Israel/Palestine: What we can agree on (now on a higher level)?!?
I follow discussions on the Israel/Palestine conflict several places on the net and some things most people agree on whether they are liberals, conservatives or socialist:
1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).
2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.
3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.
Say if you agree or disagree with the statements. Please answer to the overall "feel" of the statements and please don´t be anal about the finer details. This is an attempt to find out if there is consensus about 90% of the issue and not an attempt to find the 1% difference between each position.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).
2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.
3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.
Say if you agree or disagree with the statements. Please answer to the overall "feel" of the statements and please don´t be anal about the finer details. This is an attempt to find out if there is consensus about 90% of the issue and not an attempt to find the 1% difference between each position.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
Comments
my take:
[1]Agreed, but there should also be no more confiscation of palestinian property within Israel, an then there is the question of Jerusalem of course...
[2]Agree, but what about military targets? Do the palestinians have a right to strike against them, an if so, in which manner (since the don't have any tanks themselves)...?
[3]Agree, but Sharon is not a one man army... he has much support for his actions...
(not to anal is it?
1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).<hr></blockquote>
Overall I agree. Not too sure about the financial compensation, but sounds good so far.
[quote]2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.<hr></blockquote>
Agree. And as far as what New had to say, take those bombs, take them off of the men and out of the civlian areas and attack military targets, if you are at war with said country. I believe that the point is to end the war though.
[quote]3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.<hr></blockquote>
Not sure at this point. Leaning towards agree on the civilian side and disagree on the fact that Israel has been striking civilians at random like you seem to be stating. No civilians should be attacked by a military presence. If they are throwing rocks or bottles of flaming liquids at military soldiers, they are not innocent bystanders. If they are shooting guns, they are not innocent bystanders. If they are running to get out of the way and hiding behind things or just walking by and observing only they are innocent bystanders.
That may be too nitpicky for you though.
You seriously thing other Arab nations will not help fortify their (Palestinian) military to the point where they will feel confident enough to war against Israel? Sadam will be the first in line to offer support.
Point #1] If the Arabs want to create another state for themselves let them do it on their own lands, NOT ours. And frankly your call to dismantle or abandon ?settlement? is racist pure and simple. If you want to go that route than you should also be calling for the uprooting of Arabs from cities and villages in Israel. And if compensation is to be paid, it should also be paid to those Jews and Israelis forced to leave their homes in Arab states during the years of the conflict.
Point #2] War crimes have been committed. By the Arabs. Those responsible need to be held accountable. Period.
Point #3] I can?t understand the distinction you?re trying to make from point #2.
I know you?d like to settle this politically, but until there is a consensus (and right now there isn?t) between the Arabs and the Jews as to what belong to whom, everything else is just an exercise in futility.
mika.
[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Agreed, that is step one. But once there is a unified contiguous Palestinian territory (as opposed to a randomly spread and divided "Swiss Cheese" collection of bits and pieces), there a whole new slew of problems waiting: First, they will have to assemble a group of administrators/politicians/whatever with the skills to run an independent (and hopefully democratic) state. They have no track record of doing this. Then, what will Palestine be geographically? Can and will it ever be an economically viable state? What natural resources, agricultural land, industry is there, or can there be? Tourism as opposed to terrorism? If not viable economically, then it will become a drain in the region; Israel cannot be expected to support them, and the rest of the Arab world, if history is anything to go on, will not care; those oil-rich states nearby aren't going to lift a finger to help.
What about the terrorists of Hamas, Hezbollah and al Aqsa? Those people aren't going to want to peaceful solution because it means that the object of their irrational hatred, Israel, will still be there. The suicide bombers are just the most public figures in these organizations and their other members get *paid* to do their dirty work, and receive funds from other sources. Just because there is suddenly an independent Palestinian state, this isn't going to stop the extremists in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and the future Palestine, whose goal is to *eliminate* Israel and they won't stop their terrorist tactics until that happens. Look what the Saudis have just done: rather than raise $100 million to help rebuild the devastation inflicted by the IDF in the occupied territories, bury the dead and buy food and medical supplies, instead they intend on funding more violence and suicide bombers.
Then there's Israels' intent. United Nations Resolutions are so much waste paper in Sharon's eyes; he obviously doesn't want a free independent Palestine co-existing in peace with Israel. Since he came to power, the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and villages together with building settlements in disputed areas and occupied territories has accelerated. Sharon is a professional military man, and not stupid; he knew exactly what the results of those policies would be.
[quote]2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.<hr></blockquote>
Agreed. But when extreme religion (gross distortion of original teachings) enters the picture, all hell breaks loose by default. How can those maniacs be somehow re-educated that terror tactics are anti-Islamic?
[quote]3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.<hr></blockquote>
Since terrorism is a major part of the equation re. the Israel-Paelstinian conflict, and the term has been thrown around in the media like so much confetti, here is the Department of Defense definition of terrorism:
"The calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious or ideological".
According to this U.S. definition, both the Palestine extremist organizations *and* Israeli military are guilty of terrorism. When it comes to terrorism, there must not be any double standards; it only goes to shoot in the foot our own mission to rid the world of terror. The Palestine suicide bombers are terrorists and funded by shadowy parties in the Arab world. The Israeli military have used terrorist tactics against Palestinian civilians on a large scale, supplied and funded by U.S. money and weapons. "Moral clarity" is a phrase that has been used over and over by Bush since 9-11. Moral clarity means in this case "fighting terrorism wherever and whenever it occurs". It seems that our "moral clarity" isn't quite so clear as it could, or should be..
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
However this time you did not loose me completely until the end. I still believe that desperate times call for desperate measures. Israel is in desperate times. Palestine is also because they cannot seem to keep their bombs out of Israel's population...
The first and second paragraphs were almost there, after that it went down hill. But many points Samantha raised show a psychological insight that many here fail to see, or failed to admit to. The Brits and the French are not stupid. There?s a reason why they achieved what they achieved on the world?s geopolitical stage. Anyway, I guess what I?m trying to say is that, the whole division of the land the way it has, was a non-starter from day one. The Arabs knew/know it, and so did/do the Jews. The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life. It?s an all or nothing affair. Sorry to say this. I wish it was different, but this game was rigged from the beginning.
Anyone who thinks different is just kidding themselves. There might be interim solutions but they will all collapse from their inherent contradictions.
mika.
P.S. thentro, YOU might think your comments are cute ? they?re not.
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
[quote]1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).
<hr></blockquote>
As an Israeli I will agree with this completely !
[quote]2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.
<hr></blockquote>
Agree here as well , I would also add to this the fact that not only the extreme groups take part in terror . Threads from this mess lead all the way up to Arafat himself.
He is basically trying to use terror as a tool for pressuring Israel into political concessions.
[quote]3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.
<hr></blockquote>
Read this well ,THERE IS NO ISRAELI WAR AGAINST PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS !
Israel is defending itself ! quite a few Israeli soldiers have died because the IDF tries to be so surgical in its operations. I mean compare this with the huge number of civilian casualties the US and NATO have caused in Kosovo and Afghanistan ..... but its easy to pick on the IDF isn't it ? its not like they have anything like the propaganda machine that NATO/US have...
Also remember that many of those buildings you saw destroyed in Jenin have been destroyed as a result of the Palestinian militants booby traping them and trying to explode them on top of Israeli soldiers
Its not Israel's fault that these people choose to hide in the most dense and heavily populated places in the west bank ...
Remember that before the current incursions began there was a serious attempt by Sharon to get a ceasefire agreed on, Anthony Zini was doing his best to get the sides talking and Israel withdrew all its forces back and stopped all aggressive actions against the Palestinians, The Palestinian response was dozens of suicide bombings resulting in the death of more then 150 Israelis.
Since the current operation began there have been 2 suicide attacks, that's 2 in 3 weeks now you can say what you like but Israel's strategy is working at lest in achieving the most important thing to Israelis and that's restoring security.
So the group that's killed the most has the most respect for the sanctity of human life? Interesting logic, that.
You're an unabashed racist.
Self-defense by settling and occupation, wonderful idea.
It's no wonder that there isn't peace in the middleeast. With so many people that are not interested to take a critical look at one self.
I'm lacking words - I just don't belive it.
Shame on you.
Both Hamas/PLO and the Sharon government need to be ousted and replaced by people who aren't terrorists for the mutual benefit of the Israeli and Palestinian people.
Whatever, Noah. Can you be a bit more specific in your arrogance?
[quote]However this time you did not loose me completely until the end. I still believe that desperate times call for desperate measures. Israel is in desperate times. Palestine is also because they cannot seem to keep their bombs out of Israel's population...<hr></blockquote>
Why did I lose you at the end? That last paragraph was most specific, in that I was quoting words that were uttered by President Bush, who I am sure you support, from reading your posts. Or are you saying that you support terrorism by those with whom you sympathise? Or are you so in denial that you feel that the USA is always morally uninpeachable in its actions? Or are you saying that it is impossible for Israel to commit acts of terrorism, no matter what they do?
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
You're an unabashed racist.
Why am I a racist? Because I disagree with you as to what I believe belongs to the Jews and I think belongs to the Arabs?
I think Israel is one of the most diverse society on earth that I know of. I?ve been to many places, and rarely have I seen the diversity of peoples that exists in Israel. When the Ethiopians arrived to Israel in the airlift operations Moses and Solomon I literally wept.
I have friends in Israel from every possible nationality you can think of. Many of then also disagree with me. Some even called my views radical. That?s fine. I don?t think we as Jews ever renounced our claims to our lands no matter what. And I?m certainly not going to start now because some Arabs got it into their heads that Israel belongs to them.
Like I said before, after the fall of Judea to the Romans all the peoples who ruled of our land were basically thieves who stole from thieves who stole from thieves ? and just because a stolen property has been passed around many times, does not make it any less of a stolen property.
mika.
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
How do you oust Hamas? Seriously. They are an oganization devoted to terrorism. Wait let me explain that in a language people here will understand: hamas are innocent freedom fighters!
You can't attack the country Hamas is based in... because they are spread out all over the place. Like Al Queda you need the cooperation of many other countries. but in this case since it is to help the jews, i don't think we'll see the support we saw when we were rooting out Al Queda.
<strong>How about this for something we can all agree on:
Both Hamas/PLO and the Sharon government need to be ousted and replaced by people who aren't terrorists for the mutual benefit of the Israeli and Palestinian people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
all pessimistic exasperation aside, this I completely agree with. It's exactly what needs to happen. Truth is, I bet most of the people being killed on either side can get along just fine with one another. It's their so-called leadership that is doing the most damage. The "leaders" breed these situations.
No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.
3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.
Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?