Russian kangaroo court fines Apple two seconds of profit over News row

Posted:
in General Discussion

A Russian court this week fined Apple about $4200 for failing to suppress Apple News content about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, equivalent to barely over two seconds of profit for the company.

Moscow, Russia
Moscow, Russia



Apple was found guilty of violating a law "against discrediting Russia's military and spreading false information about the Ukraine conflict" by a justice of the peace in a magistrate's court, according to the Associated Press. Specifically, the court found podcasts and articles offered through Apple News to be at odds with current Russian law prohibiting discussion of the war siding with Ukraine.

It's not clear if the court differentiated Apple News as an aggregator, or as a writer of content. Also not clear is if it was interested in the distinction.

Also cited in the ruling was The Wikimedia Foundation, publisher of Wikipedia. Wikimedia faces a stiffer fine totaling 3 million roubles, or about $31,850 at today's exchange rate. Wikimedia has previously indicated that its information was well-sourced and in line with its standards, reported Reuters.

Apple stopped all sales and operations in Russia shortly after the country invaded neighboring Ukraine. But that hasn't stopped Russian authorities from pursuing the company in and out of court.

Earlier in 2023, Apple lost a staggering one hour of profit to Russia over supposed antitrust violations related to the App Store.

And in June, Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) alleged Apple made backdoors into iOS to enable the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) to surveil Russian officials and civilians. Apple immediately refuted the allegation, stating that it has "never worked with any government to insert a backdoor into any Apple product and never will."

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 17
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,257member
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics, just like in every country. Apple needs to adhere to the rules of each country and Americans need to allow Apple to do that. It would be nice if everyone liked everyone else but I don’t ever see that happening. 
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 17
    igorskyigorsky Posts: 759member
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 

    xyzzy-xxxwilliamlondonFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 3 of 17
    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 
    I think it's just like any other wars, whether it's the Nazi from WWII or the Vietnam War from the U.S. side, majority of people just followed the leader blindly and killed civilians without remorse. Human, I can't believe we made it this far without extinction.
    edited August 2023 xyzzy-xxxbaconstangmattinozwilliamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 17
    baconstangbaconstang Posts: 1,114member
    Pay them with App Store credit...
    iOS_Guy80watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 17
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,780member
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    and the freedom to not only not burn it, but be proud of all it represents. They can burn their own flag they bought or made, but not someone else’s or property of the government. That’s stealing and destruction of property. Also just burning anything anywhere is illegal. They’re not free to do that. If they want to do so in their fireplace at home or in a permitted area, fine. Go buy a flag from the store and take it home for firestarter. But to do so in the public square? Negative. Not free to do so. Heck, people celebrating true freedom can’t even light a small firework in most places. 

    Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice, for which we all must be thankful. The fascists calling themselves anti-fascists are defined by much more than just burning a flag. They are domestic terrorists have no respect for the freedoms of others. It’s their way or else. They riot, yet violently shut down the freedom of speech and freedom of protest of others. Our soldiers, present and past, have vowed to fight against both foreign and domestic enemies. Let’s not pretend our brave men and women had these spoiled punks on their minds when they were facing eternity. Certainly they have freedom to be disrespectful. That doesn’t make it good. But some of the things they do, such as destruction of property, harassment, and assault, are not covered under freedom - that’s infringing on the freedom of others. You go to jail for that. 

    Just like with Russia. We have a regime dining Apple for simply allowing freedom of the press. Yet here in the USA we have suppression of free speech and press as well with the government colluding with social media to suppress news and censor those who  say something they don’t like. As Americans we need to keep our eyes and ears open and stop tolerating those who strip our freedoms away not by wit with new excuse after new excuse. “Oh no! There’s a disease. Lock everyone up and shut down their businesses. Oh no! Some violent criminal used weapons! Take away everyone’s right to bear arms. Oh no! We are getting caught lying about various things! Take away people right to free speech and calling out our lies. Enough is enough. Whether you read, watch, post, etc on apple products, with speech, the newspaper, android, whatever, it’s time we stopped just accepting the spoon fed drivel and speak up where we can. That includes the freedom to show up and vote our conscience. 


    FileMakerFeller
  • Reply 6 of 17
    hagarhagar Posts: 131member
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 

    You could be right. That’s what you get when there’s no free press. Or when the free press gets undermined like what happened in the US.  Half the country lives in a completely delusional phantasy world, only believing what Trump and the GOP tell them.  Very dangerous. 
    williamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobraAlex_Vbaconstang
  • Reply 7 of 17
    Pay them with App Store credit...
    4,200 free downloads of the Russian national anthem.
    williamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobrabaconstang
  • Reply 8 of 17
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,345member
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 

    I don't think there's enough reliable information about Russian public opinion to score whether that bet is won or lost. 

    We know there exist people who gleefully support the war. 
    We know that there are large numbers of people who fled Russia to avoid being sent to fight in the war. 
    We can reasonably suspect that anybody staying behind who does NOT support the war would be wise to keep that lack of support to themselves. 

    But we really have no idea what proportion of the Russian population genuinely supports the war -- and we may never know. 
    williamlondonravnorodombageljoeyFileMakerFellerwatto_cobraAlex_Vbaconstang
  • Reply 9 of 17
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,345member
    Apple should take that fine, multiply it by 1,000, and donate it to Ukraine. 
    williamlondonbageljoey
  • Reply 10 of 17
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,865member
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    and the freedom to not only not burn it, but be proud of all it represents. They can burn their own flag they bought or made, but not someone else’s or property of the government. That’s stealing and destruction of property. Also just burning anything anywhere is illegal. They’re not free to do that. If they want to do so in their fireplace at home or in a permitted area, fine. Go buy a flag from the store and take it home for firestarter. But to do so in the public square? Negative. Not free to do so. Heck, people celebrating true freedom can’t even light a small firework in most places. 

    Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice, for which we all must be thankful. The fascists calling themselves anti-fascists are defined by much more than just burning a flag. They are domestic terrorists have no respect for the freedoms of others. It’s their way or else. They riot, yet violently shut down the freedom of speech and freedom of protest of others. Our soldiers, present and past, have vowed to fight against both foreign and domestic enemies. Let’s not pretend our brave men and women had these spoiled punks on their minds when they were facing eternity. Certainly they have freedom to be disrespectful. That doesn’t make it good. But some of the things they do, such as destruction of property, harassment, and assault, are not covered under freedom - that’s infringing on the freedom of others. You go to jail for that. 

    Just like with Russia. We have a regime dining Apple for simply allowing freedom of the press. Yet here in the USA we have suppression of free speech and press as well with the government colluding with social media to suppress news and censor those who  say something they don’t like. As Americans we need to keep our eyes and ears open and stop tolerating those who strip our freedoms away not by wit with new excuse after new excuse. “Oh no! There’s a disease. Lock everyone up and shut down their businesses. Oh no! Some violent criminal used weapons! Take away everyone’s right to bear arms. Oh no! We are getting caught lying about various things! Take away people right to free speech and calling out our lies. Enough is enough. Whether you read, watch, post, etc on apple products, with speech, the newspaper, android, whatever, it’s time we stopped just accepting the spoon fed drivel and speak up where we can. That includes the freedom to show up and vote our conscience. 


    While I disagree with almost all of what you say, I have to take particular exception with this statement: "Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice."

    Did they not fight and die for freedom? For our 
    constitution and all the freedoms it guarantees, including the freedom of speech? Then how can it possibly, "disrespect their great sacrifice," when Americans exercise those very freedoms in whatever form that takes? Do we not actually honor them when we engage in freedom of speech, particularly when that speech is not popular? I say we do. Not a single American died to defend the flag, they died defending what the flag stands for, and it cheapens their sacrifice to say otherwise.

    The flag itself is just a piece of cloth of no significant value. However, what the flag symbolizes is of the greatest value. People objecting to flag burning as a form of protest, of protected speech, either don't understand what free speech is, or don't actually believe in it. Burning a flag as a form of protest because you think your country is on the wrong path is one of the most powerful statements you can make. It should not be done casually, but we should celebrate that they have the freedom to do it. When we loose the freedom to burn the flag, we will have lost the very thing those soldiers died to defend. 
    sphericilarynx9secondkox2williamlondonbageljoeyFileMakerFellerbaconstangmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 11 of 17
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,575member
    If this was a magistrate's court, and they were fined for violating a law that the court upheld, that's a formal institution, not a "kangaroo court". 

    Calling it a "kangaroo court" blurs the line between reporting and opinion piece in the very headline, in a way that doesn't even reflect the actual happenings. 

    Not a hallmark of respectable journalism. 
    williamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 17
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,869administrator
    spheric said:
    If this was a magistrate's court, and they were fined for violating a law that the court upheld, that's a formal institution, not a "kangaroo court". 

    Calling it a "kangaroo court" blurs the line between reporting and opinion piece in the very headline, in a way that doesn't even reflect the actual happenings. 

    Not a hallmark of respectable journalism. 
    You're welcome to believe what you want. However, the Russian law doesn't apply to aggregators like Apple News, and the like. Apple is not the creator of the content, and by the law on the books, is not liable for it.

    The court found Apple guilty anyway. Seems pretty clear.
    ilarynx9secondkox2blastdoorwilliamlondonbageljoeywatto_cobrabaconstangqwerty52
  • Reply 13 of 17
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,869administrator
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    and the freedom to not only not burn it, but be proud of all it represents. They can burn their own flag they bought or made, but not someone else’s or property of the government. That’s stealing and destruction of property. Also just burning anything anywhere is illegal. They’re not free to do that. If they want to do so in their fireplace at home or in a permitted area, fine. Go buy a flag from the store and take it home for firestarter. But to do so in the public square? Negative. Not free to do so. Heck, people celebrating true freedom can’t even light a small firework in most places. 

    Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice, for which we all must be thankful. The fascists calling themselves anti-fascists are defined by much more than just burning a flag. They are domestic terrorists have no respect for the freedoms of others. It’s their way or else. They riot, yet violently shut down the freedom of speech and freedom of protest of others. Our soldiers, present and past, have vowed to fight against both foreign and domestic enemies. Let’s not pretend our brave men and women had these spoiled punks on their minds when they were facing eternity. Certainly they have freedom to be disrespectful. That doesn’t make it good. But some of the things they do, such as destruction of property, harassment, and assault, are not covered under freedom - that’s infringing on the freedom of others. You go to jail for that. 

    Just like with Russia. We have a regime dining Apple for simply allowing freedom of the press. Yet here in the USA we have suppression of free speech and press as well with the government colluding with social media to suppress news and censor those who  say something they don’t like. As Americans we need to keep our eyes and ears open and stop tolerating those who strip our freedoms away not by wit with new excuse after new excuse. “Oh no! There’s a disease. Lock everyone up and shut down their businesses. Oh no! Some violent criminal used weapons! Take away everyone’s right to bear arms. Oh no! We are getting caught lying about various things! Take away people right to free speech and calling out our lies. Enough is enough. Whether you read, watch, post, etc on apple products, with speech, the newspaper, android, whatever, it’s time we stopped just accepting the spoon fed drivel and speak up where we can. That includes the freedom to show up and vote our conscience. 


    While I disagree with almost all of what you say, I have to take particular exception with this statement: "Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice."

    Did they not fight and die for freedom? For our constitution and all the freedoms it guarantees, including the freedom of speech? Then how can it possibly, "disrespect their great sacrifice," when Americans exercise those very freedoms in whatever form that takes? Do we not actually honor them when we engage in freedom of speech, particularly when that speech is not popular? I say we do. Not a single American died to defend the flag, they died defending what the flag stands for, and it cheapens their sacrifice to say otherwise.

    The flag itself is just a piece of cloth of no significant value. However, what the flag symbolizes is of the greatest value. People objecting to flag burning as a form of protest, of protected speech, either don't understand what free speech is, or don't actually believe in it. Burning a flag as a form of protest because you think your country is on the wrong path is one of the most powerful statements you can make. It should not be done casually, but we should celebrate that they have the freedom to do it. When we loose the freedom to burn the flag, we will have lost the very thing those soldiers died to defend. 
    Speaking for myself and most likely Wes too, we wrote that check up to and including the loss of our lives, and served to defend the right for folks to burn that flag. When it's burned, it doesn't disrespect me, or the family members of mine that served and died to defend what it stands for.
    ilarynxanonymousewilliamlondonbageljoeyFileMakerFellerwatto_cobraqwerty52
  • Reply 14 of 17
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    and the freedom to not only not burn it, but be proud of all it represents. They can burn their own flag they bought or made, but not someone else’s or property of the government. That’s stealing and destruction of property. Also just burning anything anywhere is illegal. They’re not free to do that. If they want to do so in their fireplace at home or in a permitted area, fine. Go buy a flag from the store and take it home for firestarter. But to do so in the public square? Negative. Not free to do so. Heck, people celebrating true freedom can’t even light a small firework in most places. 

    Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice, for which we all must be thankful. The fascists calling themselves anti-fascists are defined by much more than just burning a flag. They are domestic terrorists have no respect for the freedoms of others. It’s their way or else. They riot, yet violently shut down the freedom of speech and freedom of protest of others. Our soldiers, present and past, have vowed to fight against both foreign and domestic enemies. Let’s not pretend our brave men and women had these spoiled punks on their minds when they were facing eternity. Certainly they have freedom to be disrespectful. That doesn’t make it good. But some of the things they do, such as destruction of property, harassment, and assault, are not covered under freedom - that’s infringing on the freedom of others. You go to jail for that. 

    Just like with Russia. We have a regime dining Apple for simply allowing freedom of the press. Yet here in the USA we have suppression of free speech and press as well with the government colluding with social media to suppress news and censor those who  say something they don’t like. As Americans we need to keep our eyes and ears open and stop tolerating those who strip our freedoms away not by wit with new excuse after new excuse. “Oh no! There’s a disease. Lock everyone up and shut down their businesses. Oh no! Some violent criminal used weapons! Take away everyone’s right to bear arms. Oh no! We are getting caught lying about various things! Take away people right to free speech and calling out our lies. Enough is enough. Whether you read, watch, post, etc on apple products, with speech, the newspaper, android, whatever, it’s time we stopped just accepting the spoon fed drivel and speak up where we can. That includes the freedom to show up and vote our conscience. 


    While I disagree with almost all of what you say, I have to take particular exception with this statement: "Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice."

    Did they not fight and die for freedom? For our constitution and all the freedoms it guarantees, including the freedom of speech? Then how can it possibly, "disrespect their great sacrifice," when Americans exercise those very freedoms in whatever form that takes? Do we not actually honor them when we engage in freedom of speech, particularly when that speech is not popular? I say we do. Not a single American died to defend the flag, they died defending what the flag stands for, and it cheapens their sacrifice to say otherwise.

    The flag itself is just a piece of cloth of no significant value. However, what the flag symbolizes is of the greatest value. People objecting to flag burning as a form of protest, of protected speech, either don't understand what free speech is, or don't actually believe in it. Burning a flag as a form of protest because you think your country is on the wrong path is one of the most powerful statements you can make. It should not be done casually, but we should celebrate that they have the freedom to do it. When we loose the freedom to burn the flag, we will have lost the very thing those soldiers died to defend. 


    Exactly right. Case in point is the statement from a Vietnam POW below:


    In March of 1973, when we were released from a prisoner-of-war camp in North Vietnam, we were flown to Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines. As I stepped out of the aircraft I looked up and saw the flag. I caught my breath, then, as tears filled my eyes, I saluted it. I never loved my country more than at that moment. Although I have received the Silver Star Medal and two Purple Hearts, they were nothing compared with the gratitude I felt then for having been allowed to serve the cause of freedom.

    Because the mere sight of the flag meant so much to me when I saw it for the first time after 5 1/2 years, it hurts me to see other Americans willfully desecrate it. But I have been in a communist prison where I looked into the pit of hell. I cannot compromise on freedom. It hurts to see the flag burned, but I part company with those who want to punish the flag burners. Let me explain myself.

    Early in the imprisonment the communists told us that we did not have to stay there. If we would only admit we were wrong, if we would only apologize, we could be released early…

    Because we would not say the words they wanted us to say, they made our lives wretched. Most of us were tortured, and some of my comrades died. I was tortured for most of the summer of 1969. I developed beriberi from malnutrition. I had long bouts of dysentery. I was infested with intestinal parasites. I spent 13 months in solitary confinement. Was our cause worth all of this? Yes, it was worth all this and more.

    Rose Wilder Lane, in her magnificent book, The Discovery of Freedom, said there are two fundamental truths that men must know in order to be free. They must know that all men are brothers, and they must know that all men are born free. Once men accept these two ideas, they will never accept bondage. The power of these ideas explains why it was illegal to teach slaves to read…

    They tried to “re-educate” us. If we could show them that we would not abandon our belief in fundamental principles, then we could prove the falseness of their doctrine. We could subvert them by teaching them about freedom through our example. We could show them the power of ideas.

    I did not appreciate this power before I was a prisoner of war. I remember one interrogation where I was shown a photograph of some Americans protesting the war by burning a flag. “There,” the officer said. “People in your country protest against your cause. That proves that you are wrong.”

    “No,” I said. “That proves that I am right. In my country we are not afraid of freedom, even if it means that people disagree with us.” The officer was on his feet in an instant, his face purple with rage. He smashed his fist onto the table and screamed at me to shut up. While he was ranting I was astonished to see pain, compounded by fear, in his eyes. I have never forgotten that look, nor have I forgotten the satisfaction I felt at using his tool, the picture of the burning flag, against him.

    Aneurin Bevan, former official of the British Labor Party, was once asked by Nikita Khrushchev how the British definition of democracy differed from the Soviet view. Bevan responded, forcefully, that if Khrushchev really wanted to know the difference, he should read the funeral oration of Pericles.

    In that speech, recorded in the Second Book of Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War, Pericles contrasted democratic Athens with totalitarian Sparta. Unlike the Spartans, he said, the Athenians did not fear freedom. Rather, they viewed freedom as the very source of their strength. As it was for Athens, so it is for America — our freedom is not to be feared, for our freedom is our strength.

     - James H. Warner, Captain O-3,  U.S. Marine Corps

    https://www.sun-sentinel.com/1989/07/16/flag-burning-doesnt-bother-former-pow/

    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CREC-2006-06-26/html/CREC-2006-06-26-pt1-PgS6471-2.htm


    Those who get their panties in a bunch over such things are just showing what snowflakes they are. They typically have never read the Constitution, but can sing along with Lee Greenwood’s insipid spiel ad nauseam. 

    anonymousewilliamlondontmaybageljoeyFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 15 of 17
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    iBiC said:
    igorsky said:
    I don’t know why Apple is still in Russia but I bet there’s a lot of Russian citizens who don’t agree with Russian politics

    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 


    Russians love their own country - they don't burn their own flag like Antifa.  They took over east Ukraine (Cremea) without a bullet being shot in 24 hours.  It was military genius.  NATO were embarrassed. Russia doesn't even call it Ukraine, it's Russia, and have changed street names, schools, and that was back in 2014.  Don't poke the bear.  Russia coded the first video game called Tetris.  Well now Russia is the official bread basket of Europe.  France and Germany are very silent.  Check out wheat prices in Europe.
    While I understand that you don't like anti-fascists, I would point out that the right to burn the flag in protest is one of the things that makes the US a great country. The flag after all is only a symbol, not a sacred object, and the US flag is a symbol of freedom. And one of those freedoms is the freedom to burn the flag as an act of unrestricted speech. Thousands of US soldiers have died, millions have fought, for the freedom to burn our own flag.
    and the freedom to not only not burn it, but be proud of all it represents. They can burn their own flag they bought or made, but not someone else’s or property of the government. That’s stealing and destruction of property. Also just burning anything anywhere is illegal. They’re not free to do that. If they want to do so in their fireplace at home or in a permitted area, fine. Go buy a flag from the store and take it home for firestarter. But to do so in the public square? Negative. Not free to do so. Heck, people celebrating true freedom can’t even light a small firework in most places. 

    Those who burn the USA flag burn the banner under which our soldiers died and disrespect their great sacrifice, for which we all must be thankful. The fascists calling themselves anti-fascists are defined by much more than just burning a flag. They are domestic terrorists have no respect for the freedoms of others. It’s their way or else. They riot, yet violently shut down the freedom of speech and freedom of protest of others. Our soldiers, present and past, have vowed to fight against both foreign and domestic enemies. Let’s not pretend our brave men and women had these spoiled punks on their minds when they were facing eternity. Certainly they have freedom to be disrespectful. That doesn’t make it good. But some of the things they do, such as destruction of property, harassment, and assault, are not covered under freedom - that’s infringing on the freedom of others. You go to jail for that. 

    Just like with Russia. We have a regime dining Apple for simply allowing freedom of the press. Yet here in the USA we have suppression of free speech and press as well with the government colluding with social media to suppress news and censor those who  say something they don’t like. As Americans we need to keep our eyes and ears open and stop tolerating those who strip our freedoms away not by wit with new excuse after new excuse. “Oh no! There’s a disease. Lock everyone up and shut down their businesses. Oh no! Some violent criminal used weapons! Take away everyone’s right to bear arms. Oh no! We are getting caught lying about various things! Take away people right to free speech and calling out our lies. Enough is enough. Whether you read, watch, post, etc on apple products, with speech, the newspaper, android, whatever, it’s time we stopped just accepting the spoon fed drivel and speak up where we can. That includes the freedom to show up and vote our conscience. 


    Also just burning anything anywhere is illegal.” Just one of several bizarre, uninformed and Mal-informed statements. 

    Also, a lot of unsubstantiated broad-brush whines. WHO is “suppressing free speech and press” and HOW? The subsequent Wehrmacht inspired word-salad rant sounds like someone finished their weekend allotment of meth before the weekend even arrived. 

    As for the pro-Putin claims of Russia's "bread basket", the numbers aren't so bad after the initial panic: 

    https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/wheat-price/euro


    One last word on the claimed "Russia bread basket": Holomodor. 

    https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/#:~:text=The%20term%20Holodomor%20(death%20by,peasantry%2C%20who%20resisted%20Soviet%20policies.

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/mr-jones-film-exposes-the-fake-news-campaign-behind-stalins-ukrainian-genocide/



    9secondkox2williamlondon
  • Reply 16 of 17
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,349member
    You would lose that bet.  There is ample evidence online that Russians by and large gleefully support Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, just as they’ve supported Russia’s past military actions. 
    I think it's just like any other wars, whether it's the Nazi from WWII or the Vietnam War from the U.S. side, majority of people just followed the leader blindly and killed civilians without remorse. Human, I can't believe we made it this far without extinction.
    Yes, treat every day like a miraculous gift because given human history it really is. 
    williamlondonravnorodomFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 17 of 17
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,004member
    Did Apple even show up?  If they didn’t show up the judge could have found against them without looking at evidence or arguments.  

    and for the claim it wasn’t a “Kangaroo Court” but a real legal “formal institution “:  most kangaroo Courts are formal institutions in their countries.  Does not make them any less a kangaroo court.  Countries that don’t respect the rule of law have kangaroo court systems by definition.  
    williamlondon
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