danvm

tht said:

Marvin said:

That report spells out the main issue. The revenue and unit volume there shows the average workstation price to be $1888, which is a lot lower than where Apple's pro desktops start. That average means a significant amount of workstation class devices are being sold below $1888, some of which get used as dedicated servers. HP actually notes 1 million mini workstations (< 3 litres volume, Mac mini/Cube size) are sold per year when they make the claim that their Z2 Mini is the first mini workstation designed for CAD users. Solidworks is Windows-only and has over 2 million users so Apple misses some of this market by not having the software compatibility.

If we assume half of workstations are premium workstations (>$2k) and Apple gets 1/3 of the market like HP/Dell, they are aiming for a best-case of ~200k units per quarter. Apple used to sell this many in 2004 when the PowerMac started at $1800 and the PowerMac line was 20% of Mac sales. Once the price is near doubled, the unit volume drops more than half. These prices are largely due to Intel. AMD's latest chips currently offer much better value, maybe they will help drive Intel prices down if they gain some traction in servers.

An ASP of 1800? And a 10% per year are Z2 minis?

This really begs the question of what workstation is and what components are in them. If half the units are less than $1800, that implies these machines have Core chips, Intel processor graphics and lower end GPU compute cards. Looking at the HP Z4 G4 middle SKU for $2079:

Z4 G4 Workstation 

Intel® Xeon® W-2102 Processor (2.9 GHz, 8 MB cache, 4 core) 

USB Premium Wired Keyboard

HP Z4 G4 90 465W Chassis 

USB Wired Mouse 

Base - 4 x USB 3.0 Type A 

AMD FirePro™ W2100 (2 GB; 2 DisplayPort 1.2, PCIe) Graphics 

9.5mm DVD Writer Optical Disc Drive 

Windows 10 Pro 64 - HP recommends Windows 10 Pro. 

8 GB (1x8 GB) DDR4-2666 ECC Memory 

1 TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.5" HDD 

3/3/3-year warranty

I only chose this because HP calls it a workstation. Performance wise, it’s nothing to write home about for $2000, but it really factors in HP’s service for it I’m sure. So, what is a user of this machine doing? And there are about half the units at less cost than this, implying even lower specs? What are people doing on these machines, and why is it called a workstation?

There’s going to be a rather arbitrary feature that would lump a generic PC into a workstation category, like Windows “Pro” OS or corporate service. Just a brief survey of the stock models from Dell and HP and an ASP of $1800 would indicate it’s not performance. And yeah, the upcoming Mac Pro should be a 2 socket, 2 GPU, 512 GB RAM, 10 to 20 TB SSD/Optane machine. 

StrangeDays said:

VRing said:

macxpress said:

 If Apple just wanted to pull an HP and just slap a bunch of shit together with a shitty heatsink on it then they could have had a new Mac Pro out before the end of 2017, but obviously Apple isn't going to do that. If that's what makes you happy then by all means go buy the HP. Nearly everything you see on and inside a Mac (or any Apple product for that matter) is custom engineered and built by Apple. Its not as simple as slap a bunch of shit together and call it a day like PC manufacturers do. 

You should really stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

HP makes some excellent workstations from the Z2 Mini:



Up to the Z8:

Is that supposed to be impressive? The old Mac Pro cheese grater cases were more impressive and they’re over 12 years old. 

macxpress said:

VRing said:

macxpress said:

 If Apple just wanted to pull an HP and just slap a bunch of shit together with a shitty heatsink on it then they could have had a new Mac Pro out before the end of 2017, but obviously Apple isn't going to do that. If that's what makes you happy then by all means go buy the HP. Nearly everything you see on and inside a Mac (or any Apple product for that matter) is custom engineered and built by Apple. Its not as simple as slap a bunch of shit together and call it a day like PC manufacturers do. 

You should really stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

HP makes some excellent workstations from the Z2 Mini:



Up to the Z8:

All of which will fail prematurely....

And I'll ask you again, what is your purpose for being here other than to piss all over every single thing Apple does? 

rob53 said:

danvm said:

rob53 said:

I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 

Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.

DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25

nht said:

danvm said:

nht said:

danvm said:

I don't think that many pro's will build their own PC's, but they'll look closely at workstation from vendors like HP.  They have done an excellent in keep their systems up to date.  And many of their modelos are far more capable than Mac Pros and the iMac Pro.  Apple could learn a lot from HP, specially in the workstation market. 

TCO matters and the way your work environment feels matters too...whether it's a $1000 standing desk or a $700 chair or a sleek and quiet $5000 iMac vs a utilitarian $4000 tower and black slab monitor on drab cubicle desk and crappy office.chair.

I suppose you have no idea of what a HP workstation is.  I have seen them in my customers, an while they aren't too nice externally, their components are top notch, plus they are very silent since they have more airflow than an iMac.  Since neither of use have seen personally an iMac Pro, you can't be sure if it's going to be a quiet device.  But there are many people in the web posting about fan noise with the iMac 5k.  Can you imagine how it's going to be when you add to it a Xeon processor?

Even the leanest startup seeks to have a certain geek aesthetic to attract talent because at the end of the day scoring a couple extra hours of work from an employee every day who's happy at his bamboo standing desk with iMac Pro is a positive ROI.  There's just something nice about working with well designed gear.  $2000 doesn't buy a lot of labor hours...

The "geek aesthetic" goes down in importance when you start working.  The internals of the device defines what really is a workstation, and HP is miles ahead of Apple.  You'll notice that the iMac is very similar to the HP Z4, and entry model.  Apple has nothing close to the Z6 or Z8.  I'll suggest you to do some research, and you'll see why I posted  that Apple has much to learn from HP in the workstation market. 

I buy more workstations than anything else.  Granted mostly Dells and Concurrent boxes but I had one of the "quiet" Z800s with the liquid cooler.  No, they aren't more silent.  The damn case fans get noisy after a little bit.