I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.
My DREAM exactly!!! I 110% agree!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree
I'd like to see Apple make a Dreamweaver like HTML5 development program. It would make a nice addition to their pro apps suite.
Apple, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE make one! I 2,00000000000% agree!!!! The only Q I have, will it be possible to support multiple sites, like in Dreamweaver!? I want this badly!
Is there a Petition somewhere to Sign?! A Total WYSIWYG Orgy!!! Crazy Fast, stable! One 2 One Training = real support, not a $$$ gouging ala Adobe!!!!
Only thing, I hope that it's not to be tied into Mobile Me for Hosting! I like GoDaddy, cause it has 24/7 Live Phone Support! Great! Lucky for me, I only used it a few times, but it's very comforting to know that someone's there, vs. NOBODY at Mobile Me, except the Text Chat! But, what if one's Mac is having a bad day, or the connection is interrupted, one looses the Chat, and the whole thing has to start again! Even if they preserve the Comments from the previous Chat/Case ##, it's not as good as a Live Human!
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
While I'd like this, I think Adobe is in a much better position to do this. They could even further their sales of Flash Professional by having it output standards-based HTML/JS/CSS for newer browsers and Flash as a fallback for older browsers. After all, they make their money on the pro app sales, not the free plug-in.
If Apple makes a Dreamweaver Replacement, I'll be there in a heart beat, buying it! Only thing, I made my site with Dreamweaver 8, Templates and all.... I hope there would be a way of Apple's Dreamweaver Replacement to Import that Site, and Convert it, as needed to HTML 5, so one doesn't have to make the new one from scratch..., or Copy and Paste, one page at a Time! I just checked one of my pages, made with Dreamweaver 8, and in Code View it says:
I am so glad you guys brought this topic up! As I am about to get a New MBP 17, I don't know if I'd be able to Install and run Dreamweaver 8 on whatever the latest Snow Leopard will come with my New MBP, 10.6.4? I hope DW8 will install and run OK, as per a few posts I've seen online, but I won't know for sure, until I try to do that! I just want to avoid getting the latest Dreamweaver for $500 (?), knowing that I'd rather use Apple's Answer to that!!!
Flash is SLOW on my PB G4, 1.67, 1GB RAM, 10.4.11.... - YouTube is choppy, Vimeo is worse! TweetDeck (made with Adobe Air) - SLOW, and not stable!
I am glad that Steve Jobs has finally declared ••• ENOUGH!!! ••• in his Thoughts on Flash!!!!
My New MBP 17' will have i7 CPU in it, so it'll probably mask/compensate for Flash faults, but, I'd rather that CPU not "sweat it", and use its muscle on other stuff!!!
Thank you guys again for bring up this iWeb Pro, or whatever the Name Apple will pick!!! Then, imagine them Fully Integrating it with the rest of iLife etc!, so that it flies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Speed, Stability! A Total WYSIWYG Orgy!!!
So what he (and many others) have said (and been saying for a long time) about Flash makes no sense to you?
Just no clue what the hell the guy was talkin' about?
But NOW you think you get it?
Insightful.
Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
Apple, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE make one! I 2,00000000000% agree!!!! The only Q I have, will it be possible to support multiple sites, like in Dreamweaver!? I want this badly!
If you are talking about iWeb here, it is very simple to make it work with multiple sites already.
Although I think that all sounds lovely, Gianduia won't be a competitor with Flash until/unless it:
1. Has a name you can't misread (as Glandula)!
2. Has a name you can't mispronounce (I think it should be pronounced as if spelled Janduya)
3. Has at least one popular development environment which is firmly graphics (animation) first.
4. Does not rely on WebObjects (I realise that it's all ultimately CGI in interface, but it should support ad-hoc server-side Java, PHP, or whatever else).
Given all of the above, it's pretty clear that it is not (at this time) being positioned as a Flash replacement, but rather offering an alternative for existing Apple customers who have businesslike uses for Flash.
It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight). If these rich web interaction can be handled by efficient and easily coded JS then there is no need for Flash (or Silverlight) for that same task. It doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Flash can do to pick away at it's usage and become prominent. Just look at the number of sites moving to HTML5 for video over Flash, and that is the start.
Agreed, there are many places where Flash is used where it isn't needed; a news paper was whining because it uses Flash for slide show of pictures - something that could easily be done with the existing standards or using a decent CMS system with the code already provided. I've seen very few cases where Flash is absolutely needed - very few cases indeed. I can only hope that maybe the HTML5 exporting functionality by Flash CS5 is going to be extensively used in the future.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.
Nice contradiction. What's next? Coders that don't code but moving modules around? That is why most of the web looks like sh*te; there are a sh*tload of wannabe webdesigners who just should not let to have computers.
Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
Total BS. Let's just take one of them. Apple stated that there is no full version of Flash available that will run on the iPhone.
You're saying that argument has been 'torn asunder'. So where is the version of Flash that runs on the iPhone? After all, there are jailbroken iPhones that should run it if it's available. Or other mobile phones, for that matter. So where is it?
The rest of Steve's arguments haven't been debunked, either.
Your name is only half right. You need work on the rationality part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Absolutely, there is a lot of hubris to get past, and surprised I forgot to include that as a reason why they won't do it until it's too late. My point was that between Flash Professional and Dreamweaver they are in the best position to offer a great solution.
Agreed. If Adobe had been working on this with 1/2 the energy they spend attacking Apple over the Flash issue, it would already be on the market.
Nice contradiction. What's next? Coders that don't code but moving modules around? That is why most of the web looks like sh*te; there are a sh*tload of wannabe webdesigners who just should not let to have computers.
I agree. Efficient coding is mandatory for a good website. Dreamweaver is a great program but I spend more time in code view than design view, as it should be. That is why there are professionals. You can write HTML5 compliant code (as far as it goes for a not completely adopted standard) in Dreamweaver all day long.
Total BS. Let's just take one of them. Apple stated that there is no full version of Flash available that will run on the iPhone.
You're saying that argument has been 'torn asunder'. So where is the version of Flash that runs on the iPhone?
It's forbidden, and running software of your own choice in an iPhone is defined by Apple's legal agreement as a criminal act.
Flash CS5 shipped two business days after Steve Steved it, so if you were in earnest about wanting to see it you could. There are videos of it running on Android floating around too - Google is your friend.
Now here's one for you: Were you aware that the Finder wasn't rewritten to use Cocoa until just this last version, Snow Leopard, and that Final Cut Pro has taken even longer to become, what Steve says, is "modern"?
Not really ? He's right and this is a very frustrating articles for several reasons. First the headline implies that Apple is developing some kind of Flash alternative. This has nothing to do with Flash and isn't being developed for market. As the article states, this was shown almost a year ago. Gianduia is just the codename of one of the five or so internal JavaScript frameworks that Apple has created to support some of the applications they're building. Apple employs Cocoa developers, so it advantageous for them to have web frameworks that mimic Cocoa frameworks.
You are making an assumption that Apple will not release this into the market. Apple was using Cocoa Touch for iPhone apps before they released it for third party development. Its more likely Apple showed off Gianduia last year to show what they are working on. But it wasn't ready yet.
Quote:
This is in the same class as Cappuccino and SproutCore and I've never heard of them being billed as Flash replacements. They're for building better Gmail-like apps, which Flash has never really played a big part in.
Their intent is to replace Flash with HTML5. That is the point.
Quote:
WebGL (based on OpenGL ES) is a very deep API and I don't expect most web developers will pick it up any time soon. It's not really suited to just including a few animations on a page but rather providing a full shader-based, graphics programming pipeline. It'll be helpful for doing things like scientific visualizations or certain kinds of games. For the kinds of animations Flash is mostly used for, most benchmarks show that Canvas+JavaScript is more than performant. And it'll only get faster.
The point of these frameworks such as Gianduia and Sproutcore is to shorten the learning curve and make it easier to use these tools.
Quote:
Anyway, my point is that AI is trying to position this as some kind of Flash alternative possibly desktop tool people can use to create Flash-like content and that may be released later this year. It's not ? it's a rich application JavaScript framework they've used internally and might possibly be open sourced for others to use like SproutCore. Programming essentially in Objective-C patterns with Cocoa-like API's while writing JavaScript is not going to appeal to the Flash programming crowd.
Yes I see your logic. Why would Apple develop an alternative development HTML5 framework to Flash? When Apple has clearly and loudly pronounced that it will not support Flash and wants HTML5 to replace it. With that understanding it makes no sense for them to create development tools that help make it easier to create HTML5 web applications.
I think you should be able to appreciate the difficulty in rewriting whole sections of the OS. Especially when MS has to ship two entirely different Windows for 32bit and 64bit. Apple has built both in the same OS.
Final Cut Pro hooks directly into OS API's. Apple had to move all of these elements to Cocoa and 64 bit together. Its more complicated than you make it sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll
Now here's one for you: Were you aware that the Finder wasn't rewritten to use Cocoa until just this last version, Snow Leopard, and that Final Cut Pro has taken even longer to become, what Steve says, is "modern"?
Comments
Suddenly Steve's insane attacks on Adobe begin to make sense: he wasn't concerned about Flash at all, other than as a competitor to his new product.
Really??
So what he (and many others) have said (and been saying for a long time) about Flash makes no sense to you?
Just no clue what the hell the guy was talkin' about?
But NOW you think you get it?
Insightful.
It could be worse I guess. At least there are no viruses.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.
My DREAM exactly!!! I 110% agree!!!!!
I'd like to see Apple make a Dreamweaver like HTML5 development program. It would make a nice addition to their pro apps suite.
Apple, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE make one! I 2,00000000000% agree!!!! The only Q I have, will it be possible to support multiple sites, like in Dreamweaver!? I want this badly!
Is there a Petition somewhere to Sign
Only thing, I hope that it's not to be tied into Mobile Me for Hosting! I like GoDaddy, cause it has 24/7 Live Phone Support! Great! Lucky for me, I only used it a few times, but it's very comforting to know that someone's there, vs. NOBODY at Mobile Me, except the Text Chat! But, what if one's Mac is having a bad day, or the connection is interrupted, one looses the Chat, and the whole thing has to start again! Even if they preserve the Comments from the previous Chat/Case ##, it's not as good as a Live Human!
While I'd like this, I think Adobe is in a much better position to do this. They could even further their sales of Flash Professional by having it output standards-based HTML/JS/CSS for newer browsers and Flash as a fallback for older browsers. After all, they make their money on the pro app sales, not the free plug-in.
If Apple makes a Dreamweaver Replacement, I'll be there in a heart beat, buying it! Only thing, I made my site with Dreamweaver 8, Templates and all.... I hope there would be a way of Apple's Dreamweaver Replacement to Import that Site, and Convert it, as needed to HTML 5, so one doesn't have to make the new one from scratch..., or Copy and Paste, one page at a Time! I just checked one of my pages, made with Dreamweaver 8, and in Code View it says:
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">;
I am so glad you guys brought this topic up! As I am about to get a New MBP 17, I don't know if I'd be able to Install and run Dreamweaver 8 on whatever the latest Snow Leopard will come with my New MBP, 10.6.4? I hope DW8 will install and run OK, as per a few posts I've seen online, but I won't know for sure, until I try to do that! I just want to avoid getting the latest Dreamweaver for $500 (?), knowing that I'd rather use Apple's Answer to that!!!
Flash is SLOW on my PB G4, 1.67, 1GB RAM, 10.4.11.... - YouTube is choppy, Vimeo is worse! TweetDeck (made with Adobe Air) - SLOW, and not stable!
I am glad that Steve Jobs has finally declared ••• ENOUGH!!! ••• in his Thoughts on Flash!!!!
My New MBP 17' will have i7 CPU in it, so it'll probably mask/compensate for Flash faults, but, I'd rather that CPU not "sweat it", and use its muscle on other stuff!!!
Thank you guys again for bring up this iWeb Pro, or whatever the Name Apple will pick!!! Then, imagine them Fully Integrating it with the rest of iLife etc!, so that it flies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Speed, Stability! A Total WYSIWYG Orgy!!!
Really??
So what he (and many others) have said (and been saying for a long time) about Flash makes no sense to you?
Just no clue what the hell the guy was talkin' about?
But NOW you think you get it?
Insightful.
Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
Apple, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE make one! I 2,00000000000% agree!!!! The only Q I have, will it be possible to support multiple sites, like in Dreamweaver!? I want this badly!
If you are talking about iWeb here, it is very simple to make it work with multiple sites already.
1. Has a name you can't misread (as Glandula)!
2. Has a name you can't mispronounce (I think it should be pronounced as if spelled Janduya)
3. Has at least one popular development environment which is firmly graphics (animation) first.
4. Does not rely on WebObjects (I realise that it's all ultimately CGI in interface, but it should support ad-hoc server-side Java, PHP, or whatever else).
Given all of the above, it's pretty clear that it is not (at this time) being positioned as a Flash replacement, but rather offering an alternative for existing Apple customers who have businesslike uses for Flash.
It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight). If these rich web interaction can be handled by efficient and easily coded JS then there is no need for Flash (or Silverlight) for that same task. It doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Flash can do to pick away at it's usage and become prominent. Just look at the number of sites moving to HTML5 for video over Flash, and that is the start.
Agreed, there are many places where Flash is used where it isn't needed; a news paper was whining because it uses Flash for slide show of pictures - something that could easily be done with the existing standards or using a decent CMS system with the code already provided. I've seen very few cases where Flash is absolutely needed - very few cases indeed. I can only hope that maybe the HTML5 exporting functionality by Flash CS5 is going to be extensively used in the future.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.
Nice contradiction. What's next? Coders that don't code but moving modules around? That is why most of the web looks like sh*te; there are a sh*tload of wannabe webdesigners who just should not let to have computers.
Embrace the fever of GlandularCocoa.
HTML5 VS Flash may be a discussion in app-land, in games-land the whole discussion doesn't make any sense.
Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
Total BS. Let's just take one of them. Apple stated that there is no full version of Flash available that will run on the iPhone.
You're saying that argument has been 'torn asunder'. So where is the version of Flash that runs on the iPhone? After all, there are jailbroken iPhones that should run it if it's available. Or other mobile phones, for that matter. So where is it?
The rest of Steve's arguments haven't been debunked, either.
Your name is only half right. You need work on the rationality part.
Absolutely, there is a lot of hubris to get past, and surprised I forgot to include that as a reason why they won't do it until it's too late. My point was that between Flash Professional and Dreamweaver they are in the best position to offer a great solution.
Agreed. If Adobe had been working on this with 1/2 the energy they spend attacking Apple over the Flash issue, it would already be on the market.
Nice contradiction. What's next? Coders that don't code but moving modules around? That is why most of the web looks like sh*te; there are a sh*tload of wannabe webdesigners who just should not let to have computers.
I agree. Efficient coding is mandatory for a good website. Dreamweaver is a great program but I spend more time in code view than design view, as it should be. That is why there are professionals. You can write HTML5 compliant code (as far as it goes for a not completely adopted standard) in Dreamweaver all day long.
Total BS. Let's just take one of them. Apple stated that there is no full version of Flash available that will run on the iPhone.
You're saying that argument has been 'torn asunder'. So where is the version of Flash that runs on the iPhone?
It's forbidden, and running software of your own choice in an iPhone is defined by Apple's legal agreement as a criminal act.
Flash CS5 shipped two business days after Steve Steved it, so if you were in earnest about wanting to see it you could. There are videos of it running on Android floating around too - Google is your friend.
Now here's one for you: Were you aware that the Finder wasn't rewritten to use Cocoa until just this last version, Snow Leopard, and that Final Cut Pro has taken even longer to become, what Steve says, is "modern"?
Apple doesn't eat their own dogfood.
Google Shows How HTML5 Can Run Quake In The Browser
You cannot make web games with Html5.
HTML5 VS Flash may be a discussion in app-land, in games-land the whole discussion doesn't make any sense.
Not really ? He's right and this is a very frustrating articles for several reasons. First the headline implies that Apple is developing some kind of Flash alternative. This has nothing to do with Flash and isn't being developed for market. As the article states, this was shown almost a year ago. Gianduia is just the codename of one of the five or so internal JavaScript frameworks that Apple has created to support some of the applications they're building. Apple employs Cocoa developers, so it advantageous for them to have web frameworks that mimic Cocoa frameworks.
You are making an assumption that Apple will not release this into the market. Apple was using Cocoa Touch for iPhone apps before they released it for third party development. Its more likely Apple showed off Gianduia last year to show what they are working on. But it wasn't ready yet.
This is in the same class as Cappuccino and SproutCore and I've never heard of them being billed as Flash replacements. They're for building better Gmail-like apps, which Flash has never really played a big part in.
Their intent is to replace Flash with HTML5. That is the point.
WebGL (based on OpenGL ES) is a very deep API and I don't expect most web developers will pick it up any time soon. It's not really suited to just including a few animations on a page but rather providing a full shader-based, graphics programming pipeline. It'll be helpful for doing things like scientific visualizations or certain kinds of games. For the kinds of animations Flash is mostly used for, most benchmarks show that Canvas+JavaScript is more than performant. And it'll only get faster.
The point of these frameworks such as Gianduia and Sproutcore is to shorten the learning curve and make it easier to use these tools.
Anyway, my point is that AI is trying to position this as some kind of Flash alternative possibly desktop tool people can use to create Flash-like content and that may be released later this year. It's not ? it's a rich application JavaScript framework they've used internally and might possibly be open sourced for others to use like SproutCore. Programming essentially in Objective-C patterns with Cocoa-like API's while writing JavaScript is not going to appeal to the Flash programming crowd.
Yes I see your logic. Why would Apple develop an alternative development HTML5 framework to Flash? When Apple has clearly and loudly pronounced that it will not support Flash and wants HTML5 to replace it. With that understanding it makes no sense for them to create development tools that help make it easier to create HTML5 web applications.
Final Cut Pro hooks directly into OS API's. Apple had to move all of these elements to Cocoa and 64 bit together. Its more complicated than you make it sound.
Now here's one for you: Were you aware that the Finder wasn't rewritten to use Cocoa until just this last version, Snow Leopard, and that Final Cut Pro has taken even longer to become, what Steve says, is "modern"?
Apple doesn't eat their own dogfood.