It's not a matter of can't, more a matter of won't.
I got the impression from the other posts that the reason you won't (use iChat) is because you can't (use MSN with it). Hence, the solution (maybe) that I posted. Like I said, I don't have time to test it right now (although I have tested Google talk and can confirm that it works and is very easy to set up).
If you have some other reason why you "won't" use the wonderful iChat, than excuuuuse me for trying to help.
I got the impression from the other posts that the reason you won't (use iChat) is because you can't (use MSN with it).
No, I DO use iChat. However, generally, the only other people I know that I can chat with using it are also on Macs using iChat and most of them also use Gizmo now so we tend not to use iChat at all. PC users in Europe tend to stick with MSN. Almost nobody uses AIM. I don't know of a single PC user with an AIM account.
So, that means I can't talk to the vast majority of IM users in Europe because there is no interoperability between AIM and MSN.
Quote:
Originally posted by meelash
Hence, the solution (maybe) that I posted. Like I said, I don't have time to test it right now (although I have tested Google talk and can confirm that it works and is very easy to set up).
Unless they've changed it recently, Google's jabber server doesn't allow you to talk to anyone that does not have a gmail account. ie. it won't talk to other jabberd servers on the net. They don't have an MSN or AIM gateway installed on their server either so you can't talk from gtalk to MSN.
Google dropped a bollock on that one, picking an open standard and then running their own isolated service with no gateways so negating the reason jabber is useful in the first place.
Plus, when people talk about MSN, they generally mean the whole chatroom, filesharing, video and audio shebang, not just text messages.
Quote:
Originally posted by meelash
If you have some other reason why you "won't" use the wonderful iChat, than excuuuuse me for trying to help.
As I said, I do. It's more that OTHER PEOPLE won't for various reasons (political distrust of anything American, features, AIM adverts or laziness) so it's mostly pointless me using it. It's about as useful as Sherlock is in Europe.
Instant Messaging is a mess. What it needs is for MSN, AIM, Yahoo, Apple and Google to all use the XMPP jabber protocols and allow people to offer jabberd servers like we do with email servers now. The centralised approach is plain stupid. Imagine if all mail had to go through hotmail or gmail and you weren't allowed to mail from one to the other! Apple and Google support jabber in varying degrees, including Apple shipping jabberd in OSX Server and supporting it in iChat, but until Microsoft in particular stops trying to protect it's ecosystem it's nothing more than a gesture. Maybe if Google sets up to beat MSN with features instead of it's minimalist gtalk client, things will change.
Imagine if all mail had to go through hotmail or gmail and you weren't allowed to mail from one to the other! Apple and Google support jabber in varying degrees, including Apple shipping jabberd in OSX Server and supporting it in iChat, but until Microsoft in particular stops trying to protect it's ecosystem it's nothing more than a gesture. Maybe if Google sets up to beat MSN with features instead of it's minimalist gtalk client, things will change.
Unless I've missed something doesn't this happen anyway? I'm trying to get hotmail & yahoo mail to play nicely with OSX Mail and it's not pretty.
This whole internet 'openness' thing was always a red rag to a bull & Apple are guilty (if a little smaller) than the rest. McD
Of course the emails are standard and the servers freely exchange them but free client access to them isn't standard so their ecosystems are still preserved. Whether the protocol incompatibility lies server to server or server to client it has the same effect to the user - restricted choice of client. I can't use iChat for all my IM and I can't use OS X Mail client to manage all my emails.
Unless it's just me who can't access them with the OSX Mail client in which case, help! (& forget the httpmail plugin, it doesn't work with my MSN accounts)
Of course the emails are standard and the servers freely exchange them but free client access to them isn't standard so their ecosystems are still preserved.
But there's nothing stopping you using another mail client and server yet still sending emails to users of that system, so their ecosystems are not still preserved. Not in the way IM is closed.
1) The rumor is that VoIP is coming to OS X10.5 in some form.
2) The dominant VoIP technology, like it or not is Skype. Personally I like.
3) Skype seem to have been inexplicably slow moving toward a video implementation of the Skype client for Mac. Perhaps because they are waiting for something.
4) Judging by my personal experience and reading the Apple forums. - iChat is lousy at going through firewalls. Skype technology has this problem solved.
5) Apple should offer a good PC<->Mac videoconferencing solution.
My conclusion...
10.5 will ship with an officially sancitioned version of the Skype client for Mac. Developed by Apple with Skype's blessing. iChat 4.0 will include the old AOL client. Jabber and Skype.
It'd be a win for Skype - bringing new customers and losing the expense of developing for the Mac platform.
It'd be a win for Apple, because iChat would finally do what it is supposed to do. As well as provide Apple users with cheap International calls etc.
Althought that would be nice it is not going to happen this way. Why? there is already a leaked skype 2 with video for mac going around the net (highly unstable, do not use).
Althought that would be nice it is not going to happen this way. Why? there is already a leaked skype 2 with video for mac going around the net (highly unstable, do not use).
As I understand it, the leaked Mac client is quite old. And despite users clamouring for a beta of 2.0 - it has not happened. In the past, Skype have been getting Mac versions out almost monthly. That has mysteriously stopped. Perhaps EBay have said, don't focus on the Mac version, save some money. But given that Skype is awash with Ebay cash - that does not make much sense.
It seems to me that Skype's mac team are waiting for something.
It's not the dominant VoIP technology, far from it. The leader is MSN.
Skype is only leading in the realm of Internet to POTS integration and even there it's days are numbered with all the telecom companies adopting SIP.
(I can't see Apple adopting MSN)
Are Skype's days numbered, perhaps, perhaps not.
Skype remains a uniquely effective communications tool.
It's robust, it's easy to use, it "just works", it saves users actual money, it goes through firewalls "like butter (TM)" and it is truly cross platform.
iChat remains stubbornly useless. - requiring optimal network / software / settings configuration to work. In terms of the user experience, iChat is still not fit to be an Apple product. But when it works, it does do nice video
It might be entirely wishful thinking - but the bastard offspring of iChat and Skype would be something good enough to actually justify putting an iSight into every Mac.
Neither can I. However, that doesn't take away from the fact it has 61% of the market worldwide. 90% in some markets. If you want interoperability then that's who you have to work with.
Quote:
Originally posted by Carniphage
Are Skype's days numbered, perhaps, perhaps not.
Skype remains a uniquely effective communications tool.
It's robust, it's easy to use, it "just works", it saves users actual money, it goes through firewalls "like butter (TM)" and it is truly cross platform.
It's not unique at all. Gizmo does all of the above, is cheaper and uses industry standard SIP for it's comms so you can talk to other networks for free. Skype doesn't.
Skype is also barred from many corporate networks because of it's p2p networking technology.
Gizmo on the other hand just added Asterisk support so it even works with your corporate PBX.
Quote:
Originally posted by Carniphage
iChat remains stubbornly useless. - requiring optimal network / software / settings configuration to work. In terms of the user experience, iChat is still not fit to be an Apple product. But when it works, it does do nice video
IME, all it needs to get past firewalls is a decent CONE NAT router. If you've got one of the routers that don't do NAT well though, it's less than good. I disagree on the user experience. Apart from the NAT traversal problems with some cheesy routers, it's pretty slick. Far slicker than Skype, AIM, Gizmo particularly for file transfers.
Quote:
Originally posted by Carniphage
It might be entirely wishful thinking - but the bastard offspring of iChat and Skype would be something good enough to actually justify putting an iSight into every Mac.
The bastard offspring of iChat and Gizmo would be my choice although just changing it to use XMPP as it's protocol or getting SIP/STUN to work properly would be great. The problem is, iChat implemented it's init protocol before there was a standard. Now there is, they're gonna have problems merging old and new.
"The MSN Messenger application has the strongest penetration worldwide, with 61 percent of worldwide IM users utilizing the application in February. MSN Messenger is also dominant in Latin America, reaching more than 90 percent of IM users..."
Totally correct!!! In Mexico and Latin America everyone, and I mean everyone uses MSN Messenger. It's funny every time I read that AIM is the most popular. In Mexico and Latin America MSN Messenger is all they know. Maybe AIM is the most popular in the US only.
I'm hoping the new Yahoo Messenger beta for the Mac that was just released a few days ago will change that. It looks pretty nice and the next beta will let users chat (text and voice) with MSN Messenger contacts. I still would like to be able to use my webcam with MSN contacts. Microsoft needs to do to MSN Messenger for the Mac what Yahoo did for Yahoo Messenger for the Mac in the last beta.
It also seems that the new Yahoo Messenger will have Yahoo Phone In and Yahoo Phone Out which are equivalent to Skype In and Skype Out.
I want those two services available for iChat. Basically because iChat does not have much echo when using the built-in mic and speakers. With Skype I have to use a headset.
Hold up now. What's this about being able to do single audio chats or single-video with AIM users? I've never been able to figure out how to do more than simple text chats between AIM and iChat (and even then they lack all of the drag and drop features of iChat, like for picture or file sharing). Please tell me how an audio chat may be initiated between iChat and AIM?
I've resorted to just using Skype to go for audio chats between Mac and Windows, and maybe in the end that's for the best. Still, I would like to know how to do this if someone would point me in the right direction.
Hold up now. What's this about being able to do single audio chats or single-video with AIM users? I've never been able to figure out how to do more than simple text chats between AIM and iChat (and even then they lack all of the drag and drop features of iChat, like for picture or file sharing). Please tell me how an audio chat may be initiated between iChat and AIM?
I've resorted to just using Skype to go for audio chats between Mac and Windows, and maybe in the end that's for the best. Still, I would like to know how to do this if someone would point me in the right direction.
Unsure about the audio but I've seen video chats between AIM & iChat3 - not great but the PC had a low-def webcam. I think it can only be instigated by AIM though.
Skype seems to be the way that everyone in the UK and most of western Europe is going (outside of the pre-pubescent MSN community).
I have a lot of American friends, so please don't take this the wrong way. But a large portion of the USA consider anything outside of beloved country as insignificant. The funny thing is that technologically the US is way behind the rest of the world. Asia leads the way in hi-tech electronics, the UK and Netherlands lead the way in engineering and design, Germany have the lead in automotive development. I merely point this out to iterate the fact that we are important and our preferences should not be ignored.
AIM and iChat are ok, but I never see anyone else using them, even though the Mac community is growing nicely in my peer group, everyone uses Skype.
Comments
Originally posted by aegisdesign
It's not a matter of can't, more a matter of won't.
I got the impression from the other posts that the reason you won't (use iChat) is because you can't (use MSN with it). Hence, the solution (maybe) that I posted. Like I said, I don't have time to test it right now (although I have tested Google talk and can confirm that it works and is very easy to set up).
If you have some other reason why you "won't" use the wonderful iChat, than excuuuuse me for trying to help.
Originally posted by blackbird_1.0
I've accessed MSN with iChat before. It works. Not sure about the filesharing, though.
It doesn't. iChat does not support MSN's protocols.
Originally posted by meelash
I got the impression from the other posts that the reason you won't (use iChat) is because you can't (use MSN with it).
No, I DO use iChat. However, generally, the only other people I know that I can chat with using it are also on Macs using iChat and most of them also use Gizmo now so we tend not to use iChat at all. PC users in Europe tend to stick with MSN. Almost nobody uses AIM. I don't know of a single PC user with an AIM account.
So, that means I can't talk to the vast majority of IM users in Europe because there is no interoperability between AIM and MSN.
Originally posted by meelash
Hence, the solution (maybe) that I posted. Like I said, I don't have time to test it right now (although I have tested Google talk and can confirm that it works and is very easy to set up).
Unless they've changed it recently, Google's jabber server doesn't allow you to talk to anyone that does not have a gmail account. ie. it won't talk to other jabberd servers on the net. They don't have an MSN or AIM gateway installed on their server either so you can't talk from gtalk to MSN.
Google dropped a bollock on that one, picking an open standard and then running their own isolated service with no gateways so negating the reason jabber is useful in the first place.
Plus, when people talk about MSN, they generally mean the whole chatroom, filesharing, video and audio shebang, not just text messages.
Originally posted by meelash
If you have some other reason why you "won't" use the wonderful iChat, than excuuuuse me for trying to help.
As I said, I do. It's more that OTHER PEOPLE won't for various reasons (political distrust of anything American, features, AIM adverts or laziness) so it's mostly pointless me using it. It's about as useful as Sherlock is in Europe.
Instant Messaging is a mess. What it needs is for MSN, AIM, Yahoo, Apple and Google to all use the XMPP jabber protocols and allow people to offer jabberd servers like we do with email servers now. The centralised approach is plain stupid. Imagine if all mail had to go through hotmail or gmail and you weren't allowed to mail from one to the other! Apple and Google support jabber in varying degrees, including Apple shipping jabberd in OSX Server and supporting it in iChat, but until Microsoft in particular stops trying to protect it's ecosystem it's nothing more than a gesture. Maybe if Google sets up to beat MSN with features instead of it's minimalist gtalk client, things will change.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Imagine if all mail had to go through hotmail or gmail and you weren't allowed to mail from one to the other! Apple and Google support jabber in varying degrees, including Apple shipping jabberd in OSX Server and supporting it in iChat, but until Microsoft in particular stops trying to protect it's ecosystem it's nothing more than a gesture. Maybe if Google sets up to beat MSN with features instead of it's minimalist gtalk client, things will change.
Unless I've missed something doesn't this happen anyway? I'm trying to get hotmail & yahoo mail to play nicely with OSX Mail and it's not pretty.
This whole internet 'openness' thing was always a red rag to a bull & Apple are guilty (if a little smaller) than the rest. McD
Originally posted by McDave
Unless I've missed something doesn't this happen anyway?
No.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
No.
No?
Of course the emails are standard and the servers freely exchange them but free client access to them isn't standard so their ecosystems are still preserved. Whether the protocol incompatibility lies server to server or server to client it has the same effect to the user - restricted choice of client. I can't use iChat for all my IM and I can't use OS X Mail client to manage all my emails.
Unless it's just me who can't access them with the OSX Mail client in which case, help! (& forget the httpmail plugin, it doesn't work with my MSN accounts)
McD
Originally posted by McDave
Of course the emails are standard and the servers freely exchange them but free client access to them isn't standard so their ecosystems are still preserved.
But there's nothing stopping you using another mail client and server yet still sending emails to users of that system, so their ecosystems are not still preserved. Not in the way IM is closed.
1) The rumor is that VoIP is coming to OS X10.5 in some form.
2) The dominant VoIP technology, like it or not is Skype. Personally I like.
3) Skype seem to have been inexplicably slow moving toward a video implementation of the Skype client for Mac. Perhaps because they are waiting for something.
4) Judging by my personal experience and reading the Apple forums. - iChat is lousy at going through firewalls. Skype technology has this problem solved.
5) Apple should offer a good PC<->Mac videoconferencing solution.
My conclusion...
10.5 will ship with an officially sancitioned version of the Skype client for Mac. Developed by Apple with Skype's blessing. iChat 4.0 will include the old AOL client. Jabber and Skype.
It'd be a win for Skype - bringing new customers and losing the expense of developing for the Mac platform.
It'd be a win for Apple, because iChat would finally do what it is supposed to do. As well as provide Apple users with cheap International calls etc.
C.
Originally posted by Carniphage
2) The dominant VoIP technology, like it or not is Skype. Personally I like.
It's not the dominant VoIP technology, far from it. The leader is MSN.
Skype is only leading in the realm of Internet to POTS integration and even there it's days are numbered with all the telecom companies adopting SIP.
Originally posted by dutch pear
Althought that would be nice it is not going to happen this way. Why? there is already a leaked skype 2 with video for mac going around the net (highly unstable, do not use).
As I understand it, the leaked Mac client is quite old. And despite users clamouring for a beta of 2.0 - it has not happened. In the past, Skype have been getting Mac versions out almost monthly. That has mysteriously stopped. Perhaps EBay have said, don't focus on the Mac version, save some money. But given that Skype is awash with Ebay cash - that does not make much sense.
It seems to me that Skype's mac team are waiting for something.
C.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
It's not the dominant VoIP technology, far from it. The leader is MSN.
Skype is only leading in the realm of Internet to POTS integration and even there it's days are numbered with all the telecom companies adopting SIP.
(I can't see Apple adopting MSN)
Are Skype's days numbered, perhaps, perhaps not.
Skype remains a uniquely effective communications tool.
It's robust, it's easy to use, it "just works", it saves users actual money, it goes through firewalls "like butter (TM)" and it is truly cross platform.
iChat remains stubbornly useless. - requiring optimal network / software / settings configuration to work. In terms of the user experience, iChat is still not fit to be an Apple product. But when it works, it does do nice video
It might be entirely wishful thinking - but the bastard offspring of iChat and Skype would be something good enough to actually justify putting an iSight into every Mac.
c.
Originally posted by Carniphage
(I can't see Apple adopting MSN)
Neither can I. However, that doesn't take away from the fact it has 61% of the market worldwide. 90% in some markets. If you want interoperability then that's who you have to work with.
Originally posted by Carniphage
Are Skype's days numbered, perhaps, perhaps not.
Skype remains a uniquely effective communications tool.
It's robust, it's easy to use, it "just works", it saves users actual money, it goes through firewalls "like butter (TM)" and it is truly cross platform.
It's not unique at all. Gizmo does all of the above, is cheaper and uses industry standard SIP for it's comms so you can talk to other networks for free. Skype doesn't.
Skype is also barred from many corporate networks because of it's p2p networking technology.
Gizmo on the other hand just added Asterisk support so it even works with your corporate PBX.
Originally posted by Carniphage
iChat remains stubbornly useless. - requiring optimal network / software / settings configuration to work. In terms of the user experience, iChat is still not fit to be an Apple product. But when it works, it does do nice video
IME, all it needs to get past firewalls is a decent CONE NAT router. If you've got one of the routers that don't do NAT well though, it's less than good. I disagree on the user experience. Apart from the NAT traversal problems with some cheesy routers, it's pretty slick. Far slicker than Skype, AIM, Gizmo particularly for file transfers.
Originally posted by Carniphage
It might be entirely wishful thinking - but the bastard offspring of iChat and Skype would be something good enough to actually justify putting an iSight into every Mac.
The bastard offspring of iChat and Gizmo would be my choice although just changing it to use XMPP as it's protocol or getting SIP/STUN to work properly would be great. The problem is, iChat implemented it's init protocol before there was a standard. Now there is, they're gonna have problems merging old and new.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Here's some stats...
"The MSN Messenger application has the strongest penetration worldwide, with 61 percent of worldwide IM users utilizing the application in February. MSN Messenger is also dominant in Latin America, reaching more than 90 percent of IM users..."
Totally correct!!! In Mexico and Latin America everyone, and I mean everyone uses MSN Messenger. It's funny every time I read that AIM is the most popular. In Mexico and Latin America MSN Messenger is all they know. Maybe AIM is the most popular in the US only.
I'm hoping the new Yahoo Messenger beta for the Mac that was just released a few days ago will change that. It looks pretty nice and the next beta will let users chat (text and voice) with MSN Messenger contacts. I still would like to be able to use my webcam with MSN contacts. Microsoft needs to do to MSN Messenger for the Mac what Yahoo did for Yahoo Messenger for the Mac in the last beta.
It also seems that the new Yahoo Messenger will have Yahoo Phone In and Yahoo Phone Out which are equivalent to Skype In and Skype Out.
I want those two services available for iChat. Basically because iChat does not have much echo when using the built-in mic and speakers. With Skype I have to use a headset.
I've resorted to just using Skype to go for audio chats between Mac and Windows, and maybe in the end that's for the best. Still, I would like to know how to do this if someone would point me in the right direction.
Originally posted by bdj21ya
Hold up now. What's this about being able to do single audio chats or single-video with AIM users? I've never been able to figure out how to do more than simple text chats between AIM and iChat (and even then they lack all of the drag and drop features of iChat, like for picture or file sharing). Please tell me how an audio chat may be initiated between iChat and AIM?
I've resorted to just using Skype to go for audio chats between Mac and Windows, and maybe in the end that's for the best. Still, I would like to know how to do this if someone would point me in the right direction.
Unsure about the audio but I've seen video chats between AIM & iChat3 - not great but the PC had a low-def webcam. I think it can only be instigated by AIM though.
McD
I have a lot of American friends, so please don't take this the wrong way. But a large portion of the USA consider anything outside of beloved country as insignificant. The funny thing is that technologically the US is way behind the rest of the world. Asia leads the way in hi-tech electronics, the UK and Netherlands lead the way in engineering and design, Germany have the lead in automotive development. I merely point this out to iterate the fact that we are important and our preferences should not be ignored.
AIM and iChat are ok, but I never see anyone else using them, even though the Mac community is growing nicely in my peer group, everyone uses Skype.
Apple should have bought Skype before Ebay did!