danvm
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Where is Apple's innovative iPad, MacBook Pro hardware to rival Microsoft's Surface?
I think it's obvious that you need deep pockets to enter a saturated PC market. But like I posted before, they don't have the advantage Apple has being the only option for macOS / iOS devices. They have to compete with other companies that have been in the market for +30 years with similar devices and sometimes better than what MS offers. And after 6 years, they are already in +$1B per quarter. I agree with you that being in the market in not a measure of success, but you have to consider other things, like the one I mentioned before.radarthekat said:
I’m not one who said Surface would be defunct, but I’ll just chime in to say that a large highly profitable company can afford to keep a project going that would have failed if it had to stand on its own. So the fact Surface is still in existence is no measure of success.danvm said:corrections said:
TouchBar is a feature that makes MacBook Pros look fancy. It has not slowed Apple's pace of sales. So regardless of your opinion, trying to call Apple's incredible success in premium laptops a failure while making excuses for microsoft's incredibly lack of success over the last ~six years of desperately trying just illuminates that you have a fundamentalist bias you are arguing in the face of facts. You want to believe something that isn't true, and will make up no end of stories explaining that the very wrong data you are pushing is in fact reasonable and probably also true alternative facts. But that's not how things actually work.k2kw said:
I was really impressed by how last year DED critisized Microsoft for having a bad Quarter because customers were waiting for a Surface Refresh and this year blasts them when it rebounds.rogifan_new said:What’s the purpose of this editorial? Did someone recently write a pro-Microsoft article that bashed Apple? How about writing an Apple editorial instead. Like maybe one saying their laptop line is a bit of a mess right now and the MBA, MB and non-TB MBP should be combined into one device. Or with regards to desktops either update the Mac mini or discontinue it already.
Other than thAt difference seems like this is a retread of editorials from before.
I will say it again. TouchBar is a failed innovation. I’ll believe otherwise when they come out with a Desktop keyboard with Touchbar. Yes people want the TouchId and Apple Pay or they want the most power the could get so they have to get the TouchBar model. And the keyboard sucks. That’s why I bought a 2015 MBP last year. I just keep hoping that Next year Apple’s next MBP redesign has a keyboard with much more travel. (It should be a great machine if Intel finally delivers their 10 nm CPUs with LPDDR4)I wouldn't call it lack of success. Mac's are the only option if you want/need macOS (personally I don't consider Hackintosh an option). That put Apple in a position to price their devices at a higher cost. There are no competition in the macOS market. That's different from Windows PC's, where you have options for major vendors like Dell, HP and Lenovo, and some of their devices are as good or better than what MS offers. Many people in these forums said that the Surface line would be out of business after a few years, and it didn't happen. And now they added more devices to their line. I suppose they are doing something right.
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Where is Apple's innovative iPad, MacBook Pro hardware to rival Microsoft's Surface?
Do you think the same when using an iPad with the Smart Keyboard with a touch screen in a vertical position?AppleZulu said:
This is the essence of it. MS Windows and Surface are trying too hard to put everything into a single device and to be all things to all people. The result is too often a single inelegant device that's not as good as either of the separate items. It seems like it ought to be brilliant, but it ends up just being "kludgy."JamesBrickley said:..
Ok, so reality check. I used both the Surface Book and a MacBook Pro and iPad w/Pencil. I might as well just buy a MacBook Pro and an iPad w/Pencil and be done with it. Switch between the two devices as needed. The whole experience is much nicer. Holistically speaking, macOS / iOS is so much smoother and more refined and the hardware works so well with it that using Microsoft solutions just feel kludgy and slapped together. ...
Think of all the attempts to make a single vehicle that works as both a car and an airplane. It's a nifty concept, but the execution is, so far, always disappointing. As a car it's impractical, uncomfortable, and won't fit in your garage, and as an airplane, it's slow, hard to maneuver, has a small passenger compartment, and has a range not much better than a car. So it seems like it would be nice to go downstairs, pack the family into the flying car, zip across the country and upon arrival, skip the rental, but still be able to tool around town. But no, the flying cars so far are just expensive proofs that you could do it, sort of, but probably wouldn't want to.
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Where is Apple's innovative iPad, MacBook Pro hardware to rival Microsoft's Surface?
JamesBrickley said:At first glance, the new Surface Books are somewhat kinda nice. You can detach the screen and go tablet mode without the keyboard or you can flip it around a fold it back to go tablet bulk mode but have a larger battery (tablet & keyboard has battery). It sounds nice but in reality it's not used that much. But because the battery is in the tablet and keyboard it does have crazy battery life. However, the trackpad sucks, the stylus is nowhere near as precise nor responsive as the Apple Pencil on iPad. The whole Win10 UX is bizarre and weird. Not to mention it's very expensive.I have a SP4, and have use a Surface Book, and the trackpad are the best in Windows devices, and very close to Macbook Pros. Definitely it do not sucks, as you said. For some reason, you didn't compare keyboards quality, which is as important as the trackpad, but I suppose you won't go there.I haven't tried the latest Pen or Pencil in the latest devices, but from what I have read both are very good. In my experience, the Surface Pen with the eraser makes a big difference for note taking (as I do frequently) compared to the Pencil. A part from that, it looks like the Pencil have the advantage for drawing.On Windows 10UX, I think it's a matter of preference, and pricing, is not far off of other high end models.Ok, so reality check. I used both the Surface Book and a MacBook Pro and iPad w/Pencil. I might as well just buy a MacBook Pro and an iPad w/Pencil and be done with it. Switch between the two devices as needed. The whole experience is much nicer. Holistically speaking, macOS / iOS is so much smoother and more refined and the hardware works so well with it that using Microsoft solutions just feel kludgy and slapped together. Apple is not perfect but they are so far ahead it is going to take a long time for Microsoft to catch up.There are cases like yours, where two devices is a better experience, while for other is a compromise. And there are cases where a Surface does better than an Apple device. For example, like when you add a Smart Keyboard to an iPad. For years Apple have been critic of touchscreen notebooks, but that's the experience you have with an iPad + Smart Keyboard. Compare that to a Surface Pro, where you can use it as a tablet, or as a laptop with trackpad, the way a it's suppose to be, or at least that's what Apple said. So it looks like MS is not playing catch up as you said.You can see Microsoft in a panic as they do things like port SQL Server to Linux, build in the Linux Subsystem in Win10, add native SSHd / SSH, opened Azure to host Linux, tweaked Server to run headless, open sourced PowerShell and other things. Bought Xamarin so they can develop iOS / Android apps on Windows. Bought GitHub, etc. They know they are completely screwed if they don't embrace Cloud. They are already losing developers to Macs because they play so much better with Unix / Linux. The only thing that makes sense is all these steps that Microsoft are taking are because Cloud is a major threat to their survival and as such they must adapt and interact if they are to survive. If Ballmer was still in charge, they would be hurting far more than they are now. Office 365 Cloud is a big profit for Microsoft. But they apparently need to play ball with the competitions Cloud solutions.Definitely MS has change recently, and it has been good for business, and the list you mentioned are good examples. For some reason, you said it's panic. Did you think the same from Apple when they released Apple Music for Android, or when the release iTunes in the Windows App Store? You call it panic, I call it growing your business.
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Where is Apple's innovative iPad, MacBook Pro hardware to rival Microsoft's Surface?
corrections said:
TouchBar is a feature that makes MacBook Pros look fancy. It has not slowed Apple's pace of sales. So regardless of your opinion, trying to call Apple's incredible success in premium laptops a failure while making excuses for microsoft's incredibly lack of success over the last ~six years of desperately trying just illuminates that you have a fundamentalist bias you are arguing in the face of facts. You want to believe something that isn't true, and will make up no end of stories explaining that the very wrong data you are pushing is in fact reasonable and probably also true alternative facts. But that's not how things actually work.k2kw said:
I was really impressed by how last year DED critisized Microsoft for having a bad Quarter because customers were waiting for a Surface Refresh and this year blasts them when it rebounds.rogifan_new said:What’s the purpose of this editorial? Did someone recently write a pro-Microsoft article that bashed Apple? How about writing an Apple editorial instead. Like maybe one saying their laptop line is a bit of a mess right now and the MBA, MB and non-TB MBP should be combined into one device. Or with regards to desktops either update the Mac mini or discontinue it already.
Other than thAt difference seems like this is a retread of editorials from before.
I will say it again. TouchBar is a failed innovation. I’ll believe otherwise when they come out with a Desktop keyboard with Touchbar. Yes people want the TouchId and Apple Pay or they want the most power the could get so they have to get the TouchBar model. And the keyboard sucks. That’s why I bought a 2015 MBP last year. I just keep hoping that Next year Apple’s next MBP redesign has a keyboard with much more travel. (It should be a great machine if Intel finally delivers their 10 nm CPUs with LPDDR4)I wouldn't call it lack of success. Mac's are the only option if you want/need macOS (personally I don't consider Hackintosh an option). That put Apple in a position to price their devices at a higher cost. There are no competition in the macOS market. That's different from Windows PC's, where you have options for major vendors like Dell, HP and Lenovo, and some of their devices are as good or better than what MS offers. Many people in these forums said that the Surface line would be out of business after a few years, and it didn't happen. And now they added more devices to their line. I suppose they are doing something right. -
Where is Apple's innovative iPad, MacBook Pro hardware to rival Microsoft's Surface?
I suppose the same applies to an iPad when I connect a Smart Keyboard, and try to use it as a desktop device. It's not intuitive and it's awful. At least that's what Apple said many times.bestkeptsecret said:seanismorris said:Touch screens on laptops remains a bad idea.
Microsoft’s OS gymnasts to make the transformer idea work resulted in a poor user experience for everyone.
I agree with you. I have a Surface Pro 4 issued as my work computer and only use it docked to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse.I tried using the touch screen, but it really is non-intuitive. You cannot shoehorn a pointer-based OS to a touch screen and expect it to be great. Like Apple, they need to develop a touch-based UI from the ground up.
