I am no longer supporting blu ray! ive switched, the dvd forum is commited to backwards compatibility for all existing and past disk formats,I dont see sony supporting standard res dvds for very long,what with the royalties they will have to pay to the dvd forum.
And from what i hear the new blu ray players wont play cds?
Anyhow I think it has been made very clear,that the reason the big studios are all behind blu ray is their rather invasive copy protection scams... NOTICE I DIDNT say schemes!
remember that infernal computer incident with the Sony copy protected cds in 05,expect more from Sony I dont trust them,I trust the dvd forum because i have so many dvds and i so far havent felt or have been treated like a terrorist for playing them when and where i want to play them.
I am no longer drinking sonys cool aid and wouldnt suggest anyone else doing so Either,also the missinformation is just stupid.
For Instance hd dvd is a blue laser technology,it will do 1080p and does have multiple layers,and it is NOT stuck where it is at and wont see further advancement and development like sony would have you beleive!
its amazing how many blu ray supporters dont know that.
any technology that takes off with consumer support will,see advancement and innovation we all know that.... any defacto standard in history has shown that. like with tv.
and besides hd dvd is here now!!!! Sony keeps making empty promises,and the other day I saw an hd dvd playing in a store and Everyone watching that was in teh format war know,agreed the picture and sound quality CRUSHED THE BLU RAY STUFF.
IT MADE IT LOOK LIKE CRAP....
Down with Sony! they are screwing up the market they need to get out of the way...
and let the DvD forum do what it has been doing for years now with dvd.
Im buying HD so i know my future collection will be viable.
what sort of rant is that? none of what you said makes any sense what so ever... HD dvd Killing blu ray? There are so few transfers done in HD I doubt you've ever seen what either bluray or HD dvd can look like from a true HD transfer. A 2k transfer would easily cost twice as much as an SD transfer and a 4k transfer costs about $4 a frame, get it? that's per frame. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Further to accuse Sony of being the pirates in this business is simply absurd. They are all pirates and no one in the corporate world has the "consumers best interest at heart." no ONE! While you're at it (accusing sony of "ripping off the consumer") consider that (at least the last I knew) HDDVD would only disply an actual HD signal digitally (via HDMI or other ) and would down-sample any component signal to SD REZ. The bluray forum would allow full HD output either digitally or VIA analog Component. It's on their page go check it out. We have a long way to go before this "war" ends and the bottom line is the consumer is not the only factor in the equation of x= the best format. Studios (artist patrons) and the artist themselves need to be at least somewhat protected and backwards compatibility is, in my opinion (and many manufacturers opinions) quaint. Everyone wants newer better faster but it also has to work with all of your old stuff as well? That's silly... CD's weren't backwards compatible with cassettes and we all as mac fans clearly have an upgrade schedule of about 3 years for everyone of our computers. that's the way it works better faster smarter but you gotta shed the old skin otherwise you end up with a bloated turd like microsoft. Bluray will probably win the war as it's shaping up now, things may change but don't use the old (well sony isn't fast enough) they are well aware of how fast they have to move. I just upgraded my finishing suite to an avid symphony and my cameras to HD last year. If the producers have just made the upgrade and most old material isn't even slated to be telecined in HD then how could the consumer really be ready for HD? We're very close and it's been a long time coming but don't ever expect anything overnight just because you have the desire.
I am no longer supporting blu ray! ive switched, the dvd forum is commited to backwards compatibility for all existing and past disk formats,I dont see sony supporting standard res dvds for very long,what with the royalties they will have to pay to the dvd forum.
And from what i hear the new blu ray players wont play cds?
Wow, where do I begin with your irrational rant? How about here...first, is that Blu-ray is also commited to backwards compatibility. Most Blu-ray players will be 100% backward compatible, with the exception of a few--the Pioneer and the Sony standalone players come to mind as they'll play just about everything except CDs.
So, what you hear about Blu-ray players is wrong. They will play CDs and everything else (DVDs, MP3s, etc.), just like two or so players won't. If you want to get a Sony player that will play CDs, I suggest you get the PS3--as it will play everything.
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Anyhow I think it has been made very clear,that the reason the big studios are all behind blu ray is their rather invasive copy protection scams... NOTICE I DIDNT say schemes!
remember that infernal computer incident with the Sony copy protected cds in 05,expect more from Sony I dont trust them,I trust the dvd forum because i have so many dvds and i so far havent felt or have been treated like a terrorist for playing them when and where i want to play them.
I am no longer drinking sonys cool aid and wouldnt suggest anyone else doing so Either,also the missinformation is just stupid.
Well then, if you trust the DVD Forum, then you must trust Sony then, as they are a member of the DVD Forum--as many of the BDA are as well as the other supporting Blu-ray companies. Furthermore, both Blu-ray and HD DVD both use AACS to combat pirating, so in this respect, they are equally as invasive. True, Blu-ray has added protection on top of what AACS offers, but hardly what I would consider terrorist treatment. What were you saying about misinformation again?--as I see a bunch here. If you are a anti-Sony fanboy, then fine, but realize this--Blu-ray is much bigger than just Sony. What part of 90% hollywood studio support, the majority of CE companies (Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp, Philips, TDK, LG, etc), and the majoirty of IT companies (Apple, Dell, HP, LiteOn, Acer) don't you understand?
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For Instance hd dvd is a blue laser technology,it will do 1080p and does have multiple layers,and it is NOT stuck where it is at and wont see further advancement and development like sony would have you beleive!
its amazing how many blu ray supporters dont know that.
What is amazing is how many HD DVD supporters choose to omit that the current HD DVD A1 and XA1 (which only sold a paltry 25,000 units btw) only output 1080i, not 1080P. True, the HD DVD discs are encoded on the discs themselves as 1080P, but what good has that done for the past 6 months with hardware only capable of 1080i. And even now, the second generation HD DVD A2 will not do 1080P...you have to buy the $1,000 HD DVD second gen player, the XA2 for full 1080P output.
As far as disc capacity goes, HD DVD may finally get to three layers, that is a 45 GB disc, right about the same time the BDA has mass produced the 100 GB (quad layered) discs. It is well known that Blu-ray was built from the start with multi-layer capabilities whereas HD DVD is built upon old DVD technology, leaving the format to figure out a way to get multiple layers to work with the old technology. In other words, unless you enjoy or like flipping your disc, Blu-ray is the way to go concerning storage.
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any technology that takes off with consumer support will,see advancement and innovation we all know that.... any defacto standard in history has shown that. like with tv.
and besides hd dvd is here now!!!! Sony keeps making empty promises,and the other day I saw an hd dvd playing in a store and Everyone watching that was in teh format war know,agreed the picture and sound quality CRUSHED THE BLU RAY STUFF.
IT MADE IT LOOK LIKE CRAP....
Please...if you've been following recent Blu-ray movie reviews, most if not all fairly recent releases on Blu-ray equal or better what HD DVD has put out (see Tears of the Sun review on High Def Digest). True, Blu-ray came out of the gates slow, but are very quickly stomping out any PQ issues and/or player (Samsung) issues.
Besides, with H.264 encoded movies (Disney, Fox, and Sony) along with 50 GB movies due out in a month from Blu-ray backers, I think you'll find HD DVD getting less and less viable as time goes on. To further the damage HD DVD will be receiving in this fourth quarter, they'll have to contend with the plethora of players coming out of Panasonic, Pioneer, and Sony (both standalone and the PS3) which will surely trump the measely 25,000 units Toshiba has managed to ship. Approximately 1 million Blu-ray players or 25,000 HD DVD players? Hmmm....not real hard to see who'll be winning by year's end.
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Down with Sony! they are screwing up the market they need to get out of the way...
and let the DvD forum do what it has been doing for years now with dvd.
Im buying HD so i know my future collection will be viable.
Again the FUD you are spewing has been refuted many a time on this thread. In reality, it is Toshiba who is screwing up the market, as they are the sole hardware manufacturer for HD DVD right now (they'll have two when Microsoft releases their Xbox 360 add-on which have been historically proven to be failures--see Sega). Do you really want to see the 170+ companies supporting Blu-ray? Most DVD Forum members support Blu-ray,...but under the BDA umbrella. So, do some research and for goodness sake, buy HD DVD if you want to,...if it is paper weights you are interested in in the future.
it's just a sign of them starting to realize they have made some serious blunders. Now if they have a semi-faulty launch like the 360 did with its heating problems it almost 100 percent guarantees the ps3's demise this generation.
Uhh huh. Indeed, I second Blackcat, keep dreaming.
People need to realise that Blu-Ray is a lot more than just Sony, this is not a Sony only format.
In other news after sitting through presentations from Samsung and Panasonic I will tell you both are hammering the following points, all the top tier consumer electronics companies are supporting Blu-Ray, all of them (Sony, Panasonic, LG and Samsung are the 4 biggest along with Pioneer, Philips and Sharp all being there). They are also making a very big deal that this is one of the few times Sony and Panasonic have agreed on something. Those companies are working very closely with retailers too.
7 of 8 movie studios are supporting Blu-Ray, 5 are exclusive with only Universal being the hold out compared to 3 of 8 and only 1 exclusive on the HD-DVD side and people ultimately won't care about one side or the other without the content to back it up.
Finally ultimately Blu-Ray does offer extra capacity to offer higher quality bit-rates. Once the hardware is sorted Blu-Ray should offer the higher quality.
That's what they are planning to sell on and I suspect they will be successful. I don't give a stuff about the DVD Forum when none of the CE brands that I trust want anything to do with what they are producing. It isn't the CE brands that are out to hammer DRM, that's the movie studios. Sony's problem has been they are both but again Blu-Ray is a lot more than just Sony. They other members of the BDA won't let Sony suicide the format.
As a final note Samsung strongly hinted at a potential price drop to coincide with the PS3. Mind you they were talking in a European region so they were referring to March and not November. Not sure if they will in the States in November or not.
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Originally Posted by Catman4d2
And from what i hear the new blu ray players wont play cds?
No idea where that came from. Both the Samsung player I saw and Panasonic's play CDs and it was demonstrated on one. Neither is intending to drop DVD support either as they don't see BD as a huge advancement like DVD was over VHS so they expect people will keep their old libraries and maybe upgrade later.
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Originally Posted by Catman4d2
For Instance hd dvd is a blue laser technology,it will do 1080p and does have multiple layers,and it is NOT stuck where it is at and wont see further advancement and development like sony would have you beleive!
Any development they do means support is lost for current players. They can't add an extra layer without removing support for current players as it isn't in the specification so ultimately BD Players will always have the extra capacity to play with. Codec development helps both equally.
Or how about the best solution of them all. Stick with HD DVD whcih is cheaper and more plentiful yet delivers quality that Blu-Ray is only just now catching up with. The answer is clear...HD DVD was the correct format chosen as the DVD successor.
The players offer more features for less money and the quality of the movies overall has been superior to Blu-Ray.
Someone please explain to me why I should pay twice as much for less? Studio support will change. Fox, Disney and Universal weren't making DVDs upon launch but look at today.
Only HD DVD mandates features like TrueHD lossless support, Ethernet and Secondary Audio and Video decoders. Blu-Ray vendors can strip the players to the bone yet still charge you an arm and a leg. The clear choice is HD DVD if you want to watch HD content. If you want to wait and sit around waxing poetic about what is "coming soon" choose Blu-Ray..that's your format.
Or how about the best solution of them all. Stick with HD DVD whcih is cheaper and more plentiful yet delivers quality that Blu-Ray is only just now catching up with.
Considering the two formats are just out of the gate, it's amazing that you're calling the finish line already. Blu-ray may be "just catching up," but guess what, they have plenty more potential and headroom. HD DVD is more or less at full capacity. I'm not holding my breath for triple-layer.
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Originally Posted by hmurchison
Someone please explain to me why I should pay twice as much for less?
<Inigo Montoya> You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means. </Inigo Montoya>
PS3=$500. Bet on it. Please show me the $250 HD DVD player. Besides, you keep saying you're not partial and are going to buy both anyway. So wouldn't you be paying thrice the price of your theoretical cheap HD DVD player, since you're going to be buying HD DVD (1x price) plus Blu-ray (2x price)? 1+2=3.
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Originally Posted by hmurchison
Studio support will change. Fox, Disney and Universal weren't making DVDs upon launch but look at today.
There were no viable competitors to DVDs in the last ten years. Nothing that could match it in picture quality or price (videocassettes have always cost more to produce). The comparison is not valid with HD DVD, since that has a competing technology that matches or beats it.
Uhh huh. Indeed, I second Blackcat, keep dreaming.
you trully believe if sony has an issue with it's ps3's on top of all the other bullcrap that it wont make it out of the third spot? man you give sony a lot of credit.
Considering the two formats are just out of the gate, it's amazing that you're calling the finish line already. Blu-ray may be "just catching up," but guess what, they have plenty more potential and headroom. HD DVD is more or less at full capacity. I'm not holding my breath for triple-layer.
Funny thing is no one's talking about the sales of the Samsung BD player. I'm betting they haven't even cracked 7000 players. HD DVD still has 30 more titles than Blu-Ray despite only having %60 of the major studios making movies. More HD DVD titles hit a higher threshold of quality. Sony has cut their Playstation shipsments in half. I'd say if you think this is "catching up" I'd like to know your definition.
ahhhhh the infamous "HD DVD is more or less at full capacity" Most of today's HD DVD movies were encoded months ago using an older VC-1 encoder and they still avg around low 20 GB for the movie itself. In movies like the Last Samurai and Phantom of the Opera both movies have around 8GB of extras. Here's the kicker though...the new VC-1 encoder maintains the same quality but can go as low as 9Mbps. So I expect to see more new movies coming out that are smaller and look better. Dropped the "maxed out" schtick..it simply makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
The PS3 doesn't ship until mid November. That's a ways away distribution will be limited. Let's wait until it actually ships before we start talking about it as a low cost BD player mmmm'kay?
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There were no viable competitors to DVDs in the last ten years. Nothing that could match it in picture quality or price (videocassettes have always cost more to produce). The comparison is not valid with HD DVD, since that has a competing technology that matches or beats it.
Many people in various technology and entertainment communities were afraid that there would be DIVX exclusive releases, and that the then-fledgling DVD format would suffer as a result. Disney, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures, for instance, initially released their films exclusively on the DIVX format. It should be noted that DIVX featured stronger encryption technology than DVD (Triple DES), which may have been a contributing factor to the three aforementioned studios supporting DIVX first.
Notice the parallels? Disney, Fox and Paramount "EXCLUSIVELY" delivered their movies in DIVX and all the studios were wooed by stronger encryption technologies. Notice the similarity with these ideals and Disney and Fox once again going down that same road?
you trully believe if sony has an issue with it's ps3's on top of all the other bullcrap that it wont make it out of the third spot? man you give sony a lot of credit.
Well, considering that, although I love the Wii, the graphics on it are just disappointing, and that my XBOX 360 combines the best attributes of a dutch oven and a windtunnel, I think it's pretty clear that despite it's price, the PS3 is going to be the only acceptably decent console this generation.
So while you may hate Sony, which is fine, the PS3 is by far the best of the three consoles quality-wise, and the one that all the companies are making games for.
Funny thing is no one's talking about the sales of the Samsung BD player. I'm betting they haven't even cracked 7000 players. HD DVD still has 30 more titles than Blu-Ray despite only having %60 of the major studios making movies. More HD DVD titles hit a higher threshold of quality. Sony has cut their Playstation shipsments in half. I'd say if you think this is "catching up" I'd like to know your definition.
Go ahead...I'm waiting...no...no mention of the...ahh, Ok, well, of course you fail to mention in this paragraph that HD DVD had a much hyped three month head start, so pretty much the 30 more titles mumbo jumbo can be taken for what it is worth. Blu-ray will simply eclipse the number of titles of HD DVD in a couple of more months, simple as that.
"More HD DVD titles hit a higher threshold of quality." --Keep telling yourself that. I suggest you look at the current Blu-ray reviews and the kicker is, Blu-ray still has room to grow with dual-layer 50 GB movies to come in the next few weeks. Quality on Blu-ray is easily going to be equal or better.
Even at half the PS3 shipments, you are still talking about 1 million Blu-ray units as compared to 25,000 to 30,000 HD DVD units. The math here is simple, HD DVD will most certainly be getting trumped in the 4th quarter here--and I'm not even putting the many standalone players that will be coming from Panasonic, Sony, and Pioneer next month.
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ahhhhh the infamous "HD DVD is more or less at full capacity" Most of today's HD DVD movies were encoded months ago using an older VC-1 encoder and they still avg around low 20 GB for the movie itself. In movies like the Last Samurai and Phantom of the Opera both movies have around 8GB of extras. Here's the kicker though...the new VC-1 encoder maintains the same quality but can go as low as 9Mbps. So I expect to see more new movies coming out that are smaller and look better. Dropped the "maxed out" schtick..it simply makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
No, it doesn't make him look like it doesn't know what he is talking about, as what Kolchak brings up is a VERY valid concern in respect to HD DVD. Furthermore, it has been shown up as such on some articles as well...
The rival media's physical storage constraints have the potential to be a greater issue in this struggle than many observers have considered up until now. Before HD DVD's launch, I had privately heard rumblings of studio concerns about HD DVD's lower capacity.
Now that I've taken a closer look at the first eight HD DVD movies I received from Warner Brothers and Universal, I can understand why. None of the eight titles could fit on a 15GB single-layer HD DVD, and half came within a mere 5GB of maxing out a 30GB dual-layer disc--even though all relied on the latest, more efficient video codecs (VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC). The movies were The Last Samurai (which topped out at 27.3GB), Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles (25.4GB), The Phantom of the Opera (24.8GB), Jarhead (24.7GB), The Bourne Identity (22.7GB), Serenity (19.6GB), The Fugitive (18.2GB), and Doom (16.5GB).
So your solution is to continue to live by the word of Amir and tout this "newer" VC-1 codec, but regardless, both formats will be using this "newer" VC-1 codec if and when it ever gets here, so your asserted defense of HD DVDs shortcomings still rings hollow.
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The PS3 doesn't ship until mid November. That's a ways away distribution will be limited. Let's wait until it actually ships before we start talking about it as a low cost BD player mmmm'kay?
Yeah, limited to 500,000 units at launch and 1 million by the end of the year...what was HD DVD's magic number again? C'mon, just because the launch is like 6 weeks away, you want to ignore the viability of the PS3...well, keeping tunnel vision glasses on and choosing to ignore the inevitable surely does not help your argument.
The big question on my mind going into TGS was PS3. I was hoping to go to the show and see stuff that would demonstrate why I'd spend an extra $200 on a console...and I did. Virtua Fighter 5, White Knight Story, and especially MotorStorm (OMG) were well beyond anything I've seen on the 360. I don't know if you can really tell from the videos we posted, but MotorStorm is just so damn impressive. Every once in a while I'll see a game and just take a step back and think to myself how far the visuals of games have come. Titles like the original Virtua Fighter arcade game, the Daytona USA arcade game, Metal Gear Solid 2 -- with each of these, I distinctly remember having those feelings. MotorStorm was the same for me. The high-res graphics running at 60 FPS with all of those special effects (like mud on your windshield) -- it just looks real. Honestly, I don't know how I'm going to play Excite Truck after having seen this. It's like, on one hand I could be playing this phenomenal looking game that controls really well, or on the other I could play this "kids toy" with last-gen visuals and steering that actually never feels like I'm in complete control. Heck, if Sony adds tilt control to MotorStorm, there really will be no reason for me to play Excite Truck.
The only thing I would disagree in this paragraph was the $200 more on a console comment, as the lower end PS3 now with HDMI 1.3 will only cost you $100 more than the top end Xbox 360.
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Maybe it was that Sony just had all of its games running on super sharp flatscreen TVs, but almost everything on PS3 just looked like it was more next-gen to me. It was kind of like the difference between, dare I say it, the PS2 and the Dreamcast. Which, as you know, wasn't that big a deal at first -- the Dreamcast had some fantastic looking second gen games -- but you could still tell the PS2 was a more powerful system (and to reiterate, I'm only talking hardware here -- I know the 360 is in a much different place software-wise). I think that's a rather fair comparison, to be honest -- similarly, as with the PS2, the PS3 is a platform that will distance itself even further once developers get more familiar with the hardware. Julian Eggebrecht of Factor 5 told me that they've only just scratched the surface of what they can do on PS3, and he fully expects all second gen PS3 games -- or certainly all third gen PS3 games -- to run in 1080p.
Looking forward to it!
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So yeah, there's a tangible difference in the visual quality between PS3 and the Xbox 360. Does that surprise anyone?
Nope, doesn't suprise me...and it will only get better. The PS3 is going to be one sweet system, with Blu-ray movies to boot. C'mon Apple, just bring me a Mac Pro with a Blu-ray drive come 2007, and all will be perfect!
Wow Marzetta7 I had to dust the cobwebs off of that link.
You are correct there will be vastly more BD-ROM drives in the market by years end. However we do not know with any certainty how many gamers have HDTV and/or care enough about movies. The Xbox 360 addon is under 200 bucks and honestly I'm toying with the idea of getting that instead of a Toshiba A2 because I can game.
Ok onto disc sizes it's not just Amir talking about the VC-1 but Ben Waggoner who's right there on the compression team. This benefits Blu-Ray as well so I don't know where the resistance is coming from. 50GB DL discs are needed in only a few situaiton. I expect a vast majority of Blu-Ray movies to utilize the cheaper SL 25GB.
The PC article you present is very old. Using the software HD DVD playback software you can easily find out the size of the movies. For your own edification and Kolchaks as well. Here's from Rio's ,who is a Blu-Ray supporter, findings
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Title Disc Capacity Feature Only =========================================================== Chronicles of Riddick 28,246,671,360 22,134,411,264 Apollo 13 29,643,898,880 21,592,080,384 U-571 24,999,755,776 21,508,499,456 Van Helsing 27,365,212,160 20,242,731,008 Cinderella Man 28,648,079,360 20,688,172,288 Doom 17,745,379,328 14,012,043,264 Assault Precinct 13 22,380,806,144 17,962,080,256 Bourne Supremacy 24,421,138,432 19,843,235,840 Rundown 20,922,105,856 15,278,671,872 Rumor Has It 13,434,421,248 13,013,061,632 Good Fellas 23,371,513,856 19,882,702,848 Phantom of the Opera 26,723,352,576 19,773,874,176 Happy Gilmore 16,233,070,592 14,476,439,552 Blazing Saddles 27,279,753,216 17,690,525,696 Full Metal Jacket 29,957,947,392 24,818,763,776 The Fugitive 19,560,988,672 17,247,145,984 Training Day 24,214,634,496 18,444,447,744 Kiss Kiss Bang Bang 13,260,488,704 12,622,839,808 Tomb Raider 27,938,652,160 19,327,893,504 Sahara 29,497,622,528 20,879,970,304 Sky Captain 26,102,595,584 19,781,615,616
Again these movies did not have access to the new encoder which is far more efficient.
So please would either one of you tell me how HD DVD is almost maxed out? Full Metal Jacket used the most space and ironically it is the poorest quality HD DVD out there. My point isn't to bash Blu-Ray but rather to set people's expectations that 50GB isn't going to miraculously give you better quality. I also wish to hightlight that VC-1 and AVC are getting better by each month and next year we're going to see the file sizes for these movies drop. They will eventually have movies at about 12 Mbps avg which is just a bit over the standard DVD maximum rate. This means plenty of 13-16GB movies that look GREAT.
Wow Marzetta7 I had to dust the cobwebs off of that link.
You are correct there will be vastly more BD-ROM drives in the market by years end. However we do not know with any certainty how many gamers have HDTV and/or care enough about movies. The Xbox 360 addon is under 200 bucks and honestly I'm toying with the idea of getting that instead of a Toshiba A2 because I can game.
So, not only is it an external player, will cost $199 (making it the same price as a PS3), but will NOT have HDMI as well.
I'll pass, thanks. Why go for this when you can get more movies, more storage, the actual capability of playing games on next gen media, and not worry about the whole no HDMI issue with a PS3 that has a drive built-in?
Where is the outcry over this from those people who indeed think the PS3 is overpriced? Where?
And spare me the, "Well Microsoft is giving you the choice" mantra.
Again these movies did not have access to the new encoder which is far more efficient. So please would either one of you tell me how HD DVD is almost maxed out? Full Metal Jacket used the most space and ironically it is the poorest quality HD DVD out there. My point isn't to bash Blu-Ray but rather to set people's expectations that 50GB isn't going to miraculously give you better quality. I also wish to hightlight that VC-1 and AVC are getting better by each month and next year we're going to see the file sizes for these movies drop. They will eventually have movies at about 12 Mbps avg which is just a bit over the standard DVD maximum rate. This means plenty of 13-16GB movies that look GREAT.
Well, when you consider that 10 of those movies you listed aren't even close to being as long as those all important epics like all three LOTR movies and others and that they are within 5 GB OR LESS from maxing out, you can then comprehend that HD DVD's capacity issue is relevant. Or were you just hoping that Amir's "new" VC-1 codec is going to save the day like China or something? And when you factor in the more advanced extras that will eventually accompany these discs, what then? Will the new VC-1 codec still be saving the day?
Didn't I preface my comments with discussion about how today's shipping movies are not using the new VC-1 encoding. Kolchak stated that HD DVD was close to maxing out and you supported that. I then provided proof to the contrary which shows that the movie itself takes up less and only the extras bring the data close to the 30GB limit. Will the advances of VC-1 and AVC save the day? Of course they will. Dropping from 16-18Mbps to 12-14Mbps is substantial.
I think anyone looking at the chart that I showed easily understands the point I'm making. You're simply being stubborn. HD DVD is not close to maxing out. I've proven that.
LotR EE editions will all come on two discs. Not because they wouldn't fit onto one but because consumers like premium editions with dual discs. Look at Mission Impossible III for proof of this.
Comments
I am no longer supporting blu ray! ive switched, the dvd forum is commited to backwards compatibility for all existing and past disk formats,I dont see sony supporting standard res dvds for very long,what with the royalties they will have to pay to the dvd forum.
And from what i hear the new blu ray players wont play cds?
Anyhow I think it has been made very clear,that the reason the big studios are all behind blu ray is their rather invasive copy protection scams... NOTICE I DIDNT say schemes!
remember that infernal computer incident with the Sony copy protected cds in 05,expect more from Sony I dont trust them,I trust the dvd forum because i have so many dvds and i so far havent felt or have been treated like a terrorist for playing them when and where i want to play them.
I am no longer drinking sonys cool aid and wouldnt suggest anyone else doing so Either,also the missinformation is just stupid.
For Instance hd dvd is a blue laser technology,it will do 1080p and does have multiple layers,and it is NOT stuck where it is at and wont see further advancement and development like sony would have you beleive!
its amazing how many blu ray supporters dont know that.
any technology that takes off with consumer support will,see advancement and innovation we all know that.... any defacto standard in history has shown that. like with tv.
and besides hd dvd is here now!!!! Sony keeps making empty promises,and the other day I saw an hd dvd playing in a store and Everyone watching that was in teh format war know,agreed the picture and sound quality CRUSHED THE BLU RAY STUFF.
IT MADE IT LOOK LIKE CRAP....
Down with Sony! they are screwing up the market they need to get out of the way...
and let the DvD forum do what it has been doing for years now with dvd.
Im buying HD so i know my future collection will be viable.
8)
... Curse you, Toshiba and Sony, and your stupid format war! A plague on both your houses! ...
Lots of money involved..
Screw sony... etc etc. .....
8)
what sort of rant is that? none of what you said makes any sense what so ever... HD dvd Killing blu ray? There are so few transfers done in HD I doubt you've ever seen what either bluray or HD dvd can look like from a true HD transfer. A 2k transfer would easily cost twice as much as an SD transfer and a 4k transfer costs about $4 a frame, get it? that's per frame. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Further to accuse Sony of being the pirates in this business is simply absurd. They are all pirates and no one in the corporate world has the "consumers best interest at heart." no ONE! While you're at it (accusing sony of "ripping off the consumer") consider that (at least the last I knew) HDDVD would only disply an actual HD signal digitally (via HDMI or other ) and would down-sample any component signal to SD REZ. The bluray forum would allow full HD output either digitally or VIA analog Component. It's on their page go check it out. We have a long way to go before this "war" ends and the bottom line is the consumer is not the only factor in the equation of x= the best format. Studios (artist patrons) and the artist themselves need to be at least somewhat protected and backwards compatibility is, in my opinion (and many manufacturers opinions) quaint. Everyone wants newer better faster but it also has to work with all of your old stuff as well? That's silly... CD's weren't backwards compatible with cassettes and we all as mac fans clearly have an upgrade schedule of about 3 years for everyone of our computers. that's the way it works better faster smarter but you gotta shed the old skin otherwise you end up with a bloated turd like microsoft. Bluray will probably win the war as it's shaping up now, things may change but don't use the old (well sony isn't fast enough) they are well aware of how fast they have to move. I just upgraded my finishing suite to an avid symphony and my cameras to HD last year. If the producers have just made the upgrade and most old material isn't even slated to be telecined in HD then how could the consumer really be ready for HD? We're very close and it's been a long time coming but don't ever expect anything overnight just because you have the desire.
Screw sony...
I am no longer supporting blu ray! ive switched, the dvd forum is commited to backwards compatibility for all existing and past disk formats,I dont see sony supporting standard res dvds for very long,what with the royalties they will have to pay to the dvd forum.
And from what i hear the new blu ray players wont play cds?
Wow, where do I begin with your irrational rant? How about here...first, is that Blu-ray is also commited to backwards compatibility. Most Blu-ray players will be 100% backward compatible, with the exception of a few--the Pioneer and the Sony standalone players come to mind as they'll play just about everything except CDs.
So, what you hear about Blu-ray players is wrong. They will play CDs and everything else (DVDs, MP3s, etc.), just like two or so players won't. If you want to get a Sony player that will play CDs, I suggest you get the PS3--as it will play everything.
Anyhow I think it has been made very clear,that the reason the big studios are all behind blu ray is their rather invasive copy protection scams... NOTICE I DIDNT say schemes!
remember that infernal computer incident with the Sony copy protected cds in 05,expect more from Sony I dont trust them,I trust the dvd forum because i have so many dvds and i so far havent felt or have been treated like a terrorist for playing them when and where i want to play them.
I am no longer drinking sonys cool aid and wouldnt suggest anyone else doing so Either,also the missinformation is just stupid.
Well then, if you trust the DVD Forum, then you must trust Sony then, as they are a member of the DVD Forum--as many of the BDA are as well as the other supporting Blu-ray companies. Furthermore, both Blu-ray and HD DVD both use AACS to combat pirating, so in this respect, they are equally as invasive. True, Blu-ray has added protection on top of what AACS offers, but hardly what I would consider terrorist treatment. What were you saying about misinformation again?--as I see a bunch here. If you are a anti-Sony fanboy, then fine, but realize this--Blu-ray is much bigger than just Sony. What part of 90% hollywood studio support, the majority of CE companies (Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp, Philips, TDK, LG, etc), and the majoirty of IT companies (Apple, Dell, HP, LiteOn, Acer) don't you understand?
For Instance hd dvd is a blue laser technology,it will do 1080p and does have multiple layers,and it is NOT stuck where it is at and wont see further advancement and development like sony would have you beleive!
its amazing how many blu ray supporters dont know that.
What is amazing is how many HD DVD supporters choose to omit that the current HD DVD A1 and XA1 (which only sold a paltry 25,000 units btw) only output 1080i, not 1080P. True, the HD DVD discs are encoded on the discs themselves as 1080P, but what good has that done for the past 6 months with hardware only capable of 1080i. And even now, the second generation HD DVD A2 will not do 1080P...you have to buy the $1,000 HD DVD second gen player, the XA2 for full 1080P output.
As far as disc capacity goes, HD DVD may finally get to three layers, that is a 45 GB disc, right about the same time the BDA has mass produced the 100 GB (quad layered) discs. It is well known that Blu-ray was built from the start with multi-layer capabilities whereas HD DVD is built upon old DVD technology, leaving the format to figure out a way to get multiple layers to work with the old technology. In other words, unless you enjoy or like flipping your disc, Blu-ray is the way to go concerning storage.
any technology that takes off with consumer support will,see advancement and innovation we all know that.... any defacto standard in history has shown that. like with tv.
and besides hd dvd is here now!!!! Sony keeps making empty promises,and the other day I saw an hd dvd playing in a store and Everyone watching that was in teh format war know,agreed the picture and sound quality CRUSHED THE BLU RAY STUFF.
IT MADE IT LOOK LIKE CRAP....
Please...if you've been following recent Blu-ray movie reviews, most if not all fairly recent releases on Blu-ray equal or better what HD DVD has put out (see Tears of the Sun review on High Def Digest). True, Blu-ray came out of the gates slow, but are very quickly stomping out any PQ issues and/or player (Samsung) issues.
Besides, with H.264 encoded movies (Disney, Fox, and Sony) along with 50 GB movies due out in a month from Blu-ray backers, I think you'll find HD DVD getting less and less viable as time goes on. To further the damage HD DVD will be receiving in this fourth quarter, they'll have to contend with the plethora of players coming out of Panasonic, Pioneer, and Sony (both standalone and the PS3) which will surely trump the measely 25,000 units Toshiba has managed to ship. Approximately 1 million Blu-ray players or 25,000 HD DVD players? Hmmm....not real hard to see who'll be winning by year's end.
Down with Sony! they are screwing up the market they need to get out of the way...
and let the DvD forum do what it has been doing for years now with dvd.
Im buying HD so i know my future collection will be viable.
Again the FUD you are spewing has been refuted many a time on this thread. In reality, it is Toshiba who is screwing up the market, as they are the sole hardware manufacturer for HD DVD right now (they'll have two when Microsoft releases their Xbox 360 add-on which have been historically proven to be failures--see Sega). Do you really want to see the 170+ companies supporting Blu-ray? Most DVD Forum members support Blu-ray,...but under the BDA umbrella. So, do some research and for goodness sake, buy HD DVD if you want to,...if it is paper weights you are interested in in the future.
The future is Blu my friend.
yeah, i knew that.
it's just a sign of them starting to realize they have made some serious blunders. Now if they have a semi-faulty launch like the 360 did with its heating problems it almost 100 percent guarantees the ps3's demise this generation.
Uhh huh. Indeed, I second Blackcat, keep dreaming.
In other news after sitting through presentations from Samsung and Panasonic I will tell you both are hammering the following points, all the top tier consumer electronics companies are supporting Blu-Ray, all of them (Sony, Panasonic, LG and Samsung are the 4 biggest along with Pioneer, Philips and Sharp all being there). They are also making a very big deal that this is one of the few times Sony and Panasonic have agreed on something. Those companies are working very closely with retailers too.
7 of 8 movie studios are supporting Blu-Ray, 5 are exclusive with only Universal being the hold out compared to 3 of 8 and only 1 exclusive on the HD-DVD side and people ultimately won't care about one side or the other without the content to back it up.
Finally ultimately Blu-Ray does offer extra capacity to offer higher quality bit-rates. Once the hardware is sorted Blu-Ray should offer the higher quality.
That's what they are planning to sell on and I suspect they will be successful. I don't give a stuff about the DVD Forum when none of the CE brands that I trust want anything to do with what they are producing. It isn't the CE brands that are out to hammer DRM, that's the movie studios. Sony's problem has been they are both but again Blu-Ray is a lot more than just Sony. They other members of the BDA won't let Sony suicide the format.
As a final note Samsung strongly hinted at a potential price drop to coincide with the PS3. Mind you they were talking in a European region so they were referring to March and not November. Not sure if they will in the States in November or not.
And from what i hear the new blu ray players wont play cds?
No idea where that came from. Both the Samsung player I saw and Panasonic's play CDs and it was demonstrated on one. Neither is intending to drop DVD support either as they don't see BD as a huge advancement like DVD was over VHS so they expect people will keep their old libraries and maybe upgrade later.
For Instance hd dvd is a blue laser technology,it will do 1080p and does have multiple layers,and it is NOT stuck where it is at and wont see further advancement and development like sony would have you beleive!
Any development they do means support is lost for current players. They can't add an extra layer without removing support for current players as it isn't in the specification so ultimately BD Players will always have the extra capacity to play with. Codec development helps both equally.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztec...e#contentSwap1
sennen
interesting:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztec...e#contentSwap1
sennen
Or how about the best solution of them all. Stick with HD DVD whcih is cheaper and more plentiful yet delivers quality that Blu-Ray is only just now catching up with. The answer is clear...HD DVD was the correct format chosen as the DVD successor.
The players offer more features for less money and the quality of the movies overall has been superior to Blu-Ray.
Someone please explain to me why I should pay twice as much for less? Studio support will change. Fox, Disney and Universal weren't making DVDs upon launch but look at today.
Only HD DVD mandates features like TrueHD lossless support, Ethernet and Secondary Audio and Video decoders. Blu-Ray vendors can strip the players to the bone yet still charge you an arm and a leg. The clear choice is HD DVD if you want to watch HD content. If you want to wait and sit around waxing poetic about what is "coming soon" choose Blu-Ray..that's your format.
Or how about the best solution of them all. Stick with HD DVD whcih is cheaper and more plentiful yet delivers quality that Blu-Ray is only just now catching up with.
Considering the two formats are just out of the gate, it's amazing that you're calling the finish line already. Blu-ray may be "just catching up," but guess what, they have plenty more potential and headroom. HD DVD is more or less at full capacity. I'm not holding my breath for triple-layer.
Someone please explain to me why I should pay twice as much for less?
<Inigo Montoya> You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means. </Inigo Montoya>
PS3=$500. Bet on it. Please show me the $250 HD DVD player. Besides, you keep saying you're not partial and are going to buy both anyway. So wouldn't you be paying thrice the price of your theoretical cheap HD DVD player, since you're going to be buying HD DVD (1x price) plus Blu-ray (2x price)? 1+2=3.
Studio support will change. Fox, Disney and Universal weren't making DVDs upon launch but look at today.
There were no viable competitors to DVDs in the last ten years. Nothing that could match it in picture quality or price (videocassettes have always cost more to produce). The comparison is not valid with HD DVD, since that has a competing technology that matches or beats it.
Uhh huh. Indeed, I second Blackcat, keep dreaming.
you trully believe if sony has an issue with it's ps3's on top of all the other bullcrap that it wont make it out of the third spot? man you give sony a lot of credit.
Considering the two formats are just out of the gate, it's amazing that you're calling the finish line already. Blu-ray may be "just catching up," but guess what, they have plenty more potential and headroom. HD DVD is more or less at full capacity. I'm not holding my breath for triple-layer.
Funny thing is no one's talking about the sales of the Samsung BD player. I'm betting they haven't even cracked 7000 players. HD DVD still has 30 more titles than Blu-Ray despite only having %60 of the major studios making movies. More HD DVD titles hit a higher threshold of quality. Sony has cut their Playstation shipsments in half. I'd say if you think this is "catching up" I'd like to know your definition.
ahhhhh the infamous "HD DVD is more or less at full capacity" Most of today's HD DVD movies were encoded months ago using an older VC-1 encoder and they still avg around low 20 GB for the movie itself. In movies like the Last Samurai and Phantom of the Opera both movies have around 8GB of extras. Here's the kicker though...the new VC-1 encoder maintains the same quality but can go as low as 9Mbps. So I expect to see more new movies coming out that are smaller and look better. Dropped the "maxed out" schtick..it simply makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
The PS3 doesn't ship until mid November. That's a ways away distribution will be limited. Let's wait until it actually ships before we start talking about it as a low cost BD player mmmm'kay?
There were no viable competitors to DVDs in the last ten years. Nothing that could match it in picture quality or price (videocassettes have always cost more to produce). The comparison is not valid with HD DVD, since that has a competing technology that matches or beats it.
sigh....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX
Many people in various technology and entertainment communities were afraid that there would be DIVX exclusive releases, and that the then-fledgling DVD format would suffer as a result. Disney, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures, for instance, initially released their films exclusively on the DIVX format. It should be noted that DIVX featured stronger encryption technology than DVD (Triple DES), which may have been a contributing factor to the three aforementioned studios supporting DIVX first.
Notice the parallels? Disney, Fox and Paramount "EXCLUSIVELY" delivered their movies in DIVX and all the studios were wooed by stronger encryption technologies. Notice the similarity with these ideals and Disney and Fox once again going down that same road?
you trully believe if sony has an issue with it's ps3's on top of all the other bullcrap that it wont make it out of the third spot? man you give sony a lot of credit.
Well, considering that, although I love the Wii, the graphics on it are just disappointing, and that my XBOX 360 combines the best attributes of a dutch oven and a windtunnel, I think it's pretty clear that despite it's price, the PS3 is going to be the only acceptably decent console this generation.
So while you may hate Sony, which is fine, the PS3 is by far the best of the three consoles quality-wise, and the one that all the companies are making games for.
Funny thing is no one's talking about the sales of the Samsung BD player. I'm betting they haven't even cracked 7000 players. HD DVD still has 30 more titles than Blu-Ray despite only having %60 of the major studios making movies. More HD DVD titles hit a higher threshold of quality. Sony has cut their Playstation shipsments in half. I'd say if you think this is "catching up" I'd like to know your definition.
Go ahead...I'm waiting...no...no mention of the...ahh, Ok, well, of course you fail to mention in this paragraph that HD DVD had a much hyped three month head start, so pretty much the 30 more titles mumbo jumbo can be taken for what it is worth. Blu-ray will simply eclipse the number of titles of HD DVD in a couple of more months, simple as that.
"More HD DVD titles hit a higher threshold of quality." --Keep telling yourself that.
Even at half the PS3 shipments, you are still talking about 1 million Blu-ray units as compared to 25,000 to 30,000 HD DVD units. The math here is simple, HD DVD will most certainly be getting trumped in the 4th quarter here--and I'm not even putting the many standalone players that will be coming from Panasonic, Sony, and Pioneer next month.
ahhhhh the infamous "HD DVD is more or less at full capacity" Most of today's HD DVD movies were encoded months ago using an older VC-1 encoder and they still avg around low 20 GB for the movie itself. In movies like the Last Samurai and Phantom of the Opera both movies have around 8GB of extras. Here's the kicker though...the new VC-1 encoder maintains the same quality but can go as low as 9Mbps. So I expect to see more new movies coming out that are smaller and look better. Dropped the "maxed out" schtick..it simply makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
No, it doesn't make him look like it doesn't know what he is talking about, as what Kolchak brings up is a VERY valid concern in respect to HD DVD. Furthermore, it has been shown up as such on some articles as well...
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,12.../article.html#
The rival media's physical storage constraints have the potential to be a greater issue in this struggle than many observers have considered up until now. Before HD DVD's launch, I had privately heard rumblings of studio concerns about HD DVD's lower capacity.
Now that I've taken a closer look at the first eight HD DVD movies I received from Warner Brothers and Universal, I can understand why. None of the eight titles could fit on a 15GB single-layer HD DVD, and half came within a mere 5GB of maxing out a 30GB dual-layer disc--even though all relied on the latest, more efficient video codecs (VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC). The movies were The Last Samurai (which topped out at 27.3GB), Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles (25.4GB), The Phantom of the Opera (24.8GB), Jarhead (24.7GB), The Bourne Identity (22.7GB), Serenity (19.6GB), The Fugitive (18.2GB), and Doom (16.5GB).
So your solution is to continue to live by the word of Amir and tout this "newer" VC-1 codec, but regardless, both formats will be using this "newer" VC-1 codec if and when it ever gets here, so your asserted defense of HD DVDs shortcomings still rings hollow.
The PS3 doesn't ship until mid November. That's a ways away distribution will be limited. Let's wait until it actually ships before we start talking about it as a low cost BD player mmmm'kay?
Yeah, limited to 500,000 units at launch and 1 million by the end of the year...what was HD DVD's magic number again? C'mon, just because the launch is like 6 weeks away, you want to ignore the viability of the PS3...well, keeping tunnel vision glasses on and choosing to ignore the inevitable surely does not help your argument.
http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=...UserId=4561231
Quotes of interest...
The big question on my mind going into TGS was PS3. I was hoping to go to the show and see stuff that would demonstrate why I'd spend an extra $200 on a console...and I did. Virtua Fighter 5, White Knight Story, and especially MotorStorm (OMG) were well beyond anything I've seen on the 360. I don't know if you can really tell from the videos we posted, but MotorStorm is just so damn impressive. Every once in a while I'll see a game and just take a step back and think to myself how far the visuals of games have come. Titles like the original Virtua Fighter arcade game, the Daytona USA arcade game, Metal Gear Solid 2 -- with each of these, I distinctly remember having those feelings. MotorStorm was the same for me. The high-res graphics running at 60 FPS with all of those special effects (like mud on your windshield) -- it just looks real. Honestly, I don't know how I'm going to play Excite Truck after having seen this. It's like, on one hand I could be playing this phenomenal looking game that controls really well, or on the other I could play this "kids toy" with last-gen visuals and steering that actually never feels like I'm in complete control. Heck, if Sony adds tilt control to MotorStorm, there really will be no reason for me to play Excite Truck.
The only thing I would disagree in this paragraph was the $200 more on a console comment, as the lower end PS3 now with HDMI 1.3 will only cost you $100 more than the top end Xbox 360.
Maybe it was that Sony just had all of its games running on super sharp flatscreen TVs, but almost everything on PS3 just looked like it was more next-gen to me. It was kind of like the difference between, dare I say it, the PS2 and the Dreamcast. Which, as you know, wasn't that big a deal at first -- the Dreamcast had some fantastic looking second gen games -- but you could still tell the PS2 was a more powerful system (and to reiterate, I'm only talking hardware here -- I know the 360 is in a much different place software-wise). I think that's a rather fair comparison, to be honest -- similarly, as with the PS2, the PS3 is a platform that will distance itself even further once developers get more familiar with the hardware. Julian Eggebrecht of Factor 5 told me that they've only just scratched the surface of what they can do on PS3, and he fully expects all second gen PS3 games -- or certainly all third gen PS3 games -- to run in 1080p.
Looking forward to it!
So yeah, there's a tangible difference in the visual quality between PS3 and the Xbox 360. Does that surprise anyone?
Nope, doesn't suprise me...and it will only get better. The PS3 is going to be one sweet system, with Blu-ray movies to boot. C'mon Apple, just bring me a Mac Pro with a Blu-ray drive come 2007, and all will be perfect!
You are correct there will be vastly more BD-ROM drives in the market by years end. However we do not know with any certainty how many gamers have HDTV and/or care enough about movies. The Xbox 360 addon is under 200 bucks and honestly I'm toying with the idea of getting that instead of a Toshiba A2 because I can game.
Ok onto disc sizes it's not just Amir talking about the VC-1 but Ben Waggoner who's right there on the compression team. This benefits Blu-Ray as well so I don't know where the resistance is coming from. 50GB DL discs are needed in only a few situaiton. I expect a vast majority of Blu-Ray movies to utilize the cheaper SL 25GB.
The PC article you present is very old. Using the software HD DVD playback software you can easily find out the size of the movies. For your own edification and Kolchaks as well. Here's from Rio's ,who is a Blu-Ray supporter, findings
So please would either one of you tell me how HD DVD is almost maxed out? Full Metal Jacket used the most space and ironically it is the poorest quality HD DVD out there. My point isn't to bash Blu-Ray but rather to set people's expectations that 50GB isn't going to miraculously give you better quality. I also wish to hightlight that VC-1 and AVC are getting better by each month and next year we're going to see the file sizes for these movies drop. They will eventually have movies at about 12 Mbps avg which is just a bit over the standard DVD maximum rate. This means plenty of 13-16GB movies that look GREAT.
Wow Marzetta7 I had to dust the cobwebs off of that link.
You are correct there will be vastly more BD-ROM drives in the market by years end. However we do not know with any certainty how many gamers have HDTV and/or care enough about movies. The Xbox 360 addon is under 200 bucks and honestly I'm toying with the idea of getting that instead of a Toshiba A2 because I can game.
Oh? Like one dollar under $200?
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154050
So, not only is it an external player, will cost $199 (making it the same price as a PS3), but will NOT have HDMI as well.
I'll pass, thanks. Why go for this when you can get more movies, more storage, the actual capability of playing games on next gen media, and not worry about the whole no HDMI issue with a PS3 that has a drive built-in?
Where is the outcry over this from those people who indeed think the PS3 is overpriced? Where?
And spare me the, "Well Microsoft is giving you the choice" mantra.
Again these movies did not have access to the new encoder which is far more efficient. So please would either one of you tell me how HD DVD is almost maxed out? Full Metal Jacket used the most space and ironically it is the poorest quality HD DVD out there. My point isn't to bash Blu-Ray but rather to set people's expectations that 50GB isn't going to miraculously give you better quality. I also wish to hightlight that VC-1 and AVC are getting better by each month and next year we're going to see the file sizes for these movies drop. They will eventually have movies at about 12 Mbps avg which is just a bit over the standard DVD maximum rate. This means plenty of 13-16GB movies that look GREAT.
Well, when you consider that 10 of those movies you listed aren't even close to being as long as those all important epics like all three LOTR movies and others and that they are within 5 GB OR LESS from maxing out, you can then comprehend that HD DVD's capacity issue is relevant. Or were you just hoping that Amir's "new" VC-1 codec is going to save the day like China or something? And when you factor in the more advanced extras that will eventually accompany these discs, what then? Will the new VC-1 codec still be saving the day?
I think anyone looking at the chart that I showed easily understands the point I'm making. You're simply being stubborn. HD DVD is not close to maxing out. I've proven that.
LotR EE editions will all come on two discs. Not because they wouldn't fit onto one but because consumers like premium editions with dual discs. Look at Mission Impossible III for proof of this.