danvm

melgross said:

danvm said:

melgross said:

danvm said:

rob53 said:

danvm said:

rob53 said:

In my history supporting Macs, we never really had that many IT support people anyway. What this could do, however, is get rid of all those Microsoft IT people who never could do anything more than re-image PCs. I am excited that businesses are finally understanding what we knew decades ago, that everything Apple makes is better and takes less IT support to operate properly.

Do you really think that Apple makes it better?  They don't even offer a real management tool for iOS / macOS.  You have to use Jamf or even MS solutions to deploy Apple devices.  And I don't think that you consider iWorks better than MS Office or Filemaker better than MS, Oracle or IBM databases.  The ecosystem MS have in the enterprise is miles ahead of what Apple offer. 

The business I was in, absolutely yes! As for having to deal with the revolting Microsoft product line, I'm glad I don't have to anymore. Same with the Adobe product line. People keep saying those are professional business applications but all they ever have been are way for Microsoft and Adobe to lock you into their ecosystem and provide you with out of date software, especially on the Mac side.

I find interesting how you criticize MS and Adobe for, in your opinion, lock users in their ecosystems.  Isn't that what Apple does?  And even with the out-of-date software you mention (something I don't agree, since I see very frequents updates for Office in my Mac), it still better than what Apple offers, specially for business / enterprises. 

You do realize that Word and Photoshop/Illustrator originated on the Mac platform don't you? Then the bean counters came in and forced cr*p PCs on everyone while Microsoft committed all sorts of illegal activities to keep their product in the enterprise and government. I have no problem accessing Oracle and IBM databases from a property written client on macOS, while anything from Microsoft is purposely written to work poorly on Macs (and not much better on Windows systems).

I may add that Excel started in the Mac, but Windows is the one how made Office what it is today in business and enterprises.  Regarding Oracle and IBM databases, I mention them as examples of enterprise software that it's ahead of Apple.  There are cases where Apple solutions it's the best option, while for other is not.  The same can be said of all devices, services and applications.  But as today, it looks like the MS ecosystem is the best option for most business and enterprises. 

The way Microsoft did that though resulted in a federal lawsuit which Microsoft lost. When Windows came out, they withheld required APIs from their main competitors, such as Lotus, Db, WordPerfect and others. As a result they lost critical time to get their software working on Windows. By the ti em the lawsuit ended, in favor of those companies, it was too late, Office had taken over.

the truth is that we will never know what would have happened if Microsoft didn’t illegally prevent their competitors from accessing the platform right away, a heir own application developers were able to. The ruling included watching Microsoft for several years, and the requirement that they keep a “Chinese wall” between systems development and applications development.

of course, Microsoft did it again with Netscape and computer OEMs in the mid late ‘90’s, just a very few years later. They also stole Apple’s QuickTime software in order to get video working properly in Windows. It would be interesting to wonder what w;u,d have happened if, at that time, Apple wasn’t in financial trouble, and required Microsoft to remove that software instead of maki g the deal they did. What, and where, would Windows be today if it couldn’t run video without stopping, hesitating and jumping?

Yes, MS legal issues were awful, and hurt many good companies.  It's true that we'll never know what would happen if MS would behave at the time.  But MS today is very different from the past.  As today, MS Office still the best desktop for most business and enterprises.  Even Apple haven't done something better than Office for Mac. 

businesses are moving away from Windows slowly, but surely.

I'm not sure business are moving away from Windows.  What I'm seeing is business and enterprises adopting Mac's, but not necessarily to completely replace Windows.  The MS enterprise ecosystem runs better on Windows, and that's what most of them have.  At the same time, MS management tools with Jamf integration and MS Office for Mac are tools that open the door for more Mac deployments.  Let's see what happens in the next few years.  But when you see that a single customer deploy Windows 10 in 4M devices, you understand how strong Windows is in the enterprise.  

Office is the best, because it’s the only major suite left after the massacre Microsoft did in eliminating all of the major competition, and tying Office so tightly to Windows. It’s not a tribute to Office, but what results when there’s no serious competition. WordPerfect, for example was a far better program. But Microsoft did that to a lot of competitors over the years. Even Adobe was hurt by them when PowerPoint, which Microsoft couldn’t sell in competition to the far better Persuasion that Adobe was selling. So Microsoft put it into Office, and Persuasion died, because you had to buy it instead of getting it for free, from the monopoly that is Microsoft.

oh, I’m not saying that Windows will completely go away from anywhere. But the monopoly in business is being shredded. A large number of companies and government agencies have replaced Windows notebooks with iPads, and have been doing so for years. We’re seeing for iOS the sort of thing we saw for PC DOS and Windows, with $billions of specialty software being written for that OS. It becomes cumulative.

Do you have an article with stats on how iPad are replacing Windows notebooks ,or how MS "monopoly" is being shredded?  

right now, we’re in the middle of the switchover to Win 10 from 7, and earlier. Once that’s mostly complete, we’ll see the continued slide of Windows sales. Microsoft knows that, and they’re preparing for it. Where Windows was first, now applications are first. It’s far more profitable, in the long term, to sell subscriptions for applications than to have Windows. We can see that in their just announced results for the quarter.

IMO, services are first for MS, and that's the reason the have the Microsoft 365 suite with Windows, Office and Management tools, among other services.  It looks like Windows still a very important part of MS agenda. 

melgross said:

danvm said:

maestro64 said:

danvm said:

maestro64 said:

I can hear the screams of the IT professions as more unnecessary jobs are eliminate. IBM has show Mac need less IT resources once deployed and now they are eliminating the need to have someone spend time setting up a new systems. So much for automation eliminating factories worker it is now eliminated the educated IT worker. I wonder what all the people in India will be doing in the future no need to tech support call centers.

And MS will show you how their solutions have a lower TCO.  Every companies does it, IBM, MS, Apple, Oracle, SAP, you name it.  Were it really counts it's in the customer side, where needs and environments are different.  You cannot expect every customer have the same experience as IBM had in their own deployment.  Would be nice to see IBM talking about a customer deployment instead of their own case study. 

Actual, MS can never show they have lower TCO, the IT support for their products are huge.

Yes, they can...

https://wincom.blob.core.windows.net/documents/Windows 10 TEI Study.pdf

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2016/07/12/forrester-study-finds-windows-10-can-reduce-security-it-and-productivity-costs/

When Apple is deployed you do not need anywhere the level of tech support, if you do it is a fraction of what you need with MS and Wintel environment. Plus MS/Wintel costs are the benchmarks everyone is comparing to. MS got their foot in the door back in the 80's because the benchmark was the IBM mainframes and MS/Wintel could show distributed computing was more cost effective than having to maintain a Mainframe for thousands of users. But over the year the IT support for MS/Wintel has grown to the point it more than having a mainframe.

Other company have come out and said when they deployed macs they do not replace Macs at the same rate as Wintels computers. The company I work for, replaces our PD's every two use to avoid dealing with issue as the PC ages. I worked for 3 different companies who had the same PC policy of lease verse buy and trade in every two years.

A few years ago Intel said that the replacement cycle is close to 5-6 years. 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3078010/hardware/the-pc-upgrade-cycle-slows-to-every-five-to-six-years-intels-ceo-says.html

Even Schiller mention the high quantity of users with PC with +5 years.

https://www.itprotoday.com/management-mobility/apple-decides-600-million-pc-users-5-year-old-pcs-sad-fact

My customer replacement cycle is 5-7 years.  If your workplace need to replace every two years, they need some help.

It a also been reported their IT call desk support requirements dropped way off with macs. Again MS can not say this, if anything every OS release they had has caused more support issues.

In my experience managing Windows PC's and Mac, both are very stable with few issues.  But something I make sure is acquiring high quality devices.  Considering that in your workplace replace every two years, maybe the should check the quality of the devices they acquire.   For me, Lenovo Thinkpads and business desktops from HP and Lenovo are the best. 

Most large corporations have a three replacement cycle.

melgross said:

danvm said:

rob53 said:

danvm said:

rob53 said:

In my history supporting Macs, we never really had that many IT support people anyway. What this could do, however, is get rid of all those Microsoft IT people who never could do anything more than re-image PCs. I am excited that businesses are finally understanding what we knew decades ago, that everything Apple makes is better and takes less IT support to operate properly.

Do you really think that Apple makes it better?  They don't even offer a real management tool for iOS / macOS.  You have to use Jamf or even MS solutions to deploy Apple devices.  And I don't think that you consider iWorks better than MS Office or Filemaker better than MS, Oracle or IBM databases.  The ecosystem MS have in the enterprise is miles ahead of what Apple offer. 

The business I was in, absolutely yes! As for having to deal with the revolting Microsoft product line, I'm glad I don't have to anymore. Same with the Adobe product line. People keep saying those are professional business applications but all they ever have been are way for Microsoft and Adobe to lock you into their ecosystem and provide you with out of date software, especially on the Mac side.

I find interesting how you criticize MS and Adobe for, in your opinion, lock users in their ecosystems.  Isn't that what Apple does?  And even with the out-of-date software you mention (something I don't agree, since I see very frequents updates for Office in my Mac), it still better than what Apple offers, specially for business / enterprises. 

You do realize that Word and Photoshop/Illustrator originated on the Mac platform don't you? Then the bean counters came in and forced cr*p PCs on everyone while Microsoft committed all sorts of illegal activities to keep their product in the enterprise and government. I have no problem accessing Oracle and IBM databases from a property written client on macOS, while anything from Microsoft is purposely written to work poorly on Macs (and not much better on Windows systems).

I may add that Excel started in the Mac, but Windows is the one how made Office what it is today in business and enterprises.  Regarding Oracle and IBM databases, I mention them as examples of enterprise software that it's ahead of Apple.  There are cases where Apple solutions it's the best option, while for other is not.  The same can be said of all devices, services and applications.  But as today, it looks like the MS ecosystem is the best option for most business and enterprises. 

The way Microsoft did that though resulted in a federal lawsuit which Microsoft lost. When Windows came out, they withheld required APIs from their main competitors, such as Lotus, Db, WordPerfect and others. As a result they lost critical time to get their software working on Windows. By the ti em the lawsuit ended, in favor of those companies, it was too late, Office had taken over.

the truth is that we will never know what would have happened if Microsoft didn’t illegally prevent their competitors from accessing the platform right away, a heir own application developers were able to. The ruling included watching Microsoft for several years, and the requirement that they keep a “Chinese wall” between systems development and applications development.

of course, Microsoft did it again with Netscape and computer OEMs in the mid late ‘90’s, just a very few years later. They also stole Apple’s QuickTime software in order to get video working properly in Windows. It would be interesting to wonder what w;u,d have happened if, at that time, Apple wasn’t in financial trouble, and required Microsoft to remove that software instead of maki g the deal they did. What, and where, would Windows be today if it couldn’t run video without stopping, hesitating and jumping?

businesses are moving away from Windows slowly, but surely.

I'm not sure business are moving away from Windows.  What I'm seeing is business and enterprises adopting Mac's, but not necessarily to completely replace Windows.  The MS enterprise ecosystem runs better on Windows, and that's what most of them have.  At the same time, MS management tools with Jamf integration and MS Office for Mac are tools that open the door for more Mac deployments.  Let's see what happens in the next few years.  But when you see that a single customer deploy Windows 10 in 4M devices, you understand how strong Windows is in the enterprise.  

maestro64 said:

danvm said:

maestro64 said:

I can hear the screams of the IT professions as more unnecessary jobs are eliminate. IBM has show Mac need less IT resources once deployed and now they are eliminating the need to have someone spend time setting up a new systems. So much for automation eliminating factories worker it is now eliminated the educated IT worker. I wonder what all the people in India will be doing in the future no need to tech support call centers.

And MS will show you how their solutions have a lower TCO.  Every companies does it, IBM, MS, Apple, Oracle, SAP, you name it.  Were it really counts it's in the customer side, where needs and environments are different.  You cannot expect every customer have the same experience as IBM had in their own deployment.  Would be nice to see IBM talking about a customer deployment instead of their own case study. 

Actual, MS can never show they have lower TCO, the IT support for their products are huge.

When Apple is deployed you do not need anywhere the level of tech support, if you do it is a fraction of what you need with MS and Wintel environment. Plus MS/Wintel costs are the benchmarks everyone is comparing to. MS got their foot in the door back in the 80's because the benchmark was the IBM mainframes and MS/Wintel could show distributed computing was more cost effective than having to maintain a Mainframe for thousands of users. But over the year the IT support for MS/Wintel has grown to the point it more than having a mainframe.

Other company have come out and said when they deployed macs they do not replace Macs at the same rate as Wintels computers. The company I work for, replaces our PD's every two use to avoid dealing with issue as the PC ages. I worked for 3 different companies who had the same PC policy of lease verse buy and trade in every two years.

It a also been reported their IT call desk support requirements dropped way off with macs. Again MS can not say this, if anything every OS release they had has caused more support issues.

rob53 said:

danvm said:

rob53 said:

In my history supporting Macs, we never really had that many IT support people anyway. What this could do, however, is get rid of all those Microsoft IT people who never could do anything more than re-image PCs. I am excited that businesses are finally understanding what we knew decades ago, that everything Apple makes is better and takes less IT support to operate properly.

Do you really think that Apple makes it better?  They don't even offer a real management tool for iOS / macOS.  You have to use Jamf or even MS solutions to deploy Apple devices.  And I don't think that you consider iWorks better than MS Office or Filemaker better than MS, Oracle or IBM databases.  The ecosystem MS have in the enterprise is miles ahead of what Apple offer. 

The business I was in, absolutely yes! As for having to deal with the revolting Microsoft product line, I'm glad I don't have to anymore. Same with the Adobe product line. People keep saying those are professional business applications but all they ever have been are way for Microsoft and Adobe to lock you into their ecosystem and provide you with out of date software, especially on the Mac side.

You do realize that Word and Photoshop/Illustrator originated on the Mac platform don't you? Then the bean counters came in and forced cr*p PCs on everyone while Microsoft committed all sorts of illegal activities to keep their product in the enterprise and government. I have no problem accessing Oracle and IBM databases from a property written client on macOS, while anything from Microsoft is purposely written to work poorly on Macs (and not much better on Windows systems).

I may add that Excel started in the Mac, but Windows is the one how made Office what it is today in business and enterprises.  Regarding Oracle and IBM databases, I mention them as examples of enterprise software that it's ahead of Apple.  There are cases where Apple solutions it's the best option, while for other is not.  The same can be said of all devices, services and applications.  But as today, it looks like the MS ecosystem is the best option for most business and enterprises.