danvm

tenthousandthings said:

KITA said:

tenthousandthings said:

KidGloves said:

Looks amazing though I would like to see how the likely crippled $5999 version compares to similar PC workstations. I can't help thinking that the Apple Tax is back with a bang. The stuff looks like it's fantastically engineered (probably over the top for 90%). Anyone want to guess how much RAM the $5999 version will ship with?
We're talking a base version that's DOUBLE the price of the current base. That's a big jump in anyone's book.

An HP Z4 with the last-generation (=Skylake) 8 Core Xeon-W (i.e., W-2145) with 1000W chassis, 2x10Gb Ethernet, 32 GB (4x8) of RAM, 256 GB NVMe SSD, and AMD Radeon Pro WX 7100 with 8 GB is $6965.

So that thinking is wrong. 

That's an extremely misleading comparison using a website price for a platform that originally launched in 2017 with superior NVIDIA options, a massive list of ISV certifications and an included 3 years of on-site warranty.

It’s not misleading at all. The point of the comparison is to show the current pricing of the closest parallel configuration offered by HP. When the Cascade Lake configurations for the Z4s with Xeon-W and the current Radeon Pro become available, they’ll be similarly priced. The point is that Apple is not price gouging here — this is what these machines cost. I’m not knocking the HP — the 2019 edition of this machine will be impressive — it just won’t be much cheaper than the Mac Pro.

sflocal said:

lorin schultz said:

Brandon916 said:

ireland said:

Third or fourth revision for a keyboard design Apple imply has basically no issues? They are being too proud here. Scrap the shitty design and go back to keyboards with some travel and with higher reliability.

I agree with you. They freaking need to get off their high horse and admit this keyboard is a complete failure. It's dragging their reputation and name down. The design is crap.

I just moments ago finished sending feedback to Apple letting them know that at least one buyer of a $5000 laptop is refusing to buy another one until I can be sure the keyboard is reliable.

The most expensive computer I ever bought has been the most frustrating machine I've ever owned because of the keyboard. Now Apple says "Don't worry, the new keyboard, despite being the same fundamental design, is better." Really? Define "better." Better enough for me to risk another six grand out of an audio engineer's salary? Not a chance. Once burned...

By stubbornly refusing to let this turkey die, Apple is discouraging me from buying another high-ticket item. That doesn't seem like a good strategy.

Everyone's personal experiences differ.  I myself have had zero problems on my 2017 MBP with that keyboard.  The only thing that I'm not a fan of is the keyboard being louder.  Other than that, zero keyboard problems.

The folks that a complaining - assuming they actually own one - has me wondering what environment they're in that causes the keys to getting stuck.  I've seen people use their laptops literally as dinner plates, with crud of every kind getting on their keyboard and just asking for keyboard failure.

It's obvious this recent design is not friendly in certain uses.  It is Apple's responsibility to make these keyboards as reliable as can be.  Then again, how reliable can they be if it turns out that the problem is with people not taking care of what is a precision electronic device?

macxpress said:

danvm said:

macxpress said:

danvm said:

macxpress said:

danvm said:

macxpress said:

DAalseth said:

danvm said:

DAalseth said:

shev said:

I can't believe how long it takes one of the most valuable companies in the world with near endless resources so long to make a computer when they've been in the computer making business for over 40 years. It's so embarrassing. Pointless iterations of iPhone after iPhone because they sell well. The computers might sell a bit better if they updated them once in a while 

That’s the thing that gets me. This has taken WAY too long. Okay I’ll  give them that Intel has screwed them over with processor delays, but still. They've been stringing people on for a few years. And that’s after sitting on the 2013 model without seemingly made any plans at all to upgrade beyond that model. What was that quote from Jobs, Real Artists,Ship.

Intel delays haven't stop Dell, HP and Lenovo from updating their workstations.  This one is completely on Apple.  

Agreed. Even if Apple had their eye on some theoretical Unobtanium Lake chip that Intel promised but couldn't deliver, Apple could have adjusted, used what WAS available, and gotten the thing out. What is this, two years, three, since they said it was coming? It's close to a year late. It is absurd. 

Also, if Apple was so far along in the design of their product with the anticipation of using a specific Intel chip with a specific load and heat index, you can't just go back on 1-2yrs worth of specific design and change it overnight. Sure, it's easy when you're HP or Dell and just throw a shitty plastic box together with off the shelf parts. To me this is just you being an armchair engineer here. 

The problem is that the armchair engineers made a better product than Apple engineers. 

Sure it all seems easy sitting in front of your computer, but when you have real data from real customers about what they want, not AppleInsider bitch and complainers data its not all that easy in the end. Most of the people here don't know the "pro" market as well as they think they do. They think they know how to run a Fortune 500 company better than the company running it. It's always easier to write a bunch of shit down in a piece of paper and say why can't Apple just build this isn't it? Not so easy to execute it.  Like I said earlier, Apple isn't going to be like Dell and HP and throw a bunch of off the shelf parts together into a shitty looking plastic box...this just isn't going to happen and if it did, other people would be bitching about how Apple can't design shit anymore and how they've lost their touch, etc, etc...

I haven't seen people here saying that designing workstations it's an easy task.  But it's easy to see where Apple failed, specially compared to the Dell, HP and Lenovo.  These companies have excellent devices, far more advanced than what Apple offers, and are updated in a frequent basis.They don't throw bunch of off the shelf parts together, as you said.  Try configuring a HP Z840 from their website, and you'll see there are components (like the NVidia Quadro P6000) that are more expensive than an iMac Pro.  They are using only high end components in these line of devices.  Don't be mad at people that criticize the Mac Pro.  Even Apple admitted doing wrong with the latest model.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/4/15175994/apple-mac-pro-failure-admission

I'm not mad that people are criticizing the Mac Pro. I know its bad, you know it is and obviously so does Apple. They thought the market was going in a certain direction and it didn't pan out. So back to the drawing board. My quiff is that people think they know what a Pro Mac is and what they want when they haven't got a clue. It's just their magical wishlist for a computer most aren't going to buy anyways. 

Agree, some people have no idea of what's involved in a workstation. and maybe don't need one.  But at the same time, there is a group of professional users that needs a capable Mac Pro, and Apple have failed them for years.  And a lot of the people that complain are part of that group.  

Also, people seem to think that Apple can just whip up a computer in a year or less and thats never been the case. It's also never been the case that Apple will just release a shitty plastic box with off the shelf parts inside it like everyone else. Apple is going to most likely make a custom design with their own parts, only borrowing what they need. Making a Pro Mac that's outside the norm of the others. If you didn't notice, each new Mac is going further and further into Apple specific designed parts inside it. 

Apple don't have a "plastic box", but neither HP, Dell or Lenovo workstations are plastic boxes.  Making the Mac Pro a device outside of the normal haven't help Apple at all.  

Then go buy a cheap metal box from HP with off the shelf parts if thats what you want. 

This isn't what Apple is going to offer. 

macxpress said:

danvm said:

macxpress said:

DAalseth said:

danvm said:

DAalseth said:

shev said:

I can't believe how long it takes one of the most valuable companies in the world with near endless resources so long to make a computer when they've been in the computer making business for over 40 years. It's so embarrassing. Pointless iterations of iPhone after iPhone because they sell well. The computers might sell a bit better if they updated them once in a while 

That’s the thing that gets me. This has taken WAY too long. Okay I’ll  give them that Intel has screwed them over with processor delays, but still. They've been stringing people on for a few years. And that’s after sitting on the 2013 model without seemingly made any plans at all to upgrade beyond that model. What was that quote from Jobs, Real Artists,Ship.

Intel delays haven't stop Dell, HP and Lenovo from updating their workstations.  This one is completely on Apple.  

Agreed. Even if Apple had their eye on some theoretical Unobtanium Lake chip that Intel promised but couldn't deliver, Apple could have adjusted, used what WAS available, and gotten the thing out. What is this, two years, three, since they said it was coming? It's close to a year late. It is absurd. 

Also, if Apple was so far along in the design of their product with the anticipation of using a specific Intel chip with a specific load and heat index, you can't just go back on 1-2yrs worth of specific design and change it overnight. Sure, it's easy when you're HP or Dell and just throw a shitty plastic box together with off the shelf parts. To me this is just you being an armchair engineer here. 

The problem is that the armchair engineers made a better product than Apple engineers. 

Sure it all seems easy sitting in front of your computer, but when you have real data from real customers about what they want, not AppleInsider bitch and complainers data its not all that easy in the end. Most of the people here don't know the "pro" market as well as they think they do. They think they know how to run a Fortune 500 company better than the company running it. It's always easier to write a bunch of shit down in a piece of paper and say why can't Apple just build this isn't it? Not so easy to execute it.  Like I said earlier, Apple isn't going to be like Dell and HP and throw a bunch of off the shelf parts together into a shitty looking plastic box...this just isn't going to happen and if it did, other people would be bitching about how Apple can't design shit anymore and how they've lost their touch, etc, etc...

M68000 said:

DAalseth said:

Mike Wuerthele said:

DAalseth said:

danvm said:

DAalseth said:

shev said:

I can't believe how long it takes one of the most valuable companies in the world with near endless resources so long to make a computer when they've been in the computer making business for over 40 years. It's so embarrassing. Pointless iterations of iPhone after iPhone because they sell well. The computers might sell a bit better if they updated them once in a while 

That’s the thing that gets me. This has taken WAY too long. Okay I’ll  give them that Intel has screwed them over with processor delays, but still. They've been stringing people on for a few years. And that’s after sitting on the 2013 model without seemingly made any plans at all to upgrade beyond that model. What was that quote from Jobs, Real Artists,Ship.

Intel delays haven't stop Dell, HP and Lenovo from updating their workstations.  This one is completely on Apple.  

Agreed. Even if Apple had their eye on some theoretical Unobtanium Lake chip that Intel promised but couldn't deliver, Apple could have adjusted, used what WAS available, and gotten the thing out. What is this, two years, three, since they said it was coming? It's close to a year late. It is absurd. 

April 2017 they said that they were working on it. January 2018 they said that they were working on Professional display/s. April 2018 they said that the Mac Pro was a 2019 product.

So in early 2017 they said they were working on the new Pro. I seem to remember them saying that it was to ship in 2018. Here it is in 2019 and not only has it not shipped, we haven't seen it and have no even speculative date to ship. Let's be wildly optimistic and say they will announce it is shipping immediately at WWDC, that's over two years. as @danvm pointed out Dell, HP, and Lenovo have been updating their top systems during this time. Why is it taking them at least two and more likely two and a half to three years to get this out? More to the point, what were they doing for the last six? They had to know the 2013 model wasn't going to be the be all end all for pro machines. But it sure looks like they dropped the ball and let it roll into the gutter. They dusted off their hands and lost the plot. Finally in January 2017 somebody realized they needed to update then Pro but nothing had been done. They threw together a very impressive iMac Pro as a stopgap but the full on Mac Pro is still nowhere to be seen. For a company with the resources and talent of Apple this is a major stubbed toe. 

But hey I'm not in the market for a Pro machine. I just hate to see Apple do something that looks this clumsy. 

So,  let me get this straight, you are actually comparing the time and effort it takes for "garden variety" equipment that comes out from Dell, HP and Lenovo?  - Equipment that has windows 10 on it which to my knowledge is not tuned to the hardware or has not been in the past at least.  Clearly, the Mac Pro does not seem like a computer that Apple intends to update every year like a Dell, HP or Lenovo and thrown together like those brands are.    

Take a look at the engineering and thought that went into the "trash can" Mac Pro that has been on sale for years.  Don't you expect or want that same level of effort going into a new model?  I do...  I know most of us are looking forward to a new model,  they announced 2019 - so that may mean end of year for all we know, but they did say 2019 so let's be patient.  I would rather they get it RIGHT instead of rushing it out to make the marketing folks happy or the Wall Street people happy.