I wonder if it would send 24/96 audio signals to my receiver via HDMI, when playing 24/96 music I already have in iTunes...
Given that I already have all my music and other media on my main system - and need to keep it there - I don't think it will do what I need. I can't choose to sync my current library with it, like I can and love with AppleTV. If Apple started supporting a "home cloud", it would be a lot more attractive...
It says it supports multichannel audio output over HDMI in Apple's specs.
You should use brain before mouth.
Regardless... 96k is an idiotic spec, you'll never actually hear the difference the marketing has convinced you of. You're obviously a home user if this is such a 'required feature', however beyond the pure pointless nature of the sampling rate/frequency combo mentioned, I'd also like to hip you to the fact that if you want to sound all 'audio pro' remember the following:
1. As a digital audio connection, HDMI is not the optimum choice, even digital rca coaxial is more reliable, the big boys use optical or even better AES/EBU.
2. If you want to flaunt specs, try 192kHz/24bit - otherwise remember you are a 'mid-sumer stereo customer', best not to try acting all macho in public.
3. Listen more carefully to study music more effectively, if you're missing something in 44.1kHz/16bit 'CD-quality' audio, it might not be a fidelity problem.
So no, I don't agree that Apple knows what they're doing in the living room, which is a huge shame because, again, they are so close! Meanwhile, the hated Microsoft, of all people, has probably sold more Xboxes and Media Servers (or whatever they're called) than Apple has sold Minis, Apple TVs, etc. combined. Do we really want to see Microsoft win the living room because of Apple's ideological hardware purity and botched efforts?
There's a lot to like from Apple. A tremendous amount, but I'm not in agreement that the new Mini is the best package that they could have offered, and certainly not for this price.
Thought provoking comment about the Xbox sales v. Mac Mini and AppleTV but I can't really say it's relevant to your argument. The AppleTV is still the best interface for media center appliance. It's lacking but so does the Xbox which also has no Blu-ray and has only gotten features the AppleTV came out with in 2007 as a way of catching up and competing with the PS3 which also focused more on being a connected media appliance.
I don't think the Mac Mini at the previous or original price make it a great HTPC. Even if it had HDMI from the start and had BackRow over the anemic and rotting FrontRow. It's $500 for a waste of a PC, IMO. I think something running A4 with the Imagination chip to decode 1080p in an even smaller package for under $150 would be ideal to connect the user to their home network and the internet.
I don't think adding a Blu-ray to it is the way to go. If you want that then the PS3 seems ideal. It has a pretty slick interface, too, and play .m2ts files and other containers and codecs that Apple would never allow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorOfMuppets
I'm just amazed this thing came about without one leaked photo, half assembled case, or whatever reaching the press. It is only a mini, but still, when was the last time you went to Apple's homepage and saw a product completely new and unexpected?
LOL I was just discussing that. We heard of a new Mini with HDMI, but I think that is about it. Apparently they can still keep some leaks at bay.
It does have an IR port. The Apple Remote is a BTO option, and the little IR window is clearly visible on the server version (it's hidden just inside the right side of the optical slot on the standard version). It must be a misprint that the specs page doesn't mention it.
You're right. I guess it's an easy conclusion to jump to when it's not mentioned and the white MacBook reputedly doesn't have it anymore. The IR port is pretty subtle on the
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetlaw
2) Apple has a vested interest in delivering content, including HD, via the iTunes store;
How well is their video business going? Apple hasn't mentioned their sales figures for video in years that I have found.
Quote:
4) Steve/Apple have a history of killing off "legacy" peripherals;
It seems to me that the mini's optical drive could have been dropped and the SD placed in front. I think the convenience and speed of SD would have made the extra expense of an SD card worthwhile.
The iPhone only exploded (in terms of sales) when it became affordable. If Apple ever wants to Mac to be anything other than niche, it will need to compete with Dell, HP etc.
You mean if they did a payment plan? That is essentially how the iPhone is payed for. Technically the iPhone costs about the same as the Mac Mini.
The footprint is the same because it can stand on end.
And stop being racist about off-shore call centres, they speak English, often a lot better than the natives do.
And Dell's reliability isn't that poor, you really need to stop exaggerating. It's not as if Apple's products don't fail, you only need to look back at the major failures there have been.
It's not racist to state that support for most computer vendors is overseas - and many of them speak very poor English (yes, there are exceptions).
And I'm not exaggerating on the quality of Dell's reliability. Every single survey shows Apple reliability to be on top. Dell is almost always FAR below.
You can choose to buy quality or you can choose to buy cheap. Just don't complain if quality isn't cheap.
With the last Mini update they introduced the Mac Mini Server - acknowledging that people had been using them for that. Now they have given it a beautiful case (suitable for the living room) and an HDMI port - acknowledging that people have been using them for HTPCs.
I think it's unique to the Mini that they look at what people are doing with them and adapt the unit, whereas with other Macs they seem to have more of a "vision" which they impose on the customer. Or at least, the adaptation isn't so obvious.
If you think it's expensive, don't buy one. That simple. Go ahead and buy your POS cheap box which has a 40% failure rate out of the box and which requires you to talk to someone in Swahili to get support.
Meanwhile, here in the real world, the Mini server is a super value. Please look up the cost of Windows server with unlimited client licenses. Heck, the software alone is considerably more expensive than the Mac Mini server.
The original poster, Mobius, was simply stating his/her opinion. It was entirely reasonable for them to have done so. But every time that you see anyone do something like this, offering a reasoned, informed criticism of some product, there will also be some creep like jragosta, who evidently clings vicariously to this product for the semblance of some personal self-worth, who will come along and slap the original poster upside the head, for not good reason.
jragosta, if you disagree with what Mobious wrote, it is reasonable for you to say so, but only as long as you keep the tone polite and civil. But I have seen people like you react the way that you did, so many times on so many forums, that I am way past the point of being tired of it. If Mobious had in any way singled you out individually and insulted you, then and only then would the tone and content of your response have been appropriate. You have not shed a modicum of light on the question of the relative value of the new Mini.
The original poster, Mobius, was simply stating his/her opinion. It was entirely reasonable for them to have done so. But every time that you see anyone do something like this, offering a reasoned, informed criticism of some product, there will also be some creep like jragosta, who evidently clings vicariously to this product for the semblance of some personal self-worth, who will come along and slap the original poster upside the head, for not good reason.
jragosta, if you disagree with what Mobious wrote, it is reasonable for you to say so, but only as long as you keep the tone polite and civil. But I have seen people like you react the way that you did, so many times on so many forums, that I am way past the point of being tired of it. If Mobious had in any way singled you out individually and insulted you, then and only then would the tone and content of your response have been appropriate. You have not shed a modicum of light on the question of the relative value of the new Mini.
Who's the one making personal attacks, here? Obviously, it's you, not me. Just read your post above.
My point is very simple. People are whining that it's too small or too big or too expensive or missing features or any one of 1,000 other whining complaints. These forums are filled with these kinds of whining posts over and over and over again.
Do they really think that Apple is too stupid to have considered putting BD into a computer? If so, that's an inane position. If not, then Apple has made their decision for some reason - and Apple undoubtedly knows more about their reasoning than some whiner on AI. These people are so self-centered that they believe that their wishes should somehow take precedence over Apple's R&D and market research. Sorry, but THAT is very tiring.
If they think they can do better, they should go out and start their own computer company. Otherwise, please spare us the whining.
The Mini is the small utility version of a truck Steve referred to. I don't need extra video cards. I don't need 4 hard drives. The server model is exactly right for me. I don't burn many DVDs and for $100 the USB version works fine. 8 GB of ram is plenty for the development work I do. I don't do really high end photoshop or huge video. I can still choose my own monitor and keyboard and mouse. I actually still like a kensington large trackball. I don't want a glossy screen. The entry level is now iPad.
Apple is NOT moving away from Mac OS for us. Stop being ridiculous. The iOS is entry level and for the masses. There will always be an operating system like OS X to program the content. C'mon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux
I guess Apple wants to accelerate their revenue base away from Mac OS and towards iOS faster than many of us expected. For $500 people now shop for an iPad, not a Mac.
Apple went the exact wrong direction with this update. Barely increase its capability, charge $100 more and give people less reason to buy it. Yeah, that's real great. Oh, and god forbid you want something more powerful than the base model.
Base: 2.4GHz, 2GB RAM, 320GB hdd $699
Upgrades: 2.66GHz, 8GB RAM, 500GB hdd $1449
Throw on AppleCare and that upgraded one will run you $1600 for old tech. I built a more powerful PC 2 1/2 years ago for $1500, including buying a new monitor. I much rather would have seen a slight size increase and see Apple move the product line to i5 or better across the board.
Miniaturization, as pointed out, reduces costs. Not just in shipping, but manufacturing. That's why your CPU is manufactured on a smaller fab than previous CPUs; lower bill of materials.
Less aluminum, less PCB, etc means less cost to produce. Think what a tower with the same specs would cost. $399? Mac minis don't ship with the MS tax, either; they ship with the considerably higher Apple tax, now.
I like the engineering, but the price is far too high for an entry level machine that sports an obsolete CPU and integrated graphics. I don't think there's enough Kool-Aid drinkers out there to keep this one afloat.
I don't think the Mac Mini at the previous or original price make it a great HTPC. Even if it had HDMI from the start and had BackRow over the anemic and rotting FrontRow. It's $500 for a waste of a PC, IMO. I think something running A4 with the Imagination chip to decode 1080p in an even smaller package for under $150 would be ideal to connect the user to their home network and the internet.
I agree that throwing a Mac Mini at the task is overkill, but so far Apple TV has likewise been underkill. (I got a refurb Mini for $500 for this task, and for $200 more than the Apple TV it has performed quite well and completely side-stepped the limited format issue that has constrained Apple TV. Plus, it can play DVDs, those pesky discs that we'll be stuck with for another decade until decent broadband becomes a reality.)
It seems that there would be a market for an Apple product that accomplishes the following:
1) Plays every form of Apple-supplied content.
2) Plays Netflix instant-play content.
3) Plays YouTube, Hulu, other internet-based content.
4) Plays BD discs.
5) Can be completely controlled using any touch iDevice
5a) Comes with a better bundled remote for out-of-the-box operation.
6) Supports HDMI, DisplayPort, optical audio out
7) Serves as an iPhone/iPod dock
8) Integrate seamlessly with a separate --and entirely optional-- iTunes package that turns a full-funtion Mac into a centralized home media library.
(There are probably a few other items, and Roughly Drafted has likewise offered suggestions in the past.)
These are not fantasy specs -Apple already offers most of this already, and the rest is software. Offer this for $300 without a BD drive, $500 with. Do this, and no one will talk of using a Mini as a media device again.
Miniaturization, as pointed out, reduces costs. Not just in shipping, but manufacturing. That's why your CPU is manufactured on a smaller fab than previous CPUs; lower bill of materials.
Less aluminum, less PCB, etc means less cost to produce. Think what a tower with the same specs would cost. $399? Mac minis don't ship with the MS tax, either; they ship with the considerably higher Apple tax, now.
I like the engineering, but the price is far too high for an entry level machine that sports an obsolete CPU and integrated graphics. I don't think there's enough Kool-Aid drinkers out there to keep this one afloat.
Miniaturization reduces SOME costs, but increases others.
For example, how much is a mobile CPU vs a desktop CPU at the same clock speed? How much is a tiny form factor optical drive vs a larger desktop drive.
The Mini has been specially engineered to meet the size target. That requires the use of laptop components which are more expensive than their desktop equivalents.
I love the 'Apple tax is higher than the MS tax' argument. Why not do some research on how much a server license with unlimited clients costs from Apple vs Microsoft. It's $499 for Apple and quite a few times higher for Microsoft. Heck, Apple will give you an unlimited client license server INCLUDING HARDWARE for less than Microsoft charges for just the software.
Or look at upgrade prices. A full version upgrade of Mac OS X is $129 or 5 licenses for $199. How much is the equivalent for Windows Ultimate?
UK starting price is horrific. £649 base model is way overpriced. Once you spec it up to a reasonable 4GB RAM and bigger hard drive you're into refurbished iMac territory. A Mac Mini at this price makes no sense other than as an upsell to a better system. It's certainly lost it's appeal as a cheap alternative desktop Mac. To this prospective Mac Mini buyer anyhow...
Ok, $500 extra for 8 gigs of RAM? That's almost 72% of the entire computer's cost just in RAM. "F"-that! I'm so glad you can access the RAM yourself. Otherwise this would be a no-deal for me. When my POS Dell kicks it (or when i'm tired replacing memory chips because of faulty hardware) i'm getting this little baby. I'm so glad i waited to buy this 2 years ago, this update is HUGE!
Comments
I wonder if it would send 24/96 audio signals to my receiver via HDMI, when playing 24/96 music I already have in iTunes...
Given that I already have all my music and other media on my main system - and need to keep it there - I don't think it will do what I need. I can't choose to sync my current library with it, like I can and love with AppleTV. If Apple started supporting a "home cloud", it would be a lot more attractive...
It says it supports multichannel audio output over HDMI in Apple's specs.
You should use brain before mouth.
Regardless... 96k is an idiotic spec, you'll never actually hear the difference the marketing has convinced you of. You're obviously a home user if this is such a 'required feature', however beyond the pure pointless nature of the sampling rate/frequency combo mentioned, I'd also like to hip you to the fact that if you want to sound all 'audio pro' remember the following:
1. As a digital audio connection, HDMI is not the optimum choice, even digital rca coaxial is more reliable, the big boys use optical or even better AES/EBU.
2. If you want to flaunt specs, try 192kHz/24bit - otherwise remember you are a 'mid-sumer stereo customer', best not to try acting all macho in public.
3. Listen more carefully to study music more effectively, if you're missing something in 44.1kHz/16bit 'CD-quality' audio, it might not be a fidelity problem.
So no, I don't agree that Apple knows what they're doing in the living room, which is a huge shame because, again, they are so close! Meanwhile, the hated Microsoft, of all people, has probably sold more Xboxes and Media Servers (or whatever they're called) than Apple has sold Minis, Apple TVs, etc. combined. Do we really want to see Microsoft win the living room because of Apple's ideological hardware purity and botched efforts?
There's a lot to like from Apple. A tremendous amount, but I'm not in agreement that the new Mini is the best package that they could have offered, and certainly not for this price.
Thought provoking comment about the Xbox sales v. Mac Mini and AppleTV but I can't really say it's relevant to your argument. The AppleTV is still the best interface for media center appliance. It's lacking but so does the Xbox which also has no Blu-ray and has only gotten features the AppleTV came out with in 2007 as a way of catching up and competing with the PS3 which also focused more on being a connected media appliance.
I don't think the Mac Mini at the previous or original price make it a great HTPC. Even if it had HDMI from the start and had BackRow over the anemic and rotting FrontRow. It's $500 for a waste of a PC, IMO. I think something running A4 with the Imagination chip to decode 1080p in an even smaller package for under $150 would be ideal to connect the user to their home network and the internet.
I don't think adding a Blu-ray to it is the way to go. If you want that then the PS3 seems ideal. It has a pretty slick interface, too, and play .m2ts files and other containers and codecs that Apple would never allow.
I'm just amazed this thing came about without one leaked photo, half assembled case, or whatever reaching the press. It is only a mini, but still, when was the last time you went to Apple's homepage and saw a product completely new and unexpected?
LOL I was just discussing that. We heard of a new Mini with HDMI, but I think that is about it. Apparently they can still keep some leaks at bay.
Nope, apparently nothing changed.
LOL... what counts as "something" besides a new phone and a new Mac?
The IR receiver is the gap at the edge of the slot. The server model, which leaves out the optical drive, has a 'dot' on the front instead.
http://www.apple.com/macmini/server/
(Why a server would need or even benefit from an IR controller is a mystery, however.)
Nice call, that's a clever design. I wouldn't have seen it unless shown it, or viewing it in person.
It does have an IR port. The Apple Remote is a BTO option, and the little IR window is clearly visible on the server version (it's hidden just inside the right side of the optical slot on the standard version). It must be a misprint that the specs page doesn't mention it.
You're right. I guess it's an easy conclusion to jump to when it's not mentioned and the white MacBook reputedly doesn't have it anymore. The IR port is pretty subtle on the
2) Apple has a vested interest in delivering content, including HD, via the iTunes store;
How well is their video business going? Apple hasn't mentioned their sales figures for video in years that I have found.
4) Steve/Apple have a history of killing off "legacy" peripherals;
It seems to me that the mini's optical drive could have been dropped and the SD placed in front. I think the convenience and speed of SD would have made the extra expense of an SD card worthwhile.
The iPhone only exploded (in terms of sales) when it became affordable. If Apple ever wants to Mac to be anything other than niche, it will need to compete with Dell, HP etc.
You mean if they did a payment plan? That is essentially how the iPhone is payed for. Technically the iPhone costs about the same as the Mac Mini.
The footprint is the same because it can stand on end.
And stop being racist about off-shore call centres, they speak English, often a lot better than the natives do.
And Dell's reliability isn't that poor, you really need to stop exaggerating. It's not as if Apple's products don't fail, you only need to look back at the major failures there have been.
It's not racist to state that support for most computer vendors is overseas - and many of them speak very poor English (yes, there are exceptions).
And I'm not exaggerating on the quality of Dell's reliability. Every single survey shows Apple reliability to be on top. Dell is almost always FAR below.
You can choose to buy quality or you can choose to buy cheap. Just don't complain if quality isn't cheap.
I think it's unique to the Mini that they look at what people are doing with them and adapt the unit, whereas with other Macs they seem to have more of a "vision" which they impose on the customer. Or at least, the adaptation isn't so obvious.
If you think it's expensive, don't buy one. That simple. Go ahead and buy your POS cheap box which has a 40% failure rate out of the box and which requires you to talk to someone in Swahili to get support.
Meanwhile, here in the real world, the Mini server is a super value. Please look up the cost of Windows server with unlimited client licenses. Heck, the software alone is considerably more expensive than the Mac Mini server.
The original poster, Mobius, was simply stating his/her opinion. It was entirely reasonable for them to have done so. But every time that you see anyone do something like this, offering a reasoned, informed criticism of some product, there will also be some creep like jragosta, who evidently clings vicariously to this product for the semblance of some personal self-worth, who will come along and slap the original poster upside the head, for not good reason.
jragosta, if you disagree with what Mobious wrote, it is reasonable for you to say so, but only as long as you keep the tone polite and civil. But I have seen people like you react the way that you did, so many times on so many forums, that I am way past the point of being tired of it. If Mobious had in any way singled you out individually and insulted you, then and only then would the tone and content of your response have been appropriate. You have not shed a modicum of light on the question of the relative value of the new Mini.
But every time that you see anyone do something like this, offering a reasoned, informed? criticism of some product,
You sure? Because that's rarely the case on Apple fan sites.
You can reason out anything. Even when you're downright wrong.
The original poster, Mobius, was simply stating his/her opinion. It was entirely reasonable for them to have done so. But every time that you see anyone do something like this, offering a reasoned, informed criticism of some product, there will also be some creep like jragosta, who evidently clings vicariously to this product for the semblance of some personal self-worth, who will come along and slap the original poster upside the head, for not good reason.
jragosta, if you disagree with what Mobious wrote, it is reasonable for you to say so, but only as long as you keep the tone polite and civil. But I have seen people like you react the way that you did, so many times on so many forums, that I am way past the point of being tired of it. If Mobious had in any way singled you out individually and insulted you, then and only then would the tone and content of your response have been appropriate. You have not shed a modicum of light on the question of the relative value of the new Mini.
Who's the one making personal attacks, here? Obviously, it's you, not me. Just read your post above.
My point is very simple. People are whining that it's too small or too big or too expensive or missing features or any one of 1,000 other whining complaints. These forums are filled with these kinds of whining posts over and over and over again.
Do they really think that Apple is too stupid to have considered putting BD into a computer? If so, that's an inane position. If not, then Apple has made their decision for some reason - and Apple undoubtedly knows more about their reasoning than some whiner on AI. These people are so self-centered that they believe that their wishes should somehow take precedence over Apple's R&D and market research. Sorry, but THAT is very tiring.
If they think they can do better, they should go out and start their own computer company. Otherwise, please spare us the whining.
Apple is NOT moving away from Mac OS for us. Stop being ridiculous. The iOS is entry level and for the masses. There will always be an operating system like OS X to program the content. C'mon.
I guess Apple wants to accelerate their revenue base away from Mac OS and towards iOS faster than many of us expected. For $500 people now shop for an iPad, not a Mac.
Base: 2.4GHz, 2GB RAM, 320GB hdd $699
Upgrades: 2.66GHz, 8GB RAM, 500GB hdd $1449
Throw on AppleCare and that upgraded one will run you $1600 for old tech. I built a more powerful PC 2 1/2 years ago for $1500, including buying a new monitor. I much rather would have seen a slight size increase and see Apple move the product line to i5 or better across the board.
Less aluminum, less PCB, etc means less cost to produce. Think what a tower with the same specs would cost. $399? Mac minis don't ship with the MS tax, either; they ship with the considerably higher Apple tax, now.
I like the engineering, but the price is far too high for an entry level machine that sports an obsolete CPU and integrated graphics. I don't think there's enough Kool-Aid drinkers out there to keep this one afloat.
I don't think the Mac Mini at the previous or original price make it a great HTPC. Even if it had HDMI from the start and had BackRow over the anemic and rotting FrontRow. It's $500 for a waste of a PC, IMO. I think something running A4 with the Imagination chip to decode 1080p in an even smaller package for under $150 would be ideal to connect the user to their home network and the internet.
I agree that throwing a Mac Mini at the task is overkill, but so far Apple TV has likewise been underkill. (I got a refurb Mini for $500 for this task, and for $200 more than the Apple TV it has performed quite well and completely side-stepped the limited format issue that has constrained Apple TV. Plus, it can play DVDs, those pesky discs that we'll be stuck with for another decade until decent broadband becomes a reality.)
It seems that there would be a market for an Apple product that accomplishes the following:
1) Plays every form of Apple-supplied content.
2) Plays Netflix instant-play content.
3) Plays YouTube, Hulu, other internet-based content.
4) Plays BD discs.
5) Can be completely controlled using any touch iDevice
5a) Comes with a better bundled remote for out-of-the-box operation.
6) Supports HDMI, DisplayPort, optical audio out
7) Serves as an iPhone/iPod dock
8) Integrate seamlessly with a separate --and entirely optional-- iTunes package that turns a full-funtion Mac into a centralized home media library.
(There are probably a few other items, and Roughly Drafted has likewise offered suggestions in the past.)
These are not fantasy specs -Apple already offers most of this already, and the rest is software. Offer this for $300 without a BD drive, $500 with. Do this, and no one will talk of using a Mini as a media device again.
Miniaturization, as pointed out, reduces costs. Not just in shipping, but manufacturing. That's why your CPU is manufactured on a smaller fab than previous CPUs; lower bill of materials.
Less aluminum, less PCB, etc means less cost to produce. Think what a tower with the same specs would cost. $399? Mac minis don't ship with the MS tax, either; they ship with the considerably higher Apple tax, now.
I like the engineering, but the price is far too high for an entry level machine that sports an obsolete CPU and integrated graphics. I don't think there's enough Kool-Aid drinkers out there to keep this one afloat.
Miniaturization reduces SOME costs, but increases others.
For example, how much is a mobile CPU vs a desktop CPU at the same clock speed? How much is a tiny form factor optical drive vs a larger desktop drive.
The Mini has been specially engineered to meet the size target. That requires the use of laptop components which are more expensive than their desktop equivalents.
I love the 'Apple tax is higher than the MS tax' argument. Why not do some research on how much a server license with unlimited clients costs from Apple vs Microsoft. It's $499 for Apple and quite a few times higher for Microsoft. Heck, Apple will give you an unlimited client license server INCLUDING HARDWARE for less than Microsoft charges for just the software.
Or look at upgrade prices. A full version upgrade of Mac OS X is $129 or 5 licenses for $199. How much is the equivalent for Windows Ultimate?
Apple tax, indeed.
Berating people is uncalled for. The point is that Apple has increased the price. Which is a step backwards.
Higher component costs likely justify such a price.
Ok, $500 extra for 8 gigs of RAM? That's almost 72% of the entire computer's cost just in RAM. "F"-that! I'm so glad you can access the RAM yourself. Otherwise this would be a no-deal for me. When my POS Dell kicks it (or when i'm tired replacing memory chips because of faulty hardware) i'm getting this little baby. I'm so glad i waited to buy this 2 years ago, this update is HUGE!
Higher component costs likely justify such a price.
If by 'component' you mean 'machined aluminum enclosure' then yes. But everything else inside has dropped in price over the years.