Yeah, dead pixels aren't a big deal really -- you only see the dead pixel in certain situations I have one, but it's only visible when there's all black that area, which isn't that often. The LCD is a miraculous technological achievement that hangs in a delicate, yet stable chemical balance. A few stuck pixels shouldn't ruin your experience at all -- remember you're getting a display that will last much, much longer than a CRT and gives you none of their ergonomic drawbacks because an LCD's matrix restabilizes every time you power it on - it loses no integrity. Now, see how trivial a dead pixel is?
RodUK, I have to disagree with you in regard to them not opening up the box and checking for dead pixels. We do the very same thing in a manner of speaking before we buy a new car. Would you buy a car that one cylinder never worked in and no matter how much you wanted to repair it you could do nothing? Truth is, it's our right as a consumer to check these things before we make such a purchase which is why I have such a hard time purchasing online. When you drive a new vehicle off the lot you expect NOTHING to be wrong with it. Same goes with a laptop LCD screen. I'm not interested in what a manufacturer sees as acceptable in regard to dead pixels and I'm happy to see that there aren't that many horror stories on here yet. The truth is, it's my $3000 and Apple wants it. If they want the cash, I want a perfect laptop. I also like madmax559's idea about calling macwarehouse and having them scope it for dead pixels before shipping. Then it comes down to an integrity issue. Are the technicians actually going to be honest. I know I would, but there are a lot of dishonest people out there. I have a feeling that I'll just have to make the 8 hour drive to Mall of America and walk into the store and see them myself before I purchase one. I'm not buying a car with a bent frame and I'm not buying a laptop that has dead pixels. The manufacturers ought to take more pride in their work than to even send a screen that is flawed. Of course if people feel that one or two bad pixels is ok, then that's their choice. I know when I bought my iBook at CompUSA they opened the box and let me turn it on before I laid down the cash. Mine had zero dead pixels. The way it ought to be. But thanks to those that replied. Sorry to hear about your dead pixel issues. Hopefully you'll have better luck in the future. Any news on the backlit keyboards on the 15.4?
madmax559, once again I thank you for your assistance in this matter. I'm personally waiting for the 15.4 to come out and I'm hoping it'll have a backlit keyboard as I'm often in situations (flights) where this would be extremely valuable. Thanks alot for the idea about macwarehouse.
Same here!!! I gotta sell my loaded 667 VGA TiBook now. The Journalism department at my university was eyeing my powerbook, so maybe I can sell it to them for top dollar seeing as they have enough money to go around...bluetooth, Airport Extreme, and backlit keyboard HERE I COME...too bad it doesnt have a Radeon 9000 card in it though.
<strong>Same here!!! I gotta sell my loaded 667 VGA TiBook now. The Journalism department at my university was eyeing my powerbook, so maybe I can sell it to them for top dollar seeing as they have enough money to go around...bluetooth, Airport Extreme, and backlit keyboard HERE I COME...too bad it doesnt have a Radeon 9000 card in it though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I seem to agree, but is it that much of a difference between the Radion 9000 and the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go ? Does anyone know more about this ?
<strong>RodUK, I have to disagree with you in regard to them not opening up the box and checking for dead pixels. We do the very same thing in a manner of speaking before we buy a new car. Would you buy a car that one cylinder never worked in and no matter how much you wanted to repair it you could do nothing? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess I'd equate a dead pixel to a small blemish in the windscreen or a tiny tear in the upholstery rather than a faulty cylinder. The former makes no difference when going from A to B, the latter does. Anyway, I wish you all the best if you do decide to go with the new 15.4 inch PowerBook. Hopefully Apple won't keep you waiting too long.
I seem to agree, but is it that much of a difference between the Radion 9000 and the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go ? Does anyone know more about this ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
With the M9000, you will see up to a 25% increase in framerates in current games from the 440.
However, the concern is that the 440 does not have vertex or pixel shaders and it only has 2 texture units (it's really just a misleadingly named Geforce2 part), while the M9000 has 6 texture units and programmable shaders. In non-geek talk, this means the M9000 will run future games that utilize these features (e.g. Doom 3 and its engine derivatives) whereas the 440 either won't, or will only if you turn off graphics options. Which means the current TiBook will be able to run Doom 3 with all graphics options on (albeit at 30 fps or less) while the Albooks with Nvidia 4xx Go processors will be stuck running a less pretty and possibly slower version.
I understand why Apple went with Nvidia's offerings in the new Albooks: they're cheaper, they offer comparable performance in today's games, and since the bottleneck in many cases will be CPU/bus performance, it makes the choice between the two a moot point - c'mon, we're talking about laptops here (and especially if you don't care about games).
Apple has bet on Nvidia and their "the way it's meant to be played" branding, but anyone following Nvidia's current woes may be wondering if we're watching a rerun of the 3dfx story: delayed introduction of their next generation chipset (Geforce FX) which has issues requiring a SECOND card bay just to cool it (the 3dfx card required its own power supply), meanwhile ATI is waiting in the wings with its next generation chip which will presumably smoke the Geforce FX, etc, etc, etc.
No way we're seeing a mobile Geforce FX soon, and the true mobile Geforce4 part, the 4200 Go, is a desktop part with no thought toward power management, so it sucks juice like a hungry baby. I hope Apple comes to its senses and backs the right horse again in ATI.
Apple has bet on Nvidia and their "the way it's meant to be played" branding, but anyone following Nvidia's current woes may be wondering if we're watching a rerun of the 3dfx story: delayed introduction of their next generation chipset (Geforce FX) which has issues requiring a SECOND card bay just to cool it (the 3dfx card required its own power supply)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, nVIDIA did 3dfx one better: The GeForce FX requires the neighboring PCI slot and external power (it draws over 70W!). And it's so loud that even the performance mavens at Tom's Hardware considered the noise a deal-breaker.
I don't understand why Apple went with the nVIDIA parts either, given the RADEON 9000 Mobility. I did notice, however, that the graphics chipsets in the new PowerBooks are on daughtercards, so Apple are clearly hedging their bets: They can keep an ATi-compatible daughtercard and an nVIDIA-compatible daughtercard around and swap them as appropriate. They could even theoretically offer different graphics options as BTO.
daughtercards are the way to go, IMHO. NOT because anyone could/wopuld/should try to get aftermarket bits, but because it would allow Apple to more quickly update their offerings and/or switch suppliers if/when issues arise, "We like to have choices."
Reading some performance reviews it would appear that the GF4 440go is not really inferior to the r9000 when it comes to OpenGL. Even the 420go in the PB12 makes a good accounting of itself compared to the Ti867 (32MB R9000).
Sorry to break the flow, but I just wanted to return to the stuck pixel thing again.
First, have a look at <a href="http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=22194"; target="_blank">this Knowledge Base article</a>: Apple accepts that LCDs aren't perfect, and in fact there's an industry standard for an acceptable number of stuck pixels:
[quote] 15 total dot defects or 10 stuck full pixels
10 stuck red sub-pixels
4 stuck green sub-pixels (green is most visible)
10 stuck blue sub-pixels
No more than two "adjacent" pixels may be stuck "Adjacent" isÂ*defined as less than 2.5mm edge to edge
No more than two pairs of two-adjacent stuck pixels per display
To locate defective pixels, the unit should be viewed under normal operating conditions and in normal operating mode at a supported resolution and refresh rate, from a distance of approximately 50cm (16 in.). <hr></blockquote>
It's a limitation of the technology, I'm afraid, and I know of one UK retailer that explicity states on their receipts something to the effect that a certain number of stuckies is not considered a defect.
Out of roughly 800 thousand pixels (on a 1024x768 display), 2 dead ones isn't bad: I can think of engineering applications with tolerances whole order of magnitude greater.
Plenty of the better LCD brands will reject a display that has two or more stuck pixels. Formac and other's do, no other conditions. Given that Apple machines are quite expensive, they ought to have better QA on their LCD's. 10 defective pixels is just way too much, more than 2, anywhere on the display, ought to be enough for Apple to offer a repair/replacement.
Isn't that Knowledge Base article just plain creepy? I think it's great when manufacturers see that people want a product without defects and simply refuse to allow what I term to be "bad screens" into their computers in the first place. It's like going and buying an apple (the fruit, not the computer, lol) and you pick up the first one and in has a bruise you can see. You put it down. You pick up another one and it has three bruises. You put it back down. You automatically look for the ones in the best shape. The ones without bruises at all. That's the way I think it ought to be with the LCD's. I do understand what you're saying about the huge amount of pixels and therefore it stands to reason that one or two could be messed up. But that article said 15! Are those people smoking crack? There's no way any self respecting Apple owner would walk out of a store knowing in advance that 14 pixels would never work and according to Apple, they are cool with that. I have to be honest here and say that I'm not the type to tolerate 1 bad pixel, let alone 14. I think Apple time and time again sets the standard for every other computer manufacturer to follow. Apple is the one company people wonder what they will come out with next. Apple ought to take more pride in itself than allowing such blemishes to be allowed on the manufacturing line at all. Let Dell have them. Send them over to HP. As for Apple, being the leader in design means you act like it. But to be honest, there are only a few people who claim to have issues at all with their pixels, so perhaps there's only a very small percentage that actually do slip through the cracks of a quality control program. Anyone know of stats that tally the amount of bad screens manufacturers use? Just curious.
On another note, where can stats on the different video cards in Power Books be found with credible critiques? Thank you all for your help and I hope you all are able to hold Power Books of your own in the near future - if you don't already!
By the way, I found this sight which used Win-blows computers, but had the two cards that Apple also uses in the Power Books. Hopefully this info will help you all out...provided that you were actually looking for it.
All I know about displays, bad pixels and DELL is that DELL came in here once and replaced a 17" with ONE, just ONE, and only ONE dead pixel on it. I can just imagine the attitude Apple would give you if you called them up to rightly complain about a defective display.
The powerbook 15" would make sense to be the fastest in the portable line, for 1 reason:
The 17" and 12" models have their unique sizes selling them, so the 15" has to have something other than compactness/LCD size, respectively, selling it. The 15-incher will have to come out of the shadows of Lapzilla and Minibook by introducing some big new feature, like an ATA 100
drive, or dual processors,say. Otherwise, It will seem to normal. Wouln't dual G4's be nice?
Comments
Also as previously stated you may be hard pressed to find a store that will start tearing open boxes to find one that you find satisfactory.
As far as my personal experience my iBook 700 has no pixel issues whatsoever. Screen is perfect. YMMV.
i bought a ti800 powerbook with 1gbram from
macwarehouse last year ..$3400 at that time
now i called them up & spoke with the sales guy
directly & mentioned that i wanted them to open
the laptop & turn it on BEFORE it shipped to make
sure it had zero dead pixels
they did that & when i recieved the laptop it was
picture perfect.
& their service was excellent
you have the right to demand a perfect working machine.. $3k is not a small amount & you are paying for a premium product.
charging 15% restocking fee & refusing to acknowledge bad pixels is a poor/shoddy business
practice & should not be tolerated by any consumer
regardless of the manufacturer
was out of whack the purchase would be returned
..all i would have to do is file a dispute with
my credit card company.
& no i wouldnt pay the 15% restocking either.
now most online resellers will be honest about
this simply beacuse they have a rep to uphold
& in this economy they need the business...
<a href="http://mac.fryke.com/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi"; target="_blank">http://mac.fryke.com/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi</a>;
<strong>Same here!!! I gotta sell my loaded 667 VGA TiBook now. The Journalism department at my university was eyeing my powerbook, so maybe I can sell it to them for top dollar seeing as they have enough money to go around...bluetooth, Airport Extreme, and backlit keyboard HERE I COME...too bad it doesnt have a Radeon 9000 card in it though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I seem to agree, but is it that much of a difference between the Radion 9000 and the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go ? Does anyone know more about this ?
<strong>RodUK, I have to disagree with you in regard to them not opening up the box and checking for dead pixels. We do the very same thing in a manner of speaking before we buy a new car. Would you buy a car that one cylinder never worked in and no matter how much you wanted to repair it you could do nothing? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess I'd equate a dead pixel to a small blemish in the windscreen or a tiny tear in the upholstery rather than a faulty cylinder. The former makes no difference when going from A to B, the latter does. Anyway, I wish you all the best if you do decide to go with the new 15.4 inch PowerBook. Hopefully Apple won't keep you waiting too long.
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: RodUK ]</p>
<strong>
I seem to agree, but is it that much of a difference between the Radion 9000 and the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go ? Does anyone know more about this ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
With the M9000, you will see up to a 25% increase in framerates in current games from the 440.
However, the concern is that the 440 does not have vertex or pixel shaders and it only has 2 texture units (it's really just a misleadingly named Geforce2 part), while the M9000 has 6 texture units and programmable shaders. In non-geek talk, this means the M9000 will run future games that utilize these features (e.g. Doom 3 and its engine derivatives) whereas the 440 either won't, or will only if you turn off graphics options. Which means the current TiBook will be able to run Doom 3 with all graphics options on (albeit at 30 fps or less) while the Albooks with Nvidia 4xx Go processors will be stuck running a less pretty and possibly slower version.
I understand why Apple went with Nvidia's offerings in the new Albooks: they're cheaper, they offer comparable performance in today's games, and since the bottleneck in many cases will be CPU/bus performance, it makes the choice between the two a moot point - c'mon, we're talking about laptops here (and especially if you don't care about games).
Apple has bet on Nvidia and their "the way it's meant to be played" branding, but anyone following Nvidia's current woes may be wondering if we're watching a rerun of the 3dfx story: delayed introduction of their next generation chipset (Geforce FX) which has issues requiring a SECOND card bay just to cool it (the 3dfx card required its own power supply), meanwhile ATI is waiting in the wings with its next generation chip which will presumably smoke the Geforce FX, etc, etc, etc.
No way we're seeing a mobile Geforce FX soon, and the true mobile Geforce4 part, the 4200 Go, is a desktop part with no thought toward power management, so it sucks juice like a hungry baby. I hope Apple comes to its senses and backs the right horse again in ATI.
<strong>
Apple has bet on Nvidia and their "the way it's meant to be played" branding, but anyone following Nvidia's current woes may be wondering if we're watching a rerun of the 3dfx story: delayed introduction of their next generation chipset (Geforce FX) which has issues requiring a SECOND card bay just to cool it (the 3dfx card required its own power supply)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, nVIDIA did 3dfx one better: The GeForce FX requires the neighboring PCI slot and external power (it draws over 70W!). And it's so loud that even the performance mavens at Tom's Hardware considered the noise a deal-breaker.
I don't understand why Apple went with the nVIDIA parts either, given the RADEON 9000 Mobility. I did notice, however, that the graphics chipsets in the new PowerBooks are on daughtercards, so Apple are clearly hedging their bets: They can keep an ATi-compatible daughtercard and an nVIDIA-compatible daughtercard around and swap them as appropriate. They could even theoretically offer different graphics options as BTO.
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
Reading some performance reviews it would appear that the GF4 440go is not really inferior to the r9000 when it comes to OpenGL. Even the 420go in the PB12 makes a good accounting of itself compared to the Ti867 (32MB R9000).
First, have a look at <a href="http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=22194"; target="_blank">this Knowledge Base article</a>: Apple accepts that LCDs aren't perfect, and in fact there's an industry standard for an acceptable number of stuck pixels:
[quote] 15 total dot defects or 10 stuck full pixels
10 stuck red sub-pixels
4 stuck green sub-pixels (green is most visible)
10 stuck blue sub-pixels
No more than two "adjacent" pixels may be stuck "Adjacent" isÂ*defined as less than 2.5mm edge to edge
No more than two pairs of two-adjacent stuck pixels per display
To locate defective pixels, the unit should be viewed under normal operating conditions and in normal operating mode at a supported resolution and refresh rate, from a distance of approximately 50cm (16 in.). <hr></blockquote>
It's a limitation of the technology, I'm afraid, and I know of one UK retailer that explicity states on their receipts something to the effect that a certain number of stuckies is not considered a defect.
Out of roughly 800 thousand pixels (on a 1024x768 display), 2 dead ones isn't bad: I can think of engineering applications with tolerances whole order of magnitude greater.
On another note, where can stats on the different video cards in Power Books be found with credible critiques? Thank you all for your help and I hope you all are able to hold Power Books of your own in the near future - if you don't already!
<a href="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,492867,00.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,492867,00.asp</a>;
The 17" and 12" models have their unique sizes selling them, so the 15" has to have something other than compactness/LCD size, respectively, selling it. The 15-incher will have to come out of the shadows of Lapzilla and Minibook by introducing some big new feature, like an ATA 100
drive, or dual processors,say. Otherwise, It will seem to normal. Wouln't dual G4's be nice?