The question that no one has answered is why Apple sponsored two Javascript Development framework? SproutCore and Gianduia both seems to offer the same thing.
I've been trying to look this up but have no concrete info. Perhaps Giandula is the evolution for SprotuCore, not really a parallel framework to compete with each other. Or perhaps Giandula allows for Progressive Enhancement so that older browsers and/or browsers that can't have JS enabled can have basic functionality. (Those are speculative for the sake of discussion, not statements of fact)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I don't now... Flash already exports as quicktime and animated gif so it might not be too hard to imagine HTML5 however Adobe might prefer to make it part of Dreamweaver instead.
I think the main problem with the whole notion that there will soon be a GUI based HTML5 animation tool is dependent on someone being able to figure out how to do it. These frameworks that we have an ever increasing selection of just don't lend themselves to the easy drag and drop timeline event, layers, vectors model that is Flash.
It is going to take a completely different approach to produce a designer friendly tool. Programmers don't really mind having to code and debug hundreds of lines of code to get a desired result but in order for a designer to make money with it, it needs to be a lot more like a rapid application development environment similar to flash.
I think we're basically on the same page here, just focusing on different distances. i don't see any of these clever frameworks replacing Flash or other parts of the web today. These are just the start, but they show a very bright future for the future of the internet for developers and users.
I do have two caveats. One, HTML5's Canvas and CSS Animations for ads and other annoying things that can't easily be turned off like with Flash blockers. Animated GIFs can still be annoying so this will present an issue at some point that will require very intelligent blockers compared to what we have now. Two, WebGL is great but giving a DOM access to HW scares me just a bit.
Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
Love the food combo - hazelnut and dark chocolate. Very popular in Torino, where they lay a local claim to it. Combine with cappuccino and java (a bit redundant) and you've got yourself a serious food high.
If that's the flavor combo, why not just call it Nutella?
Are you even reading what I'm writing. In my list of companies that are supporting HTML5, I said "even Adobe itself".
Its different because things are changing. Steve Jobs focus is not on Flash itself, Jobs focus is on how everything is changing and Flash does not suit the new environment.
Flash worked perfectly fine as long as most of the computer industry was using desktops with ample system resources and plugged into unlimited power supplies.
The industry is shifting to mobile devices that have extremely limited system resources and extremely limited power supplies. These devices require lightweight and energy efficient software. Flash ain't it.
Seeing as every mobile platform does or soon will fully support HTML5 and no phone currently fully run Flash.
Every major website is developing a "Flashless" version with pure H.264 video delivery.
Adobe keeps pushing back Flash for the mobile device.
We are seeing how it plays out.
I did read what you posted, and you posted Adobe against everybody else. It simply, isn't true. Period.
As stated, adobe is behind on developing a player for mobile. Their player currently, isn't because of obvious reasons (though flash lite is on some already), soI'm not sure exactly what you are arguing about
I'm trying to point out the spouting nonsense, and the fact that certain opinions seem to tell the whole storey. If you want to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's good to look at the whole storey and scope out what's happening on both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
If we are talking about truth, then it needs to be pointed out that you are spinning it fairly hard here.
Yes, it's technically true that Adobe is part of the team working very hard on HTML5, but you fail to mention that they are at the same time, working to push the HTML5 group away from using or developing the "Canvas" elementwhich is the part of HTML5 that would basically replace Flash animations on the web.
"Adobe is working hard on making sure that Flash animations don't get replaced by HTML5's Canvas element." (and thus make the Flash plugin obsolete), would be the closest to a true and accurate statement.
Nonsense. Just because someone reported it as some kind of fact, doesn't make it so. Oh wait, look at! Flash CS5 exports to html canvas? Say it ain't so...
Addendum: Here are some comments from an HTML WG member, Shelley Powers, who is not affiliated with Adobe:
I'm a member of the HTML WG, but I'm not speaking for the HTML WG, or W3C. I'm only expressing my opinion, and what I know to be facts. I'm also not an employee of Google, Adobe, Apple, Microsoft, or any other company (I'm a writer, for O'Reilly).
There is no truth to this rumor. The posting here is inaccurate. Grossly inaccurate I would add.
This was an issue that has been under discussion, off and on, on the publicly accessible HTML WG for months. It has to do with scope and charter, not the specifications themselves. The Adobe representative to the HTML WG registered his concerns about the fact that the HTML WG is working on specifications that push, or exceed the group's charter. This includes Microdata, RDFa-in-HTML, and the 2D Canvas API.
Adobe is not blocking any specification. There are dozens of issues that are "blocking" HTML5, if you want to use that term, of which I'm responsible for many at this time. Technically the HTML5 specification can't advance to Last Call status until these issues are resolved. However, the W3C management can override my issues, and the issues of any individual or company. No one company can block the advancement of any specification without the concurrence of the W3C leadership.
All of these issues are based on improving all of the specifications, including HTML5 and Canvas. it's unfortunate that the HTML5 editor, who is also the Google representative to the HTML WG introduced such wild, and unfounded speculation, causing harm not only to the Adobe representative, but distracting all of us from the work of finishing the HTML5 and other specifications.
I would hope that people would seek to get confirmation before posting unfounded accusations.
The spewing is tiresome.
No one has a crystal ball. I don't know where any of these technologies will go. I suspect it will take far more than Steve Jobs to kill flash though. It's possible, and as I said, a lot rests on adobe's ability to deliver, and soon.
Floppy disks were dead long before Mr. Jobs said so. It was a good call. You can't compare a legacy technology just about dead with something that currently holds 97% of users still, regardless of how much you dislike flash.
I imagine Apple would do the same as its done with Flash access to HW. Use an API with security in place. So the DOM doesn't have direct access and has to go through the OS to the hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Two, WebGL is great but giving a DOM access to HW scares me just a bit.
It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight). If these rich web interaction can be handled by efficient and easily coded JS then there is no need for Flash (or Silverlight) for that same task. It doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Flash can do to pick away at it's usage and become prominent. Just look at the number of sites moving to HTML5 for video over Flash, and that is the start.
Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5. When AI say a Flash Alternative, something similar to Sliverlight is what others will think. However, Gianduia is not an platform.
It is like saying Apple developing Ferrari alternative named xxxx ( an Engine ). Which doesn't make sense.
Erm, the name / joke analogy is actually a little boneheaded. How many hugely successful products and companies of the last decade have nonsensical names?
The difference is those nonsensical names were "catchy". They branded themselves. A non-linguist didn't have to look them up to figure out how to pronounce them, much less what they were supposed to mean.
I challenge anyone here to go to a party tonight and say "I work with Gianduia!". Good luck getting past the blank looks and "What's that?" comments.
Anyway it's not a good name, and surprising Apple would use it at all. Then again this is the Apple that gave us Dylan... a language unfortunately named after someone with his own language.
I did read what you posted, and you posted Adobe against everybody else. It simply, isn't true. Period.
Adobe is working on Flash by itself. Many companies and organizations are working on HTML5, so it is Adobe competing against everyone else.
Quote:
As stated, adobe is behind on developing a player for mobile. Their player currently, isn't because of obvious reasons (though flash lite is on some already), soI'm not sure exactly what you are arguing about
The point you just made, is the point. HTML5 is new and efficient and works right now. Flash is old inefficient. Adobe is trying to make it do what it was originally designed to do.
Quote:
I'm trying to point out the spouting nonsense, and the fact that certain opinions seem to tell the whole storey. If you want to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's good to look at the whole story and scope out what's happening on both sides.
What non-sense do you see spouted? How have I been unfair to the role Flash plays in the current reality of the computer industry?
Adobe is working on Flash by itself. Many companies and organizations are working on HTML5, so it is Adobe competing against everyone else.
The point you just made, is the point. HTML5 is new and efficient and works right now. Flash is old inefficient. Adobe is trying to make it do what it was originally designed to do.
What non-sense do you see spouted? How have I been unfair to the role Flash plays in the current reality of the computer industry?
what are we missing here. Oh right, sanity.
Ok, adobe is NOT working flash by itself, they are working many applications and platforms that include HTML5. So, what are you talking about just flash by itself.
gah.
This, is the nonsense, I see spouted. It's tiresome.
There are plenty, of things to criticize adobe for. But we need to get the straight and accurate to have a decent conversation right?
Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5. When AI say a Flash Alternative, something similar to Sliverlight is what others will think. However, Gianduia is not an platform.
It is like saying Apple developing Ferrari alternative named xxxx ( an Engine ). Which doesn't make sense.
That is why, the title is misleading.
No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash. Similarly, this JS framework is an alternative to another use of Flash: RIAs.
An alternative doesn't necessarily imply a full drop in replacement with all of the exact same features, and the fact that you might jump to that conclusion when reading the headline is your problem, not AIs. That's why there is text to read after the headline which clarifies the various uses of Flash and how each one is being taken down by different technologies.
Flash is suposed to be a one-size-fits-all solution to everything. But the web is a collection of tools that work together: HTML for semantic presentation, CSS for styling, JavaScript for programability and interaction. Flash is an alternative to the web that rolls everything into a binary blob you have to wait to download.
The only problem with this type of thinking it that it totally ignores the history of the computer industry. No technology is assured. Fortunes rise and fall, empires are built and destroyed. Nothing is guaranteed. There is nothing inherent in Flash that it cannot be replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec
Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5.
No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash. Similarly, this JS framework is an alternative to another use of Flash: RIAs.
An alternative doesn't necessarily imply a full drop in replacement with all of the exact same features, and the fact that you might jump to that conclusion when reading the headline is your problem, not AIs. That's why there is text to read after the headline which clarifies the various uses of Flash and how each one is being taken down by different technologies.
Flash is suposed to be a one-size-fits-all solution to everything. But the web is a collection of tools that work together: HTML for semantic presentation, CSS for styling, JavaScript for programability and interaction. Flash is an alternative to the web that rolls everything into a binary blob you have to wait to download.
wrong. HTML5 as a player of the H.264, is the alternative, not H.264. Flash is the container that plays H.264, and has had support for playing H.264 for a long time. It enables the ability to share video files and offer a different player.
And wrong again that flash is to be a one size fits all. You need to have experience in developing flash, AND CSS js etc, to know this.
Who else other than Adobe is guiding the development work for Flash? Flash is not an open platform. The other platforms Adobe is working on are open and not controlled by any one company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube
what are we missing here. Oh right, sanity.
Ok, adobe is NOT working flash by itself, they are working many applications and platforms that include HTML5. So, what are you talking about just flash by itself.
There are plenty, of things to criticize adobe for. But we need to get the straight and accurate to have a decent conversation right?
Who else other than Adobe is guiding the development work for Flash? Flash is not an open platform. The other platforms Adobe is working on are open and not controlled by any one company.
and what does this prove? Certainly not what you asserted as adobe against everybody else! Does the fact that a company has a unique product/platform automatically makes them all alone against all the other companies?
When everyone else is supporting a competing technology, yes it does. I'm not sure why that's difficult to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube
and what does this prove? Certainly not what you asserted as adobe against everybody else! Does the fact that a company has a unique product/platform automatically makes them all alone against all the other companies?
Comments
You are saying this isn't possible while its already being done.
This is the whole purpose of Sproutcore
Have you tried it? I don't think it is working presently.
The question that no one has answered is why Apple sponsored two Javascript Development framework? SproutCore and Gianduia both seems to offer the same thing.
I've been trying to look this up but have no concrete info. Perhaps Giandula is the evolution for SprotuCore, not really a parallel framework to compete with each other. Or perhaps Giandula allows for Progressive Enhancement so that older browsers and/or browsers that can't have JS enabled can have basic functionality. (Those are speculative for the sake of discussion, not statements of fact)
I don't now... Flash already exports as quicktime and animated gif so it might not be too hard to imagine HTML5 however Adobe might prefer to make it part of Dreamweaver instead.
I think the main problem with the whole notion that there will soon be a GUI based HTML5 animation tool is dependent on someone being able to figure out how to do it. These frameworks that we have an ever increasing selection of just don't lend themselves to the easy drag and drop timeline event, layers, vectors model that is Flash.
It is going to take a completely different approach to produce a designer friendly tool. Programmers don't really mind having to code and debug hundreds of lines of code to get a desired result but in order for a designer to make money with it, it needs to be a lot more like a rapid application development environment similar to flash.
I think we're basically on the same page here, just focusing on different distances. i don't see any of these clever frameworks replacing Flash or other parts of the web today. These are just the start, but they show a very bright future for the future of the internet for developers and users.
I do have two caveats. One, HTML5's Canvas and CSS Animations for ads and other annoying things that can't easily be turned off like with Flash blockers. Animated GIFs can still be annoying so this will present an issue at some point that will require very intelligent blockers compared to what we have now. Two, WebGL is great but giving a DOM access to HW scares me just a bit.
One of the words in your giant signature is misspelled - Seriously.
And correcting your error won't make it any better.
ban the troll
Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
if steve says floppy discs shall die
well they died
if steves says no flash on mobile devices
then guess what ...
flash is crashing macs world world
Gianduia ... rhymes with 'what's it to'ya'
Love the food combo - hazelnut and dark chocolate. Very popular in Torino, where they lay a local claim to it. Combine with cappuccino and java (a bit redundant) and you've got yourself a serious food high.
If that's the flavor combo, why not just call it Nutella?
Oh, wait... I think that's being used
http://candychocolicio.us/images/nutella.jpg
Is that new-tella, or nut-ella?
I suggest they change the name to Giada. Hubba hubba! Who's with me?
I'll have some of that... with Nutella, of course.
YUM!
Are you even reading what I'm writing. In my list of companies that are supporting HTML5, I said "even Adobe itself".
Its different because things are changing. Steve Jobs focus is not on Flash itself, Jobs focus is on how everything is changing and Flash does not suit the new environment.
Flash worked perfectly fine as long as most of the computer industry was using desktops with ample system resources and plugged into unlimited power supplies.
The industry is shifting to mobile devices that have extremely limited system resources and extremely limited power supplies. These devices require lightweight and energy efficient software. Flash ain't it.
I did read what you posted, and you posted Adobe against everybody else. It simply, isn't true. Period.
As stated, adobe is behind on developing a player for mobile. Their player currently, isn't because of obvious reasons (though flash lite is on some already), soI'm not sure exactly what you are arguing about
I'm trying to point out the spouting nonsense, and the fact that certain opinions seem to tell the whole storey. If you want to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's good to look at the whole storey and scope out what's happening on both sides.
If we are talking about truth, then it needs to be pointed out that you are spinning it fairly hard here.
Yes, it's technically true that Adobe is part of the team working very hard on HTML5, but you fail to mention that they are at the same time, working to push the HTML5 group away from using or developing the "Canvas" element which is the part of HTML5 that would basically replace Flash animations on the web.
"Adobe is working hard on making sure that Flash animations don't get replaced by HTML5's Canvas element." (and thus make the Flash plugin obsolete), would be the closest to a true and accurate statement.
Nonsense. Just because someone reported it as some kind of fact, doesn't make it so. Oh wait, look at! Flash CS5 exports to html canvas? Say it ain't so...
oh. Here, read.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/02...ing_html5.html
specifically:
Addendum: Here are some comments from an HTML WG member, Shelley Powers, who is not affiliated with Adobe:
I'm a member of the HTML WG, but I'm not speaking for the HTML WG, or W3C. I'm only expressing my opinion, and what I know to be facts. I'm also not an employee of Google, Adobe, Apple, Microsoft, or any other company (I'm a writer, for O'Reilly).
There is no truth to this rumor. The posting here is inaccurate. Grossly inaccurate I would add.
This was an issue that has been under discussion, off and on, on the publicly accessible HTML WG for months. It has to do with scope and charter, not the specifications themselves. The Adobe representative to the HTML WG registered his concerns about the fact that the HTML WG is working on specifications that push, or exceed the group's charter. This includes Microdata, RDFa-in-HTML, and the 2D Canvas API.
Adobe is not blocking any specification. There are dozens of issues that are "blocking" HTML5, if you want to use that term, of which I'm responsible for many at this time. Technically the HTML5 specification can't advance to Last Call status until these issues are resolved. However, the W3C management can override my issues, and the issues of any individual or company. No one company can block the advancement of any specification without the concurrence of the W3C leadership.
All of these issues are based on improving all of the specifications, including HTML5 and Canvas. it's unfortunate that the HTML5 editor, who is also the Google representative to the HTML WG introduced such wild, and unfounded speculation, causing harm not only to the Adobe representative, but distracting all of us from the work of finishing the HTML5 and other specifications.
I would hope that people would seek to get confirmation before posting unfounded accusations.
The spewing is tiresome.
No one has a crystal ball. I don't know where any of these technologies will go. I suspect it will take far more than Steve Jobs to kill flash though. It's possible, and as I said, a lot rests on adobe's ability to deliver, and soon.
Floppy disks were dead long before Mr. Jobs said so. It was a good call. You can't compare a legacy technology just about dead with something that currently holds 97% of users still, regardless of how much you dislike flash.
Have you tried it? I don't think it is working presently.
Two, WebGL is great but giving a DOM access to HW scares me just a bit.
It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight). If these rich web interaction can be handled by efficient and easily coded JS then there is no need for Flash (or Silverlight) for that same task. It doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Flash can do to pick away at it's usage and become prominent. Just look at the number of sites moving to HTML5 for video over Flash, and that is the start.
Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5. When AI say a Flash Alternative, something similar to Sliverlight is what others will think. However, Gianduia is not an platform.
It is like saying Apple developing Ferrari alternative named xxxx ( an Engine ). Which doesn't make sense.
That is why, the title is misleading.
Erm, the name / joke analogy is actually a little boneheaded. How many hugely successful products and companies of the last decade have nonsensical names?
The difference is those nonsensical names were "catchy". They branded themselves. A non-linguist didn't have to look them up to figure out how to pronounce them, much less what they were supposed to mean.
I challenge anyone here to go to a party tonight and say "I work with Gianduia!". Good luck getting past the blank looks and "What's that?" comments.
Anyway it's not a good name, and surprising Apple would use it at all. Then again this is the Apple that gave us Dylan... a language unfortunately named after someone with his own language.
I did read what you posted, and you posted Adobe against everybody else. It simply, isn't true. Period.
Adobe is working on Flash by itself. Many companies and organizations are working on HTML5, so it is Adobe competing against everyone else.
As stated, adobe is behind on developing a player for mobile. Their player currently, isn't because of obvious reasons (though flash lite is on some already), soI'm not sure exactly what you are arguing about
The point you just made, is the point. HTML5 is new and efficient and works right now. Flash is old inefficient. Adobe is trying to make it do what it was originally designed to do.
I'm trying to point out the spouting nonsense, and the fact that certain opinions seem to tell the whole storey. If you want to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's good to look at the whole story and scope out what's happening on both sides.
What non-sense do you see spouted? How have I been unfair to the role Flash plays in the current reality of the computer industry?
Adobe is working on Flash by itself. Many companies and organizations are working on HTML5, so it is Adobe competing against everyone else.
The point you just made, is the point. HTML5 is new and efficient and works right now. Flash is old inefficient. Adobe is trying to make it do what it was originally designed to do.
What non-sense do you see spouted? How have I been unfair to the role Flash plays in the current reality of the computer industry?
what are we missing here. Oh right, sanity.
Ok, adobe is NOT working flash by itself, they are working many applications and platforms that include HTML5. So, what are you talking about just flash by itself.
gah.
This, is the nonsense, I see spouted. It's tiresome.
There are plenty, of things to criticize adobe for. But we need to get the straight and accurate to have a decent conversation right?
Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5. When AI say a Flash Alternative, something similar to Sliverlight is what others will think. However, Gianduia is not an platform.
It is like saying Apple developing Ferrari alternative named xxxx ( an Engine ). Which doesn't make sense.
That is why, the title is misleading.
No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash. Similarly, this JS framework is an alternative to another use of Flash: RIAs.
An alternative doesn't necessarily imply a full drop in replacement with all of the exact same features, and the fact that you might jump to that conclusion when reading the headline is your problem, not AIs. That's why there is text to read after the headline which clarifies the various uses of Flash and how each one is being taken down by different technologies.
Flash is suposed to be a one-size-fits-all solution to everything. But the web is a collection of tools that work together: HTML for semantic presentation, CSS for styling, JavaScript for programability and interaction. Flash is an alternative to the web that rolls everything into a binary blob you have to wait to download.
Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5.
No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash. Similarly, this JS framework is an alternative to another use of Flash: RIAs.
An alternative doesn't necessarily imply a full drop in replacement with all of the exact same features, and the fact that you might jump to that conclusion when reading the headline is your problem, not AIs. That's why there is text to read after the headline which clarifies the various uses of Flash and how each one is being taken down by different technologies.
Flash is suposed to be a one-size-fits-all solution to everything. But the web is a collection of tools that work together: HTML for semantic presentation, CSS for styling, JavaScript for programability and interaction. Flash is an alternative to the web that rolls everything into a binary blob you have to wait to download.
wrong. HTML5 as a player of the H.264, is the alternative, not H.264. Flash is the container that plays H.264, and has had support for playing H.264 for a long time. It enables the ability to share video files and offer a different player.
And wrong again that flash is to be a one size fits all. You need to have experience in developing flash, AND CSS js etc, to know this.
what are we missing here. Oh right, sanity.
Ok, adobe is NOT working flash by itself, they are working many applications and platforms that include HTML5. So, what are you talking about just flash by itself.
There are plenty, of things to criticize adobe for. But we need to get the straight and accurate to have a decent conversation right?
No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash.
Who else other than Adobe is guiding the development work for Flash? Flash is not an open platform. The other platforms Adobe is working on are open and not controlled by any one company.
and what does this prove? Certainly not what you asserted as adobe against everybody else! Does the fact that a company has a unique product/platform automatically makes them all alone against all the other companies?
Sounds a little bit of drama to me...
and what does this prove? Certainly not what you asserted as adobe against everybody else! Does the fact that a company has a unique product/platform automatically makes them all alone against all the other companies?
Sounds a little bit of drama to me...