He's like the guy looking over your shoulder and trying to tell you your ruler has its end worn down. But does he have better measurements? NO. So he has no way to know yours are wrong.
Not a good analogy. If he was looking over my shoulder and saw that the ruler was worn down, then he could legitimately say that my reading was in error - even if he had no better data.
But in this case, he has no evidence or rational reason to believe that Apple's data is wrong. The only thing he can provide is his claim that Apple's data is wrong. In that case, he needs to provide some data to support his claim.
It's like the guy claiming that most independent experts are claiming that Apple is wrong. When you make a claim, it's up to you to provide evidence to back that claim. You can't make a claim and then demand that others disprove it (at least, not if you are even a little bit rational).
Lol. So now you want to play semantics of words. What should I have said ? Couple, few, handful, some, many ? LOL Whatever. I think "many" is very appropriate. I didn't know a certain threshold had to be met to use the word "many".
You're seem incapable of rational discussion. You haven't made any valid points. You haven't backed up any of your assertions. There really isn't anything you've said that requires refutation at this point, because all of it is just the hysterical rantings of someone who want's to claim there's this big problem out there when there isn't.
The only one who's playing semantic games is you. If you think it's "many" define want you mean by it, quantify it, back up your numbers with some shred of evidence. Otherwise, all you have to offer is empty meaningless rhetoric where you hide behind the shifting and ambiguous meanings you apply to words and phrases like "many", "most", "experiencing the issue", etc. etc. etc.
You're seem incapable of rational discussion. You haven't made any valid points. You haven't backed up any of your assertions. There really isn't anything you've said that requires refutation at this point, because all of it is just the hysterical rantings of someone who want's to claim there's this big problem out there when there isn't.
The only one who's playing semantic games is you. If you think it's "many" define want you mean by it, quantify it, back up your numbers with some shred of evidence. Otherwise, all you have to offer is empty meaningless rhetoric where you hide behind the shifting and ambiguous meanings you apply to words and phrases like "many", "most", "experiencing the issue", etc. etc. etc.
I think I have made many valid points. But it appears you are too affected by the Apple reality distortion field, that you can't apply simple logic. Your opinion is no better then my opinion. Btw, the very valid points I have brought up are being brought up by many people. Oops, I used a word you hate (many), sorry.
The AppleCare complaints prove that it is a nonissue for at least 99.45% of iP4 users, and that the vast majority of users are happy.
No, it doesn't. It proves that %0.55 know how to call AppleCare. It is well known in the service industry that for every 1 customer who complains there are 10 who have the same problem but do not. For you to not know this shows you have little to no experience in the service arena. And that means you might want to pipe down.
It just occurred to me that Steve Jobs very selectively chose his complaint numbers. OK, so %0.55 called AppleCare. But how many went to the Genius Bar? Or their AT&T store? Or Best Buy?
No, it doesn't. It proves that %0.55 know how to call AppleCare. It is well known in the service industry that for every 1 customer who complains there are 10 who have the same problem but do not. For you to not know this shows you have little to no experience in the service arena. And that means you might want to pipe down.
Nice Urban Legend stat. If that's the case 10:1 then 60% of all iPhone 3GS users should have returned their iPhone.
Grow up and don't cite mathematical probability and statistic hogwash when it defies the laws of Probability and Statistics.
It just occurred to me that Steve Jobs very selectively chose his complaint numbers. OK, so %0.55 called AppleCare. But how many went to the Genius Bar? Or their AT&T store? Or Best Buy?
Yet another case of the Reality Distortion Field.
Do you realize that one of the main reasons we are now involved in a war that has killed over 4400 American solders because of the intelligence failure", i.e., that is relying on the media as a prime source of information, as well as comments and writings proclaimed by so-called experts in the media and on the internet.
Quote:
In the build up to the 2003 war the New York Times published a number of stories claiming to prove that Iraq possessed WMD. One story in particular, written by Judith Miller helped persuade the American public that Iraq had WMD: in September 2002 she wrote about an intercepted shipment of aluminum tubes which the NYT said were to be used to develop nuclear material. It is now clear that they could not be used for that purpose. The story was followed up with television appearances by Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice all pointing to the story as part of the basis for taking military action against Iraq. Miller's sources were introduced to her by Ahmed Chalabi, an Iraqi exile favorable to a U.S. invasion of Iraq. Miller is also listed as a speaker for The Middle East Forum, an organization which openly declared support for an invasion. In May 2004 the New York Times published an editorial which stated that its journalism in the build up to war had sometimes been lax. It appears that in the cases where Iraqi exiles were used for the stories about WMD were either ignorant as to the real status of Iraq's WMD or lied to journalists to achieve their own ends.
Sound a lot like guys like you, sky1 and many (as you define) others here.
Perhaps when you have built up your research facilities a few hundred million dollars or so, (like no one organization except Apple has come close to by the way), then come back. I would be more willing to listen to you then, than the total shit you spew now.
It's like the oil spill in the Gulf. Great. The well is capped. The shit can and will be removed. Unfortunately, the shitters, and that is not only the oil companies, are still there.
I really have to wonder why I should even be here.
But knowing Apple and how much they put into research and development, I do find it rather unbelievable how many here so negative.
As someone else has posted in another forum, who would you trust more: diagnostic findings from a hundred million dollar research lab or on equipment you can get from Radio Shack?
Really ? So you believe that since Applecare only had 0.55% of the customers call in on the problem, this must accurately represent the actual number of people experiencing this issue ? Many people are aware of this issue. Many of these same people know Apple is aware of the issue. So why would the customer ....
I know you are mostly arguing with anonymouse here, but I can't stand to read this junk anymore. The whole idea that the 0.55% of people who called AppleCare over this is some kind "managed statistic," or that it isn't representative of the true return rate is a total crock.
Yes, those that call AppleCare and those that get AppleCare are generally a different kind of customer from average. They are smarter, they are more knowledgeable about Apple in general and more likely to wait before calling AppleCare. They are more likely to not be whiners (they are insured after all), they are more likely to be following the issue in the press and more likely to be waiting for the results of the press conference. Everything you think about this group that biases the response might in fact be absolutely true.
However, there is also a startlingly low (and very similar), return rate to AT&T stores.
It could easily be argued, (and I'm going to do it here), that this second group is the exact opposite of the first. That this group of folks who bought it from AT&T (not Apple), are *not* "Apple-followers" and *don't* read the press about such things. These folks are just people who bought a phone from a store and want to return it because it doesn't seem to work for them. If we believe that the first group has bias one way, surely this group is almost certainly the exact opposite in every way.
The reality is that both of these differing groups of people questioned the phone's utility and possibly even returned the phone at pretty much the same ratio. The very low rate of return and the very low rate of dissatisfaction is the same whether the customer was following the news or not, and whether they were an Apple groupie or not.
If every study could be discounted by saying "well, yeah, but most of those folks that didn't (do "x" or whatever) were probably *thinking* of doing it." ... then no study could ever be trusted. What you are saying about the AppleCare group might sound reasonable when you say it, but logically it's total nonsense without some kind of detailed supporting evidence to that effect.
However, there is also a startlingly low (and very similar), return rate to AT&T stores.
Reporting return rates before the product has even been out 30 days is a little premature. Like I said earlier, I imagine there are people that were waiting for Apple's response before returning it. They have a 30 day trial. Besides the reception flaw, it's great phone. In my eyes, the return rate is only relevant after the 30 day mark. I bet Apple won't report an updated return rate later.
Reporting return rates before the product has even been out 30 days is a little premature. Like I said earlier, I imagine there are people that were waiting for Apple's response before returning it. They have a 30 day trial. Besides the reception flaw, it's great phone. In my eyes, the return rate is only relevant after the 30 day mark. I bet Apple won't report an updated return rate later.
As usual, you're imagining things.
The reported statement was that 1.7% of iPhone 4 units had be returned compared to 6% of iPhone 3GS units DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD AFTER LAUNCH.
(Just one example, but the other sites I saw said the same thing):
And, as I said, you are comparing Apples to oranges. I bet Apple won't be updating their return rates after the 30-day trial period is over.
It?s the same time frame YoY from the launch of these phones, yet one is almost ¼ the other. There is no argument you could possible have unless you want to change your stance to "Apple is lying", because after 30 days we?ll need to move the goal posts for both the 3GS and iPhone 4 before making other consistent comparisons.
It’s the same time frame YoY from the launch of these phones, yet one is almost ¼ the other. There is no argument you could possible have unless you want to change your stance to "Apple is lying", because after 30 days we’ll need to move the goal posts for both the 3GS and iPhone 4 before making other consistent comparisons.
Huh ? My point being that there was X amount of people that where probably going to return the phone because of this issue, but they were waiting for Apple's response/fix. So they had nothing to lose to continue using the phone until the end of the 30 day trial. Some of these people will not be satisifed with the bumper solution and return the phone. So comparing return rates when the phone has been on the market less the 3 weeks is a bit premature. Showing a return rate AFTER the phone has been on the market more then 30 days, will be more convincing to me. And yes of course for the comparision, move the goal post for the 3GS too.
Huh ? My point being that there was X amount of people that where probably going to return the phone because of this issue, but they were waiting for Apple response/fix. So they had nothing to lose to continue using the phone until the end of the 30 day trial. Some of these people will not be satisifed with the bumper solution and return the phone. So comparing return rates when the phone has been on the market less the 3 weeks is a bit premature. Showing a return rate AFTER the phone has been on the market more then 30 days, will be more convincing to me. And yes of course for the comparision, move the goal post for the 3GS too.
So your argument is that 3 weeks of 3GS sales SHOULD HAVE over 3x as many returns than 3 weeks of iPhone 4 sales because there nothing ?wrong? with the 3GS?
So your argument is that 3 weeks of 3GS sales SHOULD HAVE over 3x as many returns than 3 weeks of iPhone 4 sales because there nothing ?wrong? with the 3GS?
I never said such a thing. My point being that an accurate return rate for the antenna issue on the iPhone 4 will not being fully realized until after July 24.
I never said such a thing. My point being that an accurate return rate for the antenna issue on the iPhone 4 will not being fully realized until after July 24.
That?s exactly what you implied, even if you didn?t mean to make that your point. You won?t accept 3 weeks of new sales data from both phones and claim that the iPhone 4 return percentage is lower because of a possible ?fix? so there is an inherent conclusion you?ve made that the 3GS return rate numbers should be higher because there is nothing wrong, ergo nothing for users to wait for.
By your logic the sales of the iPhone 4 should be substantially lower, too, since people would be "waiting for Apple response/fix? before buying, yet the iPhone 4 sold ?well over" 3 million in the first 3 weeks so the 3GS should have sold more than that. Three times as many? No, they didn?t even sell 3x as many as that in the first full quarter of 3GS sales which totaled 7.4M.
Every avenue comes to the same intersection: it?s the best phone on the market and the problem ricocheting through the internets only affects very few people when it comes to making the iPhone 4 their phone of choice.
Comments
1.77% return rate
0.55% Apple Care complaints
This is a NON-ISSUE for 99% of iPhone 4 owners
Even more than 99% -
The AppleCare complaints prove that it is a nonissue for at least 99.45% of iP4 users, and that the vast majority of users are happy.
He's like the guy looking over your shoulder and trying to tell you your ruler has its end worn down. But does he have better measurements? NO. So he has no way to know yours are wrong.
Not a good analogy. If he was looking over my shoulder and saw that the ruler was worn down, then he could legitimately say that my reading was in error - even if he had no better data.
But in this case, he has no evidence or rational reason to believe that Apple's data is wrong. The only thing he can provide is his claim that Apple's data is wrong. In that case, he needs to provide some data to support his claim.
It's like the guy claiming that most independent experts are claiming that Apple is wrong. When you make a claim, it's up to you to provide evidence to back that claim. You can't make a claim and then demand that others disprove it (at least, not if you are even a little bit rational).
Lol. So now you want to play semantics of words. What should I have said ? Couple, few, handful, some, many ? LOL Whatever. I think "many" is very appropriate. I didn't know a certain threshold had to be met to use the word "many".
You're seem incapable of rational discussion. You haven't made any valid points. You haven't backed up any of your assertions. There really isn't anything you've said that requires refutation at this point, because all of it is just the hysterical rantings of someone who want's to claim there's this big problem out there when there isn't.
The only one who's playing semantic games is you. If you think it's "many" define want you mean by it, quantify it, back up your numbers with some shred of evidence. Otherwise, all you have to offer is empty meaningless rhetoric where you hide behind the shifting and ambiguous meanings you apply to words and phrases like "many", "most", "experiencing the issue", etc. etc. etc.
You're seem incapable of rational discussion. You haven't made any valid points. You haven't backed up any of your assertions. There really isn't anything you've said that requires refutation at this point, because all of it is just the hysterical rantings of someone who want's to claim there's this big problem out there when there isn't.
The only one who's playing semantic games is you. If you think it's "many" define want you mean by it, quantify it, back up your numbers with some shred of evidence. Otherwise, all you have to offer is empty meaningless rhetoric where you hide behind the shifting and ambiguous meanings you apply to words and phrases like "many", "most", "experiencing the issue", etc. etc. etc.
I think I have made many valid points. But it appears you are too affected by the Apple reality distortion field, that you can't apply simple logic. Your opinion is no better then my opinion. Btw, the very valid points I have brought up are being brought up by many people. Oops, I used a word you hate (many), sorry.
Even more than 99% -
The AppleCare complaints prove that it is a nonissue for at least 99.45% of iP4 users, and that the vast majority of users are happy.
No, it doesn't. It proves that %0.55 know how to call AppleCare. It is well known in the service industry that for every 1 customer who complains there are 10 who have the same problem but do not. For you to not know this shows you have little to no experience in the service arena. And that means you might want to pipe down.
Yet another case of the Reality Distortion Field.
No, it doesn't. It proves that %0.55 know how to call AppleCare. It is well known in the service industry that for every 1 customer who complains there are 10 who have the same problem but do not. For you to not know this shows you have little to no experience in the service arena. And that means you might want to pipe down.
Nice Urban Legend stat. If that's the case 10:1 then 60% of all iPhone 3GS users should have returned their iPhone.
Grow up and don't cite mathematical probability and statistic hogwash when it defies the laws of Probability and Statistics.
It just occurred to me that Steve Jobs very selectively chose his complaint numbers. OK, so %0.55 called AppleCare. But how many went to the Genius Bar? Or their AT&T store? Or Best Buy?
Yet another case of the Reality Distortion Field.
Do you realize that one of the main reasons we are now involved in a war that has killed over 4400 American solders because of the intelligence failure", i.e., that is relying on the media as a prime source of information, as well as comments and writings proclaimed by so-called experts in the media and on the internet. Sound a lot like guys like you, sky1 and many (as you define) others here.
Perhaps when you have built up your research facilities a few hundred million dollars or so, (like no one organization except Apple has come close to by the way), then come back. I would be more willing to listen to you then, than the total shit you spew now.
It's like the oil spill in the Gulf. Great. The well is capped. The shit can and will be removed. Unfortunately, the shitters, and that is not only the oil companies, are still there.
But knowing Apple and how much they put into research and development, I do find it rather unbelievable how many here so negative.
As someone else has posted in another forum, who would you trust more: diagnostic findings from a hundred million dollar research lab or on equipment you can get from Radio Shack?
I tend to lean to the former.
Really ? So you believe that since Applecare only had 0.55% of the customers call in on the problem, this must accurately represent the actual number of people experiencing this issue ? Many people are aware of this issue. Many of these same people know Apple is aware of the issue. So why would the customer ....
I know you are mostly arguing with anonymouse here, but I can't stand to read this junk anymore. The whole idea that the 0.55% of people who called AppleCare over this is some kind "managed statistic," or that it isn't representative of the true return rate is a total crock.
Yes, those that call AppleCare and those that get AppleCare are generally a different kind of customer from average. They are smarter, they are more knowledgeable about Apple in general and more likely to wait before calling AppleCare. They are more likely to not be whiners (they are insured after all), they are more likely to be following the issue in the press and more likely to be waiting for the results of the press conference. Everything you think about this group that biases the response might in fact be absolutely true.
However, there is also a startlingly low (and very similar), return rate to AT&T stores.
It could easily be argued, (and I'm going to do it here), that this second group is the exact opposite of the first. That this group of folks who bought it from AT&T (not Apple), are *not* "Apple-followers" and *don't* read the press about such things. These folks are just people who bought a phone from a store and want to return it because it doesn't seem to work for them. If we believe that the first group has bias one way, surely this group is almost certainly the exact opposite in every way.
The reality is that both of these differing groups of people questioned the phone's utility and possibly even returned the phone at pretty much the same ratio. The very low rate of return and the very low rate of dissatisfaction is the same whether the customer was following the news or not, and whether they were an Apple groupie or not.
If every study could be discounted by saying "well, yeah, but most of those folks that didn't (do "x" or whatever) were probably *thinking* of doing it." ... then no study could ever be trusted. What you are saying about the AppleCare group might sound reasonable when you say it, but logically it's total nonsense without some kind of detailed supporting evidence to that effect.
However, there is also a startlingly low (and very similar), return rate to AT&T stores.
Reporting return rates before the product has even been out 30 days is a little premature. Like I said earlier, I imagine there are people that were waiting for Apple's response before returning it. They have a 30 day trial. Besides the reception flaw, it's great phone. In my eyes, the return rate is only relevant after the 30 day mark. I bet Apple won't report an updated return rate later.
Reporting return rates before the product has even been out 30 days is a little premature. Like I said earlier, I imagine there are people that were waiting for Apple's response before returning it. They have a 30 day trial. Besides the reception flaw, it's great phone. In my eyes, the return rate is only relevant after the 30 day mark. I bet Apple won't report an updated return rate later.
As usual, you're imagining things.
The reported statement was that 1.7% of iPhone 4 units had be returned compared to 6% of iPhone 3GS units DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD AFTER LAUNCH.
(Just one example, but the other sites I saw said the same thing):
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...a_full_refund/
So much for your rationalization.
As usual, you're imagining things.
The reported statement was that 1.7% of iPhone 4 units had be returned compared to 6% of iPhone 3GS units DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD AFTER LAUNCH.
(Just one example, but the other sites I saw said the same thing):
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...a_full_refund/
So much for your rationalization.
And, as I said, you are comparing Apples to oranges. I bet Apple won't be updating their return rates after the 30-day trial period is over.
And, as I said, you are comparing Apples to oranges. I bet Apple won't be updating their return rates after the 30-day trial period is over.
Could you be a little more specific. What 30-day trial are you referring to.
I wouldn't mind taking your bet. My short attendance here vs your babbling. Loser never to return.
Lets say Apple has till the end of its fiscal year report? Around the 20th of October. That should give you more time to get your research together.
And, as I said, you are comparing Apples to oranges. I bet Apple won't be updating their return rates after the 30-day trial period is over.
It?s the same time frame YoY from the launch of these phones, yet one is almost ¼ the other. There is no argument you could possible have unless you want to change your stance to "Apple is lying", because after 30 days we?ll need to move the goal posts for both the 3GS and iPhone 4 before making other consistent comparisons.
It’s the same time frame YoY from the launch of these phones, yet one is almost ¼ the other. There is no argument you could possible have unless you want to change your stance to "Apple is lying", because after 30 days we’ll need to move the goal posts for both the 3GS and iPhone 4 before making other consistent comparisons.
Huh ? My point being that there was X amount of people that where probably going to return the phone because of this issue, but they were waiting for Apple's response/fix. So they had nothing to lose to continue using the phone until the end of the 30 day trial. Some of these people will not be satisifed with the bumper solution and return the phone. So comparing return rates when the phone has been on the market less the 3 weeks is a bit premature. Showing a return rate AFTER the phone has been on the market more then 30 days, will be more convincing to me. And yes of course for the comparision, move the goal post for the 3GS too.
Huh ? My point being that there was X amount of people that where probably going to return the phone because of this issue, but they were waiting for Apple response/fix. So they had nothing to lose to continue using the phone until the end of the 30 day trial. Some of these people will not be satisifed with the bumper solution and return the phone. So comparing return rates when the phone has been on the market less the 3 weeks is a bit premature. Showing a return rate AFTER the phone has been on the market more then 30 days, will be more convincing to me. And yes of course for the comparision, move the goal post for the 3GS too.
So your argument is that 3 weeks of 3GS sales SHOULD HAVE over 3x as many returns than 3 weeks of iPhone 4 sales because there nothing ?wrong? with the 3GS?
So your argument is that 3 weeks of 3GS sales SHOULD HAVE over 3x as many returns than 3 weeks of iPhone 4 sales because there nothing ?wrong? with the 3GS?
I never said such a thing. My point being that an accurate return rate for the antenna issue on the iPhone 4 will not being fully realized until after July 24.
I never said such a thing. My point being that an accurate return rate for the antenna issue on the iPhone 4 will not being fully realized until after July 24.
That?s exactly what you implied, even if you didn?t mean to make that your point. You won?t accept 3 weeks of new sales data from both phones and claim that the iPhone 4 return percentage is lower because of a possible ?fix? so there is an inherent conclusion you?ve made that the 3GS return rate numbers should be higher because there is nothing wrong, ergo nothing for users to wait for.
By your logic the sales of the iPhone 4 should be substantially lower, too, since people would be "waiting for Apple response/fix? before buying, yet the iPhone 4 sold ?well over" 3 million in the first 3 weeks so the 3GS should have sold more than that. Three times as many? No, they didn?t even sell 3x as many as that in the first full quarter of 3GS sales which totaled 7.4M.
Every avenue comes to the same intersection: it?s the best phone on the market and the problem ricocheting through the internets only affects very few people when it comes to making the iPhone 4 their phone of choice.