All they need to do is make the performance/price ratio constant, or slightly, and I mean slight, increasing with increasing performance if they want more margin.
\tI think you're missing a few points that many professionals are trying to get aired.
What Professionals? The only people I see complaining are consumer who want to leverage the whopping $99 they paid for that Maxtor 60GB HD before rebate. The Pros have and will continue to use Network storage and Firewire Drives. Go to any Audio or Video enthusiast board and you will see this.
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The value in a tower design comes from future expansion potential. That may be SATA or PATA it really doesn't matter. Also at the point where you do expand the machine noise and other issues are really the expanders resposibility.
You just walked into the same trap that Matsu did. There are no limitations to expansion. You can have more storage connected to your Powermac. The only limitation is Internal Storage and most Pros don't sweat that because they have access to large external drives or Network storage.
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No it is not a question of using legacy drives, its a question of being able to add to your current storage capacity in a reasonable manner. This may be a week or a year after you buy the hardware. In any event the highest performance solutions are internal as opposed to network attached.
Ummmmm no the highest performing drives are external linked via Fibrechannel or SCSI 320. What's reasonable to you will vary from what's reasonable to a Pro. If you bill at $100 per hour do you really care about the price of a large HD. Do you really want to muck with the Internal or do you just slap another FW Drive on the bus and start recording. Time is money...always has been.
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Apples approach was more than "bone headed" it demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of their users needs. It not a matter of providing storage its a matter of provide growth potential which is a whole differrent issue. Not to mention is the issue with an externally accesible device.
No you show a complete "misunderstanding" of Workstation users. Again the Pros have different needs for Storage and even the rank and file Corporate Networks in many cases backs up only Server Volumes. Growth potential is better to Network storage. There's a reason why SAN and NAS have taken off and it's not because fewer Drive Bays in computers.
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Apple isn't limniting us because we are not willing to blindly fall into technolgy traps such as firewire or external devices of any sort. It must be considered a marketing triumph by someone to see that they have convinced people that firewire is an acceptable interface for system drives. Those that are trying to maintain economical solutions to their computing needs see firewire in a differrent light.
Apple is limiting you because they value Reliability as paramount over Internal Drive bays. What? You don't think the PS replacement Apple did for the MDD machines was expensive? We are moving beyond G4s which worked for the Desktop and Embedded space to the 970s which are strictly Desktop. Intel's Prescott, even at 90nm, will Dissipate almost 100 watts! If Apple doesn't design the G5 case right from the get go then it limits their options for Processors later. FW drives are used by DAW users and Final Cut Pro users just fine. Internal Storage is nice but it's nowhere near as portable as External and Portability is important to many Content Creators.
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I think the mumbo jumbo is contained below. One must realize that pros come in many forms. Some are individuals that simply can not justify a NAS system. There is also the question of getting good value for you money. Expandable and upgradeable machines can often represent good value. Finally some of the expansion device people are interested in don't work well when attached to a server at the other end of the hall way.
No one said you have to get a NAS. I think todays Half Terabyte capability is just fine. Few years from now it'll be over a Terabyte and platter areal density doubles. Pros consider value but much differently than a consumer. Pros have tax breaks based on the depreciation of their equipment. Why would they want to keep something like a legacy drive? Keeping an old computer is one thing because it runs your apps they way you want but the peripherals like Monitors Drives etc that can easily be swapped get replaced.
Guh haw, blame Hmurchinson for ruining the thread, not me, he started it! Neener neener neener.
If you could just accept my wisdom, we could all get along better. One of these days I'm gonna run for president of the USA, HA!
OK, on to business.
You see, I started not so pessimistically, I think Apple will update the internals slightly within a revision or two so that 4 HDD's fit in the case, ther room is there, it just needs to be managed a bit better. They should have done it from the outset, but no matter, they WILL adress this issue.
Also, I think a DP middle tier is entirely plausible, and even a DP low end (with less RAM capacity and slower memory and PCI buses.
I think it may be better for Apple to, get ready, you're gonna shit yourselves in a sec, NOT lower prices on the pro towers, 1999-2999, evenly spread, is not a bad range if they pump up the specs a bit, MORE standard RAM, duals, and beefier video cards.
Then, in the place of the PMG4, slot in a Cube G5 (1299 and 1599) with cube-ish expansion, slightly modified for easier access and internal PS, One optical, one HDD, clearance for a standard 7" AGP slot, CPU daughtercard, and pro level I/O.
The you get a nice spread of headless machines:
Cube G5 1299-1599, both singles
PM G5 1999-2499-2999, single, Dual, Dual.
iMacs have to get under 1399 for the top config, a little overlap wouldn't be a problem. People can choose headless flexibility or AIO simplicity. Put the options out ther and let the market decide. It has worked wonders for the laptop line, and it's the best way to go on desktops aswell.
[B]I think the mumbo jumbo is contained below. One must realize that pros come in many forms. Some are individuals that simply can not justify a NAS system. There is also the question of getting good value for you money. Expandable and upgradeable machines can often represent good value. Finally some of the expansion device people are interested in don't work well when attached to a server at the other end of the hall way.
But "Pros" can find better, and frankly safer, storage solutions than having four internal drives without going fiber. What happens when your power supply dies and your 800 gigs of internal drives are stuck in a dead tower? External firewire storgage lets you connect to any machine when yours is down. That is incredibly important when you must make your deadline.
A pro in any form must be resourceful.
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That is until the G5 arrived. These machines have so much going for them that it is truely amazing. But I do have to look at them with a critical eye and wonder how they will handle future needs. Throwing all future expansion into a external box is ugly and unreliable.
I think that Apple has had to make comprimises with this machine and looking at trends they realized that this machine meets the needs of the majority of pro users. There are also people pissed about the lack of PCI slots, but alot of devices that used to be PCI cards (like sound cards, video I/Os) are all going to new technologies like firewire as the protocol of choice.
I think Apple sees a bit farther in to the future than a lot of us and hopefully they have desigined a machine that is prepared for the future.
What Professionals? The only people I see complaining are consumer who want to leverage the whopping $99 they paid for that Maxtor 60GB HD before rebate. The Pros have and will continue to use Network storage and Firewire Drives. Go to any Audio or Video enthusiast board and you will see this.
That statement is highly debatable. It is very easy to argue that pros are left with few choices in the Apple world other than external devices.
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You just walked into the same trap that Matsu did. There are no limitations to expansion. You can have more storage connected to your Powermac. The only limitation is Internal Storage and most Pros don't sweat that because they have access to large external drives or Network storage.
You call it a trap then fall into it yourself. Many pros do not have access to the large external drives or the network storage you are talking about. Furhter some pros do not need to be carrying around all that extra hardware.
If you have to implement external storage devices that is prime evidence that you are limited in your expansion capabilities. A server is not expansion it is another machine.
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Ummmmm no the highest performing drives are external linked via Fibrechannel or SCSI 320. What's reasonable to you will vary from what's reasonable to a Pro. If you bill at $100 per hour do you really care about the price of a large HD. Do you really want to muck with the Internal or do you just slap another FW Drive on the bus and start recording. Time is money...always has been.
Err what is fiber channel other than a way to network disk storage, it certinaly isn't internal storage. Scsi is nice even if its market share continues to errode, but there is no place to put those drive internal in your G5. The whole point of my statements, are that there are real needs in the market for internal storage. to sit back and justify Apples engineering by denying these needs is no way to win an arguement.
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No you show a complete "misunderstanding" of Workstation users. Again the Pros have different needs for Storage and even the rank and file Corporate Networks in many cases backs up only Server Volumes. Growth potential is better to Network storage. There's a reason why SAN and NAS have taken off and it's not because fewer Drive Bays in computers.
Well yeah that is fine in a corporate environment but not everyone has that luxury. There are a number of reasons why SAN's and NAS's have taken off and I also agree that it has nothing to do with a machines supplied drive bays. None of those reasons are justification for the lack of internal espansion.
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Apple is limiting you because they value Reliability as paramount over Internal Drive bays. What? You don't think the PS replacement Apple did for the MDD machines was expensive? We are moving beyond G4s which worked for the Desktop and Embedded space to the 970s which are strictly Desktop. Intel's Prescott, even at 90nm, will Dissipate almost 100 watts! If Apple doesn't design the G5 case right from the get go then it limits their options for Processors later. FW drives are used by DAW users and Final Cut Pro users just fine. Internal Storage is nice but it's nowhere near as portable as External and Portability is important to many Content Creators.
No one said you have to get a NAS. I think todays Half Terabyte capability is just fine. Few years from now it'll be over a Terabyte and platter areal density doubles. Pros consider value but much differently than a consumer. Pros have tax breaks based on the depreciation of their equipment. Why would they want to keep something like a legacy drive? Keeping an old computer is one thing because it runs your apps they way you want but the peripherals like Monitors Drives etc that can easily be swapped get replaced.
You do seem to mis the point, so I geuss it really doesn't pay to argue. There really is no differrence between replacing an intrenal drive as opposed to an external. One does have to wonder why anybody would spend bandwidth and port allocations on storage that can be handled on ports specific to storage. I fully understand network storage and the need to be secure in that storage. Secure as network storage is you do not want to be shoving critical data over a network shared by others as it is being produced. That is a risky, I'm not sure pros would or should be doing that. To a dedicated storage device maybe but certianly not a networked drive.
Cent 1: I can see Apple shipping dual 1.8 machines because it means that Apple will make some serious $. Having lots of machines on back order for a long time doesn't make good sense. Apple needs to actually get these machines into the hands of users in order to make money. Yes, their profit margins will be lower, but they will be able to actually get machines out to people and their overall profit will be much better. Dual 1.8's at the specified price are a pretty good deal. Ok, so the single 1.6 machine isn't such a great deal anymore, but it wasn't a high seller anyway, so no big deal.
Cent 2: I think that the whole situation is Apple's fault. They should have realized that the performance gap between the mid range G5 and the high end G5 was simply too great and that the price difference was too small given the performance difference. When they decided what would make up their lineup, they really messed up with the middle machine. It should have been dual 1.8 G5's from the beginning and the single 1.6 should have been about $100 cheaper.
Overall, high demand for Apple's premiere desktop setup is not a bad thing. In the worst case scenario, Apple just spends two months filling back orders. It certainly would not be the first product launch that had such problems (anyone else remember when the 604's frist came out? I got mine on the first day, but that was only because I worked at the store!). I think it depends on how bad the backorders for the dual 2GHz machines are, and how badly Apple wants to make some money in the short term.
As a side note, since 2GHz G5's are high end chips, such high demand for them will mean that IBM's fab will be making lots of G5's. High demand for the top of the line CPU is a great thing for IBM because the high end chips are the hardest to make in bulk. IBM will be busy!
I'll chime in here on the drive issue. I work professionally in the video editing/multimedia area and though I'm not as fond of network storage I can definitely state that externals are better on one important count.
If you are on a serious deadline with a project and an internal HD fails changing it is a much more time consuming venture even with the case designs that Apple use. Since the introduction of Firewire 800, external raid options are a much better solution. My personal preference is to have an internal system disk, an internal applications and general files disk and then external project disks (currently a large striped array).
I uderstand others issues with desk clutter, cable tangles and so forth but this just isn't as much of an issue, at least in my workplace experience.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
A good HS buddy of mine went into photography. He tried the artsy stuff, galleries, some journo stuff, but you scratch along. Successful in terms of critical acclaim? A little, but still didn't make a ton of money. A couple of years ago he threw his hat into wedding photography. He shoots with film and then scans into a Mac and adjusts the photos for printing. Prints just about everything from a scan and not the actual negative or slide. He's doing alright, there isn't a week-end when he doesn't work. I dunno what wedding pics cost in your area, but around here the big day is gonna cost you 2-6K in photos, so I'd say he's doing alright. Bastard! haha, if you can't schadenfreude your friends...
Anyway, he works together with a videographer on the weddings. They use IDE raids in their powermacs, and have gigabit network setup between their machines. It's very convenient for them. When you walk into their place, you see three PM's and a bunch of monitors, a film scanner, an older Analogue NLE setup, etc etc... and other assorted stuff, but no "Network" storage. The network is the old machine. The DV tapes are their own back-up, and they have the slides, and he burns DVD-RAM's to back-up his photo projects.
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines, uses PB G4's, and will NOT buy G5's unless he can drop his IDE RAID setup into it.
Pro doesn't just mean the guys at Pixar or the local TV station. I'll bet there are more pros like him than there are working at big studios or TV stations.
Everybody seems to be missing the obvious. The extremely large number of dual 2 gig preorders reported indicates that model is significantly underpriced. The logical thing to do is to increase the price of the dual 2 gig and then introduce a dual 1.8 gig at the original price of the 2 gig. The single 1.6 gig should probably be discountinued right away in order to avoid another cube-like embarrasment.
Cent 2: I think that the whole situation is Apple's fault. They should have realized that the performance gap between the mid range G5 and the high end G5 was simply too great and that the price difference was too small given the performance difference.
. . .
I agree. Now a typical Apple solution would be to just cancel all Dual 2 GHz orders, and re-offer them @ $3499. This would be simpler than lowering the price of the 2 weaker models!
For example...the Powermac Dual 2.0's cooling system was designed specifically for the Dual 2.0, and the powermac 1.8's system for the 1.8. Changing the already-butild models wouldn't be worth the struggle, unless some patch could be released before shipping.
stupid question, but wouldn't you assume that, if the 2.0 GHz chip puts out more heat than a 1.8, and all other things being equal, the dual 2.0 GHz case would be more than sufficient to cool the 1.8's without any modifications???
Do be people actually believe that specifically tuned bullshiat? I guarantee you the only "specific" part of this so called design is that the CPU fans come on a little sooner and stay on a little longer in the faster, and thus hotter, machines.
Everybody seems to be missing the obvious. The extremely large number of dual 2 gig preorders reported indicates that model is significantly underpriced. The logical thing to do is to increase the price of the dual 2 gig and then introduce a dual 1.8 gig at the original price of the 2 gig. The single 1.6 gig should probably be discountinued right away in order to avoid another cube-like embarrasment.
What? Raise the price of the 2 Gig? I think it's much more a problem of the other configs not being worth what they're asking for them.
What? Raise the price of the 2 Gig? I think it's much more a problem of the other configs not being worth what they're asking for them.
exactly, AND i am surprised that no one has remarked on this yet, but this is not the first time that apple has become a victim of it's OWN marketing. remember how the G4 was constantly hammered as the only processor you would really want? well, any consumer who saw the ads wouldn't buy a G3 model unless it was way cheaper, or its industrial design was significantly advantageous (see iBook).
in this case, apple has hammered home the duals-are-better philosophy so much that it doesn't matter how much better a single G5 with improved IO system, etc is than the previous model, people want the dual.
plus, if you're like me, you've been getting by with a 400-500 MHz G4 for as long as you can stand, and have been saving your money for at least a few years. you'll be damned if you're gonna blow that cash reserve on anything but top-of-the-line, unless, of course, you can't afford it.
so the single models are just for those who need to save cash. EXCEPT if you fall in that boat, then you should be looking into one of the last year's models, where you can save a TON of money nowadays (especially since the G5 intro). as much as it pains me, i am seriously giving a dual 1.42 a serious look. anyone know dealers who still have the dual 1.42 in stock???
What? Raise the price of the 2 Gig? I think it's much more a problem of the other configs not being worth what they're asking for them.
The price increase should only affect those who haven't preordered the 2 gig machine, of course. The latecomers deserve a little punishment for not being willing to take the risk of ordering a machine before it can be seen and reviewed.
The interesting thing is that for this to be true, "going dual" on a 1.8Ghz 970 has to cost Apple less than $150.
What about dual _1.6's_ for $2549? Then you have two options for the middle-of-the-road speed area. People who like SMP get SMP. People who want a single somewhat faster CPU get it. And Apple gets rid of excess 1.6 chips.
On another point entirely is this whole internal expansion business. Has anyone actually _looked_ at the very large TIFF of the innards? There's a lot of teensy pictures around, but somewhere off the G5 page at Apple is a very large side view image.
Which shows that 1) the two HDs take up a _very_ small piece of the upper bay. 2) The optical "drive bay" is a huge full sized bay... that's got space above and below it. Then there's a little space for the main HD fan of course.
Getting from one optical to two opticals _looks_ trivial. Use laptop parts instead of desktop parts. There's even units available that are two optical drives _attached_ that can fit (comfortably) into that bay.
If you're looking for more hard drives, it still seems like plenty of space - if you're willing to remount a smaller optical bay in there. The only question then is where to get all the connections. Luckily the PCI bay is the next one down, pick your poison. A fan upgrade is probably in order too.
In any case, all the yakking about internal storage is nuts. I'm not a pro by any stretch, but let's see:
CD, CDRW, Printer, Harddrive, DataAcquisitionWidget(SCSI-to-GPIB), Scanner, OldNearDefunctComputer, all off SCSI. (You have to hack the computer to keep it from turning on _its_ SCSI controller and frying things)
Camcorder, near defunct laptop in target-disk-mode, harddrive, , NTSC-to-FW adaptor(for old videocam), DVD off firewire.
Hub, other hub, Digicam, Bluetooth adaptor(Rocks!), inkjet, tablet, trackball, BasicSTAMP, other USB-to-Serial adapter, USB-to-assorted-memorycard-adaptor, fan, light (sorry, they were too geeky, needed one.) Oh, wait. And a piano. I'll skip the ethernet-only-non-comptuer items, ethernet isn't an 'expansion bus', get real. Does a bluetooth phone count here? I can use it as a remote control for the computer?
If I got a new computer do I _care_ if I need to add something external? Um, no? There's no sane way to do all of that stuff internally -> I'll always have _something_ external -> who cares if I have to add one more widget.
There's a lot of different types of "pro". A whole slew of them have a whole pile of external widgets already -> don't care. (Or, at least, can deal with it.) Another pile of them are working _somewhere_ -> they need their box + network.
And apparently there's a third set of Pros that obsess (really, really obsess) over price + still feel they'll swamp the computer by overloading the internal storage. For a very low price. Somehow.
Oh, and here, here , or maybe here would be some non-existant drive bays for the non-pros from just one vendor.
Comments
Originally posted by THT
All duals baby:
DP 1.6 - $1999
DP 1.8 - $2499
DP 2.0 - $2999
All they need to do is make the performance/price ratio constant, or slightly, and I mean slight, increasing with increasing performance if they want more margin.
This is too easy. I'd have to buy one!
\tI think you're missing a few points that many professionals are trying to get aired.
What Professionals? The only people I see complaining are consumer who want to leverage the whopping $99 they paid for that Maxtor 60GB HD before rebate. The Pros have and will continue to use Network storage and Firewire Drives. Go to any Audio or Video enthusiast board and you will see this.
The value in a tower design comes from future expansion potential. That may be SATA or PATA it really doesn't matter. Also at the point where you do expand the machine noise and other issues are really the expanders resposibility.
You just walked into the same trap that Matsu did. There are no limitations to expansion. You can have more storage connected to your Powermac. The only limitation is Internal Storage and most Pros don't sweat that because they have access to large external drives or Network storage.
No it is not a question of using legacy drives, its a question of being able to add to your current storage capacity in a reasonable manner. This may be a week or a year after you buy the hardware. In any event the highest performance solutions are internal as opposed to network attached.
Ummmmm no the highest performing drives are external linked via Fibrechannel or SCSI 320. What's reasonable to you will vary from what's reasonable to a Pro. If you bill at $100 per hour do you really care about the price of a large HD. Do you really want to muck with the Internal or do you just slap another FW Drive on the bus and start recording. Time is money...always has been.
Apples approach was more than "bone headed" it demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of their users needs. It not a matter of providing storage its a matter of provide growth potential which is a whole differrent issue. Not to mention is the issue with an externally accesible device.
No you show a complete "misunderstanding" of Workstation users. Again the Pros have different needs for Storage and even the rank and file Corporate Networks in many cases backs up only Server Volumes. Growth potential is better to Network storage. There's a reason why SAN and NAS have taken off and it's not because fewer Drive Bays in computers.
Apple isn't limniting us because we are not willing to blindly fall into technolgy traps such as firewire or external devices of any sort. It must be considered a marketing triumph by someone to see that they have convinced people that firewire is an acceptable interface for system drives. Those that are trying to maintain economical solutions to their computing needs see firewire in a differrent light.
Apple is limiting you because they value Reliability as paramount over Internal Drive bays. What? You don't think the PS replacement Apple did for the MDD machines was expensive? We are moving beyond G4s which worked for the Desktop and Embedded space to the 970s which are strictly Desktop. Intel's Prescott, even at 90nm, will Dissipate almost 100 watts! If Apple doesn't design the G5 case right from the get go then it limits their options for Processors later. FW drives are used by DAW users and Final Cut Pro users just fine. Internal Storage is nice but it's nowhere near as portable as External and Portability is important to many Content Creators.
I think the mumbo jumbo is contained below. One must realize that pros come in many forms. Some are individuals that simply can not justify a NAS system. There is also the question of getting good value for you money. Expandable and upgradeable machines can often represent good value. Finally some of the expansion device people are interested in don't work well when attached to a server at the other end of the hall way.
No one said you have to get a NAS. I think todays Half Terabyte capability is just fine. Few years from now it'll be over a Terabyte and platter areal density doubles. Pros consider value but much differently than a consumer. Pros have tax breaks based on the depreciation of their equipment. Why would they want to keep something like a legacy drive? Keeping an old computer is one thing because it runs your apps they way you want but the peripherals like Monitors Drives etc that can easily be swapped get replaced.
If you could just accept my wisdom, we could all get along better. One of these days I'm gonna run for president of the USA, HA!
OK, on to business.
You see, I started not so pessimistically, I think Apple will update the internals slightly within a revision or two so that 4 HDD's fit in the case, ther room is there, it just needs to be managed a bit better. They should have done it from the outset, but no matter, they WILL adress this issue.
Also, I think a DP middle tier is entirely plausible, and even a DP low end (with less RAM capacity and slower memory and PCI buses.
I think it may be better for Apple to, get ready, you're gonna shit yourselves in a sec, NOT lower prices on the pro towers, 1999-2999, evenly spread, is not a bad range if they pump up the specs a bit, MORE standard RAM, duals, and beefier video cards.
Then, in the place of the PMG4, slot in a Cube G5 (1299 and 1599) with cube-ish expansion, slightly modified for easier access and internal PS, One optical, one HDD, clearance for a standard 7" AGP slot, CPU daughtercard, and pro level I/O.
The you get a nice spread of headless machines:
Cube G5 1299-1599, both singles
PM G5 1999-2499-2999, single, Dual, Dual.
iMacs have to get under 1399 for the top config, a little overlap wouldn't be a problem. People can choose headless flexibility or AIO simplicity. Put the options out ther and let the market decide. It has worked wonders for the laptop line, and it's the best way to go on desktops aswell.
Originally posted by wizard69
[B]I think the mumbo jumbo is contained below. One must realize that pros come in many forms. Some are individuals that simply can not justify a NAS system. There is also the question of getting good value for you money. Expandable and upgradeable machines can often represent good value. Finally some of the expansion device people are interested in don't work well when attached to a server at the other end of the hall way.
But "Pros" can find better, and frankly safer, storage solutions than having four internal drives without going fiber. What happens when your power supply dies and your 800 gigs of internal drives are stuck in a dead tower? External firewire storgage lets you connect to any machine when yours is down. That is incredibly important when you must make your deadline.
A pro in any form must be resourceful.
That is until the G5 arrived. These machines have so much going for them that it is truely amazing. But I do have to look at them with a critical eye and wonder how they will handle future needs. Throwing all future expansion into a external box is ugly and unreliable.
I think that Apple has had to make comprimises with this machine and looking at trends they realized that this machine meets the needs of the majority of pro users. There are also people pissed about the lack of PCI slots, but alot of devices that used to be PCI cards (like sound cards, video I/Os) are all going to new technologies like firewire as the protocol of choice.
I think Apple sees a bit farther in to the future than a lot of us and hopefully they have desigined a machine that is prepared for the future.
It has a big headline of a PowerMac Dual 1.8 G5...
I have a snap shot.. anyone want to host it?
(leave your email here and I will email it to you)
BZ
http://www.dvshop.ca/apple/macg5.html
http://www.krcs.co.uk/krcsed_g5.html
Originally posted by dr. zoidberg
some links talking about dual 1.8. g5 from google:
http://www.dvshop.ca/apple/macg5.html
http://www.krcs.co.uk/krcsed_g5.html
I'm pretty sure that first one's a typo, since it plainly states 'single proc' in the specs above , and that second link is a 'Dual 1.8Ghz G4'.
Originally posted by hmurchison
What Professionals? The only people I see complaining are consumer who want to leverage the whopping $99 they paid for that Maxtor 60GB HD before rebate. The Pros have and will continue to use Network storage and Firewire Drives. Go to any Audio or Video enthusiast board and you will see this.
That statement is highly debatable. It is very easy to argue that pros are left with few choices in the Apple world other than external devices.
Quote:
You just walked into the same trap that Matsu did. There are no limitations to expansion. You can have more storage connected to your Powermac. The only limitation is Internal Storage and most Pros don't sweat that because they have access to large external drives or Network storage.
You call it a trap then fall into it yourself. Many pros do not have access to the large external drives or the network storage you are talking about. Furhter some pros do not need to be carrying around all that extra hardware.
If you have to implement external storage devices that is prime evidence that you are limited in your expansion capabilities. A server is not expansion it is another machine.
Quote:
Ummmmm no the highest performing drives are external linked via Fibrechannel or SCSI 320. What's reasonable to you will vary from what's reasonable to a Pro. If you bill at $100 per hour do you really care about the price of a large HD. Do you really want to muck with the Internal or do you just slap another FW Drive on the bus and start recording. Time is money...always has been.
Err what is fiber channel other than a way to network disk storage, it certinaly isn't internal storage. Scsi is nice even if its market share continues to errode, but there is no place to put those drive internal in your G5. The whole point of my statements, are that there are real needs in the market for internal storage. to sit back and justify Apples engineering by denying these needs is no way to win an arguement.
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No you show a complete "misunderstanding" of Workstation users. Again the Pros have different needs for Storage and even the rank and file Corporate Networks in many cases backs up only Server Volumes. Growth potential is better to Network storage. There's a reason why SAN and NAS have taken off and it's not because fewer Drive Bays in computers.
Well yeah that is fine in a corporate environment but not everyone has that luxury. There are a number of reasons why SAN's and NAS's have taken off and I also agree that it has nothing to do with a machines supplied drive bays. None of those reasons are justification for the lack of internal espansion.
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Apple is limiting you because they value Reliability as paramount over Internal Drive bays. What? You don't think the PS replacement Apple did for the MDD machines was expensive? We are moving beyond G4s which worked for the Desktop and Embedded space to the 970s which are strictly Desktop. Intel's Prescott, even at 90nm, will Dissipate almost 100 watts! If Apple doesn't design the G5 case right from the get go then it limits their options for Processors later. FW drives are used by DAW users and Final Cut Pro users just fine. Internal Storage is nice but it's nowhere near as portable as External and Portability is important to many Content Creators.
No one said you have to get a NAS. I think todays Half Terabyte capability is just fine. Few years from now it'll be over a Terabyte and platter areal density doubles. Pros consider value but much differently than a consumer. Pros have tax breaks based on the depreciation of their equipment. Why would they want to keep something like a legacy drive? Keeping an old computer is one thing because it runs your apps they way you want but the peripherals like Monitors Drives etc that can easily be swapped get replaced.
You do seem to mis the point, so I geuss it really doesn't pay to argue. There really is no differrence between replacing an intrenal drive as opposed to an external. One does have to wonder why anybody would spend bandwidth and port allocations on storage that can be handled on ports specific to storage. I fully understand network storage and the need to be secure in that storage. Secure as network storage is you do not want to be shoving critical data over a network shared by others as it is being produced. That is a risky, I'm not sure pros would or should be doing that. To a dedicated storage device maybe but certianly not a networked drive.
Dave
Cent 1: I can see Apple shipping dual 1.8 machines because it means that Apple will make some serious $. Having lots of machines on back order for a long time doesn't make good sense. Apple needs to actually get these machines into the hands of users in order to make money. Yes, their profit margins will be lower, but they will be able to actually get machines out to people and their overall profit will be much better. Dual 1.8's at the specified price are a pretty good deal. Ok, so the single 1.6 machine isn't such a great deal anymore, but it wasn't a high seller anyway, so no big deal.
Cent 2: I think that the whole situation is Apple's fault. They should have realized that the performance gap between the mid range G5 and the high end G5 was simply too great and that the price difference was too small given the performance difference. When they decided what would make up their lineup, they really messed up with the middle machine. It should have been dual 1.8 G5's from the beginning and the single 1.6 should have been about $100 cheaper.
Overall, high demand for Apple's premiere desktop setup is not a bad thing. In the worst case scenario, Apple just spends two months filling back orders. It certainly would not be the first product launch that had such problems (anyone else remember when the 604's frist came out? I got mine on the first day, but that was only because I worked at the store!). I think it depends on how bad the backorders for the dual 2GHz machines are, and how badly Apple wants to make some money in the short term.
As a side note, since 2GHz G5's are high end chips, such high demand for them will mean that IBM's fab will be making lots of G5's. High demand for the top of the line CPU is a great thing for IBM because the high end chips are the hardest to make in bulk. IBM will be busy!
If you are on a serious deadline with a project and an internal HD fails changing it is a much more time consuming venture even with the case designs that Apple use. Since the introduction of Firewire 800, external raid options are a much better solution. My personal preference is to have an internal system disk, an internal applications and general files disk and then external project disks (currently a large striped array).
I uderstand others issues with desk clutter, cable tangles and so forth but this just isn't as much of an issue, at least in my workplace experience.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
A good HS buddy of mine went into photography. He tried the artsy stuff, galleries, some journo stuff, but you scratch along. Successful in terms of critical acclaim? A little, but still didn't make a ton of money. A couple of years ago he threw his hat into wedding photography. He shoots with film and then scans into a Mac and adjusts the photos for printing. Prints just about everything from a scan and not the actual negative or slide. He's doing alright, there isn't a week-end when he doesn't work. I dunno what wedding pics cost in your area, but around here the big day is gonna cost you 2-6K in photos, so I'd say he's doing alright. Bastard! haha, if you can't schadenfreude your friends...
Anyway, he works together with a videographer on the weddings. They use IDE raids in their powermacs, and have gigabit network setup between their machines. It's very convenient for them. When you walk into their place, you see three PM's and a bunch of monitors, a film scanner, an older Analogue NLE setup, etc etc... and other assorted stuff, but no "Network" storage. The network is the old machine. The DV tapes are their own back-up, and they have the slides, and he burns DVD-RAM's to back-up his photo projects.
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines, uses PB G4's, and will NOT buy G5's unless he can drop his IDE RAID setup into it.
Pro doesn't just mean the guys at Pixar or the local TV station. I'll bet there are more pros like him than there are working at big studios or TV stations.
Originally posted by Yevgeny
My 2 cents:
. . .
Cent 2: I think that the whole situation is Apple's fault. They should have realized that the performance gap between the mid range G5 and the high end G5 was simply too great and that the price difference was too small given the performance difference.
. . .
I agree. Now a typical Apple solution would be to just cancel all Dual 2 GHz orders, and re-offer them @ $3499. This would be simpler than lowering the price of the 2 weaker models!
Originally posted by Placebo
For example...the Powermac Dual 2.0's cooling system was designed specifically for the Dual 2.0, and the powermac 1.8's system for the 1.8. Changing the already-butild models wouldn't be worth the struggle, unless some patch could be released before shipping.
stupid question, but wouldn't you assume that, if the 2.0 GHz chip puts out more heat than a 1.8, and all other things being equal, the dual 2.0 GHz case would be more than sufficient to cool the 1.8's without any modifications???
Don't buy every marketting tag line you hear.
Originally posted by Tidris
Everybody seems to be missing the obvious. The extremely large number of dual 2 gig preorders reported indicates that model is significantly underpriced. The logical thing to do is to increase the price of the dual 2 gig and then introduce a dual 1.8 gig at the original price of the 2 gig. The single 1.6 gig should probably be discountinued right away in order to avoid another cube-like embarrasment.
What? Raise the price of the 2 Gig? I think it's much more a problem of the other configs not being worth what they're asking for them.
Originally posted by MrSparkle
What? Raise the price of the 2 Gig? I think it's much more a problem of the other configs not being worth what they're asking for them.
exactly, AND i am surprised that no one has remarked on this yet, but this is not the first time that apple has become a victim of it's OWN marketing. remember how the G4 was constantly hammered as the only processor you would really want? well, any consumer who saw the ads wouldn't buy a G3 model unless it was way cheaper, or its industrial design was significantly advantageous (see iBook).
in this case, apple has hammered home the duals-are-better philosophy so much that it doesn't matter how much better a single G5 with improved IO system, etc is than the previous model, people want the dual.
plus, if you're like me, you've been getting by with a 400-500 MHz G4 for as long as you can stand, and have been saving your money for at least a few years. you'll be damned if you're gonna blow that cash reserve on anything but top-of-the-line, unless, of course, you can't afford it.
so the single models are just for those who need to save cash. EXCEPT if you fall in that boat, then you should be looking into one of the last year's models, where you can save a TON of money nowadays (especially since the G5 intro). as much as it pains me, i am seriously giving a dual 1.42 a serious look. anyone know dealers who still have the dual 1.42 in stock???
that's my 10 cents... the two cents are free.
Originally posted by MrSparkle
What? Raise the price of the 2 Gig? I think it's much more a problem of the other configs not being worth what they're asking for them.
The price increase should only affect those who haven't preordered the 2 gig machine, of course. The latecomers deserve a little punishment for not being willing to take the risk of ordering a machine before it can be seen and reviewed.
What about dual _1.6's_ for $2549? Then you have two options for the middle-of-the-road speed area. People who like SMP get SMP. People who want a single somewhat faster CPU get it. And Apple gets rid of excess 1.6 chips.
On another point entirely is this whole internal expansion business. Has anyone actually _looked_ at the very large TIFF of the innards? There's a lot of teensy pictures around, but somewhere off the G5 page at Apple is a very large side view image.
Which shows that 1) the two HDs take up a _very_ small piece of the upper bay. 2) The optical "drive bay" is a huge full sized bay... that's got space above and below it. Then there's a little space for the main HD fan of course.
Getting from one optical to two opticals _looks_ trivial. Use laptop parts instead of desktop parts. There's even units available that are two optical drives _attached_ that can fit (comfortably) into that bay.
If you're looking for more hard drives, it still seems like plenty of space - if you're willing to remount a smaller optical bay in there. The only question then is where to get all the connections. Luckily the PCI bay is the next one down, pick your poison. A fan upgrade is probably in order too.
In any case, all the yakking about internal storage is nuts. I'm not a pro by any stretch, but let's see:
CD, CDRW, Printer, Harddrive, DataAcquisitionWidget(SCSI-to-GPIB), Scanner, OldNearDefunctComputer, all off SCSI. (You have to hack the computer to keep it from turning on _its_ SCSI controller and frying things)
Camcorder, near defunct laptop in target-disk-mode, harddrive, , NTSC-to-FW adaptor(for old videocam), DVD off firewire.
Hub, other hub, Digicam, Bluetooth adaptor(Rocks!), inkjet, tablet, trackball, BasicSTAMP, other USB-to-Serial adapter, USB-to-assorted-memorycard-adaptor, fan, light (sorry, they were too geeky, needed one.) Oh, wait. And a piano. I'll skip the ethernet-only-non-comptuer items, ethernet isn't an 'expansion bus', get real. Does a bluetooth phone count here? I can use it as a remote control for the computer?
If I got a new computer do I _care_ if I need to add something external? Um, no? There's no sane way to do all of that stuff internally -> I'll always have _something_ external -> who cares if I have to add one more widget.
There's a lot of different types of "pro". A whole slew of them have a whole pile of external widgets already -> don't care. (Or, at least, can deal with it.) Another pile of them are working _somewhere_ -> they need their box + network.
And apparently there's a third set of Pros that obsess (really, really obsess) over price + still feel they'll swamp the computer by overloading the internal storage. For a very low price. Somehow.
Oh, and here, here , or maybe here would be some non-existant drive bays for the non-pros from just one vendor.
Why _are_ there so many choices?