Well mobile devices are largely the issue with Flash. I already said it works fine as long as you have a PC with ample resources and an unlimited power source. The problem for Flash is that will no longer be the primary way people use computers.
The future will be focused on devices with limited resources and limited power supply. Flash is not the right tool for these types of devices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube
Well that's a rather narrow view isn't it? One can take any sampling, set of numbers, and spin anyway they like.
Oh, only mobile sites, and apps! Like that isn't skewing things just a wee bit now isn't it. Why don't you go a step further, and say only apps! Then you can screech 100%!! We are the champions!
It does tell you your website is 50% more likely to be seen by an iPhone user and far less likely to be seen by the user of every other phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube
that still doesn't tell me there are more iphone users specifically to target, just that iphone users surf more. Certainly a valuable stat, (I seem to need to disclaimer anything that may be taken somewhat negative...) There are still, only one pair of eyes on that screen
you are talking about apps. I wasn't talking about targeting users with apps.
I'm talking about targeting the most users with a website, or ad campaign. Apps, are but one method of delivery, albeit a good one.
Make no mistake, before my statements once again get twisted and spit back out to mean what I never said, and I'm called a liar again...
I am not suggesting apple isn;t a huge market to target. Of course they are. But to put things into perspective, they are by far not the only game in town. Though, they are currently, likely the most organized as a platform, which makes it more attractive, not based on it's numbers alone.
Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective:
Say you are contracted to develop a web site to sell buggy whips (widgets are so last year
You agree to a base price for your work and an additional percentage for each buggy whip sold through the site.
You choose Flash as the best tool for this particular job (it could be HTML5, hieroglyphics... anything).
You do a bang-up job, deliver a great site, on time, on budget... and pocket a nice little profit for your work.
You sit back and wait for your annuity (percent of each buggy whip sold through the site) to just start rolling in... Yeah, Katie bar the door!
How will customers find the site, so your "creation" can convince them they need to buy lotsa' buggy whips?
Why, they'll google it (or bing it, or yahoo it)!
That's the great thing about search engines.... they scour the web and present you with an aggregate list of references-- buggy whip sites, for our purposes.
Search Engines are Aggregators!
Great, right?
Mas o menos!
Say your competitors have bought up all the relevant key words for all the major search engines! Your creative web site does not even appear in the first page of the Aggregator listings!
Despite yours being the "best buggy whip site" out there, 90% of the Aggregator (Search Engine) users will never find your site.
So, to help drive traffic, you buy click-thru ads on other sites.
What's the point?
Here's the point... many of the apps on the iPhone (I cant speak for other phones) are Aggregators... restaurants, nearby movie theaters, tickets, recipes, etc. Except these iPhone Aggregators offer additional information, description, pictures, AV, etc. as part of the Aggregation... (no Flash, though). So you can browse, compare shop, without ever leaving the app. Once a user decides, only then (and not always) does he visit the web site. But, say, the Non-Flash content within the Aggregator App, convinces the buyer to click through to your web site. Even then, he will not be able to view your very creative and convincing presentation.
Now, here we have a 100% qualified customer-- with money to spend and a desire to buy!
But that customer cannot find your web site through the Aggregator Search Engines or Aggregator Apps on their smart phones...
Either way, you're whipped!
Steve Jobs made the point during his iAd presentation that mobile users surf the web differently than other users... essentially saying that instead of using the browser and search engines, there're apps for that!
That is largely true for me and my family! IMO, it is one of the biggest benefits of the iPhone, iPad and similar devices: the ability to get in quickly, get it done, then get out!
that still doesn't tell me there are more iphone users specifically to target, just that iphone users surf more. Certainly a valuable stat, (I seem to need to disclaimer anything that may be taken somewhat negative...) There are still, only one pair of eyes on that screen
The point is that you use the data that's relevant.
If you're a web site developer looking for hits, which platform makes the most sense to you? Obviously, the one that's generating the most hits. A smart phone that's sitting in a drawer or not accessing the web isn't useful.
The only eyeballs that count are those that are actively searching the web - and the iPhone family has the largest proportion - by far.
Which presumably explains why major developers are rushing to use html 5 - Youtube, Hulu, CBS, ABC, NYT, WSJ, etc.
my posts are "worthless". Well. According to you anyway.
And,you need to learn to stop just googling for numbers or links that imply or appear to support your position.
Iphones, do NOT have 75% of ALL MOBILE INTERNET ACCESS.
That, is a bald faced lie.
Currently, we are aware that iphones, account for just over 50% of internet requests.
I know Americans feel they're the only country in the world, but, there -is- a world market out there too.
Now again, before you get too too excited, nowhere did I say the iphone wasn't a huge market not to be very much taken seriously in an ad campaign strategy.
That's some worldwide numbers for you. Note androids growth in the past year. Also note, that only targeting iphone users, cuts out pretty half your audience.
Thank you for the present!
For all these percent usage numbers you need to take into consideration:
--the breadth of the survey (US or International)
--the period of time of the measurement
--the point in time (new products, EOL, etc.)
--product promotions (BOGO. etc.)
--the definition of terms, e.g. what is a smart phone?
--what non-phone devices are included
--the methodology used to gather raw numbers and to filter/extrapolate percentages
--the subjectivity of the source, e.g. AdMob is being bought by Google
You're preaching to the converted. You're last post sounded like a commercial for apple's eco system. You don't need to reiterate. It seems I have to disclaimer the hell out of my comments, my opinions are not anti apple, down on iphone, whatsoever. I'm a realist, and I'm keenly aware of what's going on. I see a number of people, who seem anxious to inflate number and share when it has something to do with their favorite thing, but scream right away should someone project something as very likely in the near future.
Hypocritical I think really.
No, I stand by what I said. This war, and by war I'm not nessecarily referring to apple and flash at all really, this war is just starting to get lit. There is no question apple has the wind in it's sails. And I expect they will for some time, they have laid the track for a permanent place in the scheme of things. Well, as permanent as they could be in the tech world
But let's talk, in 3 years.
btw check out the front page news on this site today, android phones now outselling iphones in the US?
I know, it's a simple headline. But I'm telling you, the fight, is just beginning.
Remember when Microsoft got the blue screen of death in the middle of a demo, and we all woke up the next day to a world in which they had only a 5% market share and Apple had 92%?
It's like that.
that was actually pretty funny.
It isn't like it's never happened to anyone else either.
I mean HP Slate, the device Ballmar had in his hands with the Twilight image of the hands holding 'apple' on it. Courier was a just animation of vapourware that MS said was coming (eventually) in hopes that no one would buy the iPad. Has that type of marketing ever worked?
OMG, why did I click on his kid's post? But glad I did, as it's yet another strike against the bloat of Flash and ineptitude of Adobe.
Now he's implying that Canvas is HTML5 when it's clearly just one aspect of it that is known to be processor intensive. HTML5 has been used since the first iPhone and is used throughout all modern mobile OS browsers.
He probably doesn't even realize the asinine stance of comparing CPU intensive Canvas 3D animations in HTML5 with the Flash video issue. He also probably doesn't even notice the elephant in the room, that Adobe can't even get video to play on Cortex-A8 @ 1GHz w/512MB RAM Nexus One yet HTML5 video plays great on mobiles.
His blinders surely didn't let him see that while the 1st Canvas demo (which pushes my brand new MBP in Safari to use 100%/200% CPU) doesn't crash my iPhone with a 600MHz CPU or the guy's iPad, yet the Nexus One can't even play video or simply crashes altogether.
The last issue — I'm not sure if the Elmer FUD in the video is really good at spreading lies or just a complete buffoon — is his choosing mostly Canvas demos that specifically need a mouse pointer for input, not a touchscreen. We're not going to see this single aspect of HTML5 being used for mobiles until it's much more mature, but HTMl5 for video, the most common use of Flash today, will take over as well as many other aspects of HTML5.
You all can try these demos yourself. Here's the first one...
PS: You can also see how much CPU heavy Flash is by installing the latest Beta on your desktop OS and then switching between YouTube's Flash and HTML5 options.
Ok, you need to calm down. Canvas is one of the more important aspects that is touted as on huge reason to kill flash. My point here is that none of this is all totally worked out yet. There are some aspects that work great, and many not. It isn't even standard yet, and won't be for a couple years! Running back and forth that flash isn't ready but html5 is, is simply not understanding things at all. I know full well html5 will become a standard and will mean some great changes for everything. It's rather obvious!
None of it is totally ready for prime time. But they will be soon, and then, we'll see how flash will stand up and stay relevant, or not.
But you missed my main point, of posting that video. I recognize, that he video, and other of the ones I know of that shows html5 performing badly, isn't going to amount to anything. Nor the pile of links, that graph performance of html5 vs flash video, with or without acceleration.
I don't think someone on a forum posting incorrect links to a joojoo player running desktop versions of an outdated flash player, is gonna prove anything, anymore than the youtube video I posted.
And that, if you missed it, was the point. It doesn't mean anything. The next year or two, will mean something, which is what I've been saying, the whole time.
All I have is my opinion, my projections, but, I don't profess to tell the future. That's something that can't be won on an internet forum.
the crazy navbar/banners take up too much space & they pop up just at the exact momments when the user wants to use that space as a control surface for the webpage but can't cuz these giant navbars (with no click thru behavior) are blocking the needed target.
And as for the large typesize in his comment ...
GENIUS!
what better way to make the point about inappropriately dimensions!!
Remember when Microsoft got the blue screen of death in the middle of a demo, and we all woke up the next day to a world in which they had only a 5% market share and Apple had 92%?
It's like that.
The difference, of course, is that for Microsoft it happened at a live demo (Apple had that happen once, as well).
The Android failure was at a private meeting where they had no reason to show it. They could easily have filmed a working demo - but apparently were unable to get it to work long enough to show the demo. Or maybe the battery ran out before they could repeat the demo.
Ok, you need to calm down. Canvas is one of the more important aspects that is touted as on huge reason to kill flash. My point here is that none of this is all totally worked out yet. There are some aspects that work great, and many not. It isn't even standard yet, and won't be for a couple years! Running back and forth that flash isn't ready but html5 is, is simply not understanding things at all. I know full well html5 will become a standard and will mean some great changes for everything. It's rather obvious!
None of it is totally ready for prime time. But they will be soon, and then, we'll see how flash will stand up and stay relevant, or not.
But you missed my main point, of posting that video. I recognize, that he video, and other of the ones I know of that shows html5 performing badly, isn't going to amount to anything. Nor the pile of links, that graph performance of html5 vs flash video, with or without acceleration.
I don't think someone on a forum posting incorrect links too joojoo player running desktop versions of an outdated flash player, is gonna prove anything, anymore than the youtube video I posted.
And that, if you missed it, was the point. It doesn't mean anything. The next year or two, will mean something, which is what I've been saying, the whole time.
All I have is my opinion, my projections, but, I don't profess to tell the future. That's something that can't be won on an internet forum.
1) You came to this forum insulting people with dickish, passive-agressive comment. You're not a victim.
2) Canvas is a single part of HTML5, it's very new and it's very complex so to show a video of Canvas apps designed for much more powerful HW and a mouse pointer and then imply that HTML5 as a whole doesn't work is a lie.
3) Many HTML5 elements and JS frameworks are considerably more efficient than Flash and are in use on every modern OS browser.
4) HTML5 is alive and well but you still claim that because it's not a standard that it's not in use. I know you know better so you are just FUDing around. How many years were 802.11n routers on the market before the final drafts was ratified? And that's for HW no just SW!
5) If you have a point why don't you show us...
Evidence that HTML5 video tag is less efficent than Flash for playing video.
Evidence that a Flash plugin for any platform doesn't require additional CPU cycles and therefore doesn't adversely affect the battery.
Explain why in May 2010 Flash for Android, WinMo, Symbian, WebOS, et cetera isn't available already if it's been available for iPhone OS.
Give us some proof that Flash is great for a mobile OS on mobile HW.
The bottom line is Adobe dropped the ball. Flash is shit for mobiles and more efficient, open standards are now in use across all modern mobile OSes with WebKit.
They've also lost (I don't mean will lose, but have lost) their stranglehold on Flash being the ideal way to stream video in the future. Mobile OSes aren't ideal and they are the area of computing that is growing fastest. How long before smartphones outsell the number of PCs each quarter? Do you really think that Flash will be the go to standard for video then?
1) You came to this forum insulting people with dickish, passive-agressive comment. You're not a victim.
to the contrary, I merely returned what was given. I still haven't heard back where I "lied". Boohoo
2) Canvas is a single part of HTML5, it's very new and it's very complex so to show a video of Canvas apps designed for much more powerful HW and a mouse pointer and then imply that HTML5 as a whole doesn't work is a lie.
Oh really. So all this screaming about how canvas was gonna do all the things flash could, and kill it, well, uh oh, it doesn't work so good yet. Gee. That was my point, not that html5 -as a whole- doesn't work. Don't put words in my mouth.
3) Many HTML5 elements and JS frameworks are considerably more efficient than Flash and are in use on every modern OS browser.
And many things in flash are more efficient. This is a red herring. This has been shown, debated, argued, to death. This is why, I have said oh about 100 times now, that both technologies, will have their place. Each technology can do something better than the other, and you use what is best for a particular project. But as a web developer, and effective one, you would know this, not throw out generalizations, that are half true. Playing that game, is useless.
4) HTML5 is alive and well but you still claim that because it's not a standard that it's not in use. I know you know better so you are just FUDing around. How many years were 802.11n routers on the market before the final drafts was ratified? And that's for HW no just SW!
You really want it to be, I can tell. Html5, is starting, to make it's way into projects, mostly at a surface level. All those big company announcements, mainly delivering video. I don't see too many companies totally replacing their flash sites with html5 en masse. Do you?
5) If you have a point why don't you show us...
Evidence that HTML5 video tag is less efficent than Flash for playing video.
[B]google it. There is plenty of evidence that flash with hardware acceleration, is on par with html5. If you're honest that is. It's now become more of an accessibly issue. Companies want their videos accessible by all computers, devices, as well as, the i.. devices. html5 accomplishes this. Not because they're afraid of running your fans higher...[let's be frank here/B]
Evidence that a Flash plugin for any platform doesn't require additional CPU cycles and therefore doesn't adversely affect the battery.
I've already given what I know. It isn't apparently good enough, and will only be met with more googled links whether they have merit or not, to counter it. I can tell you, I have seen it, and I know of developers in the private beta. Until adobe makes the next move, I'm sorry that's all I have for now. So beat your chest all you like. Enjoy while you can. I'll be back to smirk if it turns out well, trust me
Explain why in May 2010 Flash for Android, WinMo, Symbian, WebOS, et cetera isn't available already if it's been available for iPhone OS.
This is a ridiculous question. First of all, it isn't available for iphone. FLASH LITE was. You need to get the storey straight. The new player for mobile, is in private beta, and you already know this. So you can use this to your advantage for now, until adobe, has the opportunity, to prove otherwise.
Give us some proof that Flash is great for a mobile OS on mobile HW.
you've pretty much asked this question 3 times over. You know damn well Adobe is currently in beta right now. All there is currently, are the many developers who have been shown the progress, like myself, and the few online previews. You simply are going to have to wait.
The bottom line is Adobe dropped the ball. Flash is shit for mobiles and more efficient, open standards are now in use across all modern mobile OSes with WebKit.
They've also lost (I don't mean will lose, but have lost) their stranglehold on Flash being the ideal way to stream video in the future. Mobile OSes aren't ideal and they are the area of computing that is growing fastest. How long before smartphones outsell the number of PCs each quarter? Do you really think that Flash will be the go to standard for video then?
Shall I now demand proof that html5 canvas will be fixed? I mean that was one of the big things touted to me as a sure fire flash killer! I doubt html5 video delivery will kill flash. But Html5 being able, to do -all- the things flash can, will. But as a developer, I have NOT seen evidence of this. Only buggy demos.
The difference, of course, is that for Microsoft it happened at a live demo (Apple had that happen once, as well).
The Android failure was at a private meeting where they had no reason to show it. They could easily have filmed a working demo - but apparently were unable to get it to work long enough to show the demo. Or maybe the battery ran out before they could repeat the demo.
Honestly I don't see how that has any bearing on it at all. Betas fail at demos, live, closed, what have you.
I have been trying to make the point many times here, that spending our time playing google link war with "evidence" that vapourware is AFOOT! is kind of a waste of time.
Shall I now demand proof that html5 canvas will be fixed? I mean that was one of the big things touted to me as a sure fire flash killer! I doubt html5 video delivery will kill flash. But Html5 being able, to do -all- the things flash can, will. But as a developer, I have NOT seen evidence of this. Only buggy demos.
So let's see proof.
1) Learn to correctly quote a reply. Internet forums aren't going away.
2) I've pointed out where you've lied at every turn, you just choose to ignore the facts.
3) Canvas has the potential to do many interactive animations Flash does. I don't recall anyon on this site saying that THIS ONE ASPECT of HTML5 is ready.
4) You continually have ignored the whole of HTML5 and limitations of Flash for mobiles.
5) You keep saying how great it is, then say it's a Beta when it's pointed out where it's failing while also comparing a private Beta to a open standard draft. Quite different things.
6) You ask for proof while insulting people that use Google to link you to that proof and you don't think that is trollish behavior? So if we can't link you to all the evidence that Flash is being weeded out in favour of more efficient options then what is there to show you. Do you really think Scribd, Google, Vimeo, Apple and MS are all lying about their plans for HTML5?
7) It's all downhill for Flash as the future of streaming video. There is simply no argument within the physics of this universe that make plug-in more efficient than the browser in runs in.
1) Learn to correctly quote a reply. Internet forums aren't going away.
2) I've pointed out where you've lied at every turn, you just choose to ignore the facts.
3) Canvas has the potential to do many interactive animations Flash does. I don't recall anyon on this site saying that THIS ONE ASPECT of HTML5 is ready.
4) You continually have ignored the whole of HTML5 and limitations of Flash for mobiles.
5) You keep saying how great it is, then say it's a Beta when it's pointed out where it's failing while also comparing a private Beta to a open standard draft. Quite different things.
6) You ask for proof while insulting people that use Google to link you to that proof and you don't think that is trollish behavior? So if we can't link you to all the evidence that Flash is being weeded out in favour of more efficient options then what is there to show you. Do you really think Scribd, Google, Vimeo, Apple and MS are all lying about their plans for HTML5?
7) It's all downhill for Flash as the future of streaming video. There is simply no argument within the physics of this universe that make plug-in more efficient than the browser in runs in.
I used this method of quoting in forums for years. It's in wide use elsewhere. Go have a look.
So you can better understand:
2:No you haven't. You said I lied, and you never responded directly to showing where. I'm still waiting. I've seen innuendo, googled links, and certainly plenty of conjecture, but I see very little in the way of "facts".
3: Canvas HAS THE POTENTIAL. Hmmm. This sounds vaguely familiar to the promises of adobe. Oh wait, I've actually seen flash player on a mobile device beat canvas like it was nothing. So you're willing to wait out the "potential" of canvas, with no real promises, but you are willing to take a few accounts of the flash beta doing something bad as pretty much slam dunk. Not biased in the least are we eh?
4:No I haven't, I'm well aware of "html5" -as a whole". I'm also well aware of flash's limitations on mobile, to the degree that I have personally tested, and seen first hand. Which apparently, is more than you seem to have.
5:ah. "open standard... DRAFT". So you've finally come around. If you've read my posts, you'll know that I have repeatedly said this isn't an html5 vs flash issue. Others like yourself try to make it one. I pointed out canvas, not because -I'm- comparing, but others have, and I'm using an analogy to prove a pont, which is apparently totally lost on you. So no, I am NOT comparing html5, open or draft, whatever pleases you, to flash. I see them as different technologies, and the smart web developer will know when to use each one to best accomplish the job. html5's enhanced capabilities as they become standards, will change those decisions long term.
6: I've pointed out what I have personally seen. I have been truthful in what I personally saw, what -I- saw, ran great. I don't know a whole lot more than that, I have no control over Adobe's engineers, and haven't been present at any of the demos where it failed. So, I really, don't know WHAT, you are asking here. It is, in fact BETA. Beta's as every company knows, including apple it seems, are well aware of failings during beta. I don't know why you are so surprised...
7: What exactly, is your argument here? And, who, in particular, are you arguing with on this? You did read the part where I have said that choosing html5 video, is becoming an issue of accessibility right? Except where the capabilities of flash video are required, I see flash video as being used less as well. I know my shop will be using it less, this is well known. So, what's your point? You're right? Or something?
You're preaching to the converted. You're last post sounded like a commercial for apple's eco system. You don't need to reiterate. It seems I have to disclaimer the hell out of my comments, my opinions are not anti apple, down on iphone, whatsoever. I'm a realist, and I'm keenly aware of what's going on. I see a number of people, who seem anxious to inflate number and share when it has something to do with their favorite thing, but scream right away should someone project something as very likely in the near future.
Hypocritical I think really.
No, I stand by what I said. This war, and by war I'm not nessecarily referring to apple and flash at all really, this war is just starting to get lit. There is no question apple has the wind in it's sails. And I expect they will for some time, they have laid the track for a permanent place in the scheme of things. Well, as permanent as they could be in the tech world
But let's talk, in 3 years.
btw check out the front page news on this site today, android phones now outselling iphones in the US?
I know, it's a simple headline. But I'm telling you, the fight, is just beginning.
Ya' know I came late to this thread and you, a recent member, were in a pissing contest with several long-time members whose track records are known and respected, here.
I tried to understand your positions... But I am frustrated. You claim to be pro-Apple, but the gist of all your your posts in anti-Apple.
I posted a comment that indicates why I, or anyone, should read various web stats with skepticism... Whether they support or challenge your beliefs.
Rather than address the issue in question, you said my post "sounded like a commercial for the Apple ecosystem."
I resent that characterization, and would appreciate it if you give my posts/opinions the same attention and respect that you expect/demand others to give yours.
Ya' know I came late to this thread and you, a recent member, were in a pissing contest with several long-time members whose track records are known and respected, here.
I tried to understand your positions... But I am frustrated. You claim to be pro-Apple, but the gist of all your your posts in anti-Apple.
I posted a comment that indicates why I, or anyone, should read various web stats with skepticism... Whether they support or challenge your beliefs.
Rather than address the issue in question, you said my post "sounded like a commercial for the Apple ecosystem."
I resent that characterization, and would appreciate it if you give my posts/opinions the same attention and respect that you expect/demand others to give yours.
... Otherwise, why bother?
.
ok, Wow. I think you took that a little too personally. It did sound, like you were trying to sell me on it. So, hence, a bit like a commercial. I'm sorry if that offended you. I merely said you are preaching, to the converted. You don't need, to sell me on the iphone platform! I'm already sold! (I bought 2 iphones!)
Comments
The future will be focused on devices with limited resources and limited power supply. Flash is not the right tool for these types of devices.
Well that's a rather narrow view isn't it? One can take any sampling, set of numbers, and spin anyway they like.
Oh, only mobile sites, and apps! Like that isn't skewing things just a wee bit now isn't it. Why don't you go a step further, and say only apps! Then you can screech 100%!! We are the champions!
And then you go off calling my posts "worthless".
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.
...Huh?
Is that like a Painter that hates paint?
that still doesn't tell me there are more iphone users specifically to target, just that iphone users surf more. Certainly a valuable stat, (I seem to need to disclaimer anything that may be taken somewhat negative...) There are still, only one pair of eyes on that screen
you are talking about apps. I wasn't talking about targeting users with apps.
I'm talking about targeting the most users with a website, or ad campaign. Apps, are but one method of delivery, albeit a good one.
Make no mistake, before my statements once again get twisted and spit back out to mean what I never said, and I'm called a liar again...
I am not suggesting apple isn;t a huge market to target. Of course they are. But to put things into perspective, they are by far not the only game in town. Though, they are currently, likely the most organized as a platform, which makes it more attractive, not based on it's numbers alone.
Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective:
Say you are contracted to develop a web site to sell buggy whips (widgets are so last year
You agree to a base price for your work and an additional percentage for each buggy whip sold through the site.
You choose Flash as the best tool for this particular job (it could be HTML5, hieroglyphics... anything).
You do a bang-up job, deliver a great site, on time, on budget... and pocket a nice little profit for your work.
You sit back and wait for your annuity (percent of each buggy whip sold through the site) to just start rolling in... Yeah, Katie bar the door!
How will customers find the site, so your "creation" can convince them they need to buy lotsa' buggy whips?
Why, they'll google it (or bing it, or yahoo it)!
That's the great thing about search engines.... they scour the web and present you with an aggregate list of references-- buggy whip sites, for our purposes.
Search Engines are Aggregators!
Great, right?
Mas o menos!
Say your competitors have bought up all the relevant key words for all the major search engines! Your creative web site does not even appear in the first page of the Aggregator listings!
Despite yours being the "best buggy whip site" out there, 90% of the Aggregator (Search Engine) users will never find your site.
So, to help drive traffic, you buy click-thru ads on other sites.
What's the point?
Here's the point... many of the apps on the iPhone (I cant speak for other phones) are Aggregators... restaurants, nearby movie theaters, tickets, recipes, etc. Except these iPhone Aggregators offer additional information, description, pictures, AV, etc. as part of the Aggregation... (no Flash, though). So you can browse, compare shop, without ever leaving the app. Once a user decides, only then (and not always) does he visit the web site. But, say, the Non-Flash content within the Aggregator App, convinces the buyer to click through to your web site. Even then, he will not be able to view your very creative and convincing presentation.
Now, here we have a 100% qualified customer-- with money to spend and a desire to buy!
But that customer cannot find your web site through the Aggregator Search Engines or Aggregator Apps on their smart phones...
Either way, you're whipped!
Steve Jobs made the point during his iAd presentation that mobile users surf the web differently than other users... essentially saying that instead of using the browser and search engines, there're apps for that!
That is largely true for me and my family! IMO, it is one of the biggest benefits of the iPhone, iPad and similar devices: the ability to get in quickly, get it done, then get out!
.
that still doesn't tell me there are more iphone users specifically to target, just that iphone users surf more. Certainly a valuable stat, (I seem to need to disclaimer anything that may be taken somewhat negative...) There are still, only one pair of eyes on that screen
The point is that you use the data that's relevant.
If you're a web site developer looking for hits, which platform makes the most sense to you? Obviously, the one that's generating the most hits. A smart phone that's sitting in a drawer or not accessing the web isn't useful.
The only eyeballs that count are those that are actively searching the web - and the iPhone family has the largest proportion - by far.
Which presumably explains why major developers are rushing to use html 5 - Youtube, Hulu, CBS, ABC, NYT, WSJ, etc.
my posts are "worthless". Well. According to you anyway.
And,you need to learn to stop just googling for numbers or links that imply or appear to support your position.
Iphones, do NOT have 75% of ALL MOBILE INTERNET ACCESS.
That, is a bald faced lie.
Currently, we are aware that iphones, account for just over 50% of internet requests.
I know Americans feel they're the only country in the world, but, there -is- a world market out there too.
Now again, before you get too too excited, nowhere did I say the iphone wasn't a huge market not to be very much taken seriously in an ad campaign strategy.
Here. a present for you. http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/25/adm...phone-traffic/
That's some worldwide numbers for you. Note androids growth in the past year. Also note, that only targeting iphone users, cuts out pretty half your audience.
Thank you for the present!
For all these percent usage numbers you need to take into consideration:
--the breadth of the survey (US or International)
--the period of time of the measurement
--the point in time (new products, EOL, etc.)
--product promotions (BOGO. etc.)
--the definition of terms, e.g. what is a smart phone?
--what non-phone devices are included
--the methodology used to gather raw numbers and to filter/extrapolate percentages
--the subjectivity of the source, e.g. AdMob is being bought by Google
Now, I have a present for you:
Here is the Pixar Web page for Toy story 3
http://disney.go.com/toystory/
Via Gruber, here's how the same site looks on an iPad:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gruber/4594658152/
... some are some, and some are not!
.
I just pray that the name is a code name, and not the actual release name.
Otherwise it sounds like the latest STD.
Thank you for the present!
For all these percent usage numbers you need to take into consideration:
--the breadth of the survey (US or International)
--the period of time of the measurement
--the point in time (new products, EOL, etc.)
--product promotions (BOGO. etc.)
--the definition of terms, e.g. what is a smart phone?
--what non-phone devices are included
--the methodology used to gather raw numbers and to filter/extrapolate percentages
--the subjectivity of the source, e.g. AdMob is being bought by Google
Now, I have a present for you:
Here is the Pixar Web page for Toy story 3
http://disney.go.com/toystory/
Via Gruber, here's how the same site looks on an iPad:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gruber/4594658152/
... some are some, and some are not!
.
actually, the present was for the other guy
You're preaching to the converted. You're last post sounded like a commercial for apple's eco system. You don't need to reiterate. It seems I have to disclaimer the hell out of my comments, my opinions are not anti apple, down on iphone, whatsoever. I'm a realist, and I'm keenly aware of what's going on. I see a number of people, who seem anxious to inflate number and share when it has something to do with their favorite thing, but scream right away should someone project something as very likely in the near future.
Hypocritical I think really.
No, I stand by what I said. This war, and by war I'm not nessecarily referring to apple and flash at all really, this war is just starting to get lit. There is no question apple has the wind in it's sails. And I expect they will for some time, they have laid the track for a permanent place in the scheme of things. Well, as permanent as they could be in the tech world
But let's talk, in 3 years.
btw check out the front page news on this site today, android phones now outselling iphones in the US?
I know, it's a simple headline. But I'm telling you, the fight, is just beginning.
Remember when Microsoft got the blue screen of death in the middle of a demo, and we all woke up the next day to a world in which they had only a 5% market share and Apple had 92%?
It's like that.
that was actually pretty funny.
It isn't like it's never happened to anyone else either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsKKQ...ayer_embedded#!
Now I'll likely go hell for this one. Disclaimer: Just having a little fun here guys.
I mean HP Slate, the device Ballmar had in his hands with the Twilight image of the hands holding 'apple' on it. Courier was a just animation of vapourware that MS said was coming (eventually) in hopes that no one would buy the iPad. Has that type of marketing ever worked?
OMG, why did I click on his kid's post? But glad I did, as it's yet another strike against the bloat of Flash and ineptitude of Adobe.
Now he's implying that Canvas is HTML5 when it's clearly just one aspect of it that is known to be processor intensive. HTML5 has been used since the first iPhone and is used throughout all modern mobile OS browsers.
He probably doesn't even realize the asinine stance of comparing CPU intensive Canvas 3D animations in HTML5 with the Flash video issue. He also probably doesn't even notice the elephant in the room, that Adobe can't even get video to play on Cortex-A8 @ 1GHz w/512MB RAM Nexus One yet HTML5 video plays great on mobiles.
His blinders surely didn't let him see that while the 1st Canvas demo (which pushes my brand new MBP in Safari to use 100%/200% CPU) doesn't crash my iPhone with a 600MHz CPU or the guy's iPad, yet the Nexus One can't even play video or simply crashes altogether.
The last issue — I'm not sure if the Elmer FUD in the video is really good at spreading lies or just a complete buffoon — is his choosing mostly Canvas demos that specifically need a mouse pointer for input, not a touchscreen. We're not going to see this single aspect of HTML5 being used for mobiles until it's much more mature, but HTMl5 for video, the most common use of Flash today, will take over as well as many other aspects of HTML5.
You all can try these demos yourself. Here's the first one... PS: You can also see how much CPU heavy Flash is by installing the latest Beta on your desktop OS and then switching between YouTube's Flash and HTML5 options.
I just saw this.
Ok, you need to calm down. Canvas is one of the more important aspects that is touted as on huge reason to kill flash. My point here is that none of this is all totally worked out yet. There are some aspects that work great, and many not. It isn't even standard yet, and won't be for a couple years! Running back and forth that flash isn't ready but html5 is, is simply not understanding things at all. I know full well html5 will become a standard and will mean some great changes for everything. It's rather obvious!
None of it is totally ready for prime time. But they will be soon, and then, we'll see how flash will stand up and stay relevant, or not.
But you missed my main point, of posting that video. I recognize, that he video, and other of the ones I know of that shows html5 performing badly, isn't going to amount to anything. Nor the pile of links, that graph performance of html5 vs flash video, with or without acceleration.
I don't think someone on a forum posting incorrect links to a joojoo player running desktop versions of an outdated flash player, is gonna prove anything, anymore than the youtube video I posted.
And that, if you missed it, was the point. It doesn't mean anything. The next year or two, will mean something, which is what I've been saying, the whole time.
All I have is my opinion, my projections, but, I don't profess to tell the future. That's something that can't be won on an internet forum.
the complant is entirely well-founded ...
the crazy navbar/banners take up too much space & they pop up just at the exact momments when the user wants to use that space as a control surface for the webpage but can't cuz these giant navbars (with no click thru behavior) are blocking the needed target.
And as for the large typesize in his comment ...
GENIUS!
what better way to make the point about inappropriately dimensions!!
LUV IT.
Remember when Microsoft got the blue screen of death in the middle of a demo, and we all woke up the next day to a world in which they had only a 5% market share and Apple had 92%?
It's like that.
The difference, of course, is that for Microsoft it happened at a live demo (Apple had that happen once, as well).
The Android failure was at a private meeting where they had no reason to show it. They could easily have filmed a working demo - but apparently were unable to get it to work long enough to show the demo. Or maybe the battery ran out before they could repeat the demo.
I just saw this.
Ok, you need to calm down. Canvas is one of the more important aspects that is touted as on huge reason to kill flash. My point here is that none of this is all totally worked out yet. There are some aspects that work great, and many not. It isn't even standard yet, and won't be for a couple years! Running back and forth that flash isn't ready but html5 is, is simply not understanding things at all. I know full well html5 will become a standard and will mean some great changes for everything. It's rather obvious!
None of it is totally ready for prime time. But they will be soon, and then, we'll see how flash will stand up and stay relevant, or not.
But you missed my main point, of posting that video. I recognize, that he video, and other of the ones I know of that shows html5 performing badly, isn't going to amount to anything. Nor the pile of links, that graph performance of html5 vs flash video, with or without acceleration.
I don't think someone on a forum posting incorrect links too joojoo player running desktop versions of an outdated flash player, is gonna prove anything, anymore than the youtube video I posted.
And that, if you missed it, was the point. It doesn't mean anything. The next year or two, will mean something, which is what I've been saying, the whole time.
All I have is my opinion, my projections, but, I don't profess to tell the future. That's something that can't be won on an internet forum.
1) You came to this forum insulting people with dickish, passive-agressive comment. You're not a victim.
2) Canvas is a single part of HTML5, it's very new and it's very complex so to show a video of Canvas apps designed for much more powerful HW and a mouse pointer and then imply that HTML5 as a whole doesn't work is a lie.
3) Many HTML5 elements and JS frameworks are considerably more efficient than Flash and are in use on every modern OS browser.
4) HTML5 is alive and well but you still claim that because it's not a standard that it's not in use. I know you know better so you are just FUDing around. How many years were 802.11n routers on the market before the final drafts was ratified? And that's for HW no just SW!
5) If you have a point why don't you show us...
- Evidence that HTML5 video tag is less efficent than Flash for playing video.
- Evidence that a Flash plugin for any platform doesn't require additional CPU cycles and therefore doesn't adversely affect the battery.
- Explain why in May 2010 Flash for Android, WinMo, Symbian, WebOS, et cetera isn't available already if it's been available for iPhone OS.
- Give us some proof that Flash is great for a mobile OS on mobile HW.
The bottom line is Adobe dropped the ball. Flash is shit for mobiles and more efficient, open standards are now in use across all modern mobile OSes with WebKit.They've also lost (I don't mean will lose, but have lost) their stranglehold on Flash being the ideal way to stream video in the future. Mobile OSes aren't ideal and they are the area of computing that is growing fastest. How long before smartphones outsell the number of PCs each quarter? Do you really think that Flash will be the go to standard for video then?
1) You came to this forum insulting people with dickish, passive-agressive comment. You're not a victim.
to the contrary, I merely returned what was given. I still haven't heard back where I "lied". Boohoo
2) Canvas is a single part of HTML5, it's very new and it's very complex so to show a video of Canvas apps designed for much more powerful HW and a mouse pointer and then imply that HTML5 as a whole doesn't work is a lie.
Oh really. So all this screaming about how canvas was gonna do all the things flash could, and kill it, well, uh oh, it doesn't work so good yet. Gee. That was my point, not that html5 -as a whole- doesn't work. Don't put words in my mouth.
3) Many HTML5 elements and JS frameworks are considerably more efficient than Flash and are in use on every modern OS browser.
And many things in flash are more efficient. This is a red herring. This has been shown, debated, argued, to death. This is why, I have said oh about 100 times now, that both technologies, will have their place. Each technology can do something better than the other, and you use what is best for a particular project. But as a web developer, and effective one, you would know this, not throw out generalizations, that are half true. Playing that game, is useless.
4) HTML5 is alive and well but you still claim that because it's not a standard that it's not in use. I know you know better so you are just FUDing around. How many years were 802.11n routers on the market before the final drafts was ratified? And that's for HW no just SW!
You really want it to be, I can tell. Html5, is starting, to make it's way into projects, mostly at a surface level. All those big company announcements, mainly delivering video. I don't see too many companies totally replacing their flash sites with html5 en masse. Do you?
5) If you have a point why don't you show us...
- Evidence that HTML5 video tag is less efficent than Flash for playing video.
- Evidence that a Flash plugin for any platform doesn't require additional CPU cycles and therefore doesn't adversely affect the battery.
I'll be back to smirk if it turns out well, trust me 
- Explain why in May 2010 Flash for Android, WinMo, Symbian, WebOS, et cetera isn't available already if it's been available for iPhone OS.
- Give us some proof that Flash is great for a mobile OS on mobile HW.
you've pretty much asked this question 3 times over. You know damn well Adobe is currently in beta right now. All there is currently, are the many developers who have been shown the progress, like myself, and the few online previews. You simply are going to have to wait.[B]google it. There is plenty of evidence that flash with hardware acceleration, is on par with html5. If you're honest that is. It's now become more of an accessibly issue. Companies want their videos accessible by all computers, devices, as well as, the i.. devices. html5 accomplishes this. Not because they're afraid of running your fans higher...[let's be frank here/B]
I've already given what I know. It isn't apparently good enough, and will only be met with more googled links whether they have merit or not, to counter it. I can tell you, I have seen it, and I know of developers in the private beta. Until adobe makes the next move, I'm sorry that's all I have for now. So beat your chest all you like. Enjoy while you can.
This is a ridiculous question. First of all, it isn't available for iphone. FLASH LITE was. You need to get the storey straight. The new player for mobile, is in private beta, and you already know this. So you can use this to your advantage for now, until adobe, has the opportunity, to prove otherwise.
The bottom line is Adobe dropped the ball. Flash is shit for mobiles and more efficient, open standards are now in use across all modern mobile OSes with WebKit.
They've also lost (I don't mean will lose, but have lost) their stranglehold on Flash being the ideal way to stream video in the future. Mobile OSes aren't ideal and they are the area of computing that is growing fastest. How long before smartphones outsell the number of PCs each quarter? Do you really think that Flash will be the go to standard for video then?
Shall I now demand proof that html5 canvas will be fixed? I mean that was one of the big things touted to me as a sure fire flash killer! I doubt html5 video delivery will kill flash. But Html5 being able, to do -all- the things flash can, will. But as a developer, I have NOT seen evidence of this. Only buggy demos.
So let's see proof.
The difference, of course, is that for Microsoft it happened at a live demo (Apple had that happen once, as well).
The Android failure was at a private meeting where they had no reason to show it. They could easily have filmed a working demo - but apparently were unable to get it to work long enough to show the demo. Or maybe the battery ran out before they could repeat the demo.
Honestly I don't see how that has any bearing on it at all. Betas fail at demos, live, closed, what have you.
I have been trying to make the point many times here, that spending our time playing google link war with "evidence" that vapourware is AFOOT! is kind of a waste of time.
Shall I now demand proof that html5 canvas will be fixed? I mean that was one of the big things touted to me as a sure fire flash killer! I doubt html5 video delivery will kill flash. But Html5 being able, to do -all- the things flash can, will. But as a developer, I have NOT seen evidence of this. Only buggy demos.
So let's see proof.
1) Learn to correctly quote a reply. Internet forums aren't going away.
2) I've pointed out where you've lied at every turn, you just choose to ignore the facts.
3) Canvas has the potential to do many interactive animations Flash does. I don't recall anyon on this site saying that THIS ONE ASPECT of HTML5 is ready.
4) You continually have ignored the whole of HTML5 and limitations of Flash for mobiles.
5) You keep saying how great it is, then say it's a Beta when it's pointed out where it's failing while also comparing a private Beta to a open standard draft. Quite different things.
6) You ask for proof while insulting people that use Google to link you to that proof and you don't think that is trollish behavior? So if we can't link you to all the evidence that Flash is being weeded out in favour of more efficient options then what is there to show you. Do you really think Scribd, Google, Vimeo, Apple and MS are all lying about their plans for HTML5?
7) It's all downhill for Flash as the future of streaming video. There is simply no argument within the physics of this universe that make plug-in more efficient than the browser in runs in.
1) Learn to correctly quote a reply. Internet forums aren't going away.
2) I've pointed out where you've lied at every turn, you just choose to ignore the facts.
3) Canvas has the potential to do many interactive animations Flash does. I don't recall anyon on this site saying that THIS ONE ASPECT of HTML5 is ready.
4) You continually have ignored the whole of HTML5 and limitations of Flash for mobiles.
5) You keep saying how great it is, then say it's a Beta when it's pointed out where it's failing while also comparing a private Beta to a open standard draft. Quite different things.
6) You ask for proof while insulting people that use Google to link you to that proof and you don't think that is trollish behavior? So if we can't link you to all the evidence that Flash is being weeded out in favour of more efficient options then what is there to show you. Do you really think Scribd, Google, Vimeo, Apple and MS are all lying about their plans for HTML5?
7) It's all downhill for Flash as the future of streaming video. There is simply no argument within the physics of this universe that make plug-in more efficient than the browser in runs in.
I used this method of quoting in forums for years. It's in wide use elsewhere. Go have a look.
So you can better understand:
2:No you haven't. You said I lied, and you never responded directly to showing where. I'm still waiting. I've seen innuendo, googled links, and certainly plenty of conjecture, but I see very little in the way of "facts".
3: Canvas HAS THE POTENTIAL. Hmmm. This sounds vaguely familiar to the promises of adobe. Oh wait, I've actually seen flash player on a mobile device beat canvas like it was nothing. So you're willing to wait out the "potential" of canvas, with no real promises, but you are willing to take a few accounts of the flash beta doing something bad as pretty much slam dunk. Not biased in the least are we eh?
4:No I haven't, I'm well aware of "html5" -as a whole". I'm also well aware of flash's limitations on mobile, to the degree that I have personally tested, and seen first hand. Which apparently, is more than you seem to have.
5:ah. "open standard... DRAFT". So you've finally come around. If you've read my posts, you'll know that I have repeatedly said this isn't an html5 vs flash issue. Others like yourself try to make it one. I pointed out canvas, not because -I'm- comparing, but others have, and I'm using an analogy to prove a pont, which is apparently totally lost on you. So no, I am NOT comparing html5, open or draft, whatever pleases you, to flash. I see them as different technologies, and the smart web developer will know when to use each one to best accomplish the job. html5's enhanced capabilities as they become standards, will change those decisions long term.
6: I've pointed out what I have personally seen. I have been truthful in what I personally saw, what -I- saw, ran great. I don't know a whole lot more than that, I have no control over Adobe's engineers, and haven't been present at any of the demos where it failed. So, I really, don't know WHAT, you are asking here. It is, in fact BETA. Beta's as every company knows, including apple it seems, are well aware of failings during beta. I don't know why you are so surprised...
7: What exactly, is your argument here? And, who, in particular, are you arguing with on this? You did read the part where I have said that choosing html5 video, is becoming an issue of accessibility right? Except where the capabilities of flash video are required, I see flash video as being used less as well. I know my shop will be using it less, this is well known. So, what's your point? You're right? Or something?
Apple's Gianduia is not a Flash killer
actually, the present was for the other guy
You're preaching to the converted. You're last post sounded like a commercial for apple's eco system. You don't need to reiterate. It seems I have to disclaimer the hell out of my comments, my opinions are not anti apple, down on iphone, whatsoever. I'm a realist, and I'm keenly aware of what's going on. I see a number of people, who seem anxious to inflate number and share when it has something to do with their favorite thing, but scream right away should someone project something as very likely in the near future.
Hypocritical I think really.
No, I stand by what I said. This war, and by war I'm not nessecarily referring to apple and flash at all really, this war is just starting to get lit. There is no question apple has the wind in it's sails. And I expect they will for some time, they have laid the track for a permanent place in the scheme of things. Well, as permanent as they could be in the tech world
But let's talk, in 3 years.
btw check out the front page news on this site today, android phones now outselling iphones in the US?
I know, it's a simple headline. But I'm telling you, the fight, is just beginning.
Ya' know I came late to this thread and you, a recent member, were in a pissing contest with several long-time members whose track records are known and respected, here.
I tried to understand your positions... But I am frustrated. You claim to be pro-Apple, but the gist of all your your posts in anti-Apple.
I posted a comment that indicates why I, or anyone, should read various web stats with skepticism... Whether they support or challenge your beliefs.
Rather than address the issue in question, you said my post "sounded like a commercial for the Apple ecosystem."
I resent that characterization, and would appreciate it if you give my posts/opinions the same attention and respect that you expect/demand others to give yours.
... Otherwise, why bother?
.
Ya' know I came late to this thread and you, a recent member, were in a pissing contest with several long-time members whose track records are known and respected, here.
I tried to understand your positions... But I am frustrated. You claim to be pro-Apple, but the gist of all your your posts in anti-Apple.
I posted a comment that indicates why I, or anyone, should read various web stats with skepticism... Whether they support or challenge your beliefs.
Rather than address the issue in question, you said my post "sounded like a commercial for the Apple ecosystem."
I resent that characterization, and would appreciate it if you give my posts/opinions the same attention and respect that you expect/demand others to give yours.
... Otherwise, why bother?
.
ok, Wow. I think you took that a little too personally. It did sound, like you were trying to sell me on it. So, hence, a bit like a commercial. I'm sorry if that offended you. I merely said you are preaching, to the converted. You don't need, to sell me on the iphone platform! I'm already sold! (I bought 2 iphones!)
I hope this clarifies things for you.