades are more on the new iMac. The number of ports do not matter to me as I have a couple of usb hubs running off the mini already. My M1 mini replaced a 2009 iMac, and the MacBook Pro replaced the Mac Book Air. The Air went to our child.

[Deleted User] · April 29, 2021 6:57PM

I expect the iMac 24 growth to be in excess of 31% by end of 2021.

canukstorm · April 29, 2021 9:21PM

elijahg said:

Fidonet127 said:

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

I read all your posts in this topic so far, and I'm failing to any sort of reality in them, except maybe the past 8 years bit and even that fails to meet reality. You say there must of been a drop in sales, yet the market share remains 10%. If market share stays the same over that period of time, then there was an increase of the number of Macs sold as the total market back then is smaller than today's market. That increase of sales is driving the increase in services. Why does out performing in sales matter, except to an investor? Apple out performed in revenue and is a very healthy company. With the stated transition timeline of two years for the entire Mac line up, how does the slow update timeline of the past apply?

As per below, sales numbers is doing really well. Fundamentally, Macs were never Windows computers. The fact Windows could run on Intel Macs were a side benefit. Yes some people want windows on Macs, these sales records are not driven by people who want Windows. Adding to that, Apple said at this last event that they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel Macs.

Apple is performing a Major revamp of it's Mac line, and Rosetta has operated smoothly so I really don't understand how you can say Cook doesn't care about Macs at all.
Half of people buying iPads and Macs are new to the product categories. It's been that way for a while now and it's still a shocking statistic.
Apple CEO Tim Cook said that the last three quarters for Mac were its best ever.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/30/m1-mac-mini-catapulted-apple-to-number-one-in-japanese-desktop-pc-market
The new M1-equipped Mac mini has propelled Apple to the number one spot in the Japanese desktop PC market in the two weeks after the device's launch.
With the launch of the first Apple Silicon Mac mini on November 17, BCN Retail tracked a surge in Apple computer sales that resulted in the Cupertino tech giant taking the number one spot by sales volume. BCN Retail reports that Apple now has 27.1% of the market, increasing 14.4% percentage points in a single week.

The marketshare has been flat at 10% because the wider PC market has not grown. You can see the stats for yourself, that prove sales are flat. Why do you think Apple stopped reporting sales? The services increase is pretty much all down to the iPhone, which has grown (though only slightly outperformed the market). Outperforming sales matters to customers because it means big developers are more likely to take notice. This is especially important when people can't just fire up Windows to run some essential app. In the '90s when Apple was seriously flagging, there were barely any developers left on Mac OS. I don't want that to happen again. Apple's revenue makes zero difference to customers, other than customers being shafted due to the cost of the Macs.

The PPC to Intel transition took 210 days, so following Apple's projection the x86 to M1 transition is much slower right off the bat. But it remains to be seen if Apple gets bored of the Mac again and abandons it stuck with old CPUs like the did in the Intel days. I hope they don't, I want Macs to be successful enough that big devs take notice and produce their apps for more than Windows; especially important with Windows support being dropped.

The market is up due to the pandemic. It will likely return to normal soon, and Mac sales will be down next year, along with PC sales. Good that in one traditionally Mac loving market sales are up, but this is not a normal year, look at pre-2020.

The ability to run Windows on Macs was more than a "side benefit" and more "critically important" for many. The business I worked at used to dual boot, almost everyone I know with a Mac has Windows on it too, including me.

I imagine they are selling more ASi Macs than Intel ones: who would buy an Intel Mac now when it'll be forcibly obsoleted in a few years?

You can see Cook's lack of interest in his presentations, though I admit that is a pretty general thing (especially when compared to his introduction of AppleTV+ where he was like a kid in a sweet shop). Ex-engineers have said he seems to dislike the Mac too.

"In the '90s when Apple was seriously flagging, there were barely any developers left on Mac OS. I don't want that to happen again. Apple's revenue makes zero difference to customers, other than customers being shafted due to the cost of the Macs."

There hasn't been a new Mac specific (AKA AppKit) app in a long time. Any reinvigoration of the Mac app market will come from iOS / iPadOS developers which is why Apple is heavily promoting Catalyst & SwiftUI and I suspect Apple knows this. I don't foresee a bright future for Mac-only developers. Apple's interest with respect to its developers lies in promoting cross-platform (Apple's platforms of course) apps.

"Ex-engineers have said he seems to dislike the Mac too."

I'd be surprised of this considering the amount of investment they're pouring into creating a family of SoC's for the Mac and the redesigned Macs that will be coming, starting with the current new iMac. Why go through all of that if you don't like the Mac?

canukstorm · April 29, 2021 9:23PM

Hubro said:

I expect the iMac 24 growth to be in excess of 31% by end of 2021.

As much as I really like the new iMac, I'd be surprised if it's that high. There just isn't a huge market for desktops anymore. The personal computing space is dominated by smartphones, laptops, & tablets.

[Deleted User] · April 29, 2021 9:32PM

canukstorm said:

Hubro said:

I expect the iMac 24 growth to be in excess of 31% by end of 2021.

As much as I really like the new iMac, I'd be surprised if it's that high. There just isn't a huge market for desktops anymore. The personal computing space is dominated by smartphones, laptops, & tablets.

About 31% growth should turn it into a 32"

MisterKit · April 30, 2021 7:28PM

Apparently Apple is doing something right to be a 2 trillion world leading company. This is something to learn from, not badmouth.

Beats · May 1, 2021 7:20AM

elijahg said:

"Mac growth continues unabated" is pretty misleading. Revenue ≠ sales. I wonder how much of that extra revenue is down to the estimated $40-50 for the M1 vs the $200+ for the Intel CPUs. Also, since soldered RAM has been a thing since 2015 with no appreciable bump in revenue there must have been a drop in sales to keep revenue flat (or no one upgrades the RAM, unlikely). In fact, 2016's Mac revenue was down on 2015. Interesting that they don't report sales, companies stop doing that when numbers are no longer impressive. Wishy washy language like "The demand feels very strong right now" doesn't really say anything. Sales according to third parties have been largely flat since about 2012, which is corroborated by Mac's market share being stuck at 10% for a very long time. Mac sales are growing with the market, not outperforming as they should be. Sales of all computers are up significantly in the pandemic. Apple has essentially run out of people who will fork out for Macs, whose prices continue to rise. This is a real shame, as Mac growth had real momentum until ~2012. I wish Cook would give the Mac more attention, but it's obvious he doesn't care about it at all.

This reads like a parody.

Apple stopped reporting sales on everything because it confused people and made analysts manipulate the stock and gave away secrets to knockoff Apple companies. Keeping them in the dark has helped Apple a ton!! (Notice the smartwatch industry is confused?)

This reminds me of the idiots(not calling you one) who said Apple Watch was a failure because Apple was “hiding” sales figures even though Apple announced they would stop reporting sales BEFORE the Apple Watch launch.

”Tim doesn’t care about Macs” meme.
That’s what we thought for years until M1.

iPad and Mac growth continue unabated in Q2 2021

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