I'm sure if me or Scott were in the National Guard and didn't show up when we were asked to during an 8 month timespan... we would be at the least considered AWOL... and if during wartime... a deserter...
I don't care if it was to come on base and clean the Base Commander's car... you show up.
I mean how nice would it be to get to fly jets for 6 years and know you'll never see combat? On the taxpayer's dime no less... FREE FLIGHT SCHOOL.. you get to be a fly boy... and he couldn't finish it...
I would ask to fly every damn weekend!
I wonder what year they started drug testing in the Texas Air National Guard.
I'm going to trust that Michael Moore is able to know the facts. He either choose to be ignorant or wrong. Either way there's no excuse for him to be wrong on something like that.
The only pass he gets is that he's a walking cartoon. Tune in and see what zany thing he'll say this week.
All the times article shows is that he wasn't thrown in the brig.
That they looked away while he broke the rules. And they let him comeback after 2 years of being awol... so he wouldn't be charged as a deserter... they couldn't have the Ambassador to the UN's son be arrested... the Chairman of the RNC be shamed by his fortunate son.
And his record certainly doesn't have any glowing descriptions of his service. Which is hard to get if you're not showing up. Puts a damper on your partying.
I suspect daddy said "you're gonna get your ass back to that base and do what it takes to get them off your back... and then you're going to Harvard Business school... where you won't learn much, but it'll keep you out of trouble."
All the times article shows is that he wasn't thrown in the brig.
That they looked away while he broke the rules. And they let him comeback after 2 years of being awol... so he wouldn't be charged as a deserter... they couldn't have the Ambassador to the UN's son be arrested... the Chairman of the RNC be shamed by his fortunate son.
And his record certainly doesn't have any glowing descriptions of his service. Which is hard to get if you're not showing up. Puts a damper on your partying.
I suspect daddy said "you're gonna get your ass back to that base and do what it takes to get them off your back... and then you're going to Harvard Business school... where you won't learn much, but it'll keep you out of trouble."
I'm still trying to find the article (in either LexisNexis or ProQuest), since all we're doing is arguing about what someone said about an article someone else wrote.
Haven't even read. Just posting. I have the other as well:
Quote:
Copyright New York Times Company Nov 3, 2000
Two Democratic senators today called on Gov. George W. Bush to release his full military record to resolve doubts raised by a newspaper about whether he reported for required drills when he was in the Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973.
But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns may be unfounded. Documents reviewed by The Times showed that Mr. Bushserved in at least 9 of the 17 months in question.
Dan Bartlett, a Bush spokesman, said that Mr. Bush had fulfilled his military obligations ''or he would not have been honorably discharged.''
The senators, Daniel K. Inouye of Hawaii and Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, both Medal of Honor winners, were responding, in a telephone conference with reporters, to an article in The Boston Globe on Tuesday.
The article, citing military records for Mr. Bush, raised questions about whether Mr. Bush performed any duty from April 1972 until September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.
A review by The Times showed that after a seven-month gap, he appeared for duty in late November 1972 at least through July 1973.
Mr. Bush was assigned to the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston, from November 1969, last flying there on April 16, 1972.
In a report dated May 26, 1972, his commander, Maj. William D. Harris Jr., said Mr. Bush had ''recently accepted the position as campaign manager for a candidate for the United States Senate.''
Mr. Bush went to work for Winton M. Blount a few days after Mr. Blount won the Republican primary in Alabama on May 2, 1972.
From that time until after the election that November, Mr. Bush did not appear for duty, even after being told to report for training with an Alabama unit in October and November.
Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush had been too busy with the campaign to report in those months but made up the time later.
On Sept. 5, 1972, Mr. Bush asked his Texas Air National Guard superiors for assignment to the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery ''for the months of September, October and November.''
Capt. Kenneth K. Lott, chief of the personnel branch of the 187th Tactical Recon Group, told the Texas commanders that training in September had already occurred but that more training was scheduled for Oct. 7 and 8 and Nov. 4 and 5. But Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush did not serve on those dates because he was involved in the Senate campaign, but he made up those dates later.
Colonel Turnipseed, who retired as a general, said in an interview that regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter.
Mr. Bartlett pointed to a document in Mr. Bush's military records that showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. 29 and for eight days ending Dec. 14, 1972, and, after he moved back to Houston, on dates in January, April and May.
The May dates correlated with orders sent to Mr. Bush at his Houston apartment on April 23, 1973, in which Sgt. Billy B. Lamar told Mr. Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10.
Another document showed that Mr. Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973, a period of time questioned by The Globe.
New York Times._(Late Edition (East Coast))._New York, N.Y.:_Nov 3, 2000.__pg._A.27
Two high-profile surrogates for Vice President Gore, in an 11th- hour attempt to exploit a dormant issue, yesterday castigated George W. Bush over allegations that he did not fulfill some of his National Guard duties in the 1970s.
Democratic Sens. Bob Kerrey (Neb.) and Daniel Inouye (Hawaii), both Medal of Honor winners, were drafted to attack Bush on a 27- year-old controversy that the Gore campaign has avoided mentioning until now. They spoke by phone to a veterans rally in Nashville led by Sen. Max Cleland (D-Ga.), a decorated Vietnam veteran. Reporters were invited to listen by conference call.
Bush says he fulfilled all his obligations as a pilot in the Air National Guard, but he has had difficulty rebutting charges that he played hooky for a year.
"Where were you, Governor Bush?" Inouye asked. "What about your commitment? What would you do as commander in chief if someone in the Guard or service did the same thing?"
Kerrey questioned how Bush immediately got into the Guard "even though there were 500 people ahead of him" at a time when "350 Americans were dying every single week in Vietnam." Kerrey has been drawing a sharp contrast with Gore, who served in Vietnam.
Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer called the attacks "the final throes of a campaign that has now lost any semblance of decency. The governor, of course, was honorably discharged, and these are inventions and fabrications. All the questions have been answered."
But Gore spokesman Mark Fabiani said the senators "seem to have raised some very important questions . . . that deserve an answer."
Bush signed up with the Texas National Guard for six years in May 1968, which allowed him to avoid the Vietnam draft. He became an F- 102 pilot in 1970 but made his last flight in April 1972 before moving to Alabama to work on a GOP Senate campaign. The dispute centers on what he did in the Guard between that point and September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.
Bush campaign officials say their evidence shows that he did his duty in 1972-73, when he worked for six months on the Senate race in Alabama and then returned to his home base outside Houston. But other documents in his Guard record contradict that claim, and critics who have examined that record contend that he also skimped on his obligations in 1973-74. It is safe to say that Bush did very light duty in his last two years in the Guard and that his superiors made it easy for him.
The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now- retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load, telling him to apply to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala.
Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the 9921st, an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures on first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try. . . . It was the least participation of any type of unit." But Air Force Reserve officials rejected the assignment, saying Bush had two more years of military obligations and was ineligible for a reserve squadron that had nothing to do with flying airplanes. Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett said Bush didn't know that when he applied.
Bush had been notified that he needed to take his annual flying physical by his 26th birthday in July 1972, but the move to Alabama made that unnecessary. He had been trained to fly F-102 fighter- interceptors, and none of the units in Alabama had those planes. He could have taken the physical to preserve his pilot's status but chose not to do so. "Because he wasn't flying," Bartlett said.
On Aug. 1, 1972, Bush's commander in Houston, Col. Bobby W. Hodges, ordered him grounded for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination." Some critics say this should have triggered a formal board of inquiry, but Hodges said in an interview that this was unnecessary because Bush accepted the penalty and knew "he couldn't fly again until he takes a physical."
"It happens all the time," Hodges said of the grounding. "That is normal when a Guardsman is out of state or out of the country."
In September, Bush was assigned to another Alabama unit, the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group. Since "Lieutenant Bush will not be able to satisfy his flight requirements with our group," the unit told him to report for "equivalent training"--such as debriefing pilots--on the weekends of Oct. 7-8 and Nov. 4-5, 1972.
There is no evidence in his record that he showed up on either weekend. Friends on the Alabama campaign say he told them of having to do Guard duty, but the retired general who commanded the 187th, William Turnipseed, and his personnel chief, Kenneth K. Lott, say they do not remember Bush ever reporting.
The Bush campaign points to a torn piece of paper in his Guard records, a statement of points Bush apparently earned in 1972-73, although most of the dates andBush's name except for the "W" have been torn off.
According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with 56 points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush's annual effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report," May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973.
Hodges also said he did not see Bush at the Texas base again after Bush left for Montgomery. "If I had been there on the day[s] he came out, I would have seen him," Hodges said.
The Washington Post._Washington, D.C.:_Nov 3, 2000.__pg._A.22
THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: MILITARY SERVICE; Bush's Guard Attendance Is Questioned and Defended
By JO THOMAS (NYT) 657 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 27 , Column 5
ABSTRACT - Democratic senators Daniel K Inouye and Bob Kerrey call on Gov George W Bush to release full military record to clear up doubts raised by Boston Globe about whether he reported for required drills while member of Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973; review by New York Times shows concerns may be unfounded; Bush spokesman says he fulfilled all military obligations or would not have received honorable discharge (M)
Holy ****ing shit on a stick he may not have shown up for drillsAWOL DESERTER!!!! MOORE IS RIGHT
It wasn't one fricking weekend... you're like a skipping record... he was to report in Alabama for duty while he worked for the Senate campaign... and he didn't he blew it off...
but to you... hey it's no big deal...he gets out of going to vietnam... and parties on the campaign circuit. Shirking your responsibilities is ok if everyone ignores it.
Why show up on weekends... that's when you PARTAAAAY!
from Amercain Dynasty... over at TBOGG
The second intriguing discovery, brought to light in 2000, was that George W. had interrupted the fulfillment of his Air National Guard obligations for almost a year, beginning in May 1972. One reason, journalists suggested, might have been to avoid taking a required air force physical examination that was subject to random drug testing. Senior officers seem to have covered for him; he was not discharged or drafted, as he might have been. Questions have been raised about Bush aides allegedly tampering with the air force files. The substance of the events is not in doubt.
Neither episode proved there had been any cocaine-related arrest, and the exculpatory explanation accepted by the press for George W.'s voluntary service at PULL, the Houston inner-city group, was that George H.W. Bush himself had arranged it after his eldest son had turned up one night after driving while intoxicated. Further pursuit of this issue by the major media was negligible, although pointed coverage did run in the Sunday Times of London. Among U.S. newspapers, the closest attention came in the Boston Globe of May 23, 2000:
Still, the puzzling gap in Bush's military service is likely to heighten speculation about the conspicuous underachievement that marked the period between his 1968 graduation from Yale University and his 1973 entry into Harvard Business School. It is speculation that Bush has helped to fuel: For example, he refused for months last year to say whether he had ever used illegal drugs. Subsequently, however, Bush amended his stance, saying that he had not done so since 1974.
Oh and ... from Orcinus
Can anyone name any veteran who has been a major candidate for the presidency in the past half-century who has not released his military records?
This list, it must be remembered, includes John McCain, Robert Dole, George H.W. Bush, Gerald Ford, Barry Goldwater, and Dwight D. Eisenhower. Not to mention John Kerry, Wesley Clark, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, George McGovern, Lyndon Baines Johnson, John F. Kennedy, and Harry Truman.
The answer, as near as I can determine: One. George W. Bush.
There is no evidence in his record that he showed up on either weekend. Friends on the Alabama campaign say he told them of having to do Guard duty, but the retired general who commanded the 187th, William Turnipseed, and his personnel chief, Kenneth K. Lott, say they do not remember Bush ever reporting.
The Bush campaign points to a torn piece of paper in his Guard records, a statement of points Bush apparently earned in 1972-73, although most of the dates andBush's name except for the "W" have been torn off.
According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with 56 points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush's annual effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report," May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973.
The difference between these two stories is amazing.
I've heard a year, 8 months and now 10 months. Either way it's more than a weekend and, um, ergo you're a bigger liar than Michael Moore.
To anyone remotely concerned, if Bush was really gone 10 months would you consider that AWOL? Wrong? Unworthy of becoming Commander in Chief? Personally I think that if it's correct the guy should have to fess up to it.
Weekend service means you work during the week and show up for service on the weekend. Which I assume Bush was on. Don't most guard members work regular jobs and show up on the weekend?
But with the NYT article posted above we're back to where we started. Moore is a liar and this was put to rest back in 2000. I win again.
Weekend service means you work during the week and show up for service on the weekend. Which I assume Bush was on. Don't most guard members work regular jobs and show up on the weekend?
But with the NYT article posted above we're back to where we started. Moore is a liar and this was put to rest back in 2000. I win again.
By all means, feel free to ignore the WaPo's actual discussion of those "documents," as well as its description of them and their context.
Weekend service means you work during the week and show up for service on the weekend. Which I assume Bush was on. Don't most guard members work regular jobs and show up on the weekend?
Yes, but he didn't show up on weekdays or weekends for approximately a year. That means he didn't make up missed time in the same quarter. That means apparently he went AWOL.
True or not, how else would you define this scenario?
Comments
I don't care if it was to come on base and clean the Base Commander's car... you show up.
I mean how nice would it be to get to fly jets for 6 years and know you'll never see combat? On the taxpayer's dime no less... FREE FLIGHT SCHOOL.. you get to be a fly boy... and he couldn't finish it...
I would ask to fly every damn weekend!
I wonder what year they started drug testing in the Texas Air National Guard.
Originally posted by midwinter
Ergo the moon is made of cheese. Ergo Newton was wrong. Ergo the earth is flat. Ergo it's turtles all the way down.
That's a nice word you have there, "ergo." Means "therefore." Too bad just using it doesn't make something so.
No but the NYT finding out that Bush fulfilled his service and Moore calling Bush a deserter does. Ergo I'm correct.
Originally posted by Scott
No but the NYT finding out that Bush fulfilled his service and Moore calling Bush a deserter does. Ergo I'm correct.
No, ergo, you've made one of your normal leaps in logic.
Question:
Is there a difference between saying a thing and being misinformed, and lying?
The only pass he gets is that he's a walking cartoon. Tune in and see what zany thing he'll say this week.
That they looked away while he broke the rules. And they let him comeback after 2 years of being awol... so he wouldn't be charged as a deserter... they couldn't have the Ambassador to the UN's son be arrested... the Chairman of the RNC be shamed by his fortunate son.
And his record certainly doesn't have any glowing descriptions of his service. Which is hard to get if you're not showing up. Puts a damper on your partying.
I suspect daddy said "you're gonna get your ass back to that base and do what it takes to get them off your back... and then you're going to Harvard Business school... where you won't learn much, but it'll keep you out of trouble."
Originally posted by chu_bakka
All the times article shows is that he wasn't thrown in the brig.
That they looked away while he broke the rules. And they let him comeback after 2 years of being awol... so he wouldn't be charged as a deserter... they couldn't have the Ambassador to the UN's son be arrested... the Chairman of the RNC be shamed by his fortunate son.
And his record certainly doesn't have any glowing descriptions of his service. Which is hard to get if you're not showing up. Puts a damper on your partying.
I suspect daddy said "you're gonna get your ass back to that base and do what it takes to get them off your back... and then you're going to Harvard Business school... where you won't learn much, but it'll keep you out of trouble."
I'm still trying to find the article (in either LexisNexis or ProQuest), since all we're doing is arguing about what someone said about an article someone else wrote.
Throw him in the brig? You gotta be kidding. For not showing up for weekend service?
Like I said maybe in 5 years you all will regain control of your higher functioning.
Copyright New York Times Company Nov 3, 2000
Two Democratic senators today called on Gov. George W. Bush to release his full military record to resolve doubts raised by a newspaper about whether he reported for required drills when he was in the Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973.
But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns may be unfounded. Documents reviewed by The Times showed that Mr. Bushserved in at least 9 of the 17 months in question.
Dan Bartlett, a Bush spokesman, said that Mr. Bush had fulfilled his military obligations ''or he would not have been honorably discharged.''
The senators, Daniel K. Inouye of Hawaii and Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, both Medal of Honor winners, were responding, in a telephone conference with reporters, to an article in The Boston Globe on Tuesday.
The article, citing military records for Mr. Bush, raised questions about whether Mr. Bush performed any duty from April 1972 until September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.
A review by The Times showed that after a seven-month gap, he appeared for duty in late November 1972 at least through July 1973.
Mr. Bush was assigned to the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston, from November 1969, last flying there on April 16, 1972.
In a report dated May 26, 1972, his commander, Maj. William D. Harris Jr., said Mr. Bush had ''recently accepted the position as campaign manager for a candidate for the United States Senate.''
Mr. Bush went to work for Winton M. Blount a few days after Mr. Blount won the Republican primary in Alabama on May 2, 1972.
From that time until after the election that November, Mr. Bush did not appear for duty, even after being told to report for training with an Alabama unit in October and November.
Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush had been too busy with the campaign to report in those months but made up the time later.
On Sept. 5, 1972, Mr. Bush asked his Texas Air National Guard superiors for assignment to the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery ''for the months of September, October and November.''
Capt. Kenneth K. Lott, chief of the personnel branch of the 187th Tactical Recon Group, told the Texas commanders that training in September had already occurred but that more training was scheduled for Oct. 7 and 8 and Nov. 4 and 5. But Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush did not serve on those dates because he was involved in the Senate campaign, but he made up those dates later.
Colonel Turnipseed, who retired as a general, said in an interview that regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter.
Mr. Bartlett pointed to a document in Mr. Bush's military records that showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. 29 and for eight days ending Dec. 14, 1972, and, after he moved back to Houston, on dates in January, April and May.
The May dates correlated with orders sent to Mr. Bush at his Houston apartment on April 23, 1973, in which Sgt. Billy B. Lamar told Mr. Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10.
Another document showed that Mr. Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973, a period of time questioned by The Globe.
New York Times._(Late Edition (East Coast))._New York, N.Y.:_Nov 3, 2000.__pg._A.27
Copyright The Washington Post Company Nov 3, 2000
Two high-profile surrogates for Vice President Gore, in an 11th- hour attempt to exploit a dormant issue, yesterday castigated George W. Bush over allegations that he did not fulfill some of his National Guard duties in the 1970s.
Democratic Sens. Bob Kerrey (Neb.) and Daniel Inouye (Hawaii), both Medal of Honor winners, were drafted to attack Bush on a 27- year-old controversy that the Gore campaign has avoided mentioning until now. They spoke by phone to a veterans rally in Nashville led by Sen. Max Cleland (D-Ga.), a decorated Vietnam veteran. Reporters were invited to listen by conference call.
Bush says he fulfilled all his obligations as a pilot in the Air National Guard, but he has had difficulty rebutting charges that he played hooky for a year.
"Where were you, Governor Bush?" Inouye asked. "What about your commitment? What would you do as commander in chief if someone in the Guard or service did the same thing?"
Kerrey questioned how Bush immediately got into the Guard "even though there were 500 people ahead of him" at a time when "350 Americans were dying every single week in Vietnam." Kerrey has been drawing a sharp contrast with Gore, who served in Vietnam.
Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer called the attacks "the final throes of a campaign that has now lost any semblance of decency. The governor, of course, was honorably discharged, and these are inventions and fabrications. All the questions have been answered."
But Gore spokesman Mark Fabiani said the senators "seem to have raised some very important questions . . . that deserve an answer."
Bush signed up with the Texas National Guard for six years in May 1968, which allowed him to avoid the Vietnam draft. He became an F- 102 pilot in 1970 but made his last flight in April 1972 before moving to Alabama to work on a GOP Senate campaign. The dispute centers on what he did in the Guard between that point and September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.
Bush campaign officials say their evidence shows that he did his duty in 1972-73, when he worked for six months on the Senate race in Alabama and then returned to his home base outside Houston. But other documents in his Guard record contradict that claim, and critics who have examined that record contend that he also skimped on his obligations in 1973-74. It is safe to say that Bush did very light duty in his last two years in the Guard and that his superiors made it easy for him.
The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now- retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load, telling him to apply to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala.
Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the 9921st, an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures on first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try. . . . It was the least participation of any type of unit." But Air Force Reserve officials rejected the assignment, saying Bush had two more years of military obligations and was ineligible for a reserve squadron that had nothing to do with flying airplanes. Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett said Bush didn't know that when he applied.
Bush had been notified that he needed to take his annual flying physical by his 26th birthday in July 1972, but the move to Alabama made that unnecessary. He had been trained to fly F-102 fighter- interceptors, and none of the units in Alabama had those planes. He could have taken the physical to preserve his pilot's status but chose not to do so. "Because he wasn't flying," Bartlett said.
On Aug. 1, 1972, Bush's commander in Houston, Col. Bobby W. Hodges, ordered him grounded for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination." Some critics say this should have triggered a formal board of inquiry, but Hodges said in an interview that this was unnecessary because Bush accepted the penalty and knew "he couldn't fly again until he takes a physical."
"It happens all the time," Hodges said of the grounding. "That is normal when a Guardsman is out of state or out of the country."
In September, Bush was assigned to another Alabama unit, the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group. Since "Lieutenant Bush will not be able to satisfy his flight requirements with our group," the unit told him to report for "equivalent training"--such as debriefing pilots--on the weekends of Oct. 7-8 and Nov. 4-5, 1972.
There is no evidence in his record that he showed up on either weekend. Friends on the Alabama campaign say he told them of having to do Guard duty, but the retired general who commanded the 187th, William Turnipseed, and his personnel chief, Kenneth K. Lott, say they do not remember Bush ever reporting.
The Bush campaign points to a torn piece of paper in his Guard records, a statement of points Bush apparently earned in 1972-73, although most of the dates andBush's name except for the "W" have been torn off.
According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with 56 points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush's annual effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report," May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973.
Hodges also said he did not see Bush at the Texas base again after Bush left for Montgomery. "If I had been there on the day[s] he came out, I would have seen him," Hodges said.
The Washington Post._Washington, D.C.:_Nov 3, 2000.__pg._A.22
NATIONAL DESK | November 3, 2000, Friday
THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: MILITARY SERVICE; Bush's Guard Attendance Is Questioned and Defended
By JO THOMAS (NYT) 657 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 27 , Column 5
ABSTRACT - Democratic senators Daniel K Inouye and Bob Kerrey call on Gov George W Bush to release full military record to clear up doubts raised by Boston Globe about whether he reported for required drills while member of Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973; review by New York Times shows concerns may be unfounded; Bush spokesman says he fulfilled all military obligations or would not have received honorable discharge (M)
Holy ****ing shit on a stick he may not have shown up for drills AWOL DESERTER!!!! MOORE IS RIGHT
It wasn't one fricking weekend... you're like a skipping record... he was to report in Alabama for duty while he worked for the Senate campaign... and he didn't he blew it off...
but to you... hey it's no big deal...he gets out of going to vietnam... and parties on the campaign circuit. Shirking your responsibilities is ok if everyone ignores it.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
10 months.
It wasn't one fricking weekend... you're like a skipping record...
I said "weekend service" not "one weekend" of service. Maybe in 5 years you can think again. Words wont be so hard for you.
Why show up on weekends... that's when you PARTAAAAY!
from Amercain Dynasty... over at TBOGG
The second intriguing discovery, brought to light in 2000, was that George W. had interrupted the fulfillment of his Air National Guard obligations for almost a year, beginning in May 1972. One reason, journalists suggested, might have been to avoid taking a required air force physical examination that was subject to random drug testing. Senior officers seem to have covered for him; he was not discharged or drafted, as he might have been. Questions have been raised about Bush aides allegedly tampering with the air force files. The substance of the events is not in doubt.
Neither episode proved there had been any cocaine-related arrest, and the exculpatory explanation accepted by the press for George W.'s voluntary service at PULL, the Houston inner-city group, was that George H.W. Bush himself had arranged it after his eldest son had turned up one night after driving while intoxicated. Further pursuit of this issue by the major media was negligible, although pointed coverage did run in the Sunday Times of London. Among U.S. newspapers, the closest attention came in the Boston Globe of May 23, 2000:
Still, the puzzling gap in Bush's military service is likely to heighten speculation about the conspicuous underachievement that marked the period between his 1968 graduation from Yale University and his 1973 entry into Harvard Business School. It is speculation that Bush has helped to fuel: For example, he refused for months last year to say whether he had ever used illegal drugs. Subsequently, however, Bush amended his stance, saying that he had not done so since 1974.
Oh and ... from Orcinus
Can anyone name any veteran who has been a major candidate for the presidency in the past half-century who has not released his military records?
This list, it must be remembered, includes John McCain, Robert Dole, George H.W. Bush, Gerald Ford, Barry Goldwater, and Dwight D. Eisenhower. Not to mention John Kerry, Wesley Clark, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, George McGovern, Lyndon Baines Johnson, John F. Kennedy, and Harry Truman.
The answer, as near as I can determine: One. George W. Bush.
There is no evidence in his record that he showed up on either weekend. Friends on the Alabama campaign say he told them of having to do Guard duty, but the retired general who commanded the 187th, William Turnipseed, and his personnel chief, Kenneth K. Lott, say they do not remember Bush ever reporting.
The Bush campaign points to a torn piece of paper in his Guard records, a statement of points Bush apparently earned in 1972-73, although most of the dates andBush's name except for the "W" have been torn off.
According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with 56 points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush's annual effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report," May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973.
The difference between these two stories is amazing.
Originally posted by Scott
For not showing up for weekend service?
I've heard a year, 8 months and now 10 months. Either way it's more than a weekend and, um, ergo you're a bigger liar than Michael Moore.
To anyone remotely concerned, if Bush was really gone 10 months would you consider that AWOL? Wrong? Unworthy of becoming Commander in Chief? Personally I think that if it's correct the guy should have to fess up to it.
But with the NYT article posted above we're back to where we started. Moore is a liar and this was put to rest back in 2000. I win again.
Originally posted by Scott
Weekend service means you work during the week and show up for service on the weekend. Which I assume Bush was on. Don't most guard members work regular jobs and show up on the weekend?
But with the NYT article posted above we're back to where we started. Moore is a liar and this was put to rest back in 2000. I win again.
By all means, feel free to ignore the WaPo's actual discussion of those "documents," as well as its description of them and their context.
I win.
If his record was so splendid why doesn't he release it?
The NYT article doesn't PROVE anything...
Bush is a liar... can we believe his account of events?
I dunno... stand him up against Clark or Kerry and he doesn't look all that heroic. Go ahead... call them unpatriotic... I dare ya.
Originally posted by Scott
Weekend service means you work during the week and show up for service on the weekend. Which I assume Bush was on. Don't most guard members work regular jobs and show up on the weekend?
Yes, but he didn't show up on weekdays or weekends for approximately a year. That means he didn't make up missed time in the same quarter. That means apparently he went AWOL.
True or not, how else would you define this scenario?