danvm

radarthekat said:

boeyc15 said:

IMO The "post PC" world is still chaotic and playing out what it will be. In the US, trucks and SUV are still the best sellers. Will "post PC" turn out less so than imagined?  For most people I know the iPad is the go to home internet communicator(email/internet)/work reference document reader device(PDF,form filler-outer). Voice /text device is iPhone/Samsung etc, which seems to be reaching a plateau in what they can do... i.e. the churn rates will grow longer before upgradea(ala iPad?). For 'work product' it is still the PC/Mac. But also... are not schools more and more turning to Chromebook devices? Then there is the video consumption devices like Apple TV/ Roku. Then there are what seems like 'home services devices' like Echo.
What all this means... don't have a clue... but it seems to me if someone can consolidate this to a few multipurpose devices... or just one main device(computer, server like storage, wifi broadcaster, house services device) with some ancillary interface devices... they may have a winner. IMO Apple is best(if not the only one) positioned to do all that, if that is a better "post PC" path. I also find it interesting Warren Buffett has bought a lot of Apple stock... has he seen behind the curtain? Why is he so sure iPhone will keep Apple revenues so high for the long term investment he is famous for?... interesting times.

whew... what happens when you have a bout of insomnia.

Consolidation of all these devices is unlikely.  There will always be tweeners, like cross-over SUVs, but it will also always make sense to create devices that focus on a specific use.  As Cook related:

Anything can be forced to converge. But the problem is that the products are about tradeoffs. You begin to make tradeoffs to the point where what you have left at the end of the day doesn’t please anyone. You can converge a toaster and a refrigerator, but you know, those things are probably not going to be pleasing to the user.

spheric said:

danvm said:

spheric said:

danvm said:

spheric said:

GeorgeBMac said:

spheric said:

Why force people to buy two great devices rather than one mediocre one? 

Hm. 

Cute line...  But when has Apple made mediocre devices?   They don't tend to do that.

Exactly. 

You get how Apple works. Now you just need to accept that this is why a hybrid isn't going to happen. 

Interesting how MS made a great device in the Surface Pro 4.  Even the customer satisfaction is as high as the iPad.  I MS did it, why Apple can't?

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-surface-apples-ipad-in-customer-satisfaction-dead-heat/

Yes, customer satisfaction with Surface devices is high...among those who actually bought one. 

There is obviously a usage scenario where the compromises the Surface offers are desirable. 

Now, compare sales of Macs, of iPads...and of the Surface. 

Why are you moving to conversation to sales, when my post was related to customer satisfaction?

Because we're talking about Apple building a product.

People are happy with the Surface, but very few people are buying them. It's a tool that doesn't have broad appeal, and its compromises wouldn't make a lot of people happy beyond the few that are buying them. 

spheric said:

danvm said:

spheric said:

GeorgeBMac said:

spheric said:

Why force people to buy two great devices rather than one mediocre one? 

Hm. 

Cute line...  But when has Apple made mediocre devices?   They don't tend to do that.

Exactly. 

You get how Apple works. Now you just need to accept that this is why a hybrid isn't going to happen. 

Interesting how MS made a great device in the Surface Pro 4.  Even the customer satisfaction is as high as the iPad.  I MS did it, why Apple can't?

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-surface-apples-ipad-in-customer-satisfaction-dead-heat/

Yes, customer satisfaction with Surface devices is high...among those who actually bought one. 

There is obviously a usage scenario where the compromises the Surface offers are desirable. 

Now, compare sales of Macs, of iPads...and of the Surface. 

GeorgeBMac said:

danvm said:

GeorgeBMac said:

danvm said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

ireland said:

appex said:

Apple should release a Mac tablet. iOS is a limited jailed-sandboxed toy without an accesible file system and lacking USB port among other shocking limitations.

They can add access to a file system without turning it into a Mac; the Mac still exists; what specifically would you like a USB port for? Sounds like you may be looking for a Mac—they are here.

So, why are you building a wall around the Mac separating it and protecting it from incursions by the tablet world?

Jobs knew that the key was not in the product but in what the product did for the consumer.  A touchscreen tablet with a file system, available keyboard and mouse and a USB-C port would be invaluable.  It would not be a tablet.  Neither would it be a laptop.   It would be both.  

Because the leaders of design and software at apple (including Jobs) have told us specifically that they tried touch Macs and they sucked. different use cases. they've thought of anything you've thought of and tried it already. 

Those leaders you mention, including SJ, explain that the reason was related to ergonomics.  He said that touchscreen notebooks "gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible."  
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-touch-screen-mac-2010-10

But now looks like Apple change their mind, and you see in the add the iPad + Smart Keyboard being used in vertical position.  IMO, the Surface Pro did the right thing by giving the user the option to use touch or the trackpad, and it's better than using an iPad in vertical position, something Apple already say it's wrong. 

No, the IPad pro can be used either as a great tablet OR (at this point) a shitty laptop.   Once they add a mouse & cursor (and maybe USB-C and file system) it can be a great laptop as well as a great tablet.  There's no compromise.   There's no loss.

We don't know if it will be a great laptop, since as today, Apple has declined to do so.  Until then, the iPad + Smart Keyboard is, as Steve Jobs said, "ergonomically terrible". 

You're still missing the point:   Jobs was talking about touch screen laptops -- and he was right.  
This discussion is about producing a tablet that can function equally well as either a tablet or laptop with a keyboard and mouse.

Why force people to buy two devices when one will do?   If Apple doesn't do it, Samsung will.  It's not a matter of IF, it's WHEN?

spheric said:

danvm said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

ireland said:

appex said:

Apple should release a Mac tablet. iOS is a limited jailed-sandboxed toy without an accesible file system and lacking USB port among other shocking limitations.

They can add access to a file system without turning it into a Mac; the Mac still exists; what specifically would you like a USB port for? Sounds like you may be looking for a Mac—they are here.

So, why are you building a wall around the Mac separating it and protecting it from incursions by the tablet world?

Jobs knew that the key was not in the product but in what the product did for the consumer.  A touchscreen tablet with a file system, available keyboard and mouse and a USB-C port would be invaluable.  It would not be a tablet.  Neither would it be a laptop.   It would be both.  

Because the leaders of design and software at apple (including Jobs) have told us specifically that they tried touch Macs and they sucked. different use cases. they've thought of anything you've thought of and tried it already. 

Those leaders you mention, including SJ, explain that the reason was related to ergonomics.  He said that touchscreen notebooks "gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible."  
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-touch-screen-mac-2010-10

But now looks like Apple change their mind, and you see in the add the iPad + Smart Keyboard being used in vertical position.  IMO, the Surface Pro did the right thing by giving the user the option to use touch or the trackpad, and it's better than using an iPad in vertical position, something Apple already say it's wrong. 

Apple haven't "changed their mind". Steve Jobs himself introduced the Keyboard Dock for the original iPad - in 2010!

To claim that the primary difference between iOS and Macintosh is the absence/presence of a mouse pointer is to PROFOUNDLY misunderstand why iOS even exists. 

I guess it's testament to Apple UI designers that people look at the two and think they're pretty much the same, without realising that they actually approach UI for similar tasks from completely opposite directions. 

That iOS has no mouse cursor is not a technical detail; its basic approach to UI means that a mouse pointer makes no sense. Adding one doesn't turn it into a desktop OS — it merely adds a shitty, redundant and confusing implementation of the abstracted UI already done well on the Mac. 

Likewise, adding a touch screen to a Mac would add a shitty, redundant and confusing (not to mention gimmicky) direct-manipulation UI to a Mac — a system entirely built around indirect interface — and NOT turn it into a functional tablet. 

The Apple Pencil does not violate this, because it's still a direct-manipulation tool, just one that's more precise than a fingertip. The interface remains exactly the same, just at a higher resolution.

Let's start by saying that iOS started in the iPhone, where it was clear that keyboard isn't useful.  But when you move it to a 10" or 12" device, then it makes sense to have one.  The iPad Pro 12" have the screen size of a Macbook.  Don't you think it would be nice to have trackpad for working spreadsheets?  Try to select multiples cells in a touchscreen and compare that to a trackpad/mouse.  It doesn't matter if you work in a tablet or notebooks.  The are applications where a trackpad/mouse is a better option.  Like SJ said, "vertical screens are ergonomically terrible".  And that's what Apple is forcing you to do with the iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard. 

The Apple pencil is not a pointing device to navigate the UI . Is for drawing and taking notes, same as the Pen in the SP4.