Nice to hear that MS is finally taking the effort to improve. This will motivate Apple to make better products. Consumers win!!! The adoption isn't as quick as you may think. But I'm pretty sure the corporate demand will pick up eventually. The company I work for has 1000+ computers working on XP. I know the IT department has used some people as testers for Windows 7 since the betas have been out. The upgrade will be coming eventually, but it takes time for IT to test and get all of our proprietary software working on it.
I want to be able to disable bitlocker through Group policy setting. I also want to copy a user profile to default, so that all new users get the same desktop settings. Microsoft disabled this feature with Win7. I am responsible for many machines that have multiple users login. If I cannot make/copy a default profile, then 7 will become another Vista in my organization (ignored).
I would like to see how Apple responds to Windows 7 and its shortcomings in the enterprise.
The context is that he said "No, I didn't report it to Apple". Why is immaterial to the validity of your statement.
Yes, and I explained why OS X is easier to compromise than Win7. Did you just ignore that part or simply not understand? Or perhaps both.
You like ti pick and choose and take things out of context to mean whatever you want.....
Charlie Miller reported the exploit to Apple in 2007....they ignored it. Then he used it to win Pwn 2 Own in 2008 & 2009 with the same exploit. He was ignored so from then on he was going to charge Corps for exploits. That is why he founded his own company so people would pay him for his hard work.
You like ti pick and choose and take things out of context to mean whatever you want.....
Given I quoted the ENTIRE response there's no way to take it "out of context" given that the entire context was replicated.
Quote:
Charlie Miller reported the exploit to Apple in 2007....they ignored it.
You keep asserting he did that. It's not in the article you quoted that it was the same exploit.
Here's another quote from him:
"Yes, I mostly notice the defensiveness of the Mac fan boys. I've had them say I cheat, that it?s only in the open source components (which it isn't this year), that I'm out to ruin Apple, etc. Some people can't face the reality when it?s staring them in the face. I probably haven't made a lot of friends with my new book "The Mac Hackers Handbook" co-authored with Dino Dai Zovi, the guy who won Pwn2Own three years ago."
Show me the link and THEN you have context. Until then its just blather.
Again, the major difference between Win7 and OSX which makes Win7 more secure is non-executable stack and full ALSR (Leopard doesn't randomize dyld which is the exploit). Miller himself says OSX is safer.
In any case, Win7 and IE8 fell as well in day 1 so neither platform is particularly secure out of the box and ALSR is no panacea. OSX would be a little more secure with better ALSR but probably not a whole lot safer.
I can lock down a NT, XP, OSX or Win7 box to a very high EAL level. It' not very useful as anything but a firewall at that point though because I strip out all the exploitable apps.
You also have to realize that his exploit broke into the user's files. He didn't gain root...which would require another vulnerability and exploit for privilege escalation. Which can be done in OSX but is probably a lot easier to get the user to enter the admin password instead.
So what have we learned from Miller and pwn 2 own?
Given Apple's achievements over the last decade and how they've changd the face of consumer tech, Apple "fanboism" is more than forgivable. Can you really blame Apple fans for their enthusiasm? It's completely natural to enjoy and get excited about Apple tech. What's not to like??
There is big difference between being enthusiastic for brand you support, and openly hating other brands.
I like my PC and don't care much for Apple's business model, but don't hate them for that. If some people want to give big money to be big-brothered by Steve Jobs - good for them.
Quote:
Macs
Good looks, average hardware, too many problems for the price.
Quote:
OS X
Seems to be nice product but a bit limited with small market share.
Quote:
iPods
Haven't play with one, can't say.
Quote:
iPhone.
Great device, average phone. Could be much more without Apple's Big-Brothering. I like mine, but can see myself moving to different platform in a year or two.
Quote:
And all the software to match.
And all the software not existing.
Quote:
All best in class.
What class is that..? Voroshilov 2009?
Quote:
And after 8 years of half-assing its core business MS finally manages to push out Win 7, while simultaneously destroying its Mobile presence (Apple did that for them, though) and making another half-hearted attempt at an MP3 player, a market that Apple chewed up and spat out about 2 years ago.
There you go, that is exactly what other guys are talking about. Whatever that is, sounds like pure pathological hatred.
Quote:
Why the hell should I have anything good to say about MS, aside from the fact that their existence makes Apple look that much better? If by some strange twist of fate we'd all be on Linux and Apple machines a few years from now, who would really miss them? What have they really contributed to the consumer sector aside from a loss-leading gaming console and a decent version of Windows after 8 years of garbage? More Office bloatware? An array of confusing Live services? Songsmith?
Why do you feel need to say anything about MS, not being their customer..? That being said, XP was not a bad product for it's time. Served well and still does. Vista's major problem was in OEMs and driver support, largely out of MS control. That is what you get when you control 90+% of market - it is much harder to keep Roman empire under control, than Linhenstein.
Quote:
I see nothing redeeming about MS' products. At all.
Exactly. Why do you keep dealing with them?
Quote:
MS is the ugly friend the cheerleader hangs out with. That's it.
And you are, like, a bit jealous not being in his shoes..?
I am not surprised at all about Win 7's success. The move from XP to Vista was nonexistent, because people were able to keep running XP. But that will not longer be true, Microsoft is dropping XP for real now. So, this is a forced upgrade for many (especially businesses next year).
There is big difference between being enthusiastic for brand you support, and openly hating other brands.
I like my PC and don't care much for Apple's business model, but don't hate them for that. If some people want to give big money to be big-brothered by Steve Jobs - good for them.
Riiight. You're not a hater at all and that's a well balanced opinion.
Quote:
There you go, that is exactly what other guys are talking about. Whatever that is, sounds like pure pathological hatred.
And whining that Apple big brothers everyone isn't that same "hatred"?
Come on, Vista development was a mess and they had to dump it and start over with the Server 2K3 codebase. Which was the right move but they blew 4 years worth of development. MS was not executing very well for that period any more than Intel was vis a vis AMD with the P4.
Now both Intel and MS are executing well. Win7 is about as good as Core is.
Quote:
Vista's major problem was in OEMs and driver support, largely out of MS control.
Vista's major problem was that it was late, oversold and not polished when it was released. In the end it was MS's equivalent of the P4 debacle. On the plus side, despite what folks around here think, MS is starting to execute much better.
Comments
Nice to hear that MS is finally taking the effort to improve. This will motivate Apple to make better products. Consumers win!!! The adoption isn't as quick as you may think. But I'm pretty sure the corporate demand will pick up eventually. The company I work for has 1000+ computers working on XP. I know the IT department has used some people as testers for Windows 7 since the betas have been out. The upgrade will be coming eventually, but it takes time for IT to test and get all of our proprietary software working on it.
I want to be able to disable bitlocker through Group policy setting. I also want to copy a user profile to default, so that all new users get the same desktop settings. Microsoft disabled this feature with Win7. I am responsible for many machines that have multiple users login. If I cannot make/copy a default profile, then 7 will become another Vista in my organization (ignored).
I would like to see how Apple responds to Windows 7 and its shortcomings in the enterprise.
You need to put it context.
The context is that he said "No, I didn't report it to Apple". Why is immaterial to the validity of your statement.
Did you also read the part about OS X being easier to compromise than Windows? Did you just ignore that part?
Yes, and I explained why OS X is easier to compromise than Win7. Did you just ignore that part or simply not understand? Or perhaps both.
The context is that he said "No, I didn't report it to Apple". Why is immaterial to the validity of your statement.
Yes, and I explained why OS X is easier to compromise than Win7. Did you just ignore that part or simply not understand? Or perhaps both.
You like ti pick and choose and take things out of context to mean whatever you want.....
Charlie Miller reported the exploit to Apple in 2007....they ignored it. Then he used it to win Pwn 2 Own in 2008 & 2009 with the same exploit. He was ignored so from then on he was going to charge Corps for exploits. That is why he founded his own company so people would pay him for his hard work.
You like ti pick and choose and take things out of context to mean whatever you want.....
Given I quoted the ENTIRE response there's no way to take it "out of context" given that the entire context was replicated.
Charlie Miller reported the exploit to Apple in 2007....they ignored it.
You keep asserting he did that. It's not in the article you quoted that it was the same exploit.
Here's another quote from him:
"Yes, I mostly notice the defensiveness of the Mac fan boys. I've had them say I cheat, that it?s only in the open source components (which it isn't this year), that I'm out to ruin Apple, etc. Some people can't face the reality when it?s staring them in the face. I probably haven't made a lot of friends with my new book "The Mac Hackers Handbook" co-authored with Dino Dai Zovi, the guy who won Pwn2Own three years ago."
Show me the link and THEN you have context. Until then its just blather.
Again, the major difference between Win7 and OSX which makes Win7 more secure is non-executable stack and full ALSR (Leopard doesn't randomize dyld which is the exploit). Miller himself says OSX is safer.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/busi...ner_charl.html
In any case, Win7 and IE8 fell as well in day 1 so neither platform is particularly secure out of the box and ALSR is no panacea. OSX would be a little more secure with better ALSR but probably not a whole lot safer.
I can lock down a NT, XP, OSX or Win7 box to a very high EAL level. It' not very useful as anything but a firewall at that point though because I strip out all the exploitable apps.
You also have to realize that his exploit broke into the user's files. He didn't gain root...which would require another vulnerability and exploit for privilege escalation. Which can be done in OSX but is probably a lot easier to get the user to enter the admin password instead.
So what have we learned from Miller and pwn 2 own?
Use Chrome and not Safari or IE8.
Given Apple's achievements over the last decade and how they've changd the face of consumer tech, Apple "fanboism" is more than forgivable. Can you really blame Apple fans for their enthusiasm? It's completely natural to enjoy and get excited about Apple tech. What's not to like??
There is big difference between being enthusiastic for brand you support, and openly hating other brands.
I like my PC and don't care much for Apple's business model, but don't hate them for that. If some people want to give big money to be big-brothered by Steve Jobs - good for them.
Macs
Good looks, average hardware, too many problems for the price.
OS X
Seems to be nice product but a bit limited with small market share.
iPods
Haven't play with one, can't say.
iPhone.
Great device, average phone. Could be much more without Apple's Big-Brothering. I like mine, but can see myself moving to different platform in a year or two.
And all the software to match.
And all the software not existing.
All best in class.
What class is that..? Voroshilov 2009?
And after 8 years of half-assing its core business MS finally manages to push out Win 7, while simultaneously destroying its Mobile presence (Apple did that for them, though) and making another half-hearted attempt at an MP3 player, a market that Apple chewed up and spat out about 2 years ago.
There you go, that is exactly what other guys are talking about. Whatever that is, sounds like pure pathological hatred.
Why the hell should I have anything good to say about MS, aside from the fact that their existence makes Apple look that much better? If by some strange twist of fate we'd all be on Linux and Apple machines a few years from now, who would really miss them? What have they really contributed to the consumer sector aside from a loss-leading gaming console and a decent version of Windows after 8 years of garbage? More Office bloatware? An array of confusing Live services? Songsmith?
Why do you feel need to say anything about MS, not being their customer..? That being said, XP was not a bad product for it's time. Served well and still does. Vista's major problem was in OEMs and driver support, largely out of MS control. That is what you get when you control 90+% of market - it is much harder to keep Roman empire under control, than Linhenstein.
I see nothing redeeming about MS' products. At all.
Exactly. Why do you keep dealing with them?
MS is the ugly friend the cheerleader hangs out with. That's it.
And you are, like, a bit jealous not being in his shoes..?
There is big difference between being enthusiastic for brand you support, and openly hating other brands.
I like my PC and don't care much for Apple's business model, but don't hate them for that. If some people want to give big money to be big-brothered by Steve Jobs - good for them.
Riiight. You're not a hater at all and that's a well balanced opinion.
There you go, that is exactly what other guys are talking about. Whatever that is, sounds like pure pathological hatred.
And whining that Apple big brothers everyone isn't that same "hatred"?
Come on, Vista development was a mess and they had to dump it and start over with the Server 2K3 codebase. Which was the right move but they blew 4 years worth of development. MS was not executing very well for that period any more than Intel was vis a vis AMD with the P4.
Now both Intel and MS are executing well. Win7 is about as good as Core is.
Vista's major problem was in OEMs and driver support, largely out of MS control.
Vista's major problem was that it was late, oversold and not polished when it was released. In the end it was MS's equivalent of the P4 debacle. On the plus side, despite what folks around here think, MS is starting to execute much better.