danvm

Microsoft has priced the Surface Studio 2 at a very high tier -- it starts at $3,500, with nothing underneath it in the Surface lineup apart from its three mobile products. That's $200 more than Apple's 27 inch iMac upgraded to a Core i7, 16GB of DDR4 RAM and 1TB of SDD storage at Apple's premium prices.

Apple is known -- and often reviled by PC fans -- for its premium pricing. Yet in this case, an iMac is not just cheaper when similarly configured, but offers a wide range of significantly lower priced options starting at $1,800 for the 5K iMac, or $1,100 for the smaller 4K model where Microsoft does not.

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Microsoft has never sold so many Surface PCs in a year, and its sales haven't really grown since it launched the Surface idea, so it's not really clear what he's trying to say in calling Apple's vastly larger Mac business "mediocre at best." But the words he uses are that "Apple is in a position where it can let the Mac line go old and stale because Apple isn't a computer company anymore. It's now a company that sells the iPhone."

In reality, the fact is that Apple's Mac operations have generated $25.2 billion in revenues over the last four quarters. Microsoft's total Surface revenues over the same period were $4.7 billion. Of course, most of that was from sales of its hybrid tablets, more comparable to Apple's iPad business which itself generated another $19.5 billion.

macxpress said:

larrya said:

Should this really take 2 years??

You realize that most Apple products that are totally brand new take many years to design, engineer, and fine tune before its announcement? This isn't just slapping parts together like a DIY PC and call it good. Apple is not Dell, HP, etc. If all you want is a bunch of parts slapped together then by all means, go get that or create your own.

If you need a professional Mac in the meantime, the iMac Pro is actually a great Pro Mac to get. It will still have significant value, even next year should you want to sell it for a new Mac Pro.

GeorgeBMac said:

If its online it can be hacked & stolen -- and identity theft is a growth industry.

Why would I trust Microsoft with my ID?
Actually, that's one of the big reasons why I stick to Apple products -- security and privacy.  They're not invulnerable, but they're better than the rest.   Far better.

macxpress said:

lkrupp said:

rogifan_new said:

Neil Cybart from Above Avalon put up a post saying the Mac is Apple's achilles' heel. Basically arguing that the Mac is a barrier which prevents Apple for giving enough attention to what comes next. John Gruber disagrees. Ben Thompson says Apple just needs to ship a damm tower and not be precious about it. I don't agree with Cybart about the Mac being a "major vulnerability" for Apple. But I also don't agree that Apple isn't shipping a new Mac Pro this year because they're being too precious about it's hardware design. I think the fact Apple didn't exist the Pro market means they're working on something bigger here. Otherwise they could've just brought back the cheese grater and been done with it. Apple doesn't put resources on something for nothing.

Hopefully Apple will consult with real pros (not the ones here) to get their input. Alex Lindsey (Lucasfilm, Pixel Corps) pretty much spelled out his desires on last week’s MacBreak Weekly show. He wants a 2U configuration with the ability to swap out HDDs/SSDs and GPUs. Yes, he wants a rack mountable Mac Pro, not a cheese grater.

Thats an interesting concept...I'm to sure that will meet most users needs, but perhaps they could offer this as a BTO. Not everyone has a rack sitting next to them. I could see that option working as a Mac server again should one need it. I'd love to see a rack mountable Mac just for that use alone. 

I can maybe see where Alex is going with that. You could create a small rendering farm with a couple (few?) rack mounted Mac Pro's. Whether or not this meets the needs of the average true pro I'm not sure. I'm not a pro so I can't honestly say. 

rogifan_new said:

Neil Cybart from Above Avalon put up a post saying the Mac is Apple's achilles' heel. Basically arguing that the Mac is a barrier which prevents Apple for giving enough attention to what comes next. John Gruber disagrees. Ben Thompson says Apple just needs to ship a damm tower and not be precious about it. I don't agree with Cybart about the Mac being a "major vulnerability" for Apple. But I also don't agree that Apple isn't shipping a new Mac Pro this year because they're being too precious about it's hardware design. I think the fact Apple didn't exist the Pro market means they're working on something bigger here. Otherwise they could've just brought back the cheese grater and been done with it. Apple doesn't put resources on something for nothing.

I'd rather Apple make it right and not just slap a bunch of parts together with an Apple logo on the side of it. If you want that, then go get an HP or a Dell. There's a reason why Apple takes as long as it does to engineer a Mac, or any product for that matter.  People like Neil will be the first to bitch too if someone Apple released has a major issue simply because Apple rushed a product out the door just to say we upgraded the Mac Pro. You're better off to do it right the first time, not the second or third. 

jcs2305 said:

indiekiduk said:

That's quite a bold statement given it's going to take something major for the 2015 MBP and even more for the 2012 Air users to upgrade given how bad the problems with the keyboards are, and waste of money touch bar, and dongle hell, and and and...

You do realize they sell the MBP without the touchbar right? 

williamlondon said:

danvm said:

"My post didn't had the purpose to defend to PC..."

Are you kidding?! Having installed yourself as the resident Microsoft/PC apologist, *that's all you ever do*. It's really fucking annoying, btw, and you've been told this numerous times by numerous people, we're not stupid and neither are you, so you can stop the innocent act.

polymnia said:

I love the 180° turn in Mac design. Maybe I'm living in the reality distortion field, but the last few Mac hardware updates seem much more substantial. I love seeing them move their T chip technology through the Mac line. One could argue that the most likely Mac to leave off the T chip is the Mini—its (traditionally) such minimalist Mac. Putting a T chip in the Mini sends a signal that this is a core component fo the Mac platform moving forward.

When Intel leaves Apple with no significantly new tech for years, Apple has gotten resourceful and developed some great supporting technology. Best part about it is no other vendor can just order T chips from Intel to make equivalent secure machines. Apple is designing they own differentiating tech and they don't have to share it. Apple has been crafting a PR story about privacy and security for years. Now they have that strategy baked into silicon that will soon be shipping in every Mac.

GeorgeBMac said:

brian green said:

This comparison reminds me of the days when Phil would do a speed test on stage with the latest and greatest PC versus the Mac, and the Mac would always win.  It was a smack down.  

I think the best thing we can do as a computer community is show Apple that they persistently come up short, and that engineers ought to actually focus on the best specs possible, rather than settling for average or bare minimum for a premium price point.  

I'd love to see Phil out there again with a MacBook Pro trouncing the competition like they did in the old days.  Sadly, when all of the components are off the shelf compatible to every other manufacturer, Apple would have to make the conscious decision to spec out a laptop with that specifically in mind, and it's my opinion that Apple engineers have no plans to be the best in regard to performance.  

I am aware that a critical component to functionality is the OS itself and Windows 10 has made significant improvements in stability from what I've read.  MacOS is stable, and functional, while I believe we're well past the days of seeing significant improvements and speed increases from one version of the OS to another.  Most of us run the latest version and it "just works", much to our daily contentment.  I feel the significant disparity is revealed in speed of workflow throughput.  We've seen 4k become the standard for video, and HEVC has proved a significant space saver while remaining visibly lossless to the average user, yet creating more work to be done by the CPU and GPU.  I have not seen a noticeable speed improvement with the change of filesystem to APFS either.   When we're seeing other laptops outperforming the MacBook Pro, it's not only a loss of pride in the brand we choose to spend our hard earned money on, it's also taking more time because the laptops we're offered by Apple Engineers are less capable than those by other manufacturers.  

It has been my opinion, for several generations of Mac products, that Apple Engineers have cared significantly less about performance, and more about esthetics.  While Apple laptops look nice, they fall short in providing the best performance for their Prosumer users, which is truly unfortunate for those of us who refuse to leave the Mac ecosystem.  When the components of laptops are largely from the same vendors and assembled by other manufacturers, it's harder to differentiate them.  While I hope Apple persists in incorporating more of their own chips into their products, I am finding it difficult to imagine the day when Phil will be back out on that stage showing us the Mac trouncing the PC once again.  At least the Mac will look nice though.

Not that I disagree with anything you said, but comparing MacOS to Windows only on the basis of stability, is only part of the equation:   MacOS is generally more user friendly and world's more secure.  For me, security is a major selling point.   (On the other hand, Windows has more "apps" available).

And too:  Don't forget the entire Apple Ecosystem that simply doesn't exist in the world of Windows.   I love how my Apple Watch unlocks my MacBook and how my messages flow between my Watch, my phone and my MacBook - etc, etc, etc,....

Don't forget that MS have their ecosystem too.  Two examples that come to my mind are gaming and business / enterprise.  The integration of the Xbox / Xbox Live and Windows 10 ecosystems is non existent in Apple devices.  And the business / enterprise ecosystem MS have is miles ahead of what Apple offers.  From what I'm seeing, both environments have excellent ecosystems, with a strength in some areas and weakness in other. 

williamlondon said:

Yamcha67 said:

That sounds like an awful idea, the current MacBook keyboards aren't great and have their set of issues. Introducing glass keyboards doesn't seem like a solution to the problem at all, in fact, it may just make matters worse. Don't fix it if ain't broke, they should really stick to their old style keyboards, I'm not sure how they'll manage it thanks to that obsession with thinness but maybe it can be done. Microsoft has managed to create a superthin keyboard with great travel and tactile feedback on their Surface Pro Type Covers, I'm sure there's a way to achieve something similar on the Apple side.

It's funny that Microsoft is actually taking Apple's place in many respects. Just look at the current Surface sales, they've been incredible for Microsoft. Microsoft has already exceeded expectations and now they are predicting 20% growth on top of that. I think they're really doing well considering that Microsoft has gotten into the hardware business very late compared to Apple. I also feel they are innovating in many more areas and in many cases outshining even Apple's Macs. The keyboards, trackpads, design are all on point and even the software has reached a stage where it's a lot like Mac OS. 

I wish Apple would change direction. Some Mac users including myself have jumped ship, I sold my Mac for the simple reason that I just got sick and tired of paying for premiums and getting less, not only that I just feel like Microsoft now is providing a better experience for my use case. The keyboard issues, flex-gate, bent iPads, iPhone 6 performance throttling etc.. all tell us that the quality assurance has taken a dive and Apple doesn't seem to care. The recent flex-gate issue which is leading to display failure early thanks to a fragile cable is going to cost customers $600+ for repair because the cable isn't durable enough to last very long. The bent iPads will not be covered, but people are eligible for a refund within the normal period for any device. The issues with keyboards have been semi-resolved but I guess we'll have to see how the new keyboards work out. Initially, customers were forced to pay around $700 for out of warranty keyboard repairs until Apple provided free replacements later on. It's really not looking good for Apple. I'm not saying it's a failing company, it makes way too much money for these issues to make a dent in the near future but it does mean customers will suffer in the end.

We already have a resident MS shill, btw, unless that's you, DanVM?

No, I'm still have my sign-in name active...

williamlondon said:

danvm said:

williamlondon said:

Yamcha67 said:

That sounds like an awful idea, the current MacBook keyboards aren't great and have their set of issues. Introducing glass keyboards doesn't seem like a solution to the problem at all, in fact, it may just make matters worse. Don't fix it if ain't broke, they should really stick to their old style keyboards, I'm not sure how they'll manage it thanks to that obsession with thinness but maybe it can be done. Microsoft has managed to create a superthin keyboard with great travel and tactile feedback on their Surface Pro Type Covers, I'm sure there's a way to achieve something similar on the Apple side.

It's funny that Microsoft is actually taking Apple's place in many respects. Just look at the current Surface sales, they've been incredible for Microsoft. Microsoft has already exceeded expectations and now they are predicting 20% growth on top of that. I think they're really doing well considering that Microsoft has gotten into the hardware business very late compared to Apple. I also feel they are innovating in many more areas and in many cases outshining even Apple's Macs. The keyboards, trackpads, design are all on point and even the software has reached a stage where it's a lot like Mac OS. 

I wish Apple would change direction. Some Mac users including myself have jumped ship, I sold my Mac for the simple reason that I just got sick and tired of paying for premiums and getting less, not only that I just feel like Microsoft now is providing a better experience for my use case. The keyboard issues, flex-gate, bent iPads, iPhone 6 performance throttling etc.. all tell us that the quality assurance has taken a dive and Apple doesn't seem to care. The recent flex-gate issue which is leading to display failure early thanks to a fragile cable is going to cost customers $600+ for repair because the cable isn't durable enough to last very long. The bent iPads will not be covered, but people are eligible for a refund within the normal period for any device. The issues with keyboards have been semi-resolved but I guess we'll have to see how the new keyboards work out. Initially, customers were forced to pay around $700 for out of warranty keyboard repairs until Apple provided free replacements later on. It's really not looking good for Apple. I'm not saying it's a failing company, it makes way too much money for these issues to make a dent in the near future but it does mean customers will suffer in the end.

We already have a resident MS shill, btw, unless that's you, DanVM?

I find interesting that you consider me a MS shill, 

Are you kidding me? You don't know yourself do you, or remember any of the exchanges we've had? [rolls eyes]