when you see him getting carted off at the end, the platform he's on is glowing like there's no tomorrow. whatever that energy is supposed to represent in the movie (machine energy?) it's infused with his body so much that it's blinding.
that means that he probably is dead on some biological level, but Neo himself isn't dead. he's just become a machine energy based life now.
if he were dead dead, that platform would have looked normal.
Yes, he did die. You recall him laying motionless and unplugged on the floating platform at the end of the movie? And then the camera shifts to the "energy view" and there is none emminating from Neo? Dead. I think what you're alluding to is, as he gets closer to that "energy core" in the distance, he appears to meld into it. At least, that's what I saw.
Alternately, it could be that what Neo saw before he died, were the *souls / spirits* of all the enslaved humans... and therefore what we saw towards the end of the platform scene, was Neo's spirit. But he's still physically dead IMO.
He died because he wasn't afraid to after he lost Trinity. In fact, my suggestion is that at the end of his fight with Smith, when he is completely beaten down and weak, he realizes that he can be with Trinity again (and defeat Smith at the same time) by giving in. So he does; he sacrifices himself for the benefit of Zion / humanity, and for his own benefit (to be with Trinity). Also, the significance of the name Trinity finally comes into play here.
When the Oracle says "I suspect [we'll see him again]... someday" in response to the little girl, I suspect she is a) trying to avoid putting the little girl in distress, and b) alluding to an afterlife -- even for sentient prorgams / machines. Since many obviously have emotions like humans, this doesn't seem far-fetched to me in the context of these movies.
I ended up watching matrix 1 tues, matrix 2 weds then i went to the theater yesterday morning and watch matrix 3. i just have to say that i thought matric 3 was kick ass. what a greeat trilogy. probably the best popcorn movie trilogy since star wars.
I have questions but i have meetings all day till tues so i will have to type them up later.
quick one:
was the evil metal face dude at the end the head of all machines right, not the architect?
and yes. i do think smith "assimlated" the girl, changed the weather and in fact she changed it back to nice clouds at the end.
i just think that considering that in each of the other movies (Matrix 1 and Matrix 2) we had a character "die" then come back, Neo isn't dead.
he was just as dead in the first one.
Trinity was just as dead in the second one.
if he's laying on a platter and showing up with piles of energy in his body, he's not dead, IMO.
i couldn't care less if he was dead for a while, he'd come back before.
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.
after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?
Yes, he did die. You recall him laying motionless and unplugged on the floating platform at the end of the movie? And then the camera shifts to the "energy view" and there is none emminating from Neo? Dead. I think what you're alluding to is, as he gets closer to that "energy core" in the distance, he appears to meld into it. At least, that's what I saw.
Alternately, it could be that what Neo saw before he died, were the *souls / spirits* of all the enslaved humans... and therefore what we saw towards the end of the platform scene, was Neo's spirit. But he's still physically dead IMO.
He died because he wasn't afraid to after he lost Trinity. In fact, my suggestion is that at the end of his fight with Smith, when he is completely beaten down and weak, he realizes that he can be with Trinity again (and defeat Smith at the same time) by giving in. So he does; he sacrifices himself for the benefit of Zion / humanity, and for his own benefit (to be with Trinity). Also, the significance of the name Trinity finally comes into play here.
When the Oracle says "I suspect [we'll see him again]... someday" in response to the little girl, I suspect she is a) trying to avoid putting the little girl in distress, and b) alluding to an afterlife -- even for sentient prorgams / machines. Since many obviously have emotions like humans, this doesn't seem far-fetched to me in the context of these movies.
i just think that considering that in each of the other movies (Matrix 1 and Matrix 2) we had a character "die" then come back, Neo isn't dead.
he was just as dead in the first one.
Trinity was just as dead in the second one.
if he's laying on a platter and showing up with piles of energy in his body, he's not dead, IMO.
i couldn't care less if he was dead for a while, he'd come back before.
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.
after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?
It's different this time. Neo is dead, period, because he has no reason to live. Trinity is gone, Neo's job is done, no reason for him to come back. He's dead, let it go, man. heh
You can't duplicate a human, not even with cloning or programming. It's the soul that makes the individual. The reason why Smith was able to copy himself is because he was a program.
No, Neo is dead, he's not coming back, nor should he because his job is done.
i don't know why i keep reading this thread... i haven't even seen the movie yet... but from what i have read so far, it would have made a lot of sense if they had shown the "renaissance" animatrix shorts before the second and thrid movies. true, the osiris was a visual spectacle, and did explain a tie in with the drill, the meeting in the beginning of reloaded among the other captains, and the video game, but i though the renaissance shorts had a lot more resonance and depth to this whole machine vs. man conflict.
Too much over-analysis of a bad movie. I'm pissed they left it open-ended. They said it was going to end here...they're lying of course.
I'm just so frickin' glad it didn't end up being a Matrix within a Matrix as was speculated after Reloaded.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
As for our 'over-analysis of a bad movie', you shouldn't be so condescending; I never really thought of that as your style.
As for the 'open-endedness' of it all, like I said earlier, I don't think there is a clean way to end the Matrix story. The end of Revolutions meant the end of the war between humans and machines, and a chance for both to rebuild. What more could you ask for?
As for our 'over-analysis of a bad movie', you shouldn't be so condescending; I never really thought of that as your style.
Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending. I can only take so many blasé existentialist monologues by The Architect, Oracle and Merovingian before I get bored. I got enough of that in Reloaded.
Quote:
As for the 'open-endedness' of it all, like I said earlier, I don't think there is a clean way to end the Matrix story. The end of Revolutions meant the end of the war between humans and machines, and a chance for both to rebuild. What more could you ask for? [/B]
What more could I ask for? Proof that they'll keep their word and leave it as a trilogy.
Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending. I can only take so many blasé existentialist monologues by The Architect, Oracle and Merovingian before I get bored. I got enough of that in Reloaded.
What more could I ask for? Proof that they'll keep their word and leave it as a trilogy.
Huh. I wasn't aware having a conversation about a movie I enjoyed was condescending. I'll make a note of that in my log.
As for them keeping their word, I have yet to hear anything in the news or any source that they're making any more Matrix films. I'll keep my eye out though.
It's perfectly fine with me. Bad movies aren't always unenjoyable.
But Revolutions was especially bad...on all counts. Even the action was cliché.
I loved the choreographed bullet-time sequences in the original. I hated the fight with the Smiths in Reloaded. I loved the chase sequence in Reloaded. I hated the sugar-rush Yoda/Dooku sabre fight in AotC. I hated the roller coaster ride hovership sequences in Revolutions. I thought the Zion battle sequence was okay, but entirely implausible...I hated the final fight scene in Revolutions because it was pure chaos. Many sequences were waaaay too long. The entire movie could have been 20 minutes shorter and still gotten the same message across. I had visions of Ron Howard behind the camera throughout the movie.
It's perfectly fine with me. Bad movies aren't always unenjoyable.
But Revolutions was especially bad...on all counts. Even the action was cliché.
I loved the choreographed bullet-time sequences in the original. I hated the fight with the Smiths in Reloaded. I loved the chase sequence in Reloaded. I hated the sugar-rush Yoda/Dooku sabre fight in AotC. I hated the roller coaster ride hovership sequences in Revolutions. I thought the Zion battle sequence was okay, but entirely implausible...I hated the final fight scene in Revolutions because it was pure chaos. Many sequences were waaaay too long. The entire movie could have been 20 minutes shorter and still gotten the same message across. I had visions of Ron Howard behind the camera throughout the movie.
I'm not arguing your opinion; what has me offended is that you are not allowing those of us that LIKED Revolutions (on ALL counts) to have our own opinions and discussions. You have said your piece and have blasted us in the process for our opinion. "Too much over-analysis of a bad movie" and "Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending" being examples. It'd be like me calling you stupid for not "getting it." (Just to be clear, I am NOT calling you stupid because your opinion is your opinion.)
Just don't sit there and tell us that we shouldn't enjoy and discuss a movie because you didn't; because THAT'S condescending, not us talking about it.
Just don't sit there and tell us that we shouldn't enjoy and discuss a movie because you didn't; because THAT'S condescending, not us talking about it.
Cheers.
I'm not stopping you from discussing the movie, am I?
I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.
Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.
Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.
Dialogue is good, but all that babbling grates on you after a while.
Boy meets powerful captain. Captain shuns boy. Boy listens. Boy helps captain at just the right moment. Captain dies in front of boy. Boy listens to captain's dying words. Boy takes over for captain. Boy saves Zion. Cliché.
This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me. I've discussed this movie way too much already. Toodles.
I'm not stopping you from discussing the movie, am I?
I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.
Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.
Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.
This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me.
Actually, those are good points. But Zion, and everything in it from the chainguns, hoverships, tunnels, and everything, is a machine-construct. Zion was built by the machines as a place to put the humans who rejected the Matrix. The Architect explained that in Reloaded. Zion is just another system of control, and everything in it has been placed there to give the humans false sense of security. Even the attack in Revolutions seemed theatrical enough to allow the humans a chance to fight back and give Neo time to reach the Core. I think that's why the Architect (with the Oracle's help) inadvertantly set Neo up to save Trinity and break away from being like the other Ones.
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.
after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?
He wasn't plugged into the Architect. The machines simply jacked him into the Matrix just like when he entered the Matrix while aboard one of the hovercrafts.
The talking head wasn't the Architect either. Remember, both the Architect and the Oracle are programs. One meant for enforcing the control of the machines, the other designed to try and break that control. The machine head is called the Deus Ex Machina, effectively the 'God from the Machine." It isn't the same entity as the Architect.
Oh, and the mother comment comes from Reloaded. Remember the Architect calling the Oracle the 'mother of the Matrix?' That's where Smith gets the phrase from.
Comments
Originally posted by alcimedes
first off, Neo didn't die.
Huh?
when you see him getting carted off at the end, the platform he's on is glowing like there's no tomorrow. whatever that energy is supposed to represent in the movie (machine energy?) it's infused with his body so much that it's blinding.
that means that he probably is dead on some biological level, but Neo himself isn't dead. he's just become a machine energy based life now.
if he were dead dead, that platform would have looked normal.
Alternately, it could be that what Neo saw before he died, were the *souls / spirits* of all the enslaved humans... and therefore what we saw towards the end of the platform scene, was Neo's spirit. But he's still physically dead IMO.
He died because he wasn't afraid to after he lost Trinity. In fact, my suggestion is that at the end of his fight with Smith, when he is completely beaten down and weak, he realizes that he can be with Trinity again (and defeat Smith at the same time) by giving in. So he does; he sacrifices himself for the benefit of Zion / humanity, and for his own benefit (to be with Trinity). Also, the significance of the name Trinity finally comes into play here.
When the Oracle says "I suspect [we'll see him again]... someday" in response to the little girl, I suspect she is a) trying to avoid putting the little girl in distress, and b) alluding to an afterlife -- even for sentient prorgams / machines. Since many obviously have emotions like humans, this doesn't seem far-fetched to me in the context of these movies.
I have questions but i have meetings all day till tues so i will have to type them up later.
quick one:
was the evil metal face dude at the end the head of all machines right, not the architect?
and yes. i do think smith "assimlated" the girl, changed the weather and in fact she changed it back to nice clouds at the end.
he was just as dead in the first one.
Trinity was just as dead in the second one.
if he's laying on a platter and showing up with piles of energy in his body, he's not dead, IMO.
i couldn't care less if he was dead for a while, he'd come back before.
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.
after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?
Originally posted by Moogs
Yes, he did die. You recall him laying motionless and unplugged on the floating platform at the end of the movie? And then the camera shifts to the "energy view" and there is none emminating from Neo? Dead. I think what you're alluding to is, as he gets closer to that "energy core" in the distance, he appears to meld into it. At least, that's what I saw.
Alternately, it could be that what Neo saw before he died, were the *souls / spirits* of all the enslaved humans... and therefore what we saw towards the end of the platform scene, was Neo's spirit. But he's still physically dead IMO.
He died because he wasn't afraid to after he lost Trinity. In fact, my suggestion is that at the end of his fight with Smith, when he is completely beaten down and weak, he realizes that he can be with Trinity again (and defeat Smith at the same time) by giving in. So he does; he sacrifices himself for the benefit of Zion / humanity, and for his own benefit (to be with Trinity). Also, the significance of the name Trinity finally comes into play here.
When the Oracle says "I suspect [we'll see him again]... someday" in response to the little girl, I suspect she is a) trying to avoid putting the little girl in distress, and b) alluding to an afterlife -- even for sentient prorgams / machines. Since many obviously have emotions like humans, this doesn't seem far-fetched to me in the context of these movies.
Exactly.
Originally posted by alcimedes
i just think that considering that in each of the other movies (Matrix 1 and Matrix 2) we had a character "die" then come back, Neo isn't dead.
he was just as dead in the first one.
Trinity was just as dead in the second one.
if he's laying on a platter and showing up with piles of energy in his body, he's not dead, IMO.
i couldn't care less if he was dead for a while, he'd come back before.
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.
after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?
It's different this time. Neo is dead, period, because he has no reason to live. Trinity is gone, Neo's job is done, no reason for him to come back. He's dead, let it go, man. heh
You can't duplicate a human, not even with cloning or programming. It's the soul that makes the individual. The reason why Smith was able to copy himself is because he was a program.
No, Neo is dead, he's not coming back, nor should he because his job is done.
I'm just so frickin' glad it didn't end up being a Matrix within a Matrix as was speculated after Reloaded.
Originally posted by Eugene
Too much over-analysis of a bad movie. I'm pissed they left it open-ended. They said it was going to end here...they're lying of course.
I'm just so frickin' glad it didn't end up being a Matrix within a Matrix as was speculated after Reloaded.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
As for our 'over-analysis of a bad movie', you shouldn't be so condescending; I never really thought of that as your style.
As for the 'open-endedness' of it all, like I said earlier, I don't think there is a clean way to end the Matrix story. The end of Revolutions meant the end of the war between humans and machines, and a chance for both to rebuild. What more could you ask for?
Originally posted by Gambit
As for our 'over-analysis of a bad movie', you shouldn't be so condescending; I never really thought of that as your style.
Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending. I can only take so many blasé existentialist monologues by The Architect, Oracle and Merovingian before I get bored. I got enough of that in Reloaded.
As for the 'open-endedness' of it all, like I said earlier, I don't think there is a clean way to end the Matrix story. The end of Revolutions meant the end of the war between humans and machines, and a chance for both to rebuild. What more could you ask for? [/B]
What more could I ask for? Proof that they'll keep their word and leave it as a trilogy.
Originally posted by Eugene
Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending. I can only take so many blasé existentialist monologues by The Architect, Oracle and Merovingian before I get bored. I got enough of that in Reloaded.
What more could I ask for? Proof that they'll keep their word and leave it as a trilogy.
Huh. I wasn't aware having a conversation about a movie I enjoyed was condescending. I'll make a note of that in my log.
As for them keeping their word, I have yet to hear anything in the news or any source that they're making any more Matrix films. I'll keep my eye out though.
But Revolutions was especially bad...on all counts. Even the action was cliché.
I loved the choreographed bullet-time sequences in the original. I hated the fight with the Smiths in Reloaded. I loved the chase sequence in Reloaded. I hated the sugar-rush Yoda/Dooku sabre fight in AotC. I hated the roller coaster ride hovership sequences in Revolutions. I thought the Zion battle sequence was okay, but entirely implausible...I hated the final fight scene in Revolutions because it was pure chaos. Many sequences were waaaay too long. The entire movie could have been 20 minutes shorter and still gotten the same message across. I had visions of Ron Howard behind the camera throughout the movie.
Originally posted by Eugene
It's perfectly fine with me. Bad movies aren't always unenjoyable.
But Revolutions was especially bad...on all counts. Even the action was cliché.
I loved the choreographed bullet-time sequences in the original. I hated the fight with the Smiths in Reloaded. I loved the chase sequence in Reloaded. I hated the sugar-rush Yoda/Dooku sabre fight in AotC. I hated the roller coaster ride hovership sequences in Revolutions. I thought the Zion battle sequence was okay, but entirely implausible...I hated the final fight scene in Revolutions because it was pure chaos. Many sequences were waaaay too long. The entire movie could have been 20 minutes shorter and still gotten the same message across. I had visions of Ron Howard behind the camera throughout the movie.
I'm not arguing your opinion; what has me offended is that you are not allowing those of us that LIKED Revolutions (on ALL counts) to have our own opinions and discussions. You have said your piece and have blasted us in the process for our opinion. "Too much over-analysis of a bad movie" and "Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending" being examples. It'd be like me calling you stupid for not "getting it." (Just to be clear, I am NOT calling you stupid because your opinion is your opinion.)
Just don't sit there and tell us that we shouldn't enjoy and discuss a movie because you didn't; because THAT'S condescending, not us talking about it.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Gambit
Just don't sit there and tell us that we shouldn't enjoy and discuss a movie because you didn't; because THAT'S condescending, not us talking about it.
Cheers.
I'm not stopping you from discussing the movie, am I?
I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.
Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.
Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.
Dialogue is good, but all that babbling grates on you after a while.
Boy meets powerful captain. Captain shuns boy. Boy listens. Boy helps captain at just the right moment. Captain dies in front of boy. Boy listens to captain's dying words. Boy takes over for captain. Boy saves Zion. Cliché.
This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me. I've discussed this movie way too much already. Toodles.
Originally posted by Eugene
I'm not stopping you from discussing the movie, am I?
I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.
Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.
Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.
This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me.
Actually, those are good points. But Zion, and everything in it from the chainguns, hoverships, tunnels, and everything, is a machine-construct. Zion was built by the machines as a place to put the humans who rejected the Matrix. The Architect explained that in Reloaded. Zion is just another system of control, and everything in it has been placed there to give the humans false sense of security. Even the attack in Revolutions seemed theatrical enough to allow the humans a chance to fight back and give Neo time to reach the Core. I think that's why the Architect (with the Oracle's help) inadvertantly set Neo up to save Trinity and break away from being like the other Ones.
lol But I'm pretty sure you don't care.
Originally posted by Eugene
Have you seen Kill Bill?
I did. I rather enjoyed that one, as well. I like Quentin's work. ...... Or is that the wrong answer?
Originally posted by alcimedes
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.
after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?
He wasn't plugged into the Architect. The machines simply jacked him into the Matrix just like when he entered the Matrix while aboard one of the hovercrafts.
The talking head wasn't the Architect either. Remember, both the Architect and the Oracle are programs. One meant for enforcing the control of the machines, the other designed to try and break that control. The machine head is called the Deus Ex Machina, effectively the 'God from the Machine." It isn't the same entity as the Architect.
Oh, and the mother comment comes from Reloaded. Remember the Architect calling the Oracle the 'mother of the Matrix?' That's where Smith gets the phrase from.