The laughable thing is that people are at home today watching great looking HD movies on their HD monitors and there are these fanatics watching their macroblock infested HD feeds telling them to wait. The irony.
EGG f^&*)ING ZACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TOOK DAH WORDS OUT MY MOUF.
this is still a different generation, playstation faithfuls wont be able to say that sony has all the games, all the good games,its not gonna happen. developers are pretty much developing for everyone, the battle is going to come down to those few exclusives, and in my opinion online play.
And speaking of exclusives, here is a big announcement !
Microsoft just announced 2 new halo games being developed besides Halo3. one of them is being produced by peter jackson the other one is called Halo Wars
the game is going back to its roots, going back to what halo 1 was intended to be... real-time strategy
You're correct it'll be about game content and a lot more will be multi-platform because of costs but Microsoft's exclusives are for the most part FPSs, statistically only around 25% of the game market consider that their most important genre. By contrast 55% consider action/adventure or RPGs the most important, the area of Sony's traditional strengths. So great Microsoft is getting exclusives but yet again it is in the area where the Xbox was strong and the simple fact is that wasn't enough.
What's important to the US is very different to what's important to the rest of the world and Microsoft has trouble grasping that. Mind you to their credit they are improving. For starters they were smart enough to leave GoW out from TGS.
Well I'm all for some shock and awe but I tell you going into the 4th quarter with players that will average over $1000 is going to be shock and awe in the most negative of ways. Consumers are used to seeing laptops for $350 and other great deals. I don't see how Blu-Ray can make a meaningful impact with such expensive players. At best the quality will only equal what the $500 HD DVD player can do.
...
The laughable thing is that people are at home today watching great looking HD movies on their HD monitors and there are these fanatics watching their macroblock infested HD feeds telling them to wait. The irony.
Here's my basic problem with your arguments, you assume early adopters make up the market and they don't. Reality is first generation players will only be purchased by a very small number of people. The manufacturers love them because they mean they can launch new formats but they are a very slim minority. Most people if they see a wall of providers vs 1 cheaper provider, which they will in Q4, will just walk away and wait for prices to drop, which they will. Samsung is already hinting at a price drop around March next year and unlike Toshiba the BD player producers aren't producing them at a loss, with the exception of the PS3 but that's a different market. The PS3 will also help drop prices for BD players as components will be ramped up for that market. Microsoft's HD-DVD player will never approach the penetration of Blu-Ray in the PS3 unless they add it in to the 360 and kill off their other models.
Here's the basic facts as they stand, Samsung's player sucked. Early HD-DVD content looked better but more recently Blu-Ray content has caught up and looks better or at least similar quality, and they haven't gone to DL discs yet for most of them. Blu-Ray content numbers will also likely overtake HD-DVD content by year end as more players are released and the PS3 hits the market.
HD-DVD is cheaper but Toshiba is taking a loss on their hardware, which they can't sustain. They are counting on a victory and later royalties to fix their early losses. If they don't win early, which looks very unlikely, ultimately they will have to start considering a profitable player. Q4 '06 and Q1 '07 marks the time when Blu-Ray will really enter into the market. Samsung has at least made sure there was a token product but it simply wasn't very good. Pioneer's product in particular is aimed at early adopters, people who will spend big money for quality. With Panasonic already hosting launches too behind closed doors (no products shipping yet to retailers) and Sony well on the way all of a sudden Toshiba will have a lot more competition. But the biggy is and always will be HD-DVD lacks support among both movie studios and CE companies and there is very little sign that is going to change and it will get harder as BD players pick up momentum regardless of their price.
who cares that there are new games coming from the halo franchise? apparently many people, since the announcement yesterday the Halo Wars forum has been getting bombarded. Peter Jackson is producing the halo movie, that is why its a big deal, if he wasn't, then yeah i'd be like ok who cares?
You're so deep into your MS mania that you can't seem to read anything into a posting but your own attitude. My whole paragraph was about "who cares if Peter Jackson is making a movie?" You still haven't given me any reason why I should care. He was a one-hit wonder (the LOTR trilogy). Kong fizzled. I barely remember watching the 3+ hours of it. Where was the unbeatable Peter Jackson in the last Oscars? All Kong could muster were some minor nominations and wins in sound, art direction and visual effects. In case you didn't know, he directed seven other movies before the trilogy and all of them bombed, including the Michael J. Fox flick, "The Frighteners." Tell me again why I should care if Peter Jackson is doing anything at all.
You're correct it'll be about game content and a lot more will be multi-platform because of costs but Microsoft's exclusives are for the most part FPSs, statistically only around 25% of the game market consider that their most important genre. By contrast 55% consider action/adventure or RPGs the most important, the area of Sony's traditional strengths. So great Microsoft is getting exclusives but yet again it is in the area where the Xbox was strong and the simple fact is that wasn't enough.
What's important to the US is very different to what's important to the rest of the world and Microsoft has trouble grasping that. Mind you to their credit they are improving. For starters they were smart enough to leave GoW out from TGS.
telomar where did you get those numbers? the biggest genre in U.S house holds last time i checked at IGN was actually sports/fps. RPG? no, hell no, rpg's are not that popular here in the states. But i see you bundled action/advantage AND RPG... ahh.
greg- sony's other departments, mainly electronics, have been going down the tube. they have low credibility right now at this point.
i mean, you have the head of their gaming division Kutagari saying "if you want a ps3, work harder" lmao, yeah ok? work harder so i can save sony's butt? wtf?
this is an apple forum, and i'm sure many hate microsoft but i'm sorry their gaming division is on point.
marzetta- the big difference here is that microsoft (surprisingly) is giving you options! options! they aren't force feeding you the hd-dvd drive, or the hdmi cables.
Kolchak- i dont know why you should care? frankly i dont care that you dont care, many other people DO care that he is involved. i wasn't a big fan of the LOTR movies, but he's not directing, he's producing. he knows about big budget movies and its good to have someone like that heading the project.
i to hated kong, but it got nominations like you said, and for the most important things that he will bring to the Halo movie
I'd agree with what you state but Toshiba is a well known company. When people see the second generation hardware they won't be put off. They'll wonder why the Blu-Ray players are more expensive. They'll probably get lied to by the Best Buy rep spouting some mumbo jumbo about 1080p. I don't think the Xbox add on will hit anywhere near the penetration of the PS3 but in all fairness Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy into HD DVD by bundling it with the console. If given the choice to buy a base level PS3 for $299 sans BD-ROM or purchase a $599 unit I bet you'd see the lower BD-ROM'less PS3 dominate in sales. One thing that we do know is that EVERY HD DVD add on will be used for movies. It's a perfect 1:1 mapping. You can't say that with Blu-Ray ..it's a Trojan Horse that no one knows the outcome to.
Sony's announced what 4 50GB DL discs? Clearly the yields are very poor and honestly It's beginning to look like 50GB DL discs will not be the norm. Plus I sense that some people "assume" that tossing more storage at video automatically improves the video. These same people are the onces scratching their head when they find that a 15GB HD DVD discs can look as good as a 25GB Blu-Ray disc. It's never quite that easy.
I do not believe Toshiba is taking a loss on the hardware with the Generation 2 stuff. They do not have the 5.1 Analog outputs and they have switched to Core Duo chips which are more plentiful. If Apple can ship a Mac mini with a Dual Core 1.66Ghz, 2.5" SATA hard drive, RAM and miniture casing and motherboard for $499 including software Toshiba can clearly make this device above cost.
Quote:
But the biggy is and always will be HD-DVD lacks support among both movie studios and CE companies and there is very little sign that is going to change and it will get harder as BD players pick up momentum regardless of their price.
Perhaps you're not listening to the right people. There are a lot of rumblings that changes are coming. I doubt we see huge changes this year as everyone prepares for the seasonal rush but early next year at CES 2007 I think you see a whole new level of support. If your a Blu-Ray fan you're not seeing it but if you're a HD DVD fan you're seeing action by Liteon to produce more HD DVD drives. You're seeing slm profile HD DVD players proliferating and now are in 7 brands of laptops. You're seeing the costs of replicating a DL30 GB disc reach parity with a SL25 BD-ROM. You're seeing Twin Format add another layer enablling 30/4.7 single side or 8.5GB/15GB Single side discs in process of ratification.
You're seeing Blu-Ray continue to stumble. Sony delays their player until mid Nov. The PS3 launch is cut in half. Talk of Pioneer jettisoning their 1st gen player in like a couple of months has sprang up. The lack of slm profile drives for laptops is prevalent. These are not the actions of a platform that is going to make serious inroads. Merely matching the quality of HD DVD (which they should have been in the first place) is expected and dare I say people truly expected for Blu-Ray to be demonstrably superior.
Woulda coulda shoulda.
HD DVD has delivered product that continues to improve and looks stellar for half the price. They've exceeded expectations whilst Blu-Ray has not met expectations. Period.
It will be interesting to see who has the last laugh in this marathon thread. I'll cast my vote for Blu-Ray to show I'm not just a fence sitter. Likely the most prophetic statement about this race came from Telomar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telomar
Here's my basic problem with your arguments, you assume early adopters make up the market and they don't. Reality is first generation players will only be purchased by a very small number of people.
Personally, I'm a late adopter, and there are more of us than early adopters. But the great masses in the middle will determine which side wins, and that will hopefully happen soon to end this war.
I don't have any data, but I'd be willing to bet that most folks don't even own an HDTV yet. It has not been all that long since prices have come down, in a range where the average family can consider it. Yet there are enough sets out there that a market trend should be felt by next year. We live in very interesting times.
I'm kind of with Snoopy on this one. Whichever bandwagon earlier adopters jump on doesn't mean squat. It's the consumer market that is going to determine the winner, that is if there is a winner. Consumers might just say the present DVD format is good enough and neither HD nor BR get the market shares necessary to survive beyond a niche format.
Couple of questions. Murch, you're a great fan of HD. Have you bought a player yet?
Is anyone in this thread old enough to remember when DVDs came out? If so, what price point did you or your parents buy their first DVD player?
In my case it was $450 but, and this is a big but, the convenience and cost was superior to the laserdiscs I had been buying. I'm not sure either HD formats offer a compelling reason to buy now. Maybe in three or four years when it's time to replace my XBR 36" CRT TV with a plasma but definitely not now.
I think too many of the HD and BR supporters are looking at the situation based on their hopes and aspirations and are ignoring the general consumer reality.
Is anyone in this thread old enough to remember when DVDs came out? If so, what price point did you or your parents buy their first DVD player?
$89.95! But then I said I'm a late adopter. However, before we bought a DVD player we got by using a Sony PS2 to watch DVDs. I think we will see a repeat of this with the PS3, as other have also said.
Is anyone in this thread old enough to remember when DVDs came out? If so, what price point did you or your parents buy their first DVD player?
In my case it was $450 but, and this is a big but, the convenience and cost was superior to the laserdiscs I had been buying.
I'm sure we all remember a time before DVDs. They're not that old. I was a very late adopter myself. I waited until they were about $120 on the eBay market. But like you, I was a laserdisc owner and didn't have a pressing need to upgrade until there were a few DVDs I wanted that weren't available on LD. Nowadays, I much prefer DVDs because they're so much easier to handle than the big, heavy LDs. Only a couple of them remain unreplaced in my library only because they've never made it to DVD, although there's another 30 pounds of them or so that I never got around to selling on eBay. Too late now.
Consumers might just say the present DVD format is good enough and neither HD nor BR get the market shares necessary to survive beyond a niche format.
I originally thought this too but once you see a good demonstration it really is very easy to appreciate high definition content on an HDTV. Add to that Hollywood wants a new format so they can have better content protection (CSS has certainly failed) and CE companies want it so they can sell a new round of devices and I think there's very little chance that one won't take off. It won't take off as quickly as DVD but with time and falling prices I am sure one will take off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir
the biggest genre in U.S house holds last time i checked at IGN was actually sports/fps. RPG? no, hell no, rpg's are not that popular here in the states. But i see you bundled action/advantage AND RPG... ahh.
You're kind of making my point about Microsoft with the 360 for me. I'll just repeat what I said:
Quote:
What's important to the US is very different to what's important to the rest of the world and Microsoft has trouble grasping that. Mind you to their credit they are improving.
Those results were worldwide and not for just the US. There's a very good reason Microsoft is strong in the US with their strong FPS and sports games but weaker in Europe and especially in Japan where the emphasis is on different styles of games. Sony has been average in FPSs while being strong in a lot of other areas and it allowed them to totally decimate the Xbox worldwide, even though the Xbox was reasonably strong in the US compared to their worldwide figures. Nintendo is almost entirely absent from FPSs and they compose a decent amount of the market with the DS and even the underperforming GC.
RPGs were actually the top performer if you are wondering. What surprises me is that 3 genres covered 80% of people's choices. Fighting, racing, sims, strategy, all didn't do so well. I would have expected sims, sports, racing and strategy to all pick up more than 1 - 6% each. Also keep in mind the types of games people play on the DS. They are very different again and those people are included in that survey too.
September 28, 2006 - Though given long-circulating rumors, it may not be shocking to our regular readers, Bethesda Softworks today announced that The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, the acclaimed RPG which has already wowed Xbox 360 and PC gamers, will arrive for the launch of PlayStation 3. Further, the company is adapting the game for portable play in the form of The Elder Scrolls Travels: Oblivion for the PSP.
The Elder Scrolls IV arrived for PC and Xbox 360 in March, and quickly nabbed numerous high scores and Game of the Year nominations -- not to mention grabbing hours upon hours from players lost in its expansive landscape and open-ended story. Along with advanced A.I. and character customization, Oblivion features lush graphics, plentiful side-quests. The game's soundtrack has won awards and its voice cast includes Patrick Stewart, Sean Bean, Terrance Stamp, and Lynda Carter.
For now, Bethesda isn't detailing just how Oblivion on the PlayStation 3 will differ from its forebears, though there's little doubt Sony's new machine can handle the game's detailed visuals and epic scope. The company has said even less about the PSP title, except that it is slated to arrive in spring 2007.
As for the main attraction, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for PlayStation 3 is scheduled to arrive in North America on November 17 -- the same day the console itself reaches (and disappears from) retail shelves. The game will reach Europe in March, simultaneous with PS3's launch in that territory.
Well, sony seem to have been in the wars recently. No doubt the Blu-ray is cooler in every regard than hd-dvd. Everyone's waiting for it, I have one in my new vaio and it is indeed the schiznit, the only problem with it is that I now need about twice the time to burn a cd for my car. The question is can sony get their act together?
And for the chaps like Hmurchison who will no doubt say "I hate blanket statements like there's no doubt Blu ray is cooler" well, bigger capacity, the likes of many more companies on board (admittedly some ARE scratching their heads) and the image that blu ray has. It sounds cooler, everyone knows just what blu ray is, kids are waiting for the PS3 with baited breath, its been successfully hyped, and it's specs are indeed better than that of the tongue-twisting hd-dvd.
Well given over 50% of people in May didn't actually know that DVDs are not HD I'm not sure how true that is.
That's because the term "High Deff" is realitive. Back in the days of VHS, DVD *WAS* considered HD... People don't really want to know that in 4 years something better will come along. They're happy with what they have and if the modern world didn't keep pushing them, they would never upgrade.
Well, sony seem to have been in the wars recently. No doubt the Blu-ray is cooler in every regard than hd-dvd. Everyone's waiting for it, I have one in my new vaio and it is indeed the schiznit, the only problem with it is that I now need about twice the time to burn a cd for my car. The question is can sony get their act together?
And for the chaps like Hmurchison who will no doubt say "I hate blanket statements like there's no doubt Blu ray is cooler" well, bigger capacity, the likes of many more companies on board (admittedly some ARE scratching their heads) and the image that blu ray has. It sounds cooler, everyone knows just what blu ray is, kids are waiting for the PS3 with baited breath, its been successfully hyped, and it's specs are indeed better than that of the tongue-twisting hd-dvd.
And what was that graph about?
you need to rethink all of this.
i haven't seen anyone truly give a damn yet about either bluray or hd-dvd.
ps3 has had nothing but blunders left and right. it's marketing and hype machine took a serious hit, their trying to rebuild.
Fox has a new Blu-ray site, listing their new and upcoming releases...
"The Sentinel"?! Jesu Christo! How many players is THAT going to move? Where are my uncanny X-Men?! I was hoping Fox would do a day-and-date release of "Last Stand" tomorrow.
Well, sony seem to have been in the wars recently. No doubt the Blu-ray is cooler in every regard than hd-dvd. Everyone's waiting for it, I have one in my new vaio and it is indeed the schiznit, the only problem with it is that I now need about twice the time to burn a cd for my car. The question is can sony get their act together?
And for the chaps like Hmurchison who will no doubt say "I hate blanket statements like there's no doubt Blu ray is cooler" well, bigger capacity, the likes of many more companies on board (admittedly some ARE scratching their heads) and the image that blu ray has. It sounds cooler, everyone knows just what blu ray is, kids are waiting for the PS3 with baited breath, its been successfully hyped, and it's specs are indeed better than that of the tongue-twisting hd-dvd.
And what was that graph about?
No ..hmurchison knows the capacity lead is with HD DVD with Dual Sided Dual-Layer discs. That gives us 60GB of data compatible with today's players and 90GB of data with Triple-Layer Dual Sided. If more storage is "cooler" then I'm still on top with HD DVD.
Most Blu-Ray fans don't know the specs beyond storage and what studios and CE vendors are supporting Blu-Ray so it's a bit like arguing with an infant. Looking deeper at the specs reveals that the bargain basement HD DVD player will be more well appointed than most BD players.
To answer OldCodger's question. I do not have a HD DVD player yet. I"m likely going to pick up an HD-A2 when they become available next month regardless of whether I have an HDTV or not. I haven't decided what I want to do there quite honestly.
Comments
Wait for the PS3
Wait for the Sony/Pioneer
Wait for the 4th quarter
Wait until DL 50GB disc get here.
The laughable thing is that people are at home today watching great looking HD movies on their HD monitors and there are these fanatics watching their macroblock infested HD feeds telling them to wait. The irony.
EGG f^&*)ING ZACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TOOK DAH WORDS OUT MY MOUF.
this is still a different generation, playstation faithfuls wont be able to say that sony has all the games, all the good games,its not gonna happen. developers are pretty much developing for everyone, the battle is going to come down to those few exclusives, and in my opinion online play.
And speaking of exclusives, here is a big announcement !
Microsoft just announced 2 new halo games being developed besides Halo3. one of them is being produced by peter jackson the other one is called Halo Wars
you can find the trailer here http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/8...36/vids_1.html
the game is going back to its roots, going back to what halo 1 was intended to be... real-time strategy
You're correct it'll be about game content and a lot more will be multi-platform because of costs but Microsoft's exclusives are for the most part FPSs, statistically only around 25% of the game market consider that their most important genre. By contrast 55% consider action/adventure or RPGs the most important, the area of Sony's traditional strengths. So great Microsoft is getting exclusives but yet again it is in the area where the Xbox was strong and the simple fact is that wasn't enough.
What's important to the US is very different to what's important to the rest of the world and Microsoft has trouble grasping that. Mind you to their credit they are improving. For starters they were smart enough to leave GoW out from TGS.
Well I'm all for some shock and awe but I tell you going into the 4th quarter with players that will average over $1000 is going to be shock and awe in the most negative of ways. Consumers are used to seeing laptops for $350 and other great deals. I don't see how Blu-Ray can make a meaningful impact with such expensive players. At best the quality will only equal what the $500 HD DVD player can do.
...
The laughable thing is that people are at home today watching great looking HD movies on their HD monitors and there are these fanatics watching their macroblock infested HD feeds telling them to wait. The irony.
Here's my basic problem with your arguments, you assume early adopters make up the market and they don't. Reality is first generation players will only be purchased by a very small number of people. The manufacturers love them because they mean they can launch new formats but they are a very slim minority. Most people if they see a wall of providers vs 1 cheaper provider, which they will in Q4, will just walk away and wait for prices to drop, which they will. Samsung is already hinting at a price drop around March next year and unlike Toshiba the BD player producers aren't producing them at a loss, with the exception of the PS3 but that's a different market. The PS3 will also help drop prices for BD players as components will be ramped up for that market. Microsoft's HD-DVD player will never approach the penetration of Blu-Ray in the PS3 unless they add it in to the 360 and kill off their other models.
Here's the basic facts as they stand, Samsung's player sucked. Early HD-DVD content looked better but more recently Blu-Ray content has caught up and looks better or at least similar quality, and they haven't gone to DL discs yet for most of them. Blu-Ray content numbers will also likely overtake HD-DVD content by year end as more players are released and the PS3 hits the market.
HD-DVD is cheaper but Toshiba is taking a loss on their hardware, which they can't sustain. They are counting on a victory and later royalties to fix their early losses. If they don't win early, which looks very unlikely, ultimately they will have to start considering a profitable player. Q4 '06 and Q1 '07 marks the time when Blu-Ray will really enter into the market. Samsung has at least made sure there was a token product but it simply wasn't very good. Pioneer's product in particular is aimed at early adopters, people who will spend big money for quality. With Panasonic already hosting launches too behind closed doors (no products shipping yet to retailers) and Sony well on the way all of a sudden Toshiba will have a lot more competition. But the biggy is and always will be HD-DVD lacks support among both movie studios and CE companies and there is very little sign that is going to change and it will get harder as BD players pick up momentum regardless of their price.
who cares that there are new games coming from the halo franchise? apparently many people, since the announcement yesterday the Halo Wars forum has been getting bombarded. Peter Jackson is producing the halo movie, that is why its a big deal, if he wasn't, then yeah i'd be like ok who cares?
You're so deep into your MS mania that you can't seem to read anything into a posting but your own attitude. My whole paragraph was about "who cares if Peter Jackson is making a movie?" You still haven't given me any reason why I should care. He was a one-hit wonder (the LOTR trilogy). Kong fizzled. I barely remember watching the 3+ hours of it. Where was the unbeatable Peter Jackson in the last Oscars? All Kong could muster were some minor nominations and wins in sound, art direction and visual effects. In case you didn't know, he directed seven other movies before the trilogy and all of them bombed, including the Michael J. Fox flick, "The Frighteners." Tell me again why I should care if Peter Jackson is doing anything at all.
You're correct it'll be about game content and a lot more will be multi-platform because of costs but Microsoft's exclusives are for the most part FPSs, statistically only around 25% of the game market consider that their most important genre. By contrast 55% consider action/adventure or RPGs the most important, the area of Sony's traditional strengths. So great Microsoft is getting exclusives but yet again it is in the area where the Xbox was strong and the simple fact is that wasn't enough.
What's important to the US is very different to what's important to the rest of the world and Microsoft has trouble grasping that. Mind you to their credit they are improving. For starters they were smart enough to leave GoW out from TGS.
telomar where did you get those numbers? the biggest genre in U.S house holds last time i checked at IGN was actually sports/fps. RPG? no, hell no, rpg's are not that popular here in the states. But i see you bundled action/advantage AND RPG... ahh.
greg- sony's other departments, mainly electronics, have been going down the tube. they have low credibility right now at this point.
i mean, you have the head of their gaming division Kutagari saying "if you want a ps3, work harder" lmao, yeah ok? work harder so i can save sony's butt? wtf?
this is an apple forum, and i'm sure many hate microsoft but i'm sorry their gaming division is on point.
marzetta- the big difference here is that microsoft (surprisingly) is giving you options! options! they aren't force feeding you the hd-dvd drive, or the hdmi cables.
Kolchak- i dont know why you should care? frankly i dont care that you dont care, many other people DO care that he is involved. i wasn't a big fan of the LOTR movies, but he's not directing, he's producing. he knows about big budget movies and its good to have someone like that heading the project.
i to hated kong, but it got nominations like you said, and for the most important things that he will bring to the Halo movie
sound, art direction, and visual effects.
again, he isn't directing
I'd agree with what you state but Toshiba is a well known company. When people see the second generation hardware they won't be put off. They'll wonder why the Blu-Ray players are more expensive. They'll probably get lied to by the Best Buy rep spouting some mumbo jumbo about 1080p. I don't think the Xbox add on will hit anywhere near the penetration of the PS3 but in all fairness Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy into HD DVD by bundling it with the console. If given the choice to buy a base level PS3 for $299 sans BD-ROM or purchase a $599 unit I bet you'd see the lower BD-ROM'less PS3 dominate in sales. One thing that we do know is that EVERY HD DVD add on will be used for movies. It's a perfect 1:1 mapping. You can't say that with Blu-Ray ..it's a Trojan Horse that no one knows the outcome to.
Sony's announced what 4 50GB DL discs? Clearly the yields are very poor and honestly It's beginning to look like 50GB DL discs will not be the norm. Plus I sense that some people "assume" that tossing more storage at video automatically improves the video. These same people are the onces scratching their head when they find that a 15GB HD DVD discs can look as good as a 25GB Blu-Ray disc. It's never quite that easy.
I do not believe Toshiba is taking a loss on the hardware with the Generation 2 stuff. They do not have the 5.1 Analog outputs and they have switched to Core Duo chips which are more plentiful. If Apple can ship a Mac mini with a Dual Core 1.66Ghz, 2.5" SATA hard drive, RAM and miniture casing and motherboard for $499 including software Toshiba can clearly make this device above cost.
But the biggy is and always will be HD-DVD lacks support among both movie studios and CE companies and there is very little sign that is going to change and it will get harder as BD players pick up momentum regardless of their price.
Perhaps you're not listening to the right people. There are a lot of rumblings that changes are coming. I doubt we see huge changes this year as everyone prepares for the seasonal rush but early next year at CES 2007 I think you see a whole new level of support. If your a Blu-Ray fan you're not seeing it but if you're a HD DVD fan you're seeing action by Liteon to produce more HD DVD drives. You're seeing slm profile HD DVD players proliferating and now are in 7 brands of laptops. You're seeing the costs of replicating a DL30 GB disc reach parity with a SL25 BD-ROM. You're seeing Twin Format add another layer enablling 30/4.7 single side or 8.5GB/15GB Single side discs in process of ratification.
You're seeing Blu-Ray continue to stumble. Sony delays their player until mid Nov. The PS3 launch is cut in half. Talk of Pioneer jettisoning their 1st gen player in like a couple of months has sprang up. The lack of slm profile drives for laptops is prevalent. These are not the actions of a platform that is going to make serious inroads. Merely matching the quality of HD DVD (which they should have been in the first place) is expected and dare I say people truly expected for Blu-Ray to be demonstrably superior.
Woulda coulda shoulda.
HD DVD has delivered product that continues to improve and looks stellar for half the price. They've exceeded expectations whilst Blu-Ray has not met expectations. Period.
Here's my basic problem with your arguments, you assume early adopters make up the market and they don't. Reality is first generation players will only be purchased by a very small number of people.
Personally, I'm a late adopter, and there are more of us than early adopters. But the great masses in the middle will determine which side wins, and that will hopefully happen soon to end this war.
I don't have any data, but I'd be willing to bet that most folks don't even own an HDTV yet. It has not been all that long since prices have come down, in a range where the average family can consider it. Yet there are enough sets out there that a market trend should be felt by next year. We live in very interesting times.
Couple of questions. Murch, you're a great fan of HD. Have you bought a player yet?
Is anyone in this thread old enough to remember when DVDs came out? If so, what price point did you or your parents buy their first DVD player?
In my case it was $450 but, and this is a big but, the convenience and cost was superior to the laserdiscs I had been buying. I'm not sure either HD formats offer a compelling reason to buy now. Maybe in three or four years when it's time to replace my XBR 36" CRT TV with a plasma but definitely not now.
I think too many of the HD and BR supporters are looking at the situation based on their hopes and aspirations and are ignoring the general consumer reality.
Is anyone in this thread old enough to remember when DVDs came out? If so, what price point did you or your parents buy their first DVD player?
$89.95! But then I said I'm a late adopter. However, before we bought a DVD player we got by using a Sony PS2 to watch DVDs. I think we will see a repeat of this with the PS3, as other have also said.
Is anyone in this thread old enough to remember when DVDs came out? If so, what price point did you or your parents buy their first DVD player?
In my case it was $450 but, and this is a big but, the convenience and cost was superior to the laserdiscs I had been buying.
I'm sure we all remember a time before DVDs. They're not that old. I was a very late adopter myself. I waited until they were about $120 on the eBay market. But like you, I was a laserdisc owner and didn't have a pressing need to upgrade until there were a few DVDs I wanted that weren't available on LD. Nowadays, I much prefer DVDs because they're so much easier to handle than the big, heavy LDs. Only a couple of them remain unreplaced in my library only because they've never made it to DVD, although there's another 30 pounds of them or so that I never got around to selling on eBay. Too late now.
Consumers might just say the present DVD format is good enough and neither HD nor BR get the market shares necessary to survive beyond a niche format.
I originally thought this too but once you see a good demonstration it really is very easy to appreciate high definition content on an HDTV. Add to that Hollywood wants a new format so they can have better content protection (CSS has certainly failed) and CE companies want it so they can sell a new round of devices and I think there's very little chance that one won't take off. It won't take off as quickly as DVD but with time and falling prices I am sure one will take off.
the biggest genre in U.S house holds last time i checked at IGN was actually sports/fps. RPG? no, hell no, rpg's are not that popular here in the states. But i see you bundled action/advantage AND RPG... ahh.
You're kind of making my point about Microsoft with the 360 for me. I'll just repeat what I said:
What's important to the US is very different to what's important to the rest of the world and Microsoft has trouble grasping that. Mind you to their credit they are improving.
Those results were worldwide and not for just the US. There's a very good reason Microsoft is strong in the US with their strong FPS and sports games but weaker in Europe and especially in Japan where the emphasis is on different styles of games. Sony has been average in FPSs while being strong in a lot of other areas and it allowed them to totally decimate the Xbox worldwide, even though the Xbox was reasonably strong in the US compared to their worldwide figures. Nintendo is almost entirely absent from FPSs and they compose a decent amount of the market with the DS and even the underperforming GC.
RPGs were actually the top performer if you are wondering. What surprises me is that 3 genres covered 80% of people's choices. Fighting, racing, sims, strategy, all didn't do so well. I would have expected sims, sports, racing and strategy to all pick up more than 1 - 6% each. Also keep in mind the types of games people play on the DS. They are very different again and those people are included in that survey too.
It's official: The Elder Scrolls IV is coming to PlayStation 3 and the PSP.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/736/736244p1.html
September 28, 2006 - Though given long-circulating rumors, it may not be shocking to our regular readers, Bethesda Softworks today announced that The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, the acclaimed RPG which has already wowed Xbox 360 and PC gamers, will arrive for the launch of PlayStation 3. Further, the company is adapting the game for portable play in the form of The Elder Scrolls Travels: Oblivion for the PSP.
The Elder Scrolls IV arrived for PC and Xbox 360 in March, and quickly nabbed numerous high scores and Game of the Year nominations -- not to mention grabbing hours upon hours from players lost in its expansive landscape and open-ended story. Along with advanced A.I. and character customization, Oblivion features lush graphics, plentiful side-quests. The game's soundtrack has won awards and its voice cast includes Patrick Stewart, Sean Bean, Terrance Stamp, and Lynda Carter.
For now, Bethesda isn't detailing just how Oblivion on the PlayStation 3 will differ from its forebears, though there's little doubt Sony's new machine can handle the game's detailed visuals and epic scope. The company has said even less about the PSP title, except that it is slated to arrive in spring 2007.
As for the main attraction, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for PlayStation 3 is scheduled to arrive in North America on November 17 -- the same day the console itself reaches (and disappears from) retail shelves. The game will reach Europe in March, simultaneous with PS3's launch in that territory.
Great suprise launch title...
Oblivion Launches with PS3
It's official: The Elder Scrolls IV is coming to PlayStation 3 and the PSP.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/736/736244p1.html
Great suprise launch title...
Oh man I hate Oblivion so much.
And for the chaps like Hmurchison who will no doubt say "I hate blanket statements like there's no doubt Blu ray is cooler" well, bigger capacity, the likes of many more companies on board (admittedly some ARE scratching their heads) and the image that blu ray has. It sounds cooler, everyone knows just what blu ray is, kids are waiting for the PS3 with baited breath, its been successfully hyped, and it's specs are indeed better than that of the tongue-twisting hd-dvd.
And what was that graph about?
everyone knows just what blu ray is
Well given over 50% of people in May didn't actually know that DVDs are not HD I'm not sure how true that is.
Well given over 50% of people in May didn't actually know that DVDs are not HD I'm not sure how true that is.
That's because the term "High Deff" is realitive. Back in the days of VHS, DVD *WAS* considered HD... People don't really want to know that in 4 years something better will come along. They're happy with what they have and if the modern world didn't keep pushing them, they would never upgrade.
Well, sony seem to have been in the wars recently. No doubt the Blu-ray is cooler in every regard than hd-dvd. Everyone's waiting for it, I have one in my new vaio and it is indeed the schiznit, the only problem with it is that I now need about twice the time to burn a cd for my car. The question is can sony get their act together?
And for the chaps like Hmurchison who will no doubt say "I hate blanket statements like there's no doubt Blu ray is cooler" well, bigger capacity, the likes of many more companies on board (admittedly some ARE scratching their heads) and the image that blu ray has. It sounds cooler, everyone knows just what blu ray is, kids are waiting for the PS3 with baited breath, its been successfully hyped, and it's specs are indeed better than that of the tongue-twisting hd-dvd.
And what was that graph about?
you need to rethink all of this.
i haven't seen anyone truly give a damn yet about either bluray or hd-dvd.
ps3 has had nothing but blunders left and right. it's marketing and hype machine took a serious hit, their trying to rebuild.
www.foxbd.com
Fox has a new Blu-ray site, listing their new and upcoming releases...
"The Sentinel"?! Jesu Christo! How many players is THAT going to move? Where are my uncanny X-Men?! I was hoping Fox would do a day-and-date release of "Last Stand" tomorrow.
Well, sony seem to have been in the wars recently. No doubt the Blu-ray is cooler in every regard than hd-dvd. Everyone's waiting for it, I have one in my new vaio and it is indeed the schiznit, the only problem with it is that I now need about twice the time to burn a cd for my car. The question is can sony get their act together?
And for the chaps like Hmurchison who will no doubt say "I hate blanket statements like there's no doubt Blu ray is cooler" well, bigger capacity, the likes of many more companies on board (admittedly some ARE scratching their heads) and the image that blu ray has. It sounds cooler, everyone knows just what blu ray is, kids are waiting for the PS3 with baited breath, its been successfully hyped, and it's specs are indeed better than that of the tongue-twisting hd-dvd.
And what was that graph about?
No ..hmurchison knows the capacity lead is with HD DVD with Dual Sided Dual-Layer discs. That gives us 60GB of data compatible with today's players and 90GB of data with Triple-Layer Dual Sided. If more storage is "cooler" then I'm still on top with HD DVD.
Most Blu-Ray fans don't know the specs beyond storage and what studios and CE vendors are supporting Blu-Ray so it's a bit like arguing with an infant. Looking deeper at the specs reveals that the bargain basement HD DVD player will be more well appointed than most BD players.
To answer OldCodger's question. I do not have a HD DVD player yet. I"m likely going to pick up an HD-A2 when they become available next month regardless of whether I have an HDTV or not. I haven't decided what I want to do there quite honestly.