Interest in Amazon Kindle wanes following Apple iPad unveiling

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  • Reply 81 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    I *do* own the Sony reader. And I think you are wrong. Particularly "best possible level" remark.



    The e-ink reading experience is simply so slow it is painful. Any change to the screen content takes an age. A simple page turn might take a entire second or sometimes two.



    When reading a novel from front to back, this is not so big a deal.



    But when I use a real book, I flick through the pages to find a section I want. I flip back a few pages to re-cap. With text books I want to flick to the index, then hop around the sections I need.



    Speed of navigation is essential in a real book. And e-ink kills that dead. Kindle-like e-books are simply un-usable for text-books and reference books because the navigation is so painful.



    C.



    While I apologize for that :gasp: second! it takes for a page to turn (my Kindle must not be the norm, the page turns are pretty flawless...and why is this such a big deal to begin with?) As for eBooks in the realm of textbooks and reference books, the same holds true for an iPad as well. Yea it might be nice to have all your books (that you can't resell like a normal text book) on that device that you have (in addition to your laptop), the ability to take quick notes will still keep physical text books and reference books in their place. I would imagine those in the education field would also agree the physical taking of notes makes a much larger impression in learning than taking a text note with an iPad/iPod/iPhone/iLaptop keyboard.
  • Reply 82 of 98
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daving313 View Post


    While I apologize for that :gasp: second! it takes for a page to turn (my Kindle must not be the norm, the page turns are pretty flawless...and why is this such a big deal to begin with?) As for eBooks in the realm of textbooks and reference books, the same holds true for an iPad as well. Yea it might be nice to have all your books (that you can't resell like a normal text book) on that device that you have (in addition to your laptop), the ability to take quick notes will still keep physical text books and reference books in their place. I would imagine those in the education field would also agree the physical taking of notes makes a much larger impression in learning than taking a text note with an iPad/iPod/iPhone/iLaptop keyboard.



    You both have valid points. Like most tech, it rarely completely phases out an older one completely.



    I think we'll see eBooks take off despite the inherent DRM scheme. I think we'll see e-ink-only devices trickle down into a much smaller niche finally being replaced with a hybrid displays, like Pixel Qi.WHile not as good as an LCD, especially one that uses an S-IPS panel, this odes offer the option of colour video or a power-saving e-ink as needed. That seems like a nice trade off for many uses.



    The common argument for e-ink is that they are easier to read on and that you can't read all day on a backlit monitor. Yet, I can't stand the light-grey on dark-grey of e-ink and having been reading all day on monitors for well over a decade so I think that iPad and other tablets will quickly become the most popular way to read eBooks. Didn't Amazon buy an LCD company recently so it looks like they may be headed down that road.



    With e-ink there never would have a great deal of text and resource books available as they often need colour and higher resolution to be useful. With the iPad that becomes more likely, but as you state there is still a problem with note taking. This is one area I had hoped Apple would have addressed and showcased at the introduction. It's since been pointed out to me that a stylus for precise handwritten notes and diagrams aren't yet feasible with the spacing of the sensors on a capacitance display. The other feature is annotations for adding typed notes to a page and highlighting, underlining, striking-through, etc. areas of the book, which could be done by a clever a developer. Hell, make a new standard as ePub has major limitations which is requiring many publishers to look elsewhere for ideas.
  • Reply 83 of 98
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You both have valid points. Like most tech, it rarely completely phases out an older one completely.



    I think we'll see eBooks take off despite the inherent DRM scheme. I think we'll see e-ink-only devices trickle down into a much smaller niche finally being replaced with a hybrid displays, like Pixel Qi.WHile not as good as an LCD, especially one that uses an S-IPS panel, this odes offer the option of colour video or a power-saving e-ink as needed. That seems like a nice trade off for many uses.



    The common argument for e-ink is that they are easier to read on and that you can't read all day on a backlit monitor. Yet, I can't stand the light-grey on dark-grey of e-ink and having been reading all day on monitors for well over a decade so I think that iPad and other tablets will quickly become the most popular way to read eBooks. Didn't Amazon buy an LCD company recently so it looks like they may be headed down that road.



    With e-ink there never would have a great deal of text and resource books available as they often need colour and higher resolution to be useful. With the iPad that becomes more likely, but as you state there is still a problem with note taking. This is one area I had hoped Apple would have addressed and showcased at the introduction. It's since been pointed out to me that a stylus for precise handwritten notes and diagrams aren't yet feasible with the spacing of the sensors on a capacitance display. The other feature is annotations for adding typed notes to a page and highlighting, underlining, striking-through, etc. areas of the book, which could be done by a clever a developer. Hell, make a new standard as ePub has major limitations which is requiring many publishers to look elsewhere for ideas.



    I'm waiting for the first Mirasol eink devices in Q4.



    P.S. Amazon didn't bought an LCD company, it bought an startup wich makes touch screens: Touchco
  • Reply 84 of 98
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post


    I'm waiting for the first Mirasol eink devices in Q4.



    That a possible contender and while the frame rates and ppi are feasible the colour quality seems pretty poor. Pixel Qi seems better at that while still offering good battery life, albeit not nearly as good as iMoD.



    Battery life is important, but if you can get a day of use from, say an iPad, while having it be lightweight while offering good image quality I have to think that is what most people would choose when going for a tablet. I can't even stand the poor LCDs found on most cheap PCs these days so I think I'd personally have a problem with Pixel Qi or iMoD, but we'll have to wait and see. I look forward to the comparisons.



    For tablets, the iPad should have a few month head start over Pixel Qi which has a head start of 6 months(?) over Mirasol. While Apple has shown that being best is more important than being first I fear that most won't care about or require the benefits those non-LCDs. For their sake, I hope that the iPad's display doesn't make for good book reading, but I think it will.



    For those not familiar, here is a little info and images on Qualcomm's Mirasol...
    Quote:

    P.S. Amazon didn't bought an LCD company, it bought an startup wich makes touch screens: Touchco



    Okay, thank. I thought something was off about my recollection, hence the question. That makes much more sense.
  • Reply 85 of 98
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daving313 View Post


    While I apologize for that :gasp: second! it takes for a page to turn (my Kindle must not be the norm, the page turns are pretty flawless...and why is this such a big deal to begin with?) As for eBooks in the realm of textbooks and reference books, the same holds true for an iPad as well.



    The thing about the iPad is it has the same highly responsive interface as the iPhone. It has an interface that responds instantly to each and every input in less that 1/30s.

    So navigation, whether it be web-pages or books or games, has the potential to be instant and intuitive. A 30frames a second you could potentially flick through an entire book in 5 seconds. At 1.5 seconds per page, the Kindle would take thee or four minutes.



    E-ink can not deliver a responsive interface. Because every input is followed by a one or two second delay while the screen re-draws itself. That technology simply cannot do "responsive'"



    A super-responsive interface is one reason why the iPhone has performed so well in the eyes of users.



    Apologies for that.



    C.
  • Reply 86 of 98
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    At 1.5 seconds per page, the Kindle would take thee or four minutes.





    1.5 sec per page? I highly doubt that speed, perhaps 0.5 sec
  • Reply 87 of 98
    I want a unit the size of the iPhone, for carrying, that expands to the size of the iPad when you when you want to use it. Also must support a stylus.
  • Reply 88 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    The thing about the iPad is it has the same highly responsive interface as the iPhone. It has an interface that responds instantly to each and every input in less that 1/30s.

    So navigation, whether it be web-pages or books or games, has the potential to be instant and intuitive. A 30frames a second you could potentially flick through an entire book in 5 seconds. At 1.5 seconds per page, the Kindle would take thee or four minutes.



    E-ink can not deliver a responsive interface. Because every input is followed by a one or two second delay while the screen re-draws itself. That technology simply cannot do "responsive'"



    A super-responsive interface is one reason why the iPhone has performed so well in the eyes of users.



    Apologies for that.



    C.



    Ha, I'll have to ask my fiance about her "super-responsive" iPhone that takes many seconds to load text messages, open up apps, etc (yes, she does a every few month wipe of the device and re-load as well). I would love to see you swipe through an entire book in 5 seconds also. Please, put that on YouTube. I should put a YouTube up of my Kindle. It does not take 2 seconds to re-draw a page. It is < 1 second, which in this fast-paced world of on demand gotta have it now, is plenty fine.
  • Reply 89 of 98
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daving313 View Post


    Ha, I'll have to ask my fiance about her "super-responsive" iPhone that takes many seconds to load text messages, open up apps, etc (yes, she does a every few month wipe of the device and re-load as well). I would love to see you swipe through an entire book in 5 seconds also. Please, put that on YouTube. I should put a YouTube up of my Kindle. It does not take 2 seconds to re-draw a page. It is < 1 second, which in this fast-paced world of on demand gotta have it now, is plenty fine.



    The *display technology* on an iPad is capable of updating the entire screen at 60 times a second. With the right navigation software - it could easily display 1 page per frame.

    A highly responsive user interface needs a display technology capable of at least 30 refreshes per second. Anything less that that feels sluggish.



    I just used my Sony E Reader to page through the first 10 pages of the Avatar screenplay.

    I timed it. It took 17 seconds.



    C.



    Can you watch YouTube on the Kindle?
  • Reply 90 of 98
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    Can you watch YouTube on the Kindle?





    Is this a serious question?
  • Reply 91 of 98
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post


    Is this a serious question?



    Nah, I was messin' widja.



    C.
  • Reply 92 of 98
    igeniusigenius Posts: 1,240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post


    I'm calling vaporware, but if they do release it before the end of the year I'll buy it.



    It does look very cool. Superior to the iPad in many ways. But it is not possible to evaluate it fully based upon a photo.
  • Reply 93 of 98
    igeniusigenius Posts: 1,240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post




    And I don't think they won't be good in some situations or in some kind of books (terchnical, school books, art books, cinema books), but what can add to a novel?



    Zoomable maps. Cross-references to the author's other books, or to relevant information on the subject matter of the passage. Background music from the period being discussed.
  • Reply 94 of 98
    igeniusigenius Posts: 1,240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    I must have been dreaming, but I seem to remember full-featured tablets being sold for the last 10 years.



    C.



    Good point.
  • Reply 95 of 98
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iGenius View Post


    Good point.



    And they never sold well. I winder how many quarters it will take Apple to sell every tablet ever sold in the past decade. Not many I assume. Of couse, the iPad is a fraction of the coat of past tablets, but that, along with proper HW, OS and apps are what will make it popular.



    HW vendors have a grand opportunity to come to market with a tablet built with a mobile OS in mind, not with a desktop OS crammed into a 5lb machin with an hour of usable battery life. Unlike the iPhone launch of 2007 or the launch of App Store, Apple doesn't have luxury of time to build it's user base this time.
  • Reply 96 of 98
    igeniusigenius Posts: 1,240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    And they never sold well. I winder how many quarters it will take Apple to sell every tablet ever sold in the past decade. Not many I assume. Of couse, the iPad is a fraction of the coat of past tablets, but that, along with proper HW, OS and apps are what will make it popular.



    HW vendors have a grand opportunity to come to market with a tablet built with a mobile OS in mind, not with a desktop OS crammed into a 5lb machin with an hour of usable battery life. Unlike the iPhone launch of 2007 or the launch of App Store, Apple doesn't have luxury of time to build it's user base this time.



    I've been thinking about the original point I complimented: That full-featured tablets have been available for years, and have not sold well. I've wondered why.



    Maybe as you point out, the form factor is a problem. Maybe Windoze Tablet Edition sucks big time. Certainly the price has been a problem.



    So I wonder whether a full-featured tablet is possible in a nice form factor for cheap? If so, then that is what I will wait for. If not, then my laptop stays on my lap, perhaps supplemented someday by a hot-shit little netbook for casual use.



    The ONLY thing a tablet might be better for is reading books - the portrait mode is not practical on a netbook.



    I also wonder whether a large touchscreen makes any sense. For web surfing, heck, for anything that requires one to position a mouse, a tiny trackpad near your hand position makes a lot more sense than a big screen that needs to be reached with big arm movements. I'd rather move my fingertips on a trackpad than move my arm to reach the screen.



    So I wonder whether the "nothing to hold the screen in position" form factor with the "move your whole arm to position the cursor" tablet paradigm is really superior.



    As I've said, I'd never consider a 4:3 tablet, because that would ruin the movie watching experience with a tiny picture and large blank areas of screen.
  • Reply 97 of 98
    toyintoyin Posts: 58member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iGenius View Post


    The ONLY thing a tablet might be better for is reading books - the portrait mode is not practical on a netbook.



    Allow me to refine your statement (which I don't agree with btw)



    The ONLY thing a tablet might be better for is reading...

    To expand that further...The ONLY thing a tablet might be better for is reading AND viewing.



    What do you do mostly on the web? Read and view material. Like I said before, having the tablet that many inches/feet closer to your face is going to make a significant difference.



    Mouse/Track Pad vs Finger/Hand. We'll see have to wait and see which wins out. The problem with previous tablets is that the OS was made for a mouse, not a finger. The iPad is made to be used with your fingers. I had a Toshiba convertible tablet that I used for an EMR system. It SUCKED. I ended up using it as a laptop because it was too difficult to navigate and input data using just a stylus. This was with an EMR that was mostly point and click with limited typing.



    Mouse and keypad is great for OSX and Windows, but I think Apple is aiming to change OSX to be more like the iPhone OS. This will be a hand/finger based OS. Watching my 5 and 8 year old whiz around the iPhone with no instruction leads me to believe that the hand/finger combo will win out in the end.
  • Reply 98 of 98
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iGenius View Post


    As I've said, I'd never consider a 4:3 tablet, because that would ruin the movie watching experience with a tiny picture and large blank areas of screen.



    I don't see that as a problem as a problem. I've watched plenty of movies, Tv show, and other assorted video clips on my iPhone. Almost none are the 3:2 format. You either view with letterbox or double tap to fill the screen. There is scarcely a modern movie I watch on a large 16:9 HDTV that isn't a wider format. While I guess it would be ideal to have the viewer be exactly the same ratio as the content it's a silly request that is rarely going to work out.
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