Is it possible this Carrmack guy is just full of shit and making his statement up? I'm pretty sure apple is going to embrace anything that sells their product more... and coincidentally.. I don't really think they are struggling in the smart phone market.
I could see a Doom classic or even a version of Quake on the iPhone but I have no clue how they are going to make an iPhone version of Rage that even remotely looks like Rage.
Why not? Looks like it needs a controller accessory. They may not exist yet but the APIs for the 30-pin connector is there and there are even some prototypes on the net. I don?t play such games so I don?t pay too much attention to that market, but it seems to me if a child in this overly connected age of social media had a choice between a DS which is mainly for games or an iPod Touch, the likely answer is the Touch. Surely some cons with game play but perhaps enough pros to offset it.
I have made a living using Macs for over 20 years. I'm not sure you can say that about impulse, luxury buys.
Elegant, easy to use. Stable. Nicely designed. Enjoyable to work on. The interface, the hardware design and the structure of how they do what they do, have lead the industry since the Mac was introduced. You don't have to want to use one, you don't HAVE to use one, it's not forced on you as Windows is if you are unlucky enough to be in the belly of a corporate beast that is run by IT guys who know only Windows.
Buy to write it off using the thought process (or lack of) that you use is silly.
Well you and I fall both in the 20% of non-luxury/impulsive buyers then.
I have bought Mac's over the years because of their value and stability.
But the "new Apple" is clearly targeted at high foot traffic luxury locations with shiny, high lust factor devices.
Just look at their stores, glass steps? $30 for a simple charger that I can get online for $10?
And Apple wonders why the iPhone sells more games than anything else?
Perhaps back in the day of desktop publishing Apple Computer was more business oriented and saved companies money with their products, but now Apple Inc. is just chasing the luxury consumer market.
What I am surprised is that they are secretly upset the iPhone became just a gaming device. Like they didn't see it coming or something?
Perhaps if they did they would have owned the 3D gaming console market by now.
There is no data anywhere to suggest the primary reason of iPhone purchases are for the gaming capabilities.
Second, Apple brought game developers in to build apps for the iPhone since BEFORE it was debuted on stage. Those same developers DEMOED their games, and continue to do so at every iPHone event.
Give us the full transcript of the Apple executive quote, and I dont think there will be any hint of "embarrassment."
I believe Carmack. It's quite easy to see that gaming ranks very low on the Apple list of priorities.
I had to buy and Xbox and recently a Windows 7 based pc in order to game even though I love the mac OS for everything else.
The most common reason I have heard from friends and acquaintances why they haven't purchased a mac is that you can't game well on one.
Just a quick response to this.. While its true that most gamers get a PC, I don't believe its for Mac's lack of ability to game (try call of duty 4 on an iMac and you'll see what I mean) It's because gaming companies generally don't make Mac versions of their games. The Mac computer market is only a fraction of the PC market, and a large majority of mac owners use the computers specifically for video editing, and recording music..
Why is it surprising the iPhone's most popular selling apps are games?
It's no surprise to me. If Apple wanted to make a business iPhone they could, at the sacrifice of their consumer one.
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.
Hard to mix the two impressions.
You imply that gaming is at one end and business is at the other. I don't agree. When he talks about "highest levels" of Apple management, that can only mean one thing: Steve Jobs
And I am sure this is exactly the case. Jobs loves design, art, music, and simple but powerful software and hardware. The Mac was never a gaming machine, nor was the Apple II for that matter. It's not in his DNA.
Of course he's not going to throw away a major revenue stream, but it certainly was not his original vision. Too many games have crappy, cheesy, corny visuals, loud colors and awful fonts. Jobs probably can't stand games like that.
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.
This exactly the opposite of Job's worldview. To him, business is about having fun. You can have fun in your job. In fact, he has said you should have fun in your job.
Apple hasn't stayed (somewhat) away from the enterprise market because they don't care about it. The problem has been that that market is structured in such a way that user experience is almost always ignored, because the buyer is almost never the user, so enterprise UI is usually horrid. This is starting to change.
Why not? Looks like it needs a controller accessory. They may not exist yet but the APIs for the 30-pin connector is there and there are even some prototypes on the net. I don?t play such games so I don?t pay too much attention to that market, but it seems to me if a child in this overly connected age of social media had a choice between a DS which is mainly for games or an iPod Touch, the likely answer is the Touch. Surely some cons with game play but perhaps enough pros to offset it.
I was thinking more along the lines of how graphic intense the game would be compared to Doom Classic and Wolfenstein for the iPhone.
Doom classic is pretty much a 16 year old game which in gaming is a lifetime.
I think the PSP go is all the proof I need the Apple is Waste deep in the gaming market.. and is getting everyone else's attention.
The PSP Go is light years ahead of anything on the iphone. Take a look at Assassin's Creed for the GO and it blows away anything the iPhone could even remotely handle.
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.
Hard to mix the two impressions.
Wow, I wouldn't want to work for you, or even with you. Maybe you're in the wrong business. If it's not fun, what's the point? But, then, I don't subscribe to the "life is miserable, then you die" philosophy.
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The Mac platform is weak on games not because of Apple, but because of circumstances (namely minority market share) beyond their control. Game developers don't develop heavily for the Mac platform because it's not cost effective for them. In contrast, game developers do develop heavily for the iPod Touch platform because it is cost-effective for them.
I can only speculate here, but I believe that if Steve Jobs could snap his fingers and cause the game developers and their customers to immediately embrace his the Mac, he'd do it in a heartbeat. I suppose gaming has never been the top priority of Apple, but that doesn't make them anti-game. I think Apple desires platform supremacy across most if not all users, but that's easier said than done.
Except that the gaming element is one of the key driving forces of iPhone, and is heavily promoted (publicly) by Apple.
The iPhone does *everything.* As it should. and it does a damn good job. No reason for Apple to have a problem with this. Its perfectly in line with the consumer market strategy for the iPhone.
Unless of course, the whole gaming scenario is what might be holding the iPhone back from significant enterprise adoption.
The rest of the time, the gaming is a plusl and has paid off handsomely.
I'm not sure how much truth there is to Carmack's ideas.
You know it is possible some people, even some people at Apple might think that gaming is holding back [insert your favorite platform here] from business adoption. But I don't think that is the case for Apple or any company, and here's why:
Taking a look at Microsoft, we see that (unfortunately) Windows has become the largest, most powerful gaming platform in the industry, but that certainly has not deterred Windows from being adopted by businesses.
No, I think, in Apple's case for sure, it's the same ongoing problem the Mac has suffered... You have IT people that completely refuse to try anything made by Apple (or other companies/products too), with no rational reasoning. You also have Apple, while good at lots of things, does not take the business market seriously. And you also have the business practices MS employs where they schmooze the CEOs of corporations and convince them to buy any MS flavor of crap of the month (like Sharepoint).
John Carmack yaps a lot. He also tends to get more vocal when he doesn't get his way on something. Take anything he says with a grain of salt.
kotatsu, I don't agree with your statement about Jobs being driven by a desire for profit - I believe he is a control-freak and is driven by the desire to build devices that look and operate a certain way, and anything else is unacceptable - "I will build it my way, and if you don't like it, tough beans."
I think Apple execs are perfectly happy with the popularity of gaming on iPhone/Touch. At the same time I do think they would like to see more business purpose adoption with the platform. I think the slow uptake in businesses disappoints them, but I don't think they're disappointed by the games.
I would still take your line of comment a bit further. I can't see anything in Jobs that he has done, just so it would make him rich. Look at what the guy has said over the last 25 years; look at what the guy has done over the last 25 years. None of it has any earmarks of being driven by profit. Profit is the byproduct.
Do what you do, the absolutely best you possibly can do it, and the profits will come.
That's the only ways these guys could do what they do. Apple's product doesn't work on any other level.
Oh, and by the way; this is also the definition of a "niche".
John Carmack, creator of the classic PC game Doom, described working with Apple as a "rollercoaster ride," and suggested that company executives are not happy about the popularity of gaming on the iPhone and iPod touch.
Ouch!!
Isn't the iPod Touch Apple's gaming device according to the master SJ? Apple's customers have told them that. And he concurs and only granted the Touch a speed bump for that very reason? No camera- it's a gaming device!
I'm still waiting for all the gaming accessories as well- where are they?
You know it is possible some people, even some people at Apple might think that gaming is holding back [insert your favorite platform here] from business adoption. But I don't think that is the case for Apple or any company, and here's why:
Taking a look at Microsoft, we see that (unfortunately) Windows has become the largest, most powerful gaming platform in the industry, but that certainly has not deterred Windows from being adopted by businesses.
No, I think, in Apple's case for sure, it's the same ongoing problem the Mac has suffered... You have IT people that completely refuse to try anything made by Apple (or other companies/products too), with no rational reasoning. You also have Apple, while good at lots of things, does not take the business market seriously. And you also have the business practices MS employs where they schmooze the CEOs of corporations and convince them to buy any MS flavor of crap of the month (like Sharepoint).
And that's the way methinks it goes.
Microsoft became the largest and most powerful in business and then years later became the most powerful in gaming. So the business market had already been secured.
Also if Apple really wanted to make a real attempt to get into business they could start by trying to make a decent office suite instead of iworks. While Pages and keynote are good numbers is beyond sad and to date nothing comes close to competing with Excel.
Not mention most large companies still like desktop systems not AIO or really overpriced notebooks.
Comments
Show me some evidence from Apple itself that it's opposed to gaming.
The Macintosh platform.
/thread
I could see a Doom classic or even a version of Quake on the iPhone but I have no clue how they are going to make an iPhone version of Rage that even remotely looks like Rage.
http://www.rage-game.com/home.action
Why not? Looks like it needs a controller accessory. They may not exist yet but the APIs for the 30-pin connector is there and there are even some prototypes on the net. I don?t play such games so I don?t pay too much attention to that market, but it seems to me if a child in this overly connected age of social media had a choice between a DS which is mainly for games or an iPod Touch, the likely answer is the Touch. Surely some cons with game play but perhaps enough pros to offset it.
Luxury, impulse buy? Like a large screen TV?
I have made a living using Macs for over 20 years. I'm not sure you can say that about impulse, luxury buys.
Elegant, easy to use. Stable. Nicely designed. Enjoyable to work on. The interface, the hardware design and the structure of how they do what they do, have lead the industry since the Mac was introduced. You don't have to want to use one, you don't HAVE to use one, it's not forced on you as Windows is if you are unlucky enough to be in the belly of a corporate beast that is run by IT guys who know only Windows.
Buy to write it off using the thought process (or lack of) that you use is silly.
Well you and I fall both in the 20% of non-luxury/impulsive buyers then.
I have bought Mac's over the years because of their value and stability.
But the "new Apple" is clearly targeted at high foot traffic luxury locations with shiny, high lust factor devices.
Just look at their stores, glass steps? $30 for a simple charger that I can get online for $10?
And Apple wonders why the iPhone sells more games than anything else?
Perhaps back in the day of desktop publishing Apple Computer was more business oriented and saved companies money with their products, but now Apple Inc. is just chasing the luxury consumer market.
What I am surprised is that they are secretly upset the iPhone became just a gaming device. Like they didn't see it coming or something?
Perhaps if they did they would have owned the 3D gaming console market by now.
Second, Apple brought game developers in to build apps for the iPhone since BEFORE it was debuted on stage. Those same developers DEMOED their games, and continue to do so at every iPHone event.
Give us the full transcript of the Apple executive quote, and I dont think there will be any hint of "embarrassment."
80% of luxury sales are impulsive. This is a proven statistic.
OH SNIP!...
80% of statistics are made up on the spot! it's proven!
I believe Carmack. It's quite easy to see that gaming ranks very low on the Apple list of priorities.
I had to buy and Xbox and recently a Windows 7 based pc in order to game even though I love the mac OS for everything else.
The most common reason I have heard from friends and acquaintances why they haven't purchased a mac is that you can't game well on one.
Just a quick response to this.. While its true that most gamers get a PC, I don't believe its for Mac's lack of ability to game (try call of duty 4 on an iMac and you'll see what I mean) It's because gaming companies generally don't make Mac versions of their games. The Mac computer market is only a fraction of the PC market, and a large majority of mac owners use the computers specifically for video editing, and recording music..
Why is it surprising the iPhone's most popular selling apps are games?
It's no surprise to me. If Apple wanted to make a business iPhone they could, at the sacrifice of their consumer one.
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.
Hard to mix the two impressions.
You imply that gaming is at one end and business is at the other. I don't agree. When he talks about "highest levels" of Apple management, that can only mean one thing: Steve Jobs
And I am sure this is exactly the case. Jobs loves design, art, music, and simple but powerful software and hardware. The Mac was never a gaming machine, nor was the Apple II for that matter. It's not in his DNA.
Of course he's not going to throw away a major revenue stream, but it certainly was not his original vision. Too many games have crappy, cheesy, corny visuals, loud colors and awful fonts. Jobs probably can't stand games like that.
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.
This exactly the opposite of Job's worldview. To him, business is about having fun. You can have fun in your job. In fact, he has said you should have fun in your job.
Apple hasn't stayed (somewhat) away from the enterprise market because they don't care about it. The problem has been that that market is structured in such a way that user experience is almost always ignored, because the buyer is almost never the user, so enterprise UI is usually horrid. This is starting to change.
Why not? Looks like it needs a controller accessory. They may not exist yet but the APIs for the 30-pin connector is there and there are even some prototypes on the net. I don?t play such games so I don?t pay too much attention to that market, but it seems to me if a child in this overly connected age of social media had a choice between a DS which is mainly for games or an iPod Touch, the likely answer is the Touch. Surely some cons with game play but perhaps enough pros to offset it.
I was thinking more along the lines of how graphic intense the game would be compared to Doom Classic and Wolfenstein for the iPhone.
Doom classic is pretty much a 16 year old game which in gaming is a lifetime.
I think the PSP go is all the proof I need the Apple is Waste deep in the gaming market.. and is getting everyone else's attention.
The PSP Go is light years ahead of anything on the iphone. Take a look at Assassin's Creed for the GO and it blows away anything the iPhone could even remotely handle.
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.
Hard to mix the two impressions.
Wow, I wouldn't want to work for you, or even with you. Maybe you're in the wrong business. If it's not fun, what's the point? But, then, I don't subscribe to the "life is miserable, then you die" philosophy.
The Macintosh platform.
/thread
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The Mac platform is weak on games not because of Apple, but because of circumstances (namely minority market share) beyond their control. Game developers don't develop heavily for the Mac platform because it's not cost effective for them. In contrast, game developers do develop heavily for the iPod Touch platform because it is cost-effective for them.
I can only speculate here, but I believe that if Steve Jobs could snap his fingers and cause the game developers and their customers to immediately embrace his the Mac, he'd do it in a heartbeat. I suppose gaming has never been the top priority of Apple, but that doesn't make them anti-game. I think Apple desires platform supremacy across most if not all users, but that's easier said than done.
Except that the gaming element is one of the key driving forces of iPhone, and is heavily promoted (publicly) by Apple.
The iPhone does *everything.* As it should. and it does a damn good job. No reason for Apple to have a problem with this. Its perfectly in line with the consumer market strategy for the iPhone.
Unless of course, the whole gaming scenario is what might be holding the iPhone back from significant enterprise adoption.
The rest of the time, the gaming is a plusl and has paid off handsomely.
I'm not sure how much truth there is to Carmack's ideas.
You know it is possible some people, even some people at Apple might think that gaming is holding back [insert your favorite platform here] from business adoption. But I don't think that is the case for Apple or any company, and here's why:
Taking a look at Microsoft, we see that (unfortunately) Windows has become the largest, most powerful gaming platform in the industry, but that certainly has not deterred Windows from being adopted by businesses.
No, I think, in Apple's case for sure, it's the same ongoing problem the Mac has suffered... You have IT people that completely refuse to try anything made by Apple (or other companies/products too), with no rational reasoning. You also have Apple, while good at lots of things, does not take the business market seriously. And you also have the business practices MS employs where they schmooze the CEOs of corporations and convince them to buy any MS flavor of crap of the month (like Sharepoint).
And that's the way methinks it goes.
John Carmack yaps a lot. He also tends to get more vocal when he doesn't get his way on something. Take anything he says with a grain of salt.
kotatsu, I don't agree with your statement about Jobs being driven by a desire for profit - I believe he is a control-freak and is driven by the desire to build devices that look and operate a certain way, and anything else is unacceptable - "I will build it my way, and if you don't like it, tough beans."
I think Apple execs are perfectly happy with the popularity of gaming on iPhone/Touch. At the same time I do think they would like to see more business purpose adoption with the platform. I think the slow uptake in businesses disappoints them, but I don't think they're disappointed by the games.
I would still take your line of comment a bit further. I can't see anything in Jobs that he has done, just so it would make him rich. Look at what the guy has said over the last 25 years; look at what the guy has done over the last 25 years. None of it has any earmarks of being driven by profit. Profit is the byproduct.
Do what you do, the absolutely best you possibly can do it, and the profits will come.
That's the only ways these guys could do what they do. Apple's product doesn't work on any other level.
Oh, and by the way; this is also the definition of a "niche".
and a large majority of mac owners use the computers specifically for video editing, and recording music..
Really?
The company I work for has about 30 Macs. Two of them are exclusively for graphics/video.
Most of my family and friends have Apple computers. Only one of them uses it for video editing, and that's only part time.
When I travel, I see WAY more Apple laptops than anything else. Lot's of video watching, but no editing.
The large majority of Mac owners use the computers for all the same stuff you'd use a Windows machine for.
John Carmack, creator of the classic PC game Doom, described working with Apple as a "rollercoaster ride," and suggested that company executives are not happy about the popularity of gaming on the iPhone and iPod touch.
Ouch!!
Isn't the iPod Touch Apple's gaming device according to the master SJ? Apple's customers have told them that. And he concurs and only granted the Touch a speed bump for that very reason? No camera- it's a gaming device!
I'm still waiting for all the gaming accessories as well- where are they?
You know it is possible some people, even some people at Apple might think that gaming is holding back [insert your favorite platform here] from business adoption. But I don't think that is the case for Apple or any company, and here's why:
Taking a look at Microsoft, we see that (unfortunately) Windows has become the largest, most powerful gaming platform in the industry, but that certainly has not deterred Windows from being adopted by businesses.
No, I think, in Apple's case for sure, it's the same ongoing problem the Mac has suffered... You have IT people that completely refuse to try anything made by Apple (or other companies/products too), with no rational reasoning. You also have Apple, while good at lots of things, does not take the business market seriously. And you also have the business practices MS employs where they schmooze the CEOs of corporations and convince them to buy any MS flavor of crap of the month (like Sharepoint).
And that's the way methinks it goes.
Microsoft became the largest and most powerful in business and then years later became the most powerful in gaming. So the business market had already been secured.
Also if Apple really wanted to make a real attempt to get into business they could start by trying to make a decent office suite instead of iworks. While Pages and keynote are good numbers is beyond sad and to date nothing comes close to competing with Excel.
Not mention most large companies still like desktop systems not AIO or really overpriced notebooks.
If Apple were embarrassed about iPhone gaming, why did they run ads showing how well the iPod Touch works with games? It doesn't make sense.
Well what else were they gonna advertise it for? It didn't get a camera!