cgWerks

loopless said:

Deprecating OpenGL will be the 'kiss of death' for many CAE and CAD programs on the Mac. CAE/CAD software has different needs to games. Typically large amount of 3D data with simple rendering - and OpenGL does just fine, thank you.

Yea, and Metal could be far worse depending on how it is tuned. There is a big difference between quick shading on low poly scenes for gaming and high-complexity type work done in CAD or 3D rendering, etc. Is Metal tuned for that kind of stuff? Can it even handle it at all?

For example, I used to regularly work with 3-4 Million poly scenes, and some software apps just couldn't handle it. It makes me wonder what the strengths/weaknesses of OpenGL/CL vs Metal are.

Plus, what does this say about performance?
http://barefeats.com/opencl_v_metal_resolve.html

tomahawk said:
It is interesting that at the same time Microsoft is adding Linux support within Windows, Apple is doing something that might eliminate the compatibility they've had for years.  One of the strong selling points for Mac's with OS X in the scientific community has always been they could run their Unix/Linux programs and Microsoft Office at the same time.  Removing OpenGL will break many of those programs and help push the science community to Windows, where they can now run their Unix/Linux programs and Office.

Well, the tables are turned now, and the suits are in charge. One has to wonder if this is a move, given iOS predominance, to get developers moving towards something proprietary and Apple.

techconc said:
Right now, the only benefit of continuing to support OpenGL is not to break old applications that have not been updated and ported to Metal. It has already been 4 years now since Metal came out. The writing was on the wall. Apple will likely keep OpenGL in the current deprecated state for another release or two of the OS. After that, I would expect it will be gone. The benefits are that all programs that are running on your machine will be much better optimized. At some point, it's time to flush out the stale garbage that hasn't been updated in years. All of the major players are on board. Not just games, but major apps from Adobe, etc. In the end, I believe this is a good thing for the platform overall.

It isn't just old applications though. It's nearly all the CAD, engineering, 3D modeling and animation, graphic production utilities, etc. Or, in other words, most of the high-end creative, engineering, and scientific industries.

And... can you really tell me there would be benefits to moving to Metal? I don't know enough about it to say either way, but I would wonder if it is as robust.

georgie01 said:
Rather than indulge in presumptuous ideas based on passionate feelings, it is a lot more worthwhile to guess that Apple developed Metal because they felt they knew how to get more performance out of their own hardware than an ‘open standard’ could ...

See my link above. I wonder if that is the case. Maybe someone here actually knows about Metal vs OpenGL/CL and strengths/weaknesses/limitations, etc. Until we know more about that, we're all just guessing. As I said above, though, running something like a game is quite different than running high-end 3D CAD or rendering.

auxio said:
1) My wife needed a new laptop.  Her needs from a laptop are communication via email, social media, etc, browsing the web, light graphic design work, and for it to be as easy to handle as possible (small, light, doesn't heat up).  I had no hesitation in buying a MacBook Air for her because I knew that I would need to be doing tech support for the machine whenever anything went wrong.  And, from experience, things go wrong far more often on PCs than Macs (far too many configuration issues).  My time is valuable to me, and so the slightly higher cost of a MBA vs a PC are well worth the headache and time savings from supporting that machine in the long run.  Not to mention that she absolutely loves it.

Unfortunately, my family tech-support time has gone up exponentially in the last decade, so I'm going to soon have to start questioning how much more it would be on Windows vs the downsides of staying on Mac. Unless Apple gets their butts in gear, the lines will soon cross. I'm hoping we see new good hardware, Mojave and beyond are actual solid improvements, and they start cleaning up the mess they made trying to merge iOS and cloud services into macOS... but I need to see some real progress being made.

elijahg said:
So what happens to the applications and games where OpenGL is used for "porting low level code between Linux, Windows and Macs"? In any case OpenGL isn't used to "port low level code", it is the low level code. For tools such as AutoCad, Sketchup, Kicad, Eagle, Blender, GIMP etc ...

And, that's just a start... what about Maya, Houdini, Mono, Rhino, Cinema4D, Mari, VectorWorks.... and hundreds of other smaller apps and utilities. I suppose a few of these might consider Metal. It seems Cinema4D has been working on it, but from some threads I've read, it isn't stable or faster. But, I'm guessing many of these companies will just decide not to support the Mac any longer.

danvm said:
I suppose you haven't work with a Thinkpad's in years if you call them brick.  The X1 Carbon is lighter than the MBP 13", without losing the ports and it has what many people call the best keyboard in the market.  They even are spill resistant.  The 15" models are a little bit heavier than the MBP, but without compromising ports or keyboard quality.  Maybe the MBP 2017 is the best one you ever owned.  But I'm not sure the MBP 2017 is better than the competition.

Yeah, I don't think some of we Mac people realize how much at least the higher end of the PC industry has caught up.
Aside from reading various reviews on machines like the Dell XPS, when my wife brought home her new Lenovo Miix (work issued), it really hit me. We've been in a bubble. While I'm sure many of the PC laptops still suck, it's quite clear there are a number of them, now, that don't.

rob53 said:
I just wish the current administration understands the majority of large US companies are

multinational and getting into a trade war hurts all Americans not just foreign countries. 

It certainly gets tricky with the multi-nationals and products being created in many places, etc. But, I think they are just trying to balance things out some. For example, in the 'trade battle' with Canada, they are imposing tariffs on stuff like aluminum, steel, etc. (if I understand correctly) in an attempt to bargain with Canada on the *massive* tariffs Canada has imposed on stuff like dairy products. (and, while I don't follow the MSM too closely, I've not heard that at all on USA MSM... only a Canadian media outlet, ironically)

mushmash said:
Neither is the United States, it’s ranked as a «flawed democracy» on the democracy index.

That's good, 'cause it isn't supposed to be!
Nothing more scary than a mass of stupid people all enforcing idiocy via ballot.

What is important, is having a firm foundation that guarantees certain rights. The USA had that, most other places don't, democracy or not.
But, even that can't work in a society that has no solid grasp on reality or truth-seeking.