for an extra $300 you get better video and a better HD. the price difference is small enough that a lot of people would just get both if there were 3 options instead of 2.
i just checked the Dell site and the prices are close enough to make me buy an iMac instead of a Dell if i was in the market for one now. even dell is using laptop CPU's on a lot of their models now.
They also make the mac pro look like a sick joke pay $1000 more to get a weaker video card, less ram and a smaller HD.
That doesn't mean much. People who are getting streaming aren't getting the same IQ.
B-R is growing pretty quickly.
And that doesn't mean anything at all. Picture quality is irrelevant to market share; if it weren't we could somehow figure that CDs are doing OK.
As has been mentioned, growth doesn't tell us much when the absolute numbers are so small. Blu-Ray could continue to make respectable units gains for the next several years and still not amount to much in the big picture.
That's the beauty of statistics. Without the proper context the numbers can be "tortured" to "say" anything.
Blu-ray sales are doing well but when compared to stout competition like On Demand, IPTV, iTunes, Vudu, Netflix and more it's an upstream swim for dominance.
Frankly I don't know why we're centering a thread about new iMacs around Blu-ray. This thread is a microcosm the media pie. There are a few "vocal" propononets of Blu-ray that take over every thread with complaints. The reality is that lack of Blu-ray hasn't hurt Mac sales one iota.
Apple delivered here with the iMacs. They proved many of us wrong with regard to Mobile vs Desktop chips and cooling. They have made another step forward by reducing hazardous materials by going all LED on the display and they've increased resolution on the high end iMac and removed the need for a low end Mac Pro (somewhat)
Yet we're talking about the lack of a format that hasn't shown much ability to take the market by storm despite it's main competitor closing up shop almost a year ago.
These iMacs are winners to me.
There are really only two legit complaints left about the iMac line, and people aren't happy about that, they want to complain.
One is, for that small few who don't understand how to use a glossy screen, the glass.
Two is the lack of internal B-R.
While some may also complain they're not getting a cheaper model, well, they're hopeless to begin with.
These afe vastly better models than what they're replacing, and the prices are slso pretty good for what people are getting.
I certainly didn't expect LED backlighting AND an IPS screen on the low price models.
The whole thing is a step up.
Now that they can take 16 GB with four slots, allowing 8 GB for less money as well, people are complaining about Apple's price for memory.
While I wasn't happy about the idea of a 16:9 screen, and still am not happy about the loss of resolution on the smaller model, the bigger screens will help for the 27", and the even higher rez on that model is an unexpected bonus, so my objections have subsided for the top, more pro models.
It's not like that pro photo and publishing would be done on the 21.5, so that's not really an issue.
Well, I guess the complaints are to be expected. There are always those who want to find the bad in everything.
You're wrong. It's meaningful. As meaningful at iTunes sales the first few years.
I suppose you also said that those big gains weren't important because the baseline was small?
The success of one format has no bearing on another, else one's success would guarantee success for all.
At any rate, you're using a digital download service, which has thrived right along with the general trend toward online digital media for everything, as an example of how a physical media format will surely prevail, which I don't think makes much sense.
Given everything we can see about every other medium I don't think betting against downloads or streaming is a great idea.
I'm just saying that betting against B-D isn't a good idea either.
All my friends have B-D players for their wide screens, but few download because the quality is so poor.
It will take more than a few years before that changes.
People need at least a 10 Mb/s connection before 1080p at no significant extra compression over a disk can be transmitted. That will be some time away.
And that doesn't mean anything at all. Picture quality is irrelevant to market share; if it weren't we could somehow figure that CDs are doing OK.
As has been mentioned, growth doesn't tell us much when the absolute numbers are so small. Blu-Ray could continue to make respectable units gains for the next several years and still not amount to much in the big picture.
You're wrong about that. People don't treat video the way they do audio. I know plenty of people who are happy about MP3 and AAC, but insist on screens bigger than 50" with B-R.
With the release of the 5800 series out this just screams we can't put a better card in the iMac without first offering a BTO for the 5800 in the Mac Pro.
The 5800s produce less heat and should be a BTO already in the Apple store for the Mac Pros.
"Oh! what a superior man," said Candide below his breath. "What a great genius is this Pococurante! Nothing can please him."
-Voltaire
Evidently, Pococurante was a Mac user. What a pack of whiners you people have become. You guys are furious because Apple doesn't deliver on AI's over-promising.
The success of one format has no bearing on another, else one's success would guarantee success for all.
At any rate, you're using a digital download service, which has thrived right along with the general trend toward online digital media for everything, as an example of how a physical media format will surely prevail, which I don't think makes much sense.
Of course it has bearing. One waxes, and one wanes.
Right now, B-R sales are making a tremendous increase, with no sigh that it will slow down appreciably for a while. As cheaper players continue to come out, that will only increase more. It's also been shown that most PS3 owners also watch movies on them, and there are a lot of them out there. Most movie prices have dropped to about the price of a DVD release, or just a bit higher, and store prices are often the same, or they're not carrying the DVD.
I think that B-R has at least five years of growth. That's a long time for the computer industry.
I'm just saying that betting against B-D isn't a good idea either.
All my friends have B-D players for their wide screens, but few download because the quality is so poor.
It will take more than a few years before that changes.
People need at least a 10 Mb/s connection before 1080p at no significant extra compression over a disk can be transmitted. That will be some time away.
And for a certain segment of the viewing population PQ wins out over convenience, for sure. For that matter, it wins out for me-- I don't much care for the quality of dl video. OTOH, I find myself doing a lot of casual movie viewing on Netflix Watch It Now-- if the catalogue were deeper, I would probably watch the majority of my movies that way, and reserve the big screen high quality treatment for specific films that I know to be visually compelling.
But I question how large this segment is, particularly when you consider the fact that of the movies released each year, only a handful are image intensive. Most are the kind of romantic comedies and dramas that don't require much in the way of PQ to work.
I guess the question is, how good is good enough? In the case of audio, we discovered that the answer was "not that good, actually." My suspicion is is that, even at the current semi-mediocre reproduction levels, video downloads are good enough.
I also suspect that this is a generational thing, with older, more affluent consumers opting for big screens and blu-ray, with younger people being perfectly content with downloads and laptops.
Just out of curiosity, for the people wondering why no HDMI on the new iMacs:
HDMI on the average desktop PC is HDMI out. Why would you put HDMI out on an all-in-one?
Um...because there are more HDMI displays than DP displays?
I wouldn't care at all if Apple did audio over DP.
My current setup is a mini connected to a 1080p 32" HDTV in my office.
I could easily see dual monitor setup of 27" iMac for work display paired with a larger 40"+ HDTV in the den. Also useful if your office has a conference area with a HDTV...which some of the management have. You can push your PP over to the HDTV if you want.
I don't believe iTMS HD movies are even 720p. If you sit closer to a 1080p display than it's diagonal measure, you can see all the pixels and easily tell the difference between DVD, iTMS HD, 720p and 1080p (with the latter pair still being the most difficult to distinguish). How many avenues do consumers have for getting 720p+ material for their Mac? Blu-ray would open up a nice option, even if Blu-ray was only 720p.
The reason for poor quality iTunes isn't because of the resolution (only 720p), but more so because the maximum data rate is 5 Mbps. Might as well stick with SD, which is good enough.
Who cares about Blu-ray support?!?! It'll be obsolete in a few years anyway. Apple isn't playing that game. They are pushing digital distribution and will soon offer true 1080p videos..
I agree on digital distribution being the way to go without question. However, I still think Apple would be foolhardy to not provide Blu-ray to its customers who want it if for no other reason to play the library they've already purchased.
For digital distribution to really take hold we need TWO things:
1 - A **FULL** collection of Movies and TV at the highest HD resolution released by the studio (1080p, 1080i or 720p)
2- Reasonable rentals plans:
Rental Plan #1 $4.99 gets you 3 maybe 4 unique/metered SHOWINGS where a SHOWING counts as a movie running for more than 75% of its total run time in a 4 hour window. So yes cheaters could watch 1/2 the movie and then wait 4 full hours and watch the other half and it wouldn't count as a viewing but lets face it most people would not go to such extremes to get an extra showing for 'free'. Otherwise these individual SHOWINGS do NOT expire. I could watch the rental in January, March, June and September if I actually felt the need or perhaps the unused showing WOULD expire on the 1 year anniversary of the rental.
Rental Plan #2 $4.99 gets you UNLIMITED SHOWINGS for a TWO/THREE DAY time span (think Friday 3PM till Sunday 3PM maybe 9? see below),
The 2 plans cover quite a number of circumstances.
Plan #1 the couple on the go... pay for the rental and can watch the movie UP TO 4 times and if something comes up and you have to put off watching it for a week or three it's okay the SHOWINGS will not expire or at least have a very generous expiration period 3/6/9 or 12 months.
Plan #2 the family plan... Kids will watch movies continuously (till their eyes fall out) 2 full days (52 hours would be best) of unlimited viewing would satisfy the little critters just fine. Rental begins Friday at 3pm and would expire on 3pm on Sunday (or 3pm Fri - 9pm Sun) or make it 48 hour rental period with a special weekend promo... Rent anytime on Friday and it expires 12:01am Monday morning
Two major points:
1 - Having a deep catalog of FULL QUALITY/RESOLUTION movies and TV is PARAMOUNT!
2 - Don't even THINK about telling me I can't view my rentals on any TVs in my home or even switch from one TV to another TV, in fact even to the point of showing the same movie rental on ALL the TVs simultaneously (or staggered) but each TV viewing the movie would go against the total number of SHOWINGS I'm afforded (for plan #1 pricing above - if you rent with plan #2 then go nuts 10 TV all going at once if you so desire)
But I somehow don't think digital distribution will even come out with anything close to these terms and thats too bad because unless I find digital rentals to my liking I won't use them and they will loose out the money.
Something the studio need to understand:
In todays world we have an unimaginable number of new and interesting ways we can entertain ourselves with and if the studios make it unappealing or obtrusive to purchase and watch their PRODUCT we will simply see less and less movies yet at the same time we will still get OUR entertainment from numerous other sources, the studios will simply not profit from it.
Could you imagine a world without movies or a much less powerful Hollywood?
When I was growing up in the 80s it didn't even enter my mind... Today, yea sure I can see the Movie Industry become much less powerful then they are now just like the printed news paper and the monthly magazines and even the Music Industry. All of the 'old world' heavy weights are going on a crash course diet and one by one they will all REINVENT themselves or DIE.
Comments
for an extra $300 you get better video and a better HD. the price difference is small enough that a lot of people would just get both if there were 3 options instead of 2.
i just checked the Dell site and the prices are close enough to make me buy an iMac instead of a Dell if i was in the market for one now. even dell is using laptop CPU's on a lot of their models now.
They also make the mac pro look like a sick joke pay $1000 more to get a weaker video card, less ram and a smaller HD.
Just like the unsuccessful iTunes music store, right?
And the truth is that you don't know where downloading movies is going either, it could be just as ephemeral as what you think B-R will be.
Given everything we can see about every other medium I don't think betting against downloads or streaming is a great idea.
That doesn't mean much. People who are getting streaming aren't getting the same IQ.
B-R is growing pretty quickly.
And that doesn't mean anything at all. Picture quality is irrelevant to market share; if it weren't we could somehow figure that CDs are doing OK.
As has been mentioned, growth doesn't tell us much when the absolute numbers are so small. Blu-Ray could continue to make respectable units gains for the next several years and still not amount to much in the big picture.
That's the beauty of statistics. Without the proper context the numbers can be "tortured" to "say" anything.
Blu-ray sales are doing well but when compared to stout competition like On Demand, IPTV, iTunes, Vudu, Netflix and more it's an upstream swim for dominance.
Frankly I don't know why we're centering a thread about new iMacs around Blu-ray. This thread is a microcosm the media pie. There are a few "vocal" propononets of Blu-ray that take over every thread with complaints. The reality is that lack of Blu-ray hasn't hurt Mac sales one iota.
Apple delivered here with the iMacs. They proved many of us wrong with regard to Mobile vs Desktop chips and cooling. They have made another step forward by reducing hazardous materials by going all LED on the display and they've increased resolution on the high end iMac and removed the need for a low end Mac Pro (somewhat)
Yet we're talking about the lack of a format that hasn't shown much ability to take the market by storm despite it's main competitor closing up shop almost a year ago.
These iMacs are winners to me.
There are really only two legit complaints left about the iMac line, and people aren't happy about that, they want to complain.
One is, for that small few who don't understand how to use a glossy screen, the glass.
Two is the lack of internal B-R.
While some may also complain they're not getting a cheaper model, well, they're hopeless to begin with.
These afe vastly better models than what they're replacing, and the prices are slso pretty good for what people are getting.
I certainly didn't expect LED backlighting AND an IPS screen on the low price models.
The whole thing is a step up.
Now that they can take 16 GB with four slots, allowing 8 GB for less money as well, people are complaining about Apple's price for memory.
While I wasn't happy about the idea of a 16:9 screen, and still am not happy about the loss of resolution on the smaller model, the bigger screens will help for the 27", and the even higher rez on that model is an unexpected bonus, so my objections have subsided for the top, more pro models.
It's not like that pro photo and publishing would be done on the 21.5, so that's not really an issue.
Well, I guess the complaints are to be expected. There are always those who want to find the bad in everything.
Now that mouse looks awesome...finally no more scroll ball to get dirty.
You talking about the MaxiMouse? (See the mouse thread)
Especially with CS4 ?
You're wrong. It's meaningful. As meaningful at iTunes sales the first few years.
I suppose you also said that those big gains weren't important because the baseline was small?
The success of one format has no bearing on another, else one's success would guarantee success for all.
At any rate, you're using a digital download service, which has thrived right along with the general trend toward online digital media for everything, as an example of how a physical media format will surely prevail, which I don't think makes much sense.
Given everything we can see about every other medium I don't think betting against downloads or streaming is a great idea.
I'm just saying that betting against B-D isn't a good idea either.
All my friends have B-D players for their wide screens, but few download because the quality is so poor.
It will take more than a few years before that changes.
People need at least a 10 Mb/s connection before 1080p at no significant extra compression over a disk can be transmitted. That will be some time away.
And no matte and still ugly black border- puke.
I now have to wait 6 more months.
you're not getting a matte screen on an imac, either buy a mac pro or get a second monitor for one of these imacs and stfu.
if you think it's ugly, find yourself a better looking windows pc in some other dimension and save your cash
And that doesn't mean anything at all. Picture quality is irrelevant to market share; if it weren't we could somehow figure that CDs are doing OK.
As has been mentioned, growth doesn't tell us much when the absolute numbers are so small. Blu-Ray could continue to make respectable units gains for the next several years and still not amount to much in the big picture.
You're wrong about that. People don't treat video the way they do audio. I know plenty of people who are happy about MP3 and AAC, but insist on screens bigger than 50" with B-R.
With the release of the 5800 series out this just screams we can't put a better card in the iMac without first offering a BTO for the 5800 in the Mac Pro.
The 5800s produce less heat and should be a BTO already in the Apple store for the Mac Pros.
you're not getting a matte screen on an imac, either buy a mac pro or get a second monitor for one of these imacs and stfu.
if you think it's ugly, find yourself a better looking windows pc in some other dimension and save your cash
Actually it's begiining to grow on me. Now that I see it has LED and an I7 I'll have to visit it in person. Hmmmmm.
"Oh! what a superior man," said Candide below his breath. "What a great genius is this Pococurante! Nothing can please him."
-Voltaire
Evidently, Pococurante was a Mac user. What a pack of whiners you people have become. You guys are furious because Apple doesn't deliver on AI's over-promising.
The glossy screen on my iPod touch drives me crazy. I can't imagine having to deal with 27" of gloss.
I been dealing with the 24" LED Cinema Display for 5 months and I got a window behind me and I'm good.
The success of one format has no bearing on another, else one's success would guarantee success for all.
At any rate, you're using a digital download service, which has thrived right along with the general trend toward online digital media for everything, as an example of how a physical media format will surely prevail, which I don't think makes much sense.
Of course it has bearing. One waxes, and one wanes.
Right now, B-R sales are making a tremendous increase, with no sigh that it will slow down appreciably for a while. As cheaper players continue to come out, that will only increase more. It's also been shown that most PS3 owners also watch movies on them, and there are a lot of them out there. Most movie prices have dropped to about the price of a DVD release, or just a bit higher, and store prices are often the same, or they're not carrying the DVD.
I think that B-R has at least five years of growth. That's a long time for the computer industry.
To predict its demise now is way premature.
I'm just saying that betting against B-D isn't a good idea either.
All my friends have B-D players for their wide screens, but few download because the quality is so poor.
It will take more than a few years before that changes.
People need at least a 10 Mb/s connection before 1080p at no significant extra compression over a disk can be transmitted. That will be some time away.
And for a certain segment of the viewing population PQ wins out over convenience, for sure. For that matter, it wins out for me-- I don't much care for the quality of dl video. OTOH, I find myself doing a lot of casual movie viewing on Netflix Watch It Now-- if the catalogue were deeper, I would probably watch the majority of my movies that way, and reserve the big screen high quality treatment for specific films that I know to be visually compelling.
But I question how large this segment is, particularly when you consider the fact that of the movies released each year, only a handful are image intensive. Most are the kind of romantic comedies and dramas that don't require much in the way of PQ to work.
I guess the question is, how good is good enough? In the case of audio, we discovered that the answer was "not that good, actually." My suspicion is is that, even at the current semi-mediocre reproduction levels, video downloads are good enough.
I also suspect that this is a generational thing, with older, more affluent consumers opting for big screens and blu-ray, with younger people being perfectly content with downloads and laptops.
Just out of curiosity, for the people wondering why no HDMI on the new iMacs:
HDMI on the average desktop PC is HDMI out. Why would you put HDMI out on an all-in-one?
Um...because there are more HDMI displays than DP displays?
I wouldn't care at all if Apple did audio over DP.
My current setup is a mini connected to a 1080p 32" HDTV in my office.
I could easily see dual monitor setup of 27" iMac for work display paired with a larger 40"+ HDTV in the den. Also useful if your office has a conference area with a HDTV...which some of the management have. You can push your PP over to the HDTV if you want.
Actually it's begiining to grow on me. Now that I see it has LED and an I7 I'll have to visit it in person. Hmmmmm.
Sounds like you need some time alone!
I don't believe iTMS HD movies are even 720p. If you sit closer to a 1080p display than it's diagonal measure, you can see all the pixels and easily tell the difference between DVD, iTMS HD, 720p and 1080p (with the latter pair still being the most difficult to distinguish). How many avenues do consumers have for getting 720p+ material for their Mac? Blu-ray would open up a nice option, even if Blu-ray was only 720p.
The reason for poor quality iTunes isn't because of the resolution (only 720p), but more so because the maximum data rate is 5 Mbps. Might as well stick with SD, which is good enough.
Who cares about Blu-ray support?!?! It'll be obsolete in a few years anyway. Apple isn't playing that game. They are pushing digital distribution and will soon offer true 1080p videos..
I agree on digital distribution being the way to go without question. However, I still think Apple would be foolhardy to not provide Blu-ray to its customers who want it if for no other reason to play the library they've already purchased.
For digital distribution to really take hold we need TWO things:
1 - A **FULL** collection of Movies and TV at the highest HD resolution released by the studio (1080p, 1080i or 720p)
2- Reasonable rentals plans:
Rental Plan #1 $4.99 gets you 3 maybe 4 unique/metered SHOWINGS where a SHOWING counts as a movie running for more than 75% of its total run time in a 4 hour window. So yes cheaters could watch 1/2 the movie and then wait 4 full hours and watch the other half and it wouldn't count as a viewing but lets face it most people would not go to such extremes to get an extra showing for 'free'. Otherwise these individual SHOWINGS do NOT expire. I could watch the rental in January, March, June and September if I actually felt the need or perhaps the unused showing WOULD expire on the 1 year anniversary of the rental.
Rental Plan #2 $4.99 gets you UNLIMITED SHOWINGS for a TWO/THREE DAY time span (think Friday 3PM till Sunday 3PM maybe 9? see below),
The 2 plans cover quite a number of circumstances.
Plan #1 the couple on the go... pay for the rental and can watch the movie UP TO 4 times and if something comes up and you have to put off watching it for a week or three it's okay the SHOWINGS will not expire or at least have a very generous expiration period 3/6/9 or 12 months.
Plan #2 the family plan... Kids will watch movies continuously (till their eyes fall out) 2 full days (52 hours would be best) of unlimited viewing would satisfy the little critters just fine. Rental begins Friday at 3pm and would expire on 3pm on Sunday (or 3pm Fri - 9pm Sun) or make it 48 hour rental period with a special weekend promo... Rent anytime on Friday and it expires 12:01am Monday morning
Two major points:
1 - Having a deep catalog of FULL QUALITY/RESOLUTION movies and TV is PARAMOUNT!
2 - Don't even THINK about telling me I can't view my rentals on any TVs in my home or even switch from one TV to another TV, in fact even to the point of showing the same movie rental on ALL the TVs simultaneously (or staggered) but each TV viewing the movie would go against the total number of SHOWINGS I'm afforded (for plan #1 pricing above - if you rent with plan #2 then go nuts 10 TV all going at once if you so desire)
But I somehow don't think digital distribution will even come out with anything close to these terms and thats too bad because unless I find digital rentals to my liking I won't use them and they will loose out the money.
Something the studio need to understand:
In todays world we have an unimaginable number of new and interesting ways we can entertain ourselves with and if the studios make it unappealing or obtrusive to purchase and watch their PRODUCT we will simply see less and less movies yet at the same time we will still get OUR entertainment from numerous other sources, the studios will simply not profit from it.
Could you imagine a world without movies or a much less powerful Hollywood?
When I was growing up in the 80s it didn't even enter my mind... Today, yea sure I can see the Movie Industry become much less powerful then they are now just like the printed news paper and the monthly magazines and even the Music Industry. All of the 'old world' heavy weights are going on a crash course diet and one by one they will all REINVENT themselves or DIE.