maestro64

AppleZulu said:

maestro64 said:

Obviously we have people on both sides some say people should be forced to get vaccinated and some that say it is personal choice. For those who are upset the Government/Companies has not forcing people to be vaccinated here is the reason why, this dates back to the 1920 100 years ago. When the government mandate the force sterilization of men and women, a "government mandate medical procedure." This went on for 50 yrs until the another Supreme court finally stop the practice.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

The venerated Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the decision upholding the Virginia law that ended a woman's right to be a mother, by saying it was no different than vaccination:

"The judgment finds the facts that have been recited and that Carrie Buck 'is the probable potential parent of socially inadequate offspring, likewise afflicted, that she may be sexually sterilized without detriment to her general health and that her welfare and that of society will be promoted by her sterilization,' and thereupon makes the order. In view of the general declarations of the Legislature and the specific findings of the Court obviously we cannot say as matter of law that the grounds do not exist, and if they exist they justify the result. We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 , 25 S. Ct. 358, 3 Ann. Cas. 765. Three generations of imbeciles are enough." 

Holmes cites this case about smallpox vaccine and even claims in this case if the vaccine may not be the best solution and may harm the person for various health reason the government still have right to force you to be vaccinate for community heath reason.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts there has been a lot of except to this law over the years, however, you notice they not willing to use this case law today.

At the Nuremberg trials, Nazi doctors literally cited Buck v. Bell in their own defense. this should make everyone sick.

Buck v. Bell has never been officially overturned. In 1978, however, one victim of forced sterilization sued the State of Oklahoma before the Supreme Court, and won. The decision resulting from Skinner v. Oklahoma created legal obstacles that effectively put a stop to mass compulsory sterilization. 

Everyone in government know about these cases and they know they will go afoul of the law that prevents them from mandating anything medical.

Our government know they can not mandate anything, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination. Case are already making their ways through the court it going to take years but most likely Companies will also run up against the same laws and rights as the government. Notice no one in the media is talking about this and why the government is not mandting. Becuase they do not want you know you have legal rights to do what is in your best interest.

For those who think it is your right to tell others what to do, think again, you have no such right. nether does the government. However, you are free to do what you want to protect yourself and you are free not to associate with people you do not agree with. In this case if you feel you are at risk then get vaccinated and if you do not think that is enough wear the mask or the whole hazmat suit. Nothing I or anyone else is doing is interfering with your ability to protect yourself.

Also company may run afoul under HIPPA, they are not allow to ask anyone about their medial affairs, thus all these volunteer requirements, which are not really volunteer since they are holding your job over your head, most likely will not pass scrutiny once legally challenged.

It will not stop this current government from ignoring the laws of this land and your personal rights they did it with the rent eviction moratorium. They knew they had no legal ground to stop people from being evicted from property they do not own. But government went ahead and did it anyway, Supreme court set them straight, but they again tried to extend the illegal mandate and got told again to stop. This government is only interest in see what they take away from your verse preserving what is rightfully yours.

That is a BS argument. Vaccination mandates are not forced sterilization. Vaccination mandates have been upheld by the courts, including the current Supreme Court. 

Also, HIPPA is not a thing. HIPAA refers to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. Unless you are part of a healthcare entity, the private protections in HIPAA do not apply. HIPAA does not prevent your employer from asking if you are vaccinated, including asking for proof of it. Even if you are part of a healthcare entity, there are exemptions to restrictions on disclosure of health information as it relates to a public health crisis.

I am tired of BS misinformation being spread on this subject. This misinformation is killing people.

Sorry for my Typo, HIPAA applies to any company providing insurance, they are not allow to know anything about your medical records/condition IE healthcare provider can not provide any information about your health unless you volunteer it yourself thus the reason companies are asking people to self disclose. Again they can not mandate it, your heath matter are your private business and the ADA prohibit someone being fire due to their health as well as other laws. If a company wants proof of vaccination they need to request medical record and you have right not to share that with your imployeer. So it basically the honor system. How do I know this I worked with my companies HR Benfits person and had an issue with the insurance company and HR person made it very clear they were not allow to talk to the insurance company about my medical issue in my case my daughters case, unless I specifically gave permisison to share that specific informaiton, only then could the company know the specifics. HIPAA is broader then just health records being portable, the main part of the law is all records must be private and not to be seen by anyone who is not authorize to view those records.

You obviously did not read the cases, the Buck V Bell relied on the vaccine law from 1902 Jacobson v Massachusetts as justification manidate governement medial procedure and over the years. It has been over written and found to be bad case laws as well as there as except to Jacobson v Massachusetts. If the government thought they had strong standing to mandate and force people they would have envoked Jacobson v Massachusetts and they have not becuase they can not. By the way there are whole communites which as not vaccinate in the country and one of the largest one is the Armish communities in various states. It not BS argument, it is the current state of the laws in this country, if you thing it should be different file a law suit saying your person freedom are infringe by someone not being mandated to be vaccinate see how far that goes. 

The only thing killing people is their own personal responsibility to do rigth thing for themselves. Also what is killing people if their own person health habits but no one is talking about that, this is beyond people who are older and have naturally declining health. If you are going to manadite things which you think is killing people, then mandate no one drive that killed more people prior to this, why not manidate health eating since lots of people die every year from poor health due to poor eating, By the way this effect everyone too since we all pay higher cost becuase its killing people. Tell me how someone getting Covid affect your daily life beside the higher cost we will all now pay.

designr said:

maestro64 said:

Our government know they can not mandate anything, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination.

This is a kind of "backdoor mandate." Not too different from the "backdoor draft" implemented during the past 2-3 decades of wars. And very similar in form to the "backdoor censorship" implemented by "coordinating" with major social media companies to combat "disinformation" and "fake news".

Power always tries to find a way.

And it everyone's constitutional right to fight them every step of the way.

davgreg said:

Science does not care what your politics are or where you go to worship (or not).

I work in healthcare and am directly exposed to confirmed positive and potential Covid infected people every shift I work and I am quite tired of these people who will believe everyone but a qualified and informed scientist or Physician. I had to throw a family member out of our ER last week who refused to comply with our policy and opposed the most polite and reasonable requests to conform. It is tedious to repeatedly deal with this and their behavior is dangerous to staff, visitors and patients.

I am not the lawyer of the family but it seems such a policy could open Apple to potential lawsuits later on. Tim should plainly tell them to get vaccinated or find other work and that they will not be eligible for rehire for refusing to follow policy.

We are far from done with Covid as most of the people on our planet are not vaccinated and the virus will continue to mutate. The Delta variant that is the current dominant one in the US came from India. Expect more waves later on until the bulk of humanity has been vaccinated.

Nobody is more tired of PPE and all the rest than I, but it is well past time we all start acting like responsible adults and do what is necessary to protect the vulnerable and get this virus under control.

You are correct Covid and it is 7 other Covid strains that have been around for 100 yrs are here to stay, SARS is a Cocvid virus and its still around and more deadly. We all have to deal with it. However, we have been dealing with Covid viruses for a long time this one obvious far worse then the flu or common cold which come from very weak virus. Were you throwing people out in the past when they walk in the one of many strains of flu virous some of which were very deadly to people with raspatory issues. No we were not we dealt with it and it affects.

We will never return a zero covid state, and vaccine even as good they are today will never get us to zero by the mere fact even people who have been vaccinated are still get sick.

Right now the data from various research being done show those who have been previous infected have far better immunity against the variant than the vacation alone.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/295712
The Delta variant study in Israel
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762

Israel is one of the few actually tracking the vaccine and cases and its real world effectiveness, they stuck a deal with Pfizer to collect all this information and provide it to Pfizer. To your comment about the so called experts and people not listening to the experts. Many lost creditability because people are able to see for themselves what is happen and it not matching the statements of the experts. When you have expert challenge the fact that the human immune system are not as good a vaccines you have to question what they are thinking. Also many experts are not speaking out due to the fear of losing their jobs. There is very little debate going on around the data or what is actually happening. Most of the data they are using to say this is what needs to happen is base on model not real world data, becuase real world data is very messy and evey human is different. Model should not be used to guide decision when you have real world date, but they keep follow back to the models.

I'll give you my personal experience, myself, wife and son all had chickenpox as children, my daughter was born during the time of the chickenpox vax, she got it (will not go through the decision process) she is now 24 and entering the heath field, thus required to be check for immunities such as chickenpox, 4 yrs ago she still had the immunity last years test no immunity (they tested twice to be sure) she got booster last year, got tested again this year as required, again no immunity, tested twice. Again got another booster and was told if she tests negative again next year she will be required to do the 3 shoot regiment. We are being told she will most likely be required to revaccinate every so many years from this point forward. Getting chickenpox as an adult is far worse than as kid and you better hope not to get while pregnant. My wife an I both get our immunities tested every few years and we still have our immunity to chickenpox to the point now my Dr is saying I should get the shingle vaccine since the pox virus my still active in my system.

I tell people to question everything they are told and see if it make sense and consistent with what we already know.

Obviously we have people on both sides some say people should be forced to get vaccinated and some that say it is personal choice. For those who are upset the Government/Companies has not forcing people to be vaccinated here is the reason why, this dates back to the 1920 100 years ago. When the government mandate the force sterilization of men and women, a "government mandate medical procedure." This went on for 50 yrs until the another Supreme court finally stop the practice.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
Holmes cites this case about smallpox vaccine and even claims in this case if the vaccine may not be the best solution and may harm the person for various health reason the government still have right to force you to be vaccinate for community heath reason.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts there has been a lot of except to this law over the years, however, you notice they not willing to use this case law today.

At the Nuremberg trials, Nazi doctors literally cited Buck v. Bell in their own defense. this should make everyone sick.

Buck v. Bell has never been officially overturned. In 1978, however, one victim of forced sterilization sued the State of Oklahoma before the Supreme Court, and won. The decision resulting from Skinner v. Oklahoma created legal obstacles that effectively put a stop to mass compulsory sterilization. 

Everyone in government know about these cases and they know they will go afoul of the law that prevents them from mandating anything medical.

Here is good summary but does not lay out a case in either direction, https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court

Our government know they can not absolutely mandate, however, they are making it very hard for businesses to operating unless they mandate vaccination. Case are already making their ways through the court it going to take years but most likely Companies will also run up against the same laws and rights as the government. Notice no one in the media is talking about this and why the government is not mandating. Becuase they do not want you know you have legal rights to do what is in your best interest.

For those who think it is your right to tell others what to do, think again, you have no such right. nether does the government. However, you are free to do what you want to protect yourself and you are free not to associate with people you do not agree with. In this case if you feel you are at risk, then get vaccinated and if you do not think that is enough wear the mask or the whole hazmat suit. Nothing I or anyone else is doing is interfering with your ability to protect yourself.

Also companies may run afoul under HIPPA, they are not allow to ask anyone about their medial affairs, thus all these volunteer requirements, which are not really volunteer since they are holding your job over your head, most likely will not pass scrutiny once legally challenged. Much of this is on shaky legal ground and the government is hoping it does not go to the Supreme Court to set precedence they do not like, but than again they have not be the smart about it

It will not stop this current government from ignoring the laws of this land and your personal rights they did it with the rent eviction moratorium. They knew they had no legal ground to stop people from being evicted from property they do not own. But government went ahead and did it anyway, Supreme court set them straight, but they again tried to extend the illegal mandate and got told again to stop. This government is only interest in see what they take away from your verse preserving what is rightfully yours.

hackintoisier said:

I never understood why apps that offer physical goods don’t have to pay commissions on in app purchases,  in stark contrast to apps that offer digital goods. Why this delineation? Uber and Lyft generate billions in revenue that Apple doesn’t get a cut from, yet developers like Netflix, Spotify, and Epic have to collectively pay billions in terms of commissions to Apple from the sale of digital goods. How is that fair? 

My point of view is governments have the right to reign in anticompetitive behavior. There’s no reason why an developer shouldn’t be able to offer its own payment processing system if it is willing to take on the task and risk of doing so. 

All good things come to an end. Apple and Google were able to make billions from the App Store and Play Store, but it was just a matter of time before the hammer dropped as I have predicted for years (and have been ridiculed on this website for saying so). But when you have a company with so much power that it can prohibit other companies from using alternative (and legal) payment processing systems (since doing so would lead to less profits for Apple), it was always a losing battle. It was just a matter of time before the EU or Australia or Korea or the USA acted to stop this behavior. 

Secondly, I believe alternative app stores should be allowed as well. If developers and users want to enter into legal trade to buy and sell legal apps (even if Apple disagrees with such an app) who is Apple to prevent such transactions from occurring if they are otherwise legal? For example, there is no Wifi explorer app on the App Store.  Many such apps exist on android (and even on the Mac). If a developer wanted to make such an app for the iPhone and charge a minimal fee to his/her users, who is Apple to prohibit such a transaction, when it is for a common good and would enhance the utility of the iPhone, and allow users to understand their radio environment and do some wireless network planning?

Apple does not get a cut of Netflix or Spotify subscriptions, as well as Amazon. In the case of Netflix and Amazon they both predate Apple's App store and they already have an web base automatic subscription system. Apple has also said if companies want to set up their own private payment processing and subscription system they are free to do that, they just can not pass the payment processing through the App store or by pass Apple's security systems. i.e. you need to leave the Apple eco system completely to do these transactions. You can not benefit from all the things Apple have put in place and not pay your fair share of the costs along with Apple profits for the privilege.

Just remember iOS is a secure platform for one and only one reason, no one has keys to kingdom beyond Apple. If Apple allow third party stores that mean they have to open the door and allow others to look inside and see the locking mechanism, once you know how the lock works it is easy to figure how to by pass it. Just because you think it is bright idea to do this does not mean it is good idea for everyone. Ask your self at what cost are you willing to pay to have third party stores, what are all the alternatives and what do you loose for giving this up.