cgWerks

I think the first Mac I used, was a Mac Plus, but I didn't know too much about them at the time, except that I thought the price was rather crazy compared to my Atari 1040ST, especially since it wasn't even color. The school I went to had an obscenely simple CAD app on it that I used to poke fun of. You literally had to type coordinate values, and I could draft circles around it on paper... we know how that ended, though.  (Later, I'd get in debates with traditional publishers about the same thing happening to publishing and desktop publishing, but I wasn't very successful in convincing many of them.)

Then, one of my friends got a Mac II. It was actually one of some initial limited run with signatures inside, and lots of wires and jumpers and such. His brother was a comp-sci prof at Ohio State, and I guess he was able to pull some strings to get it for his little brother. My friends enthusiasm (and that it was color) helped win me over to the Mac, though I still used my Atari for several years, and felt the software was more advanced in terms of what I was able to accomplish with it (or at least what I had access to).

The article brings back some memories, through. My first Mac was an LC, though I used an SE/30 at work to create some illustrations and DTP stuff). I later also had a PowerBook 100... and somewhere in there like a 145 and 165 (if memory serves). I had some odd models and clones through the years too. I bought a used PowerMac G4 somewhere in the 2000s from a friend who worked at Blizzard after he upgraded. But, I think the 2000s were the sweet-spot in terms of Mac pricing value. But, yes, that was a blip on the whole timeline, and pricing now seems to be drifting up more towards more of historical Macs. The mini, IMO, is a killer deal, though (the current exception)!

I had a bunch of MBPs through the 2000s, both personally and company-issued (we'd get new computers at least once per year). I also owned a mini, a couple iMacs, etc. as well as other laptops like MBA and MB.

As an aside, the article also brought up some other memories...

I had the opportunity to talk to Jef Raskin for a couple hours once, but didn't realize who he was at the time other than he had associations with Apple. His son was interested in 3D solids modeling and rendering, and Jef was given my name as someone in the area he could contact to talk more about some of the software I used.

Actually, I ended up meeting a bunch of interesting people via my years in CAD/3D, like John Knoll and Alex Lindsay (on 3D forums I hung out in... I nearly went to one of Alex's early dvGarage meetings, but my work schedule wouldn't allow ), as well as industry pioneers like Tim Olsen (the guy who invented a lot of the CAD GUI innovations and technologies we see today), and even a bona fide rock-star, David Diamond, the former keyboardist/guitarist for the band Berlin (who got into 3D work and wanted a demo of the program I used).

nht said:
... What's the advantage for Apple to trash ASPs and sell $499 machines instead $799 machines? ...

Who cares about ASPs?
Go back and read what Jobs said. He also had ulterior motives to hook the kids, who'd one day be Mac-buying adults, but he also seemed to actually care about helping education and computer exposure, etc. He also didn't seem to let Wall Street dictate how he made his decisions.

melgross said:

Since Apple isn’t advocating doing this, it voids the warrantee if you screw up. Don’t forget that. Is it worth it for cheaper RAM?

Not if you're doing it to save $50 as some of the people commenting on earlier posts about the new mini seemed to be planning.
If you're going to 64 GB, then maybe it's worth it? I'm going to go with 16 GB, so not a chance. That said, I do like the idea that I can go to 32 GB or 64 GB down the road... when it's cheaper and out of warranty anyway. That's a huge plus! Just not at order-time.

rob53 said:

I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.

Their RAM might be as good or better, and they have an exceptional warranty and service. But, IMO, it just isn't worth it at this point. Also, as I noted above, keep in mind that a year or two from now, those 32 GB and 64 GB prices will probably drop. THAT would be the time to do it unless you absolutely need it right now.

johntdavis said:

32GB of RAM at OWC is $329: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/owc/apple-mac-mini/2018
That’s nearly half off Apple’s markup. Definitely worth it. 
And OWC will probably install it for you. 

Maybe, but IMO that's cutting it close in terms of invested time, risk, etc. I guess if OWC did it and had some kind of guarantee (re: what happens if they break it)... but then there is the hassle of shipping and waiting, etc. 16 GB seems a no-brainer just to buy from Apple. 32 GB is more iffy and dependent on circumstances. 64 GB, probably DIY (or have someone competent do it).

sflocal said:

charlesatlas said:

Remember when Apple used to be user-friendly? Flip the entire motherboard on a Powermac out into the open with just the flip of a latch. Likewise pull out all the guts in a G4 Cube with the pull of a handle. RAM slots quickly accessible in a Powerbook just by pulling the battery, no tools at all required. Ah, the good, old days. What's wrong with doing that again, Jonny Ive? Are looks the only things that matter now, with no regard for function?

Those days are long gone.  Time to move on.  The reality is most people will never crack open their PC after purchase.  Never.  There is no point in doing the extra engineering for these machines to accommodate the < 1%.  I'm okay with that.  

Yep. I'm one of those guys who *never* bought more than stock RAM from Apple and upgraded myself. But, there is a limit to how much I'll do to save a buck these days.
But, more to the point, I think the overall quality of these machines with little to no moving parts has gone up enough to make the trade-off worth it. On the other hand, I see little reason why they couldn't do a better design job to have some of both. It does seem somewhat purposeful to keep people from upgrading in some cases (i.e.: iMac line).

maciekskontakt said:

melgross said:

Since Apple isn’t advocating doing this, it voids the warrantee if you screw up. Don’t forget that. Is it worth it for cheaper RAM?

Yes it is. Apple memory is rebranded quality memory that you can get 50% cheaper elsewhere.

Maybe my sample size isn't big enough, but I consider Apple's stock RAM to be somewhat on-par with the higher end of the RAM market. I've had about as many failures with their RAM as with RAM from OWC, for example. The difference is that it has been easier to get OWC to just swap it. So, if one is having issues or anticipates them, I suppose that might favor high-end 3rd party RAM.

Actually, that's a good argument for socketed RAM, in that it's insanely hard to troubleshoot an unstable system if you can't swap the RAM out. I haven't had a RAM issue for years (knock on wood... or at least that I know about), but I'd also have a pretty hard time telling if an unstable machine was RAM oriented if it's soldered in.

maciekskontakt said:
Because you are looking in expensive place. Go to Crucial or Kingston website and not to OWC and buy from them. Your cost estimation is like comparing one expensive place to another. Both places (Appl and OWC) have them, from manufacturers like Samsung, Crucial or others.

Hmm, I'd have to check, but I never noticed that much difference historically. Also, what is the policy for exchange at both? I suppose I'd consider Crucial, all things being equal (though I've had great service over the years from OWC, so I'm not sure about equal). I'd run, no sprint, away from any RAM 'deals' from all but a couple top providers, though. RAM is one thing in the tech world I do NOT want to mess around with. I've spent days of lost time trying to troubleshoot flaky behavior that came down to RAM.

melgross said:
Usually people will deinstalled the RAM they bought, and reinstall the RAM that came with the machine before bringing the computer to Apple. But if it doesnt work with the original RAM, they will know you screwed up, and charge for the repair.

Well, not necessarily the unaware. Some of we hardware-friendly old-timers would just do and know this as second-nature. But, new-comers looking at 'socketed RAM' and looking to save a few bucks might well order the stock mini, get themselves into troubles with the upgrade, possibly break the machine, and also likely not remove the 3rd party RAM before returning it for repair.

Based on some of the forum responses when the mini was announced, I think maybe the warning notices are being underplayed here. And, I think what you wrote was quite appropriate... just maybe more care around the 'void the warranty' term, as it doesn't void the warranty, even if you break it. But, then it's broke and needs repair. So, the warranty wasn't technically voided. (Whereas some products, if you open them at all, it voids the warranty. Even if you don't break anything!)

auxio said:
Exactly.  I'm sure those who know how to do their own car repairs/upgrades complain about the specialized tools and difficulty these days compared the days where you could store extra luggage under the hood of cars there was so much space.  For the rest of us, it's much nicer to drive smaller cars which are far more efficient, less noisy, etc. Technical minded people just can't seem to fathom that the rest of the population doesn't have the same interests they do.

I sort of agree... but there is a line where something is purposely made more difficult to repair with no real benefit to either group. Some of the modern car stuff falls into that category (and I think computer stuff too). The question might be better, how far should Apple go in terms of changing their designs to make stuff like RAM easily accessible, vs accessible to repair shops or skilled people, vs not accessible at all (soldered). I think this was a good compromise, especially given the target market.

vadimyuryev said:
From Apple's October keynote: "Not only is this memory faster, but it's also in SO-DIMMs, something we know our Mac Mini customers will really appreciate." 

What part about that says Apple isn't marketing this machine as supporting user-upgradeable RAM?
Apple obviously gave that feature to customers because they appreciate user-upgradeable RAM.

Huge difference between DIY and DO-able. I think that for the target market, it's more the latter, and greatly appreciated.

sheakun said:

I’ve got a question about the Mac Mini in a small office environment.

I’ve been waiting for an updated Mac Mini for a while now as I think it’s the perfect Mac device for my small office (only about 6 computers).

The issue however is that this is more expensive than I was expecting as I don’t need a powerful device for image/video editing etc. I purely want a device that can handle basic office tasks that also work nicely with the office iPhones and my Apple setup at home where I manage everything. (Everything I own is Apple but currently we are on iPhones in the office which are fine to use and PC’s that are god awful, slow and painful. Incidentally this isn’t a slight against PC’s, just that the ones we have are old and just a pain to work with.)

I want to migrate over to Mac but at the lowest cost possible as I’m only looking for interconnectivity with the ecosystem of other Apple devices that we use. Now that the new Mac Mini is being positioned as much more of a pro device I’ve turned towards the older Mac Mini’s. 

My question then: Is it worthwhile purchasing an older Mac Mini? My only issue is how long they will be able to receive macOS updates as I’m sure they’ll be good enough for basic office tasks.

I think I would have the same concerns you would, in terms of longevity. I suppose if you just need something to get by until you grow and have a bigger budget, etc. then maybe saving, what, like $1200 is worth it? Otherwise, I'd just spend that extra to get the entry level of the new machine.

Also, I'm not sure what all software you run on the PCs, but you might incur other expenses there.

I totally get being on a tight budget, but I wouldn't try to get the savings by buying a fairly old model (even though it is being sold as new currently).

entropys said:

highest specced out Mac mini, once you also get a display, keyboard etc is into iMac Pro price territory, all because of the disgusting price Apple charges for RAM and storage upgrades. And that isn’t for a 5K display.
This would not be makiing me so disappointed if Apple had made the SSD to be user upgradable like the RAM.

Yeah, if you want an all-in-one, the 5k iMac is a great deal. I just don't want an all-in-one.

This is pretty much the machine I was hoping it would be. Good job, Apple!

aegean said:

Price is definitely high. Anyone knows if audio out port on this new Mini is also digital out?

It's a little high, but Apple stuff usually is. Also, would (similar) cheaper PC systems actually be equivalent?

But, here's the thing.... if this works for me, it saves me from having to buy an iMac Pro or a old, but still expensive, Mac Pro. There really wasn't any other option. Now there is. This is as good or better than a MacBook Pro 15", but it's just the computer part so I don't need the screen, TouchBar, crumby keyboard, etc. (The other option I was considering is a 2018 MBP 13" with eGPU, but this is faster, better, cheaper.)

So, unless I find out some bad surprise once people start actually testing them, I'm pretty happy with this.

hentaiboy said:

Mac Mini Base Price at Launch

Mid-2010 $699
Mid-2011 $599
Late 2012 $599
Late 2014 $499
Late 2018 $799

Perhaps Apple should have called it a Pro...

I expected it to be more expensive with higher end processors and SSD, though I guess there is a good point there about the base model (with i3). But, i think the i5/i7 models are priced fairly well considering what we get.

sevenfeet said:

I'm not sure why everybody complains about Mac RAM prices as if it's the first time they see that Apple RAM prices are high.  They've only been pricing RAM this way for 30 years.  At least they gave us an option this time of Bring-Your-Own-DRAM this time.  Try to feel fortunate for that.

Yes, it's not the $500 machine it used to be but neither is the perceived customer base.  Originally this was a machine for switchers who got to keep their monitor, keyboard and mouse.  This machine is for power users (including the SOHO and home theater crowd), creatives who need something other than a laptop, developers and server farm companies.  That's what Apple is marketing this machine to.  Apple is going to sell 20 times more MacBook Airs than this machine in the first three months.  A general purpose machine is not why it exists.

No kidding, and great points. Except, I actually be they will sell quite a few of them. I have no frame of reference for comparison to MacBook Air, but I think they will become a pretty good selling model in their lineup now.

tipoo said:

Tell me more about how the stacking works. If I push a job from Xcode to them, does it split the load between all of them, or does one take over one task, the next takes over the next task in a queue, etc?

I'd imagine even TB3 bandwidth isn't enough for wanting to do main memory accesses across a such stack. 

I can't speak to Xcode, but when I was doing 3D animation/rendering, the app I used had a render-farm app that took jobs from the main app and managed the distribution to any number of machines available on the network. Generally, this would be done over Ethernet, but I suppose it depends on what is being distributed. It probably works differently for other kinds of distributed apps... or maybe it was as simple as each one running a different pro app while one of them was fully available to the user.

I suppose for some users, having a little stack of these with screen-sharing or some kind of KVM switching would be better than having some 18 core monster machine.

fasterquieter said:

I agree with everyone who says this is horribly overpriced. I cursed for a good few hours, but ultimately caved and ordered the $1,100 i5 6-core config, 256GB. I had to reming myself that I am not paying for specs. I am paying to have Mac OS and not Windows. That is worth the markup.

Maybe I'm just out of touch with the PC market, but where do people find the deals on 6-core i5/i7 PCs in a really good design/case with super-fast SSD for cheap prices?

As one of the posts above showed, an example seemed to come in at like $850 or something like that, with lower specs. I'll gladly pay an extra $hundred or two for an Apple with macOS, as you say. But, the way people are talking... it's like Apple is charging double or something.