How does Amazon count best sellers? Do they only count sales in the last hour, or is it some sort of cumulative total, updated hourly? If it is cumulative, the newest touch would be at a significant disadvantage as the ZuneHD has been available for quite some time.
This is a brand which has been on the market since 2006? It's evolving terribly. I don't doubt the ZuneHD has some good points, it does. But this is surely the final role of the dice on the hardware stakes. This is a tremendously competitive market Microsoft is entering and they've yet to make a dent. The PC and player software is fairly decent and should be used to form the basis of the media features of Win Mobile 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggawho90
"Despite the hype, the Zune HD appears to have failed before even hitting the market"
is that why zune 32 is outselling itouch 32 on amazon?
It is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominiej
?chart snipped?
[1] Touchscreen - No clear win for OLED, as explained in the article.
[2] Amazon are selling the 32GB for less.
[3] Why are IEm6 and Safari tied? Has anyone seen IEm6 in action on this device? The HTML 5, CSS 3 and Javascript Nitro engine will surely give the iPod the advantage.
[4] Battery life is only useful in the real world. I wouldn't trust either manufacturers quoted statistics, so let's see real life, independent tests before this is decided.
[5] The App Support shouldn't be a tie. Apple has thousands of apps and games available today. The Zune will be starting with zero apps available. Clear iPod win.
That chart neatly ignores other features of the iPod touch, such as Nike + support, voice control, movie rentals, rich email, voice memos, multiple language support etc.
I own an iPhone and I owned two Zunes (30 and 80). I sold the Zune's to purchase the HD.
Okay, now that that is out of the way, I'd like to address two quick points:
The Darkroom Conspiracy
"Microsoft knows this, which is why it only demonstrates the Zune HD in dark rooms. Engadget filmed a full demonstration, including the device's incapacity to pull up a web page, in a suspiciously dark room without even noting this...."
Nonsense. A couple of weeks ago, the Zune HD went the rounds to a large number of Best Buy stores and were demonstarted. Say what you will, Best Buy (mine is exceptionally bright) is not a secluded darkroom. People saw the demos, recorded video of the device in action (check YouTube). There were no complaints. As I said, I bought one. I should get it tomorrow. I'll post a photo for you.
MS and Games
"If Microsoft is doing that poorly in games and web browsers, what can one expect from the Zune software store, from media integration, and from the third party developers Microsoft has abandoned along with its past Zune initiatives?"
What we have here is a blanket statement about MS and games that fails to note the success of Xbox. To say MS is doing poorly in game is silly. To say they even pulled the plug on developers is a bit rash nd probably not accurate. The XNA developers club is still in action for Xbox and, it would stand to reason for the new Zune. Will the code need tweaking? Perhaps. I do not know and neither does the author. Most likely, it will be no big deal. Disclaimer: I've created the graphics for a game that was developed for the Zune under XNA and ported (with relative ease) to the Xbox.
Question: Do you think that the game company that created the Xbox, the same company that is merging the Zune experience with its gaming platform...the same company that has given developers the tools to create games for both platforms is going to sit by and watch Apple take market share? No way. By the way, did you catch the video clip of the device running what some claim was a port of Forza 3? If not, take a look:
Regarding the OLED display, here's a shot clearly done in a bright room (note the reflection of the window in the background), and too my eyes it looks like the Zune still has a plenty bright screen:
In his CNET preview Donald Bell doesn't complain about the OLED screen's viewability, and he's actually seen it in a bright room.
That still doesn't answer how it'll look in direct sunlight, but from the original AI post, you'd think the Zune has to be watched in near darkness for it to look good. As long as it looks good in a brightly lit room then I'll be fine.
umm self proclaimed PWNED mean nothing. That side by side does clearly favour the flip, but I wouldn't say 10x better (of course that is subjective). That is only one example and there are other direct comparisons where nano performs a lot closer to the flip.
How does you saying that the iPhone and IPod touch have different graphics processors, without providing a link represent any form of a rebuttal? I just double checked the ifixit teardowns and they didn't provide any additional insight except that the arm chip in touch appears to be slightly newer than that in the 3gs. Apple does report lower battery life on the third gen compared to the second gen for audio only. Did you ever consider that perhaps the bitrate of song they were considering as average audio file may have gone up??? I seem to remember itunes songs jumping from 128 kbps to 256 kbps in January, which coincidentally was after the 2nd gen launch, but before the 3rd gen launch. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the Zune, I said we should wait for the Zune to come out before determining a winner in the battery life wars. Advertised claims are not the same as real results.
Enjoy your self declared PWNing and your Zunes 15 minutes of fame at the top of the Amazon charts. PS. I have nothing against the ZuneHD, I just found your rabid (and largely baseless) rant annoying.
there is NO significant different between itouch 2g and itouch 3g
OpenGL ES 2.0's pretty big. Doubling the system RAM is also nice, especially for games (where the increased texture memory should be handy). Granted the processor speed only increased from 533 to 600mhz?
Quote:
itouch's graphic is worse than iphone
Erm? same screen, same graphics card, same sharing of system RAM for VRAM. (Without the phone stuff running, the touch has more free memory for apps, which means more can be used for VRAM, so it might even have better graphics than iphone.)
Quote:
and finally, thanks for a great article, it shows the fear in your eyes
if you had no fear, you wouldn't have written this article
Well, I didn't write the article, so I guess I can't respond to this one. Let's just point at the app store. 85,000 apps. I'll say that again, 85,000 apps. Seems like a good metric for success to me
Let me know when Microsoft have that many apps on a mobile device. I look forward to it. (Competition is always a win for consumers.)
if apple uses oled and HD video output, he/she is going to write an article to how great it is....and sing a different tune
i remember when they said, "FM radio? who listens to FM radio these days? why would you want FM in your mp3?"
and what happened next? oh, that's right
I will agree to that. AI's reports are slanted towards Apple products. However, many of the early hurdles for OLED will likely be cleared by the time Apple switches to it. OLED a year from now will be better than OLED now, and it will likely mark a larger improvement than traditional LCD will experience over that same time period. We will really need to see these devices side by side to make true comparisons. Although, as I said earlier, it is the software that will really make or break the Zune.
And you obviously missed the part about the fact that you're not actually keeping them.
Lots of apps available to stream the 'millions of tracks' you speak of.
Actually you get to keep 10 DRM-free MP3s a month as part of your $15 subscription cost. Most of the songs on my iPhone at this point are from my Zune subscription!
So, as long as you were going to be buying at least 10 songs per month anyways, then that means you're only paying an extra $5 bucks for access to those millions of songs.
Oh, and most of those other services you talk about do NOT let you exactly specify playlist order, listen to entire CDs at once, etc.. Oh, and most of them don't let you store that music for offline listening. Slacker does, but you can't specify exactly what you want to hear and in what order. Rhapsody for the iPhone now does, but you have to be streaming, and are SOL if out of any WiFi/3G signal range.
Why is it when AppleInsider posted this article 8/13/2009 regarding the Tablet and the "rumored" OLED the forum was oooozing with enthusiasm?
Now OLED is crap because Microsoft beat Apple to the Punch?
I'd be careful on your slamming as there are 5 pages of postings praising Apple for their "rumored" Tablet and their genius for being on the cutting edge.
I see many of the usual suspects in the postings praising it as the best Screen res and Brilliant Colors that you can only get with OLED...
And you obviously missed the part about the fact that you're not actually keeping them.
Lots of apps available to stream the 'millions of tracks' you speak of.
So the apps you speake of give you the ability to choose, sort, stop, skip, and repeat songs as you wish, and add the songs to playlists natively from your device, and play them while you email or surf the web on that device?
Sorry, I'd pay the $15 per month to have control of music I actually like and keep $10 songs. Keep your uncontrolable music apps that make you "feel" like your in control...
I agree that this article is on the biased side of the argument. However, if you were to pull the statistics alone out of that article and compare them, the writer has a point.
I'm not saying that Apple's products are flawless (trust me, my MacBook overheats all the time), but they do tend to have a better grasp on what people want. I own a 2nd Gen iPod touch. I love it. It has everything I wanted in a player (honestly, I don't even listen to the radio).
I was one a Microsoft fan-boy... 10 years ago. Until I realized that Microsoft has no originality. Perhaps the Zune HD is a great device (assuming it's better than their last attempts), but the thing that pisses me off about it, is that once again, Microsoft has to copy what the other guy is doing to get a product to market. Would we even be having this argument if the Zune weren't made by a company with such a big name?
And now I get to sit back and watch MY reply get over-analyzed and hacked to pieces. Have fun!
Comments
Zune Pass [/B]where you get millions of tracks to download for $15 per month and keep 10 songs of your choice,
Hmm...that works out to be more expensive per song that you actually keep.
that happened AFTER another $20 price drop
this is before, until today's price drop
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/192/zunehdnumbuh1.png
How does Amazon count best sellers? Do they only count sales in the last hour, or is it some sort of cumulative total, updated hourly? If it is cumulative, the newest touch would be at a significant disadvantage as the ZuneHD has been available for quite some time.
Hmm...that works out to be more expensive per song that you actually keep.
Did you miss the part about getting to listen to millions of tracks of your choice? Can you do that on iTunes?
Lets see how zune evolves.
This is a brand which has been on the market since 2006? It's evolving terribly. I don't doubt the ZuneHD has some good points, it does. But this is surely the final role of the dice on the hardware stakes. This is a tremendously competitive market Microsoft is entering and they've yet to make a dent. The PC and player software is fairly decent and should be used to form the basis of the media features of Win Mobile 7.
"Despite the hype, the Zune HD appears to have failed before even hitting the market"
is that why zune 32 is outselling itouch 32 on amazon?
It is?
?chart snipped?
[1] Touchscreen - No clear win for OLED, as explained in the article.
[2] Amazon are selling the 32GB for less.
[3] Why are IEm6 and Safari tied? Has anyone seen IEm6 in action on this device? The HTML 5, CSS 3 and Javascript Nitro engine will surely give the iPod the advantage.
[4] Battery life is only useful in the real world. I wouldn't trust either manufacturers quoted statistics, so let's see real life, independent tests before this is decided.
[5] The App Support shouldn't be a tie. Apple has thousands of apps and games available today. The Zune will be starting with zero apps available. Clear iPod win.
That chart neatly ignores other features of the iPod touch, such as Nike + support, voice control, movie rentals, rich email, voice memos, multiple language support etc.
I own an iPhone and I owned two Zunes (30 and 80). I sold the Zune's to purchase the HD.
Okay, now that that is out of the way, I'd like to address two quick points:
The Darkroom Conspiracy
"Microsoft knows this, which is why it only demonstrates the Zune HD in dark rooms. Engadget filmed a full demonstration, including the device's incapacity to pull up a web page, in a suspiciously dark room without even noting this...."
Nonsense. A couple of weeks ago, the Zune HD went the rounds to a large number of Best Buy stores and were demonstarted. Say what you will, Best Buy (mine is exceptionally bright) is not a secluded darkroom. People saw the demos, recorded video of the device in action (check YouTube). There were no complaints. As I said, I bought one. I should get it tomorrow. I'll post a photo for you.
MS and Games
"If Microsoft is doing that poorly in games and web browsers, what can one expect from the Zune software store, from media integration, and from the third party developers Microsoft has abandoned along with its past Zune initiatives?"
What we have here is a blanket statement about MS and games that fails to note the success of Xbox. To say MS is doing poorly in game is silly. To say they even pulled the plug on developers is a bit rash nd probably not accurate. The XNA developers club is still in action for Xbox and, it would stand to reason for the new Zune. Will the code need tweaking? Perhaps. I do not know and neither does the author. Most likely, it will be no big deal. Disclaimer: I've created the graphics for a game that was developed for the Zune under XNA and ported (with relative ease) to the Xbox.
Question: Do you think that the game company that created the Xbox, the same company that is merging the Zune experience with its gaming platform...the same company that has given developers the tools to create games for both platforms is going to sit by and watch Apple take market share? No way. By the way, did you catch the video clip of the device running what some claim was a port of Forza 3? If not, take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok612YNA_Sc
My guess with the games: Full "3D" games with Xbox Live intergration. Wait for it. It's coming.
agion1
That chart neatly ignores other features of the iPod touch, such as blah, blah, blah...
O, you mean like how the article does the same thing? My response was in kind...
O, you mean like how the article does the same thing? My response was in kind...
The article was pointing out that certain features of the Zune were possibly not as exciting as they first appear.
Your chart was meant to be presented as a buying guide (which are normally impartial) and it was nothing of the sort.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12519_7-10303243-49.html
In his CNET preview Donald Bell doesn't complain about the OLED screen's viewability, and he's actually seen it in a bright room.
That still doesn't answer how it'll look in direct sunlight, but from the original AI post, you'd think the Zune has to be watched in near darkness for it to look good. As long as it looks good in a brightly lit room then I'll be fine.
i'm full of it? i'll prove you wrong with videos
first, look at my previous post, zune 32 was selling much higher until today when amazon had a price drop
2nd, itouch and iphone are not internally similar, they have a different graphic processor
3rd, 3rd generation of itouch has less battery life than 2nd, if you don't believe me, check the offical apple site
3rd there is a side by side video
http://dvice.com/archives/2009/09/side-by-side-vi.php
PWNED but thanks for trying
next time, try harder
umm self proclaimed PWNED mean nothing. That side by side does clearly favour the flip, but I wouldn't say 10x better (of course that is subjective). That is only one example and there are other direct comparisons where nano performs a lot closer to the flip.
How does you saying that the iPhone and IPod touch have different graphics processors, without providing a link represent any form of a rebuttal? I just double checked the ifixit teardowns and they didn't provide any additional insight except that the arm chip in touch appears to be slightly newer than that in the 3gs. Apple does report lower battery life on the third gen compared to the second gen for audio only. Did you ever consider that perhaps the bitrate of song they were considering as average audio file may have gone up??? I seem to remember itunes songs jumping from 128 kbps to 256 kbps in January, which coincidentally was after the 2nd gen launch, but before the 3rd gen launch. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the Zune, I said we should wait for the Zune to come out before determining a winner in the battery life wars. Advertised claims are not the same as real results.
Enjoy your self declared PWNing and your Zunes 15 minutes of fame at the top of the Amazon charts. PS. I have nothing against the ZuneHD, I just found your rabid (and largely baseless) rant annoying.
I think this article just made up my mind....
if apple uses oled and HD video output, he/she is going to write an article to how great it is....and sing a different tune
i remember when they said, "FM radio? who listens to FM radio these days? why would you want FM in your mp3?"
and what happened next? oh, that's right
Did you miss the part about getting to listen to millions of tracks of your choice? Can you do that on iTunes?
And you obviously missed the part about the fact that you're not actually keeping them.
Lots of apps available to stream the 'millions of tracks' you speak of.
there is NO significant different between itouch 2g and itouch 3g
OpenGL ES 2.0's pretty big. Doubling the system RAM is also nice, especially for games (where the increased texture memory should be handy). Granted the processor speed only increased from 533 to 600mhz?
itouch's graphic is worse than iphone
Erm? same screen, same graphics card, same sharing of system RAM for VRAM. (Without the phone stuff running, the touch has more free memory for apps, which means more can be used for VRAM, so it might even have better graphics than iphone.)
and finally, thanks for a great article, it shows the fear in your eyes
if you had no fear, you wouldn't have written this article
Well, I didn't write the article, so I guess I can't respond to this one. Let's just point at the app store. 85,000 apps. I'll say that again, 85,000 apps. Seems like a good metric for success to me
Let me know when Microsoft have that many apps on a mobile device. I look forward to it. (Competition is always a win for consumers.)
Amorya
if apple uses oled and HD video output, he/she is going to write an article to how great it is....and sing a different tune
i remember when they said, "FM radio? who listens to FM radio these days? why would you want FM in your mp3?"
and what happened next? oh, that's right
I will agree to that. AI's reports are slanted towards Apple products. However, many of the early hurdles for OLED will likely be cleared by the time Apple switches to it. OLED a year from now will be better than OLED now, and it will likely mark a larger improvement than traditional LCD will experience over that same time period. We will really need to see these devices side by side to make true comparisons. Although, as I said earlier, it is the software that will really make or break the Zune.
Poor, poor widdle Micwosoft. (You big meanie!!)
And you obviously missed the part about the fact that you're not actually keeping them.
Lots of apps available to stream the 'millions of tracks' you speak of.
Actually you get to keep 10 DRM-free MP3s a month as part of your $15 subscription cost. Most of the songs on my iPhone at this point are from my Zune subscription!
So, as long as you were going to be buying at least 10 songs per month anyways, then that means you're only paying an extra $5 bucks for access to those millions of songs.
Oh, and most of those other services you talk about do NOT let you exactly specify playlist order, listen to entire CDs at once, etc.. Oh, and most of them don't let you store that music for offline listening. Slacker does, but you can't specify exactly what you want to hear and in what order. Rhapsody for the iPhone now does, but you have to be streaming, and are SOL if out of any WiFi/3G signal range.
Now OLED is crap because Microsoft beat Apple to the Punch?
I'd be careful on your slamming as there are 5 pages of postings praising Apple for their "rumored" Tablet and their genius for being on the cutting edge.
I see many of the usual suspects in the postings praising it as the best Screen res and Brilliant Colors that you can only get with OLED...
Apple Insider article for your reference.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=101645
A bit hypocritical today aren?t we?
Now comes the 10,000 reason why because it's on a 10 inch tablet it makes all the difference in the world.
And you obviously missed the part about the fact that you're not actually keeping them.
Lots of apps available to stream the 'millions of tracks' you speak of.
So the apps you speake of give you the ability to choose, sort, stop, skip, and repeat songs as you wish, and add the songs to playlists natively from your device, and play them while you email or surf the web on that device?
Sorry, I'd pay the $15 per month to have control of music I actually like and keep $10 songs. Keep your uncontrolable music apps that make you "feel" like your in control...
LULZ
A few corrections:
I agree that this article is on the biased side of the argument. However, if you were to pull the statistics alone out of that article and compare them, the writer has a point.
I'm not saying that Apple's products are flawless (trust me, my MacBook overheats all the time), but they do tend to have a better grasp on what people want. I own a 2nd Gen iPod touch. I love it. It has everything I wanted in a player (honestly, I don't even listen to the radio).
I was one a Microsoft fan-boy... 10 years ago. Until I realized that Microsoft has no originality. Perhaps the Zune HD is a great device (assuming it's better than their last attempts), but the thing that pisses me off about it, is that once again, Microsoft has to copy what the other guy is doing to get a product to market. Would we even be having this argument if the Zune weren't made by a company with such a big name?
And now I get to sit back and watch MY reply get over-analyzed and hacked to pieces. Have fun!