The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
I've flipped my positions on a few subjects. Oh, and there are some young impressionable people around here who haven't been politically identified as of yet.
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!
they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology
My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .
how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .
It all is very disheartening . . .
Take heart Pfflam.
What you're seeing is the last gasp of the Bush years ( I hope but I'm pretty positive about this ).
They're desperate now as the election grows closer and as more and more ( I could have said Moore and made a pun )stuff comes out.
Just stand firm. It'll only get worse as Nov. draws near.
However it could be soon after that it will be unfashionable to align yourself with Bush. People don't exactly look at Nixon in a positive ( hindsight ) light.
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!
they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology
My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .
how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .
It all is very disheartening . . .
I feel the same way. Democrats are blind to the fact that their party is no different than the Republicans. Without Democratic support, Republicans would not have passed: resolution to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, the patriot act, "partial-birth" abortion ban, hundreds of right-wing appointments and numerous other things.
I feel the same way. Democrats are blind to the fact that their party is no different than the Republicans. Without Democratic support, Republicans would have passed: resolution to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, the patriot act, "partial-birth" abortion ban, hundreds of right-wing appointments and numerous other things.
and yet you seem to me to be exhibit A of the lefty-identified individual, who will not listen to reason in the face of potentially calamitous outcome in November.
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!
This is true a lot of the time, but it is still possible to make a reasonable, reasoned argument to an intelligent person and at least hope that he or she will think about what you have said.
The problem with partisan politics is that all too often people choose a side and argue along those lines even if they have not given deep personal thought to a particular issue. It's an easy trap to fall into, because it allows you to use your brain to argue a point (fun, easy to get caught up in) but saves you having to make decisions about how you really feel on each issue as it stands alone (tough, calls for frequent introspection and possible questioning of other values).
The only people I truly despair of are those who obviously NEVER listen to anything that might fall outside their own carefully constructed worldview.
and yet you seem to me to be exhibit A of the lefty-identified individual, who will not listen to reason in the face of potentially calamitous outcome in November.
The outcome will be calamitous with either Bush or Kerry. For example, Clinton was far worse than H.W. Bush when it came to his war on mothers, NAFTA/WTO and budget cutting with social programs.
F911 vs. Passion of the Christ...similarities abound in the fanatiscm exhibited for either movie. \
Maybe the big Summer Blockbuster theme for this year is Attack of the Cult Followings?
When's the next Star Wars come out, anyway? We really could have used it to tone things down in movieland this year.
I've seen both of those two offerings. Moore's movie provides a rare. left leaning spin to a selection of current affairs, in stark contrast to 95% of the remainder of the media which is controlled by conservative white men in suits, answering to big advertising also controlled by conservative white men in suits.That is a fact of life, no conspiracy needed. Sure, F-911 is a breath of different air, although not necessarily fresh, but for some us including myself, a very welcome one. Overall, however, its like taking on a hurricane with a hairdryer.
The Passion of the Christ on the other hand, a spin on the crucifixion, is a different beast. Passion is blatant and shameless spiritual blackmail via grossly exaggerated physical violence towards one man, two thousand years ago, with very little reference, wildly out of context to the historical record, in order to evangelize and win converts; F911 is a lightweight, easy to watch, occasionally humorous effort, dealing with current, verifiable facts and incidents to evangelize and win converts,
Maybe, but now the polarities have been set, sides drawn (in children's thick markers, but drawn nonetheless):
It is now:
Moore vs Christ
Evil vs Good
Moore vs Christ? Huh? Michael Moore may look like a fat slob and has enraged some folk in breaking the unwritten rules by not conforming with public's expectation of the classic, handsome, cleancut, sanitized star requisite in todays film entertainment business. But EVIL? If Christ was all good, then is your evaluation of Moore all evil?.
For a simplistic, but relevant exercise, compare the BushCorp philosophy to that of the MooreCorp and you tell me who is more "Christ like"? Who is all about elitism, unparalleled greed, arbitrary hatred towards certain minorities, waging unnecessary war, killing thousands of innocents, authorizing torture, imposition of Orwellian Newspeak, anti-responsible environmental stewardship, and the wholesale promotion of fear. Moore, at his worst is an opportunist who is enjoying his 15 minute allotment, using his skills in whatever way he can to counter the most dangerous, powerful and manipulative regime for over half a century.
To put it another way. I don't know what Mr Moore's personal spirituality is...he may be an atheist for all I know, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Most atheists I know are the most moral and decent people I have ever met). But Bush has publicly worn his "Christianity" badge on his chest for a number of years, and I cannot name a single aspect of George W. Bush's political message that has anything in common with the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are 180º in opposition.
Moore vs Christ? Huh? Michael Moore may look like a fat slob and has enraged some folk in breaking the unwritten rules by not conforming with public's expectation of the classic, handsome, cleancut, sanitized star requisite in todays film entertainment business. But EVIL? If Christ was all good, then is your evaluation of Moore all evil?.
For a simplistic, but relevant exercise, compare the BushCorp philosophy to that of the MooreCorp and you tell me who is more "Christ like"? Who is all about elitism, unparalleled greed, arbitrary hatred towards certain minorities, waging unnecessary war, killing thousands of innocents, authorizing torture, imposition of Orwellian Newspeak, anti-responsible environmental stewardship, and the wholesale promotion of fear. Moore, at his worst is an opportunist who is enjoying his 15 minute allotment, using his skills in whatever way he can to counter the most dangerous, powerful and manipulative regime for over half a century.
To put it another way. I don't know what Mr Moore's personal spirituality is...he may be an atheist for all I know, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Most atheists I know are the most moral and decent people I have ever met). But Bush has publicly worn his "Christianity" badge on his chest for a number of years, and I cannot name a single aspect of George W. Bush's political message that has anything in common with the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are 180º in opposition.
Take is easy there fella . . .
I am pointing out the way in which the rhetoric is setting up a dichotomy . . .
Once these positions are set down they will only become increasingly rote and ossified.
'F-911 is to the Left what Passion was to the Right' - so says the rhetoric . . .
a false dichotomy, or rather, merely slightly true.
But the manner in which it is filling the debate, it will increasingly become accepted truth . . . and with that, you have the implied perception that a film that glorifies Jesus is in natural Opposition to a film critiquing the President . . . the catagories are being drawn and they fall into a simple Good/Bad; Black/White etc . .
It simply remains, once the rhetorical catagories are set and behind the scenes, to choose a side
Well it appears Fahrenheit's chances of being number one this week are slim and none. Spiderman 2 opened with 40 million in one night. So that is only 5 million more in one night than Fahrenheit has earned total so far.
differance, Art was entertaining, and funny, he had a fun, entertaining product, he made freaks be freaks and regular people laugh at him.
Moore on the other hand, is just hate mongering, and for some reason the Dems love it.
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.
They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.
They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.
Well it appears Fahrenheit's chances of being number one this week are slim and none. Spiderman 2 opened with 40 million in one night. So that is only 5 million more in one night than Fahrenheit has earned total so far.
Trumpt, you have some unrealistically high expectations of Fahrenheit yes? Look at the competition: Spiderman is a blockbuster megabudget universally rated feature movie taken from an established famous story, with big name stars, presented by mega corp Sony Entertainment, and playing in a near record 4,152 theaters, and practically every kid in the nation will be watching it over the next couple of weeks. On the other hand, F-911 is a documentary. for crying out loud, it is R-rated, with a subject matter that most kids are not drawn to, the budget is relatively tiny in comparison, (I believe it was edited in Final Cut Pro on a Macintosh!), it is playing in 832 theaters (that is a mere 20% of the theaters Spiderman opened in), and there isno real star attraction, apart from Moore himself, who is neither a sex symbol (!!!!) nor an actor, and the other known personalities are a bunch of 2nd rate crooks.
So, all in all, I reckon Michael Moore's effort is pretty damned good!
He came from nowhere, at first he didn't know one end of a camera from the other, and he got stuck into his career and made his own wealth, all off his own initiative, in sharp contrast to the man he is criticizing in F-911, the silver-spooned, rich-from-birth, daddy's boy of a president, who has failed in every business venture he got into. I have always understood that conservatives value hard work, building up businesses, turning a profit, aka the "American Dream" concept. Mr Moore's effort looks most representative of that noble ideal....isn't it a little duplicitous that conservatives are slamming him for it?
Comments
Maybe the big Summer Blockbuster theme for this year is Attack of the Cult Followings?
When's the next Star Wars come out, anyway? We really could have used it to tone things down in movieland this year.
Originally posted by pfflam
You know what?
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
I've flipped my positions on a few subjects. Oh, and there are some young impressionable people around here who haven't been politically identified as of yet.
Keep the faith!
Originally posted by pfflam
You know what?
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!
they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology
My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .
how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .
It all is very disheartening . . .
Take heart Pfflam.
What you're seeing is the last gasp of the Bush years ( I hope but I'm pretty positive about this ).
They're desperate now as the election grows closer and as more and more ( I could have said Moore and made a pun )stuff comes out.
Just stand firm. It'll only get worse as Nov. draws near.
However it could be soon after that it will be unfashionable to align yourself with Bush. People don't exactly look at Nixon in a positive ( hindsight ) light.
Originally posted by pfflam
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!
they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology
My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .
how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .
It all is very disheartening . . .
I feel the same way. Democrats are blind to the fact that their party is no different than the Republicans. Without Democratic support, Republicans would not have passed: resolution to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, the patriot act, "partial-birth" abortion ban, hundreds of right-wing appointments and numerous other things.
www.votenader.org
Originally posted by Existence
I feel the same way. Democrats are blind to the fact that their party is no different than the Republicans. Without Democratic support, Republicans would have passed: resolution to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, the patriot act, "partial-birth" abortion ban, hundreds of right-wing appointments and numerous other things.
www.votenader.org
and yet you seem to me to be exhibit A of the lefty-identified individual, who will not listen to reason in the face of potentially calamitous outcome in November.
Originally posted by pfflam
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!
This is true a lot of the time, but it is still possible to make a reasonable, reasoned argument to an intelligent person and at least hope that he or she will think about what you have said.
The problem with partisan politics is that all too often people choose a side and argue along those lines even if they have not given deep personal thought to a particular issue. It's an easy trap to fall into, because it allows you to use your brain to argue a point (fun, easy to get caught up in) but saves you having to make decisions about how you really feel on each issue as it stands alone (tough, calls for frequent introspection and possible questioning of other values).
The only people I truly despair of are those who obviously NEVER listen to anything that might fall outside their own carefully constructed worldview.
Originally posted by pfflam
and yet you seem to me to be exhibit A of the lefty-identified individual, who will not listen to reason in the face of potentially calamitous outcome in November.
The outcome will be calamitous with either Bush or Kerry. For example, Clinton was far worse than H.W. Bush when it came to his war on mothers, NAFTA/WTO and budget cutting with social programs.
You obviously don't get it.
Liberal use of this phrase germinates rational, even-toned discussion. Case in point: this thread.
Originally posted by jimmac People don't exactly look at Nixon in a positive ( hindsight ) light.
More schools integrated under him, introduced the EPA, put a man on the moon, ended the Vietnam War (quagmire) that Kennedy and Johnson had going.
But the only thing folks remember is a bunch of tapes...
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
More schools integrated under him, introduced the EPA, put a man on the moon, ended the Vietnam War (quagmire) that Kennedy and Johnson had going.
But the only thing folks remember is a bunch of tapes...
And that little bit about him ordering the illegal killing of 150,000 Cambodians. But that doesn't matter since those are brown people. You're right.
Originally posted by Randycat99
F911 vs. Passion of the Christ...similarities abound in the fanatiscm exhibited for either movie.
Maybe the big Summer Blockbuster theme for this year is Attack of the Cult Followings?
When's the next Star Wars come out, anyway? We really could have used it to tone things down in movieland this year.
I've seen both of those two offerings. Moore's movie provides a rare. left leaning spin to a selection of current affairs, in stark contrast to 95% of the remainder of the media which is controlled by conservative white men in suits, answering to big advertising also controlled by conservative white men in suits.That is a fact of life, no conspiracy needed. Sure, F-911 is a breath of different air, although not necessarily fresh, but for some us including myself, a very welcome one. Overall, however, its like taking on a hurricane with a hairdryer.
The Passion of the Christ on the other hand, a spin on the crucifixion, is a different beast. Passion is blatant and shameless spiritual blackmail via grossly exaggerated physical violence towards one man, two thousand years ago, with very little reference, wildly out of context to the historical record, in order to evangelize and win converts; F911 is a lightweight, easy to watch, occasionally humorous effort, dealing with current, verifiable facts and incidents to evangelize and win converts,
It is now:
Moore vs Christ
Evil vs Good
Originally posted by pfflam
Maybe, but now the polarities have been set, sides drawn (in children's thick markers, but drawn nonetheless):
It is now:
Moore vs Christ
Evil vs Good
Moore vs Christ? Huh? Michael Moore may look like a fat slob and has enraged some folk in breaking the unwritten rules by not conforming with public's expectation of the classic, handsome, cleancut, sanitized star requisite in todays film entertainment business. But EVIL? If Christ was all good, then is your evaluation of Moore all evil?.
For a simplistic, but relevant exercise, compare the BushCorp philosophy to that of the MooreCorp and you tell me who is more "Christ like"? Who is all about elitism, unparalleled greed, arbitrary hatred towards certain minorities, waging unnecessary war, killing thousands of innocents, authorizing torture, imposition of Orwellian Newspeak, anti-responsible environmental stewardship, and the wholesale promotion of fear. Moore, at his worst is an opportunist who is enjoying his 15 minute allotment, using his skills in whatever way he can to counter the most dangerous, powerful and manipulative regime for over half a century.
To put it another way. I don't know what Mr Moore's personal spirituality is...he may be an atheist for all I know, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Most atheists I know are the most moral and decent people I have ever met). But Bush has publicly worn his "Christianity" badge on his chest for a number of years, and I cannot name a single aspect of George W. Bush's political message that has anything in common with the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are 180º in opposition.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Moore vs Christ? Huh? Michael Moore may look like a fat slob and has enraged some folk in breaking the unwritten rules by not conforming with public's expectation of the classic, handsome, cleancut, sanitized star requisite in todays film entertainment business. But EVIL? If Christ was all good, then is your evaluation of Moore all evil?.
For a simplistic, but relevant exercise, compare the BushCorp philosophy to that of the MooreCorp and you tell me who is more "Christ like"? Who is all about elitism, unparalleled greed, arbitrary hatred towards certain minorities, waging unnecessary war, killing thousands of innocents, authorizing torture, imposition of Orwellian Newspeak, anti-responsible environmental stewardship, and the wholesale promotion of fear. Moore, at his worst is an opportunist who is enjoying his 15 minute allotment, using his skills in whatever way he can to counter the most dangerous, powerful and manipulative regime for over half a century.
To put it another way. I don't know what Mr Moore's personal spirituality is...he may be an atheist for all I know, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Most atheists I know are the most moral and decent people I have ever met). But Bush has publicly worn his "Christianity" badge on his chest for a number of years, and I cannot name a single aspect of George W. Bush's political message that has anything in common with the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are 180º in opposition.
Take is easy there fella . . .
I am pointing out the way in which the rhetoric is setting up a dichotomy . . .
Once these positions are set down they will only become increasingly rote and ossified.
'F-911 is to the Left what Passion was to the Right' - so says the rhetoric . . .
a false dichotomy, or rather, merely slightly true.
But the manner in which it is filling the debate, it will increasingly become accepted truth . . . and with that, you have the implied perception that a film that glorifies Jesus is in natural Opposition to a film critiquing the President . . . the catagories are being drawn and they fall into a simple Good/Bad; Black/White etc . .
It simply remains, once the rhetorical catagories are set and behind the scenes, to choose a side
Bye bye Mickey
Nick
He sees "things".
Originally posted by dmz
Moore is simply the left's Art Bell.
He sees "things".
differance, Art was entertaining, and funny, he had a fun, entertaining product, he made freaks be freaks and regular people laugh at him.
Moore on the other hand, is just hate mongering, and for some reason the Dems love it.
Originally posted by a_greer
differance, Art was entertaining, and funny, he had a fun, entertaining product, he made freaks be freaks and regular people laugh at him.
Moore on the other hand, is just hate mongering, and for some reason the Dems love it.
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.
They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.
Originally posted by addabox
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.
They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.
Originally posted by trumptman
Well it appears Fahrenheit's chances of being number one this week are slim and none. Spiderman 2 opened with 40 million in one night. So that is only 5 million more in one night than Fahrenheit has earned total so far.
Bye bye Mickey
Nick
Trumpt, you have some unrealistically high expectations of Fahrenheit yes? Look at the competition: Spiderman is a blockbuster megabudget universally rated feature movie taken from an established famous story, with big name stars, presented by mega corp Sony Entertainment, and playing in a near record 4,152 theaters, and practically every kid in the nation will be watching it over the next couple of weeks. On the other hand, F-911 is a documentary. for crying out loud, it is R-rated, with a subject matter that most kids are not drawn to, the budget is relatively tiny in comparison, (I believe it was edited in Final Cut Pro on a Macintosh!), it is playing in 832 theaters (that is a mere 20% of the theaters Spiderman opened in), and there isno real star attraction, apart from Moore himself, who is neither a sex symbol (!!!!) nor an actor, and the other known personalities are a bunch of 2nd rate crooks.
So, all in all, I reckon Michael Moore's effort is pretty damned good!
He came from nowhere, at first he didn't know one end of a camera from the other, and he got stuck into his career and made his own wealth, all off his own initiative, in sharp contrast to the man he is criticizing in F-911, the silver-spooned, rich-from-birth, daddy's boy of a president, who has failed in every business venture he got into. I have always understood that conservatives value hard work, building up businesses, turning a profit, aka the "American Dream" concept. Mr Moore's effort looks most representative of that noble ideal....isn't it a little duplicitous that conservatives are slamming him for it?