Apple's iPad deal gives Hachette pricing leverage against Amazon

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  • Reply 61 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post


    that's why i still prefer DVD's and blu-ray to itunes and the other online stores. and other DRM'd media. i played with FictionWise last year and it supported a variety of devices. you download it on your PC. not sure about a Mac version. connect any supported device by USB, register it and transfer books via USB. it supported a lot of readers from different manufacturers and a lot of cellphones. and the NY Public LIbrary supported it so i was able to borrow books with it.



    this is why i bought the ipod years ago and not playsforsure. i trusted itunes to be around longer. i've never bought anything except apps though. don't want to buy a movie and be locked in to watching it on an idevice



    Buying a movie, TV show, Music Video (or any video) from the iTunes store does not lock you in to any iDevice.



    Rather, if you buy iTunes DRM music or video you are limited to 5 authorized computers and (some number?) of iDevices synched to them.



    I can access (or store and play) this content concurrently on (some number?) of AppleTVs, 5 computers, and (some number?) of iDevices.



    I don't, yet, understand how the iPad fits into this equation!



    *
  • Reply 62 of 116
    newbeenewbee Posts: 2,055member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    The problem with books is people want to rent first then buy if they judge the content worth retaining.



    There are many books out there that have nice covers, but the content is just about worthless.





    I imagine there will be a preview available, first 3 chapters maybe, enough to give you an indication as to whether you want or not. For me, I'm anxious to see if publishers and/or authors take advantage of all media capabilities of iPad ... sound, video,web etc. .... if they get creative enough storytelling could get real interesting.
  • Reply 63 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post


    Is Apple "forcing" prices up? Or is it that Apple, in competition with Amazon as a driver of digital sales (theoretically for now), just gives the publishers some leverage?



    This is how I imagine things played out:

    Up to now, if they wanted to sell e-books, publishers had to play by Amazon's rules because of their dominance in the market. If Apple came in and said, "we want you to provide e-books for our new ecosystem for the same price as Amazon," publishers might have responded "Meh. Talk to us when we see how iPad sales are going..." Apple needed to be abe able to announce publishers were enthusiastically on board *before* the iPad came out, so they had to offer something to get the publishers interested. Remember, Apple's model is to make money on hardware sales; their end goal is to sell iPads, not make a killing on media sales commissions.



    I suppose, you could fault Apple for the price rise, but I think saying that "Apple is forcing the prices up," implies that Apple *wants* the price higher, which I doubt.



    ----

    Still seems to me the consumer will be the decider. I have held off getting a Kindle waiting for the price to drop under $200. The $9.99 for a book is attractive. If everyone goes to $15 I will never buy a Kindle and if I do buy an iPad I will not use it to buy books unless they are $9.99. The tone has been set and I predict in the long run Amazon will win.
  • Reply 64 of 116
    cmf2cmf2 Posts: 1,427member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nkhm View Post


    Why should an eBook 'paperback' be only 50% of the cost of a printed copy? Printing, warehousing and distribution accounts for nowhere near 50% of the cost of a book.



    I think many people believe that printing a book is expensive on a run of 10k plus - it's really not, normally less than £1 per book for a 200 page paperback. So maybe £2 - £5 less than the RRP for a paperback would be nice (to also account for reduction in fees for distribution and warehousing), but half price is too much, particularly when sales of eBooks will cost publishers lost revenue on printed material.



    People are entitled to make money for their work, whether creating, editing, proofing or marketing.



    I can't understand, will never understand, this mentality that music, literature, movies bought on line are somehow worthless and not worth any where near as much as walking to the shop and buying a CD, DVD, Blu-Ray or a book. It's a selfish mentality. You are paying for the content, not the medium in which it is delivered.



    People seem to want everything for nothing, but expect to be paid well for their own work.



    Very selfish indeed.



    Variable price, with the publisher, not the distributor in charge, is a good thing. It enables publishers to offer special prices and to have variable pricing for older material - which would not be the case under a fixed priced system.



    Apple worked hard on this model with iTunes, fighting tooth and nail against music publishers. Apple don't receive enough credit for fighting to remove DRM and introducing variable pricing to the iTunes store.



    Always criticising gets boring eventually.



    I choose 50% of the paperback price simply because that is what they are doing with hardcovers. Looking at Amazons prices, maybe a 25% discount off the paperback would be more appropriate. Personally if I get an iPad and enjoy reading on it, I would pay the full value of a paperback because I like the idea of taking all my books with me and not consuming a ton of space on a bookshelf. Of course, if the cost was even lower, I would buy even more books, so it isn't all bad if they choose a steeper discount (like 50%).



    I never said variable pricing was a bad thing, and all I was trying to point out that it allows for cheaper prices on older content. Furthermore, I've always acknowledged Apples efforts to fight DRM in music.



    Before going off the wall and going into crazed rants, please make sure you've got the right guy...
  • Reply 65 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by newbee View Post


    It's not the same situation at all. Before iTunes, music sales were being lost to piracy and no one was making money. Apple correctly identified the reason for piracy was about choice as well as cost ... you didn't have to buy a 12 song LP just to get the 3 songs you wanted.



    With the print media you want the whole book, not just a few chapters and piracy is not the huge problem as it was for music. For the most part, people are willing to pay a fair price for content, as was proven by the success of iTunes. Now all that has to happen is for fair pricing to be established by the marketplace .... so, if everyone "votes with their wallet" that will happen, but please remember, what's a "fair price" for you may not be a "fair price" for the masses ... so be prepared to live with the majority opinion.



    If I buy a printed book I can then loan or give it to a friend and they can do the same. It has the same effect as piracy. If I have an ebook, I probably won't loan my Kindle to my friend. If you want to sell more books think about selling 3 ebooks at $9.99 each or one paper book at $20 that 3 people get to read making it worth $6.66 and higher production costs.
  • Reply 66 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by newbee View Post


    It's not the same situation at all. Before iTunes, music sales were being lost to piracy and no one was making money. Apple correctly identified the reason for piracy was about choice as well as cost ... you didn't have to buy a 12 song LP just to get the 3 songs you wanted.



    With the print media you want the whole book, not just a few chapters and piracy is not the huge problem as it was for music. For the most part, people are willing to pay a fair price for content, as was proven by the success of iTunes. Now all that has to happen is for fair pricing to be established by the marketplace .... so, if everyone "votes with their wallet" that will happen, but please remember, what's a "fair price" for you may not be a "fair price" for the masses ... so be prepared to live with the majority opinion.



    "It's not the same situation at all. Before iTunes, music sales were being lost to piracy and no one was making money."



    Thats a myth created by the RIAA so they can sue someone for millions because they had 17 P2P songs on their computer.



    Print media is dying a slow death. No one is going to pay for newspapers even electronic versions when you can get all your news online for free and in a better format.



    Also when it comes to ebooks there are some big named authors that will not even allow their books to be released in this format J.K Rowlings is just one of many.
  • Reply 67 of 116
    Whatever happened to the idea of the public library? I'd be a little less hard on the iPad if Apple introduced some sort of book borrowing paradigm. Of course, there's no profit in that, and if something isn't profitable, then it's not worth doing, eh? It's a sad, sad, commercial world we live in. The promise of computer technology has turned into a salesman throwing sales pitches at us and giving corporations the ability to target us with advertising 24 x 7.



    I thought Apple was a hardware company where the software pushed sales of the hardware that people bought to create stuff. Now it's a media distribution company where the hardware is designed and constrained to push sales of media for consumption.
  • Reply 68 of 116
    cmf2cmf2 Posts: 1,427member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post


    Whatever happened to the idea of the public library? I'd be a little less hard on the iPad if Apple introduced some sort of book borrowing paradigm. Of course, there's no profit in that, and if something isn't profitable, then it's not worth doing, eh? It's a sad, sad, commercial world we live in. The promise of computer technology has turned into a salesman throwing sales pitches at us and giving corporations the ability to target us with advertising 24 x 7.



    I thought Apple was a hardware company where the software pushed sales of the hardware that people bought to create stuff. Now it's a media distribution company where the hardware is designed and constrained to push sales of media for consumption.



    Use something like Stanza then, you can get older stuff free there, have you actually tried to get anything new at the library? Good luck with the the waiting list. Who's to say there won't be a subscription plan similar to what a library would offer anyway?
  • Reply 69 of 116
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,589member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post


    Whatever happened to the idea of the public library? I'd be a little less hard on the iPad if Apple introduced some sort of book borrowing paradigm. Of course, there's no profit in that, and if something isn't profitable, then it's not worth doing, eh? It's a sad, sad, commercial world we live in. The promise of computer technology has turned into a salesman throwing sales pitches at us and giving corporations the ability to target us with advertising 24 x 7.



    I thought Apple was a hardware company where the software pushed sales of the hardware that people bought to create stuff. Now it's a media distribution company where the hardware is designed and constrained to push sales of media for consumption.



    The new library may be called BitTorrent. For the rest of us its just easier to pick up a copy at iTunes. Libraries were always a social service and they will not disappear altogether. Small local libraries may, and that is a real shame. Hopefully local authorities will see their worth and keep them open. Maybe if each local library had several iPads (or any type of e-reader) they would be able to offer a number of physical copies on loan, but virtually 'everything' for in-library consumption. Who knows, maybe someone will bring out a dirt cheap public library ebook that can only be filled by the librarian and as such have little theft value?
  • Reply 70 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by saarek View Post


    I feel very strongly that when I purchase downloadable content (be it video, music or in this case books) it should be cheaper than the physical medium.



    I do not wish to devalue the content of books or the creativity of music artists as their public statements claim.



    ...



    I agree and I believe that the 9.99+ priced books will die a slow death. Even before the iPad Kindle users were complaining about prices. Lookup 999 boycott on google. The market will determine the price and the publishers will have to budge at some point. I don't think most iPad purchasers will be avid readers and avid readers read the vast majority of books. People don't see the benefit of a digital book that is poorer quality (missing may of the pictures and visual relief of the print version), can't be traded, donated to the local library and with a costco membership (or a sale at barnes and noble), cost more than their print versions.
  • Reply 71 of 116
    newbeenewbee Posts: 2,055member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post


    "It's not the same situation at all. Before iTunes, music sales were being lost to piracy and no one was making money."



    Thats a myth created by the RIAA so they can sue someone for millions because they had 17 P2P songs on their computer.



    Print media is dying a slow death. No one is going to pay for newspapers even electronic versions when you can get all your news online for free and in a better format.



    Also when it comes to ebooks there are some big named authors that will not even allow their books to be released in this format J.K Rowlings is just one of many.





    I would suggest to you that "piracy" and "getting it for free" amount to the same thing, as far as the creators of said products are concerned: i.e. musicians/authors etc.

    While it's always fun to criticize outfits like big government/big business, and I admit that they often deserve it, I suspect that, for the most part, those kind of comments are used to "ease our conscience" for not doing what we should instinctively know to be "right".
  • Reply 72 of 116
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post


    Whatever happened to the idea of the public library? I'd be a little less hard on the iPad if Apple introduced some sort of book borrowing paradigm.





    I too think Apple and the publishers are making a HUGE mistake if they are not entertaining the idea of 'loanable' books. I could see it being an enormous boost to book sales. Some rules would have to be established from the start such as how many times a person can 'loan' a particular ebook to someone else. Something like the following perhaps:



    1 - An owner of an ebook can loan the book (they own) out for a period lasting X weeks while it is on loan the book would STILL be available to the owner (this would be a bonus over how things work with printed books).



    2 - The loaned book will self-expire without the need for any special actions.



    3 - The loaned book might have certain ebook reader functionality disabled (text searching, highlighting, etc) at the discretion of the publisher.



    4 - The loaned book can be converted / upgraded at any time via the iTunes bookstore.



    5 - Book loaning would only be available via direct device-to-device connectivity, long distance loaning, internet loaning or 3G loaning would not be permitted.



    6 - The same book can not be loaned to the same destination/device/person more than X times (as permitted by the publisher).



    7 - Once you have 'loaned out' an ebook you will not be permitted to loan it again until the default loan-period ends or the book is 'returned early' if such a mechanism can be properly implemented.



    It's entirely doable and would satisfy / nullify some of the disadvantages associated with ebooks and would also provide a mechanism for public libraries to move forward with the new technologies and while individuals would be limited to loaning a book to a single person (at any given time) a public library would have a more reasonable number 'loan outs' per book.
  • Reply 73 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post


    I too think Apple and the publishers are making a HUGE mistake if they are not entertaining the idea of 'loanable' books. I could see it being an enormous boost to book sales. Some rules would have to be established from the start such as how many times a person can 'loan' a particular ebook to someone else. Something like the following perhaps:



    1 - An owner of an ebook can loan the book (they own) out for a period lasting X weeks while it is on loan the book would STILL be available to the owner (this would be a bonus over how things work with printed books).



    2 - The loaned book will self-expire without the need for any special actions.



    3 - The loaned book might have certain ebook reader functionality disabled (text searching, highlighting, etc) at the discretion of the publisher.



    4 - The loaned book can be converted / upgraded at any time via the iTunes bookstore.



    5 - Book loaning would only be available via direct device-to-device connectivity, long distance loaning, internet loaning or 3G loaning would not be permitted.



    6 - The same book can not be loaned to the same destination/device/person more than X times (as permitted by the publisher).



    7 - Once you have 'loaned out' an ebook you will not be permitted to loan it again until the default loan-period ends or the book is 'returned early' if such a mechanism can be properly implemented.



    It's entirely doable and would satisfy / nullify some of the disadvantages associated with ebooks and would also provide a mechanism for public libraries to move forward with the new technologies and while individuals would be limited to loaning a book to a single person (at any given time) a public library would have a more reasonable number 'loan outs' per book.





    Mmmm.... I Like!



    As to item 4:



    -- The original buyer/loaner could receive a small (but reasonable) credit to his iTunes store account when the loanee copy is purchased. The loanee would then be encouraged to become a loaner to propagate the process.



    This is kind of a reverse Ponzi Scheme or even a "Pay It Forward" effort. Everybody wins, no downside risk, everybody gets a potential for more credits or lower prices!



    *
  • Reply 74 of 116
    al_bundyal_bundy Posts: 1,525member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Buying a movie, TV show, Music Video (or any video) from the iTunes store does not lock you in to any iDevice.



    Rather, if you buy iTunes DRM music or video you are limited to 5 authorized computers and (some number?) of iDevices synched to them.



    I can access (or store and play) this content concurrently on (some number?) of AppleTVs, 5 computers, and (some number?) of iDevices.



    I don't, yet, understand how the iPad fits into this equation!



    *





    the key is that i need itunes or an apple TV to play the content back. a dvd i can buy the cheapest player from any manufacturer or play it from my computer. same with blu-ray.
  • Reply 75 of 116
    al_bundyal_bundy Posts: 1,525member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post


    Whatever happened to the idea of the public library? I'd be a little less hard on the iPad if Apple introduced some sort of book borrowing paradigm. Of course, there's no profit in that, and if something isn't profitable, then it's not worth doing, eh? It's a sad, sad, commercial world we live in. The promise of computer technology has turned into a salesman throwing sales pitches at us and giving corporations the ability to target us with advertising 24 x 7.



    I thought Apple was a hardware company where the software pushed sales of the hardware that people bought to create stuff. Now it's a media distribution company where the hardware is designed and constrained to push sales of media for consumption.



    libraries were created when books were a lot more expensive compared to income. today books are cheap and you can buy second hand even cheaper
  • Reply 76 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macmondo View Post


    I wish it were right. Only 10% for printing and paper???

    first of all, it always depends on how many copies they print from that book.

    I just know magazine printing where this cost of printing and paper, especially the paper is the biggest part of all costs.



    I have a 960 page book in print; including a CD. It costs about $10 to produce. In this particular case, printing costs are closer to 15-20%.



    It is, however, a $60 paperback...
  • Reply 77 of 116
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bosco08 View Post


    The other annoying thing is prices are historically set by supply and demand. With digital versions, there is no limit on supply, so prices are based solely on demand. The market will self-correct. Let them gouge us now (I'm not buying), and learn later.



    I don't think it's so simple. Usually there wasn't a shortage of a given book. Even without a supply curve, there is still a demand curve. They also need to be able to amortize the up-front costs of creating the work. Authors, editors & formatters usually don't work for free. That's where the hardcover usually comes in. After the book has been out for many months or a year, then they release a softcover at a lower price to cover the people that don't mind waiting or just can't justify the hard cover price.
  • Reply 78 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    In past discussions, there were multiple links that gave the cost breakdown for publishing a book. The printing & paper is only 10% of the cost. Distribution is 10%. Typical retailer portion is 40%. Apple takes 30% on most media they sell (iTunes store), and that doesn't earn them more than a sliver of net profit. There are still costs with maintaining the electronic store. The best you can hope for here with electronic distribution is a 30% reduction in cost.



    You forget that electronic books are less valuable. I can't resell them. And more importantly I can't give them to someone else. Which I do with many of my books.
  • Reply 79 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post


    the key is that i need itunes or an apple TV to play the content back. a dvd i can buy the cheapest player from any manufacturer or play it from my computer. same with blu-ray.



    That is simply not true.



    You need iTunes (somewhere) to buy it; or to upload it to iTunes from an AppleTV or iPhone that buys it. But you don't need iTunes or an AppleTV to play it.





    My iTunes/iPhoto media library is on a headless Mini with 2 2TB external drives (one for storage, one for backup).



    The Mini is not authorized to play (or to buy) any purchased media (it is not one of the 5 authorized computers).



    I normally buy from iTunes on my main computer, an iMac 27, and drag-and-drop (screen sharing over WiFi) to the Mini iTunes Media Library. The same for iPhone purchases that are synched to my iMac 27. AppleTV purchases are automatically synched to the Mini ITunes Media Library.



    From any of my 5 authorized Macs, I can play any purchased audio or video using iTunes or I can play them directly with QuickTime. Any or all of these can be played concurrently (WiFi device sharing).



    *
  • Reply 80 of 116
    igeniusigenius Posts: 1,240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    My iTunes/iPhoto media library is on a headless Mini with 2 2TB external drives (one for storage, one for backup).



    The Mini is not authorized to play (or to buy) any purchased media (it is not one of the 5 authorized computers).



    I normally buy from iTunes on my main computer, an iMac 27, and drag-and-drop (screen sharing over WiFi) to the Mini iTunes Media Library.



    That's very cool. So do you use the mini essentially as a media server? How is it connected to the playback devices?



    Wait - I reread what was quoted - the mini is not authorized to play any media? So what do you do with it? Is it just for mass storage?
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