They're also not saved as documents to a space where you can generally get to them.
I consider the web to be read-only, with some minimal content pushback to the server. Still a far cry from user-controlled document creation.
Depends on what you use the web for I guess. I think our Mac-centric experience shelters us from how far along web applications have gotten. The web's not standing still, and it's not going to revert to anything simpler than it already is. ActiveX anyone?
Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer are becoming the one app. Safari and the Finder are on their way. If Safari can have user-spawnable tabs, then I think most apps including the Finder should have them too.
iTunes and iPhoto also attempt to hide the actual locations of the documents from the user too...
Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer are becoming the one app. Safari and the Finder are on their way.
If that happened, I would stop using the Finder and Safari. Microsoft is totally misguided integrating their file browser and web browser, and I see no evidence of Apple heading down that path.
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
iTunes and iPhoto also attempt to hide the actual locations of the documents from the user too...
That's because they are Music and Photo browsers, not file browsers.
Why don't we define "tabs" first. What exactly is a tab? What does a tab do? If you ask me, we have tabs everywhere: The side column in the finder is tab like, playlist in iTunes act like tabs, the Preferences pane, and on and on. True that only Safari has tabs that look like traditional tabs, but all the others are all "tab like". So what exactly is a tab?
Didja miss me? How many pages did we generate last time?
Anyway, love 'em in Safari (like I said I would) and don't think that I'd love them when I was working between five open graphics apps. Time and place.
And for anyone still confused as to where we all fall, Eugene is a TAB-HATER. I can't remember everyone else's allegiance..... I'm personally a TABBED WEB BROWSER LOVER.
Tabs on a browser work very well. Go read [plug]macsurfer[/plug] with and without tabs. If you know how to use tabs your experience will be more gratifying and faster with tabs.
Actually, I read MacSurfer regularly. I use tabs on Windows (Firebird) but not on the Mac (OmniWeb). The difference? Native window management and browser features. On the Mac, Open Link Behind This Window and Command-~ obviate tabs completely.
There are two types, the keyboard people and the mouse people. Mouse people hate using the keyboard and keyboard people prefer to use the keyboard. No one will ever convince one to dig the other.
And for anyone still confused as to where we all fall, Eugene is a TAB-HATER. I can't remember everyone else's allegiance..... I'm personally a TABBED WEB BROWSER LOVER.
Wheeeeee!
No, I love tabs, all tabs! I would like tabs in a house, with a mouse, in a box, with a fox.
Big words from a thirteen year old, but you are incorrect. Safari handles advanced web applications, forms and what not. Those are not read-only. The web is like one HUGE interactive application.
Yes, but web pages are most definitely not able to be manipulated as you manipulate files in the Finder. I NEVER have to drag-and-drop in Safari, or any other sort of "inutitive" editing, a la iTunes or Finder. Safari is interactive in the way TextEdit is.
I'm not even going to comment on how your standard of "correctness" is your own unmalleable opinion.
Actually, I read MacSurfer regularly. I use tabs on Windows (Firebird) but not on the Mac (OmniWeb). The difference? Native window management and browser features. On the Mac, Open Link Behind This Window and Command-~ obviate tabs completely.
Not really. It's harder to manage all of the windows when you can't see them all. It's like the old OS 9 application switcher. It's not as useful when it's closed all the time. One glance at the dock and you can see what's running. That's quicker.
My guess is that most people who don't like tabs don't live in a 1024x768 world.
EDIT: I do love that Open Link Behind option though.
Not really. It's harder to manage all of the windows when you can't see them all. It's like the old OS 9 application switcher. It's not as useful when it's closed all the time. One glance at the dock and you can see what's running. That's quicker.
Perhaps, but they still obviate tabs for me completely.
My main objection to MDI of any kind is simply that no provision is made for them generally. They introduce special cases and exceptions, which you want kept to an absolute bare minimum in a GUI.
Quote:
My guess is that most people who don't like tabs don't live in a 1024x768 world.
I'm not even going to comment on how your standard of "correctness" is your own unmalleable opinion.
You like tabs in Safari, right? Why can't you let us have Tabs in the Finder? That's a double standard. It'd be a great option!! Who's the one being unmalleable! I'm just asking for the option! You don't have to use it!!!!!!1111oneone
For those of us in a 1024 x 768 world, Exposé beats the living snot out of tabs any day of the week. Tabs are painfully insular, inflexible and in the end more complicated. I don't even minimize windows in Panther any more, and I have plenty of windows open at once. Almost immediately after I learned Exposé in Panther (that is, about 1 minute after booting into Panther), I discontinued my little experiment with Safari tabs because the tabs got in the way. Tabs look neat and tidy, but they complicate window management as another "thing" to deal with, another layer to wade through.
And don't come back with some story about giving the user "choices." It's the responsibility of the OS maker to offer good choices and de discriminating about them, not just throw any choices at the users. You can find a very different approach in the other major OSes, and predictable results to show for it.
Agent Macintosh, I've noticed that you have finally given us a picture of what you were talking about. One question, why would you need that when the sidebar in the finder does exactly just that?
I hate to bring up a thread that has been dead for a few days and has been the source of so much passion. But I'm intrigued by this hate/love phenomenon regarding tabs.
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Tabs are seen as a useful sort of "simple" UI for less sophisticated users. But they conflict with the concept of direct manipulation which is supposed to be for beginners and more rudimentary users. Tabs reduce visual clutter but make window management far less flexible than even parent-child windows nevermind the window = document rule of thumb on Macs. It's a question of how much you're sacrificing to keep applications looking neat and self-contained.
The problem isn't entirely due to the use of Tabs, but what the system is currently not doing with Tabs. Very diferent. With the CURRENT Tabs, we have window management limitations. This is true.
Tabs fall short in two areas, when we want to drag and drop and when we need to see two windows side by side for reference.
For drag and drop we should be able to drag something into a Tab's tab and have that Tab's environment spring into view. Yes very much like spring loaded folders. I see this becoming a feature in the near future. Actually, I think drag and drop will evolve into something a lot more powerful. I see one being able to pick up a selection and go on doing what we normally do, such as opening and clicking menu items, open an app, folders, whatnot while having what you picked up appended to the pointer and drooping it when you have what you want ready and in view. This would be much, much, much faster than spring loaded folders as well a having a more powerful drag and drop feature. Sometimes I find myself in the middle of dragging and dropping only to find out that I have not set up the environment necessary to complete the action and have to abort it. This is backwards. I should be able to think and just do, instead of prepare then do. This is where the Mac has always excelled over Windows.
As far as side by side windowing viewing, tabs should be able to be pealed off, much like you can open (peal off) a playlist in iTunes separate from the others to compare it's contents side by side.
Even with Expose, Tabs DO have a place and a use for in our GUI and aren't for less sophisticated users. When all the missing features have been implemented, Tabs will play an important role in cleaning up our desktop while still giving us all the greatness found in having separate windows.
You shouldn't just be able to peel off a tab. You should be able to peel it off and replace it to another window in a completely different app. Any tab should be pileable on ANY window. It'd be so great!
Comments
Originally posted by Kickaha
They're also not saved as documents to a space where you can generally get to them.
I consider the web to be read-only, with some minimal content pushback to the server. Still a far cry from user-controlled document creation.
Depends on what you use the web for I guess. I think our Mac-centric experience shelters us from how far along web applications have gotten. The web's not standing still, and it's not going to revert to anything simpler than it already is. ActiveX anyone?
Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer are becoming the one app. Safari and the Finder are on their way. If Safari can have user-spawnable tabs, then I think most apps including the Finder should have them too.
iTunes and iPhoto also attempt to hide the actual locations of the documents from the user too...
Originally posted by Eugene
Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer are becoming the one app. Safari and the Finder are on their way.
If that happened, I would stop using the Finder and Safari. Microsoft is totally misguided integrating their file browser and web browser, and I see no evidence of Apple heading down that path.
Originally posted by Eugene
iTunes and iPhoto also attempt to hide the actual locations of the documents from the user too...
That's because they are Music and Photo browsers, not file browsers.
Barto
Sorry I'm late to the tabs party Eugene!!
Didja miss me? How many pages did we generate last time?
Anyway, love 'em in Safari (like I said I would) and don't think that I'd love them when I was working between five open graphics apps. Time and place.
And for anyone still confused as to where we all fall, Eugene is a TAB-HATER. I can't remember everyone else's allegiance..... I'm personally a TABBED WEB BROWSER LOVER.
Wheeeeee!
Originally posted by bunge
Tabs on a browser work very well. Go read [plug]macsurfer[/plug] with and without tabs. If you know how to use tabs your experience will be more gratifying and faster with tabs.
Actually, I read MacSurfer regularly. I use tabs on Windows (Firebird) but not on the Mac (OmniWeb). The difference? Native window management and browser features. On the Mac, Open Link Behind This Window and Command-~ obviate tabs completely.
Tabs are a kludge around a broken window management system... which we don't have to deal with on MacOS X.
Originally posted by drewprops
And for anyone still confused as to where we all fall, Eugene is a TAB-HATER. I can't remember everyone else's allegiance..... I'm personally a TABBED WEB BROWSER LOVER.
Wheeeeee!
No, I love tabs, all tabs! I would like tabs in a house, with a mouse, in a box, with a fox.
Originally posted by Eugene
Big words from a thirteen year old, but you are incorrect. Safari handles advanced web applications, forms and what not. Those are not read-only. The web is like one HUGE interactive application.
Yes, but web pages are most definitely not able to be manipulated as you manipulate files in the Finder. I NEVER have to drag-and-drop in Safari, or any other sort of "inutitive" editing, a la iTunes or Finder. Safari is interactive in the way TextEdit is.
I'm not even going to comment on how your standard of "correctness" is your own unmalleable opinion.
Originally posted by Eugene
No, I love tabs, all tabs! I would like tabs in a house, with a mouse, in a box, with a fox.
LOL
Originally posted by Amorph
Actually, I read MacSurfer regularly. I use tabs on Windows (Firebird) but not on the Mac (OmniWeb). The difference? Native window management and browser features. On the Mac, Open Link Behind This Window and Command-~ obviate tabs completely.
Not really. It's harder to manage all of the windows when you can't see them all. It's like the old OS 9 application switcher. It's not as useful when it's closed all the time. One glance at the dock and you can see what's running. That's quicker.
My guess is that most people who don't like tabs don't live in a 1024x768 world.
EDIT: I do love that Open Link Behind option though.
Originally posted by bunge
Not really. It's harder to manage all of the windows when you can't see them all. It's like the old OS 9 application switcher. It's not as useful when it's closed all the time. One glance at the dock and you can see what's running. That's quicker.
Perhaps, but they still obviate tabs for me completely.
My main objection to MDI of any kind is simply that no provision is made for them generally. They introduce special cases and exceptions, which you want kept to an absolute bare minimum in a GUI.
My guess is that most people who don't like tabs don't live in a 1024x768 world.
Unfortunately for your guess, I do.
Originally posted by Placebo
I'm not even going to comment on how your standard of "correctness" is your own unmalleable opinion.
You like tabs in Safari, right? Why can't you let us have Tabs in the Finder? That's a double standard. It'd be a great option!! Who's the one being unmalleable! I'm just asking for the option! You don't have to use it!!!!!!1111oneone
Originally posted by Kickaha
Ex-po-SÉ! Ex-po-SÉ! Ex-po-SÉ! Ex-po-SÉ!
Hear! Hear!
For those of us in a 1024 x 768 world, Exposé beats the living snot out of tabs any day of the week. Tabs are painfully insular, inflexible and in the end more complicated. I don't even minimize windows in Panther any more, and I have plenty of windows open at once. Almost immediately after I learned Exposé in Panther (that is, about 1 minute after booting into Panther), I discontinued my little experiment with Safari tabs because the tabs got in the way. Tabs look neat and tidy, but they complicate window management as another "thing" to deal with, another layer to wade through.
And don't come back with some story about giving the user "choices." It's the responsibility of the OS maker to offer good choices and de discriminating about them, not just throw any choices at the users. You can find a very different approach in the other major OSes, and predictable results to show for it.
[edit: I repeat myself. I repeat myself.]
It's like the Macintosh Roe vs Wade.
Barto
I hate to bring up a thread that has been dead for a few days and has been the source of so much passion. But I'm intrigued by this hate/love phenomenon regarding tabs.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Tabs are seen as a useful sort of "simple" UI for less sophisticated users. But they conflict with the concept of direct manipulation which is supposed to be for beginners and more rudimentary users. Tabs reduce visual clutter but make window management far less flexible than even parent-child windows nevermind the window = document rule of thumb on Macs. It's a question of how much you're sacrificing to keep applications looking neat and self-contained.
The problem isn't entirely due to the use of Tabs, but what the system is currently not doing with Tabs. Very diferent. With the CURRENT Tabs, we have window management limitations. This is true.
Tabs fall short in two areas, when we want to drag and drop and when we need to see two windows side by side for reference.
For drag and drop we should be able to drag something into a Tab's tab and have that Tab's environment spring into view. Yes very much like spring loaded folders. I see this becoming a feature in the near future. Actually, I think drag and drop will evolve into something a lot more powerful. I see one being able to pick up a selection and go on doing what we normally do, such as opening and clicking menu items, open an app, folders, whatnot while having what you picked up appended to the pointer and drooping it when you have what you want ready and in view. This would be much, much, much faster than spring loaded folders as well a having a more powerful drag and drop feature. Sometimes I find myself in the middle of dragging and dropping only to find out that I have not set up the environment necessary to complete the action and have to abort it. This is backwards. I should be able to think and just do, instead of prepare then do. This is where the Mac has always excelled over Windows.
As far as side by side windowing viewing, tabs should be able to be pealed off, much like you can open (peal off) a playlist in iTunes separate from the others to compare it's contents side by side.
Even with Expose, Tabs DO have a place and a use for in our GUI and aren't for less sophisticated users. When all the missing features have been implemented, Tabs will play an important role in cleaning up our desktop while still giving us all the greatness found in having separate windows.
Cheers.