mjohn68 thinks these aren't actual images of an actual iPhone:
Maybe. What he asked in his post, that you replied to was:
If these are actual images of an actual iPhone, then why don't we see it turned on?
If they were real wouldn't Apple be issuing Cease and desist letters to these sites that posted the pics?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
The four links showed him that the "actual images of an actual iPhone" are real enough that Apple Senior VP and General Counsel Bruce Sewell asked for the actual device back.
yes they do. Which wasn't what he asked, in the post you replied to. Hence my question if you read the post to which you replied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
The C&D isn't going to happen because you basically can't get that genie back into the bottle.
FWIW, my guess is that Brian Lam, Jason Chen and Nick Denton are going to wish they got a C&D from Apple Legal. My guess is that what's going to go down is going to be a bit more serious than a C&D letter.
C&D will help if they have additional information that is yet unpublished. Also, when other sites have in the past released photos of leaked Apple products, hell, even just descriptions, Apple has sent C&D letters to have the info removed and launched lawsuits to enforce them. Useless, yes, just a historic precedent nonetheless.
You are right, they might wish for the C&D. I mean, making a boat load of cash on the extra hits, having the value of their site go up because of high interests stories like this (sort of like why MacRumors, AI became so popular). Yep, lots of regrets.
WTF? Four links that don't have anything to do with a lack of cease and desist letters? That do not, in anyway explain the lack of photos showing it turned onbefore the subsequent letter (not a C&D) was sent?
They said the software on the device was killed remotely, likely on connecting to a network for the first time - prototype devices have those types of controls in case a unit goes missing. They weren't able to put other software onto it. They could only get it to boot into recovery mode, which is not worth photographing really.
They said the software on the device was killed remotely, likely on connecting to a network for the first time - prototype devices have those types of controls in case a unit goes missing. They weren't able to put other software onto it. They could only get it to boot into recovery mode, which is not worth photographing really.
I know. mjohn68 asked why Apple didn't issue C&D and why there were no photos of it turned on. I just thought the answer was irrelevant to those questions.
C&D isn't the be-all-end-all. That's hardly the only legal avenue available to Apple, esp. with every other blog storing their own copies of pictures of the device.
Am I really the only one that thinks that the ONLY break in the frame edge could be for an IR transceiver? I'd at least like a rational answer as to why Apple would never include one in the iPhone
Solip, there are TWO breaks in the frame edge, not one. The other is on the lower left hand side.
Solip, there are TWO breaks in the frame edge, not one. The other is on the lower left hand side.
It really only looked like one to me with the other being points for the backing. With a mic, headphone jack, silent button and volume buttons on that side, plus the fact that Apple has never done a user-replacemable battery on any iDevice, and now not even on Mac notebooks, it seems that a user replaceable battery is the most unlikely thing to expect. Not to mention that battery was not protected in the way a user-replacable battery should be.
It really only looked like one to me with the other being points for the backing. With a mic, headphone jack, silent button and volume buttons on that side, plus the fact that Apple has never done a user-replacemable battery on any iDevice, and now not even on Mac notebooks, it seems that a user replaceable battery is the most unlikely thing to expect. Not to mention that battery was not protected in the way a user-replacable battery should be.
I'm not arguing with the suggestion that break on top might be for an IR transceiver. I hope it is - it would certainly be a useful hardware addition.
Likewise I'm not suggesting that the existence of 2 breaks in any way means that the unit will be user "openable". In fact I think that's highly unlikely.
It really only looked like one to me with the other being points for the backing. With a mic, headphone jack, silent button and volume buttons on that side, plus the fact that Apple has never done a user-replacemable battery on any iDevice, and now not even on Mac notebooks, it seems that a user replaceable battery is the most unlikely thing to expect. Not to mention that battery was not protected in the way a user-replacable battery should be.
Their last articles state that it is no way user accessible (the battery). The users would have to get by a pile of screws and disconnections to get to it. Guess that clears that up.
Their last articles state that it is no way user accessible (the battery). The users would have to get by a pile of screws and disconnections to get to it. Guess that clears that up.
It was clear before that. The battery had not shell to make it user replaceable and everything about the break point locations indicated that it could't be a door. And that is before you consider Apple's long standing reasons for not offering a user-replacable battery and the direction they are moving with their notebooks.
I think some people are going to continue to expect it year after year.
People are really playing up the possibility of a leak - keep in mind:
If you so much as send a txt msg to a friend about an unreleased product while working at Apple - you're fired.
If you leave your work station without covering up the secret hardware you're working on, with the secret black blanket - you're fired (some projects are to be worked on, only while under the blanket, never to be exposed to the eyes of another employee).
If you go through a secured door without swiping your card (ride along on someone else's swipe) - you're fired.
If you refused to relinquish all your digital belongings, including private cell phone, laptop, email credentials, etc - when suspected of sending a txt about an unreleased product - you're fired!
Not to mention, functional prototypes of unreleased devices are kept in the level 4 security, R&D section of the Apple campus. You cannot take anything inside the level 4 doors - no usb drives, no cell phones, no laptops - nothing. If you require information or data, you send it electronically through approved channels so that it can monitored. You cannot exit level 4 with anything other than the clothes you brought in, having to pass through metal detectors and empty ones pockets.
Top-level executives are given restricted access to only the sectors required to effectively do their job - if your job doesn't entail top-level R&D, you'll never see the secured R&D sector - period.
Do you honestly believe that a prototype device got out from under the secret blanket, out of the secured doors, through the metal detectors and security tag detectors (yes, Apple is known to add security tags to prototype hardware), through 3 more levels of security, off the campus and then in a simple bit of drunken stupidity, was left unattended for even a split second?!?
Not just improbable - so improbable that it borders on impossible. When was the last time a completed, operational Apple product was leaked (all hardware and software together)? If I recall correctly, it was never.
Indeed, if it's actually an Apple device, it was planted. If it's not, it sure did get everyone talking - what can be said for sure is, it's certainly not the top-secret device that will be making waves this June.
I've worked in government facilities that have more security than that. And they have the legal powers to do a lot more than fire you. Yet, facilities like that have lost information that's far more vital than an iPhone prototype.
Unless you are absolutely intimately aware of how Apple handles field testing, you can't be 100% sure that the devices never leave the campus (thus opening them up to greater risk of loss or theft). And if the UK SIS (or MI6 from the old days) can leave Top Secret files on Al Qaeda and Iraq in a briefcase on the London Tube, I am willing to accept that it's in the realm of possibility for an Apple engineer who was allowed to take the prototype off campus for a defined period of real-world testing, to lose it on a night out on the town.
I don't know if it's an intentional leak or not. All I am saying is that nobody can say definitively one way or another.
I've worked in government facilities that have more security than that. And they have the legal powers to do a lot more than fire you. Yet, facilities like that have lost information that's far more vital than an iPhone prototype.
Unless you are absolutely intimately aware of how Apple handles field testing, you can't be 100% sure that the devices never leave the campus (thus opening them up to greater risk of loss or theft). And if the UK SIS (or MI6 from the old days) can leave Top Secret files on Al Qaeda and Iraq in a briefcase on the London Tube, I am willing to accept that it's in the realm of possibility for an Apple engineer who was allowed to take the prototype off campus for a defined period of real-world testing, to lose it on a night out on the town.
I don't know if it's an intentional leak or not. All I am saying is that nobody can say definitively one way or another.
You have to wonder about these people that believe 1) Apple security is perfect and could never fail and 2) unreleased Apple products never leave their facilities.
How exactly to these people think the devices are field tested? Do the think Apple has magic pixie dust that makes lab testing qualify as field testing?
You have to wonder about these people that believe 1) Apple security is perfect and could never fail and 2) unreleased Apple products never leave their facilities.
How exactly to these people think the devices are field tested? Do the think Apple has magic pixie dust that makes lab testing qualify as field testing?
The fact of the matter is that Apple has been very sucessful.. (up 'till now) ..in keeping its releases secret until the moment of release.
That is hugely difficult and requires a massive effort on the part of a lot of people.
What is surprising is not that this leak has happened, but rather that is has never happened before.
The fact of the matter is that Apple has been very sucessful.. (up 'till now) ..in keeping its releases secret until the moment of release.
That is hugely difficult and requires a massive effort on the part of a lot of people.
What is surprising is not that this leak has happened, but rather that is has never happened before.
C.
Apple probably has the best security of any company in the world. Likely competitive to government facilities. Leaks happen from government facilities too. But, Apple products, especially the iPhone, requires testing outside of their facilities. Once it outside, mistakes can happen.
I am not surprised it hasn't happened before, but it had to happen sometime. Apple is staffed with people and people make mistakes. I am surprised at people who think it couldn't happen to Apple, simply because it is Apple.
Apple probably has the best security of any company in the world. Likely competitive to government facilities. Leaks happen from government facilities too. But, Apple products, especially the iPhone, requires testing outside of their facilities. Once it outside, mistakes can happen.
I am not surprised it hasn't happened before, but it had to happen sometime. Apple is staffed with people and people make mistakes. I am surprised at people who think it couldn't happen to Apple, simply because it is Apple.
I'm surprised that they let these phones out like that at all. I would have expected them to be on day trips with at least two people so that corporate espionage would be less likely. After this they might start doing that and put in in a case that is handcuffed to your wrist.
I'm surprised that they let these phones out like that at all. I would have expected them to be on day trips with at least two people so that corporate espionage would be less likely. After this they might start doing that and put in in a case that is handcuffed to your wrist.
Even the 1st gen, one of the most protected products in their history had to be let out. They even had to give AT&T access to multiple units to test across the country and in different environments, for months of testing prior to launch.
To field test it in real world conditions requires certain constraints to be removed.
Even the 1st gen, one of the most protected products in their history had to be let out. They even had to give AT&T access to multiple units to test across the country and in different environments, for months of testing prior to launch.
To field test it in real world conditions requires certain constraints to be removed.
Why does AT&T need to get these phones to test? Apple can test to see if their phones are working properly or not. They might have asked for AT&T's help because they had no prior experience in cellular technology at the time, but I can't image them just giving AT&T a bunch of phones and hoping they don't into the enemy's hands, though we are talking about 6 months between announcement and release so there isn't much that needs to be hidden, while this new phone still hasn't been announced.
I'm pretty sure there will be a policy change coming out of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
It's too bad iFixit, iSuppli or anandtech didn't get in on the teardown. I'd love to know more about this device. Anyway, there's always July....
I'm quite surprised iSuppli hasn't already made claims to the BOM cost of the HW based on Gizmodo's photos.
I don't think AnandTech would have been so sleezy as to buy the device or tear it apart. If they had found it I think they would have returned it and asked that they could get free Apple products ahead of time in the future for testing purposes, like other tech writers get. That would have been a better long term solution, IMO.
iFixit would have done crazy things to it and would have detailed the teardown in a pleasant, systematic way, not the Swedish Chef feel you get from looking at Giz's photos.
I'm surprised that they let these phones out like that at all. I would have expected them to be on day trips with at least two people so that corporate espionage would be less likely. After this they might start doing that and put in in a case that is handcuffed to your wrist.
Maybe they wanted to see what drunk 27 year old engineers would do with it on their birthday?
Jokes aside. Even if you are Apple you have to trust your people. In my line of work, I have carried highly classified documents internationally. It's nerve-wracking to have a spend days holding on to highly classified stuff. Do you not eat out, or grab a beer at all while you have that on you? I would hope that I would not be as careless as this fellow with such property. But having been in a similar situation, I do sympathize with him. We are all human. We all make mistakes.
Comments
Hey, Tulkas, how've you been?
mjohn68 thinks these aren't actual images of an actual iPhone:
Maybe. What he asked in his post, that you replied to was:
If these are actual images of an actual iPhone, then why don't we see it turned on?
If they were real wouldn't Apple be issuing Cease and desist letters to these sites that posted the pics?
The four links showed him that the "actual images of an actual iPhone" are real enough that Apple Senior VP and General Counsel Bruce Sewell asked for the actual device back.
yes they do. Which wasn't what he asked, in the post you replied to. Hence my question if you read the post to which you replied.
The C&D isn't going to happen because you basically can't get that genie back into the bottle.
FWIW, my guess is that Brian Lam, Jason Chen and Nick Denton are going to wish they got a C&D from Apple Legal. My guess is that what's going to go down is going to be a bit more serious than a C&D letter.
C&D will help if they have additional information that is yet unpublished. Also, when other sites have in the past released photos of leaked Apple products, hell, even just descriptions, Apple has sent C&D letters to have the info removed and launched lawsuits to enforce them. Useless, yes, just a historic precedent nonetheless.
You are right, they might wish for the C&D. I mean, making a boat load of cash on the extra hits, having the value of their site go up because of high interests stories like this (sort of like why MacRumors, AI became so popular). Yep, lots of regrets.
WTF? Four links that don't have anything to do with a lack of cease and desist letters? That do not, in anyway explain the lack of photos showing it turned onbefore the subsequent letter (not a C&D) was sent?
They said the software on the device was killed remotely, likely on connecting to a network for the first time - prototype devices have those types of controls in case a unit goes missing. They weren't able to put other software onto it. They could only get it to boot into recovery mode, which is not worth photographing really.
They said the software on the device was killed remotely, likely on connecting to a network for the first time - prototype devices have those types of controls in case a unit goes missing. They weren't able to put other software onto it. They could only get it to boot into recovery mode, which is not worth photographing really.
I know. mjohn68 asked why Apple didn't issue C&D and why there were no photos of it turned on. I just thought the answer was irrelevant to those questions.
Am I really the only one that thinks that the ONLY break in the frame edge could be for an IR transceiver? I'd at least like a rational answer as to why Apple would never include one in the iPhone
Solip, there are TWO breaks in the frame edge, not one. The other is on the lower left hand side.
Solip, there are TWO breaks in the frame edge, not one. The other is on the lower left hand side.
It really only looked like one to me with the other being points for the backing. With a mic, headphone jack, silent button and volume buttons on that side, plus the fact that Apple has never done a user-replacemable battery on any iDevice, and now not even on Mac notebooks, it seems that a user replaceable battery is the most unlikely thing to expect. Not to mention that battery was not protected in the way a user-replacable battery should be.
It really only looked like one to me with the other being points for the backing. With a mic, headphone jack, silent button and volume buttons on that side, plus the fact that Apple has never done a user-replacemable battery on any iDevice, and now not even on Mac notebooks, it seems that a user replaceable battery is the most unlikely thing to expect. Not to mention that battery was not protected in the way a user-replacable battery should be.
I'm not arguing with the suggestion that break on top might be for an IR transceiver. I hope it is - it would certainly be a useful hardware addition.
Likewise I'm not suggesting that the existence of 2 breaks in any way means that the unit will be user "openable". In fact I think that's highly unlikely.
Just making sure that we get our facts right :-)
...and they can release them in measured/calculated intervals to ensure that the buzz keeps its momentum.
Just like you called it.
Yes, that's all I'm saying. 'that photo isn't any sort of proof'.
Gizmodo reported "multiple" Apple labeled components. If they can see em, they can shoot em.
Have you gotten enough proof yet?
Just like you called it.
Have you gotten enough proof yet?
Turns out they couldn't shoot some of the parts, as getting to them would mean breaking it and they did not want to risk that.
It really only looked like one to me with the other being points for the backing. With a mic, headphone jack, silent button and volume buttons on that side, plus the fact that Apple has never done a user-replacemable battery on any iDevice, and now not even on Mac notebooks, it seems that a user replaceable battery is the most unlikely thing to expect. Not to mention that battery was not protected in the way a user-replacable battery should be.
Their last articles state that it is no way user accessible (the battery). The users would have to get by a pile of screws and disconnections to get to it. Guess that clears that up.
Their last articles state that it is no way user accessible (the battery). The users would have to get by a pile of screws and disconnections to get to it. Guess that clears that up.
It was clear before that. The battery had not shell to make it user replaceable and everything about the break point locations indicated that it could't be a door. And that is before you consider Apple's long standing reasons for not offering a user-replacable battery and the direction they are moving with their notebooks.
I think some people are going to continue to expect it year after year.
People are really playing up the possibility of a leak - keep in mind:
- If you so much as send a txt msg to a friend about an unreleased product while working at Apple - you're fired.
- If you leave your work station without covering up the secret hardware you're working on, with the secret black blanket - you're fired (some projects are to be worked on, only while under the blanket, never to be exposed to the eyes of another employee).
- If you go through a secured door without swiping your card (ride along on someone else's swipe) - you're fired.
- If you refused to relinquish all your digital belongings, including private cell phone, laptop, email credentials, etc - when suspected of sending a txt about an unreleased product - you're fired!
Not to mention, functional prototypes of unreleased devices are kept in the level 4 security, R&D section of the Apple campus. You cannot take anything inside the level 4 doors - no usb drives, no cell phones, no laptops - nothing. If you require information or data, you send it electronically through approved channels so that it can monitored. You cannot exit level 4 with anything other than the clothes you brought in, having to pass through metal detectors and empty ones pockets.Top-level executives are given restricted access to only the sectors required to effectively do their job - if your job doesn't entail top-level R&D, you'll never see the secured R&D sector - period.
Do you honestly believe that a prototype device got out from under the secret blanket, out of the secured doors, through the metal detectors and security tag detectors (yes, Apple is known to add security tags to prototype hardware), through 3 more levels of security, off the campus and then in a simple bit of drunken stupidity, was left unattended for even a split second?!?
Not just improbable - so improbable that it borders on impossible. When was the last time a completed, operational Apple product was leaked (all hardware and software together)? If I recall correctly, it was never.
Indeed, if it's actually an Apple device, it was planted. If it's not, it sure did get everyone talking - what can be said for sure is, it's certainly not the top-secret device that will be making waves this June.
I've worked in government facilities that have more security than that. And they have the legal powers to do a lot more than fire you. Yet, facilities like that have lost information that's far more vital than an iPhone prototype.
Unless you are absolutely intimately aware of how Apple handles field testing, you can't be 100% sure that the devices never leave the campus (thus opening them up to greater risk of loss or theft). And if the UK SIS (or MI6 from the old days) can leave Top Secret files on Al Qaeda and Iraq in a briefcase on the London Tube, I am willing to accept that it's in the realm of possibility for an Apple engineer who was allowed to take the prototype off campus for a defined period of real-world testing, to lose it on a night out on the town.
I don't know if it's an intentional leak or not. All I am saying is that nobody can say definitively one way or another.
I've worked in government facilities that have more security than that. And they have the legal powers to do a lot more than fire you. Yet, facilities like that have lost information that's far more vital than an iPhone prototype.
Unless you are absolutely intimately aware of how Apple handles field testing, you can't be 100% sure that the devices never leave the campus (thus opening them up to greater risk of loss or theft). And if the UK SIS (or MI6 from the old days) can leave Top Secret files on Al Qaeda and Iraq in a briefcase on the London Tube, I am willing to accept that it's in the realm of possibility for an Apple engineer who was allowed to take the prototype off campus for a defined period of real-world testing, to lose it on a night out on the town.
I don't know if it's an intentional leak or not. All I am saying is that nobody can say definitively one way or another.
You have to wonder about these people that believe 1) Apple security is perfect and could never fail and 2) unreleased Apple products never leave their facilities.
How exactly to these people think the devices are field tested? Do the think Apple has magic pixie dust that makes lab testing qualify as field testing?
You have to wonder about these people that believe 1) Apple security is perfect and could never fail and 2) unreleased Apple products never leave their facilities.
How exactly to these people think the devices are field tested? Do the think Apple has magic pixie dust that makes lab testing qualify as field testing?
The fact of the matter is that Apple has been very sucessful.. (up 'till now) ..in keeping its releases secret until the moment of release.
That is hugely difficult and requires a massive effort on the part of a lot of people.
What is surprising is not that this leak has happened, but rather that is has never happened before.
C.
The fact of the matter is that Apple has been very sucessful.. (up 'till now) ..in keeping its releases secret until the moment of release.
That is hugely difficult and requires a massive effort on the part of a lot of people.
What is surprising is not that this leak has happened, but rather that is has never happened before.
C.
Apple probably has the best security of any company in the world. Likely competitive to government facilities. Leaks happen from government facilities too. But, Apple products, especially the iPhone, requires testing outside of their facilities. Once it outside, mistakes can happen.
I am not surprised it hasn't happened before, but it had to happen sometime. Apple is staffed with people and people make mistakes. I am surprised at people who think it couldn't happen to Apple, simply because it is Apple.
Apple probably has the best security of any company in the world. Likely competitive to government facilities. Leaks happen from government facilities too. But, Apple products, especially the iPhone, requires testing outside of their facilities. Once it outside, mistakes can happen.
I am not surprised it hasn't happened before, but it had to happen sometime. Apple is staffed with people and people make mistakes. I am surprised at people who think it couldn't happen to Apple, simply because it is Apple.
I'm surprised that they let these phones out like that at all. I would have expected them to be on day trips with at least two people so that corporate espionage would be less likely. After this they might start doing that and put in in a case that is handcuffed to your wrist.
I'm surprised that they let these phones out like that at all. I would have expected them to be on day trips with at least two people so that corporate espionage would be less likely. After this they might start doing that and put in in a case that is handcuffed to your wrist.
Even the 1st gen, one of the most protected products in their history had to be let out. They even had to give AT&T access to multiple units to test across the country and in different environments, for months of testing prior to launch.
To field test it in real world conditions requires certain constraints to be removed.
Even the 1st gen, one of the most protected products in their history had to be let out. They even had to give AT&T access to multiple units to test across the country and in different environments, for months of testing prior to launch.
To field test it in real world conditions requires certain constraints to be removed.
Why does AT&T need to get these phones to test? Apple can test to see if their phones are working properly or not. They might have asked for AT&T's help because they had no prior experience in cellular technology at the time, but I can't image them just giving AT&T a bunch of phones and hoping they don't into the enemy's hands, though we are talking about 6 months between announcement and release so there isn't much that needs to be hidden, while this new phone still hasn't been announced.
I'm pretty sure there will be a policy change coming out of this.
It's too bad iFixit, iSuppli or anandtech didn't get in on the teardown. I'd love to know more about this device. Anyway, there's always July....
I'm quite surprised iSuppli hasn't already made claims to the BOM cost of the HW based on Gizmodo's photos.
I don't think AnandTech would have been so sleezy as to buy the device or tear it apart. If they had found it I think they would have returned it and asked that they could get free Apple products ahead of time in the future for testing purposes, like other tech writers get. That would have been a better long term solution, IMO.
iFixit would have done crazy things to it and would have detailed the teardown in a pleasant, systematic way, not the Swedish Chef feel you get from looking at Giz's photos.
I'm surprised that they let these phones out like that at all. I would have expected them to be on day trips with at least two people so that corporate espionage would be less likely. After this they might start doing that and put in in a case that is handcuffed to your wrist.
Maybe they wanted to see what drunk 27 year old engineers would do with it on their birthday?
Jokes aside. Even if you are Apple you have to trust your people. In my line of work, I have carried highly classified documents internationally. It's nerve-wracking to have a spend days holding on to highly classified stuff. Do you not eat out, or grab a beer at all while you have that on you? I would hope that I would not be as careless as this fellow with such property. But having been in a similar situation, I do sympathize with him. We are all human. We all make mistakes.