No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.
3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.
Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
And with this post the well-intentioned, moderate thread degenerates like all the others.
There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.
<strong>There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And groverat, Re your second last statements: I understand this can get emotional. I was really on the verge of losing my cool with you too. But I just think you are totally clueless. No offence. You don?t have an inkling of the kind of people Israel is forced to deal with.
Israelis know and can empathize more than most with your loss as a result of 9/11. But think about what those terrorists would have done had they had a nuclear bomb. If it wasn?t for Israel, that?s the exactly the situation you would have been facing today.
[quote]If it wasn?t for Israel, that?s exactly the situation you would have been facing.<hr></blockquote>
That is an absolute joke.
Israel is powered by the United States, what makes you think that Israel is capable of something the United States isn't?
The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens. If your government would pull back to your own lands then maybe our people wouldn't have to die for your cause. Apparently $3 - $5 billion per year in aid isn't enough for Sharon and his cohorts, you want American blood to pay for your imperialism as well.
Newsflash for you, mika. That area isn't all for Israel. You had no real claim to ANY of it until it was given to you by powerful Western nations.
If you think that some ancient religion entitles you to the land then I fail to see how you are any different from a Palestinian extremist who thinks Israel shouldn't be there.
You obviously don't think Arabs belong in the region so what's the difference between you and a supporter of Hamas?
--
I cannot believe that you actually think that Israel is entitled to the entire area. That just blows my mind to think that BOTH sides are so ignorant and full of hatred.
Your religious beliefs blind you to the realities of international law. There is no dealing with religious zealots like the Israelis and Palestinians, I suppose.
Not at all. The Reagan administration was NOT prepared to pay the price diplomatically. They even rebuked Israel publicly for this to appease the Arab world. While privately of-course it was a different story. Israel was left caring the diplomatic burden all on its own shoulders.
quote:
The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens.
Saudi Arabia is the one you want to thank. They bank roll these guys.
quote:
If you think that some ancient religion entitles you to the land?
Israel was independent state. Religion has almost nothing to do with it.
quote:
Newsflash for you, mika.
Newsflash for you, groverat. I?m NOT religious. Never have been. Never will be.
quote:
You obviously don't think Arabs belong in the region so what's the difference between you and a supporter of Hamas?
?The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life?
I don?t think killing anyone is the way to go here. (Read my previous posts). What I want is complete political, social, economic, and physical separation. If it means withdrawal to the 1967 lines, I?m all for it in principle. Without hate for Israel these people will wither and die.
[quote]Not at all. The Reagan administration was NOT prepared to pay the price diplomatically. They even rebuked Israel publicly for this to appease the Arab world. While privately of-course it was a different story. Israel was left caring the diplomatic burden all on its own shoulders.
[quote]Saudi Arabia is the one you want to thank. They bank roll these guys.<hr></blockquote>
They bankroll them and your nation makes them hate us.
[quote]Israel was independent state. Religion has almost nothing to do with it.<hr></blockquote>
Israel was created for the Jewish people by powerful Western nations on land once belonging to England. Part was marked off for Israel, part was marked off for Palestine. You are saying that all of it should be Israel.
[quote]Newsflash for you, groverat. I?m NOT religious. Never have been. Never will be.<hr></blockquote>
That nation you are in most certainly is.
[quote]?The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life?<hr></blockquote>
More Palestinians are killed than Israelis, what does that tell you about sanctity of human life? How is Jenin an example of the IDF holding human life above all else?
[quote]I don?t think killing anyone is the way to go here. (Read my previous posts). What I want is complete political, social, economic, and physical separation. If it means withdrawal to the 1967 lines, I?m all for it in principle.<hr></blockquote>
Interesting, you just said something completely different above. Which is it?
[quote]Without hate for Israel these people will wither and die.<hr></blockquote>
They were around before Israel was a state and will be around for a long long time.
No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.
3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.
Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, this comment is so moronic i'm embarrassed that you're an American. The terrorist attacks on 9/11 occurred because we have troops based in Saudi Arabia to guard against Iraq. It had NOTHING to do with Israel. Good God, don't you even read a newspaper or watch the news?
So now we abandon an ally because some violent ****head Arabs kill innocent Americans? And then you feel compelled to take their side!? Are for real!? Why don't you move to Europe since you seem to have lost your spine. Was Israel supposed to sit there and watch their people get blown to bits so asswipes like you won't get upset when they retaliate? Would any country do nothing? Israel was in the middle of talking peace while the palestinians were happily killing civilians. As JJ Walker said on Politically Incorrect last night-"The Arabs are our enemies-period!" Right now they are the fomentors of unmitigated violence in this world. And don't give me any shit about Palestinians-the Arabs couldn't give 2 ****ing shits about the Palestinians. They are being used as pawns by Arab dictators and despots to take the focus of their people off themselves. Arab oil money=rich leaders, poor citizens, and uneducated fools who happen to be religious zealots and will do whatever some crazed 'mullah' tells them to.
Get your head out of your ass............................
Groverat, I?m sorry you feel the way you do about Israel. And I really don?t want to pick a fight with you. Unless you are another thentro - an Arab pretending to be Jewish, then pretending to Christian, than pretending to be anything at all.
I lived in Toronto Canada, for six years. I?ve been to the States many times. I love America, and I love Americans. You have a great country with great people. Your country is the most admired and envied in the world. Israelis try to emulate everything American.
It?s true that more Arabs than Israelis have died in this conflict, but that?s because Israel has a more superior military. That doesn?t tell you who initiates these confrontations. Israel gets sucked into these confrontations and the results are what they are.
As far as Jenin, what you see on television is mostly self-inflicted. They booby-trapped many of those building and tried to bring them down as the IDF was conducting house-to-house searches.
There is no inconsistency in my arguments. I think Israel should make a tactical, unilateral withdrawal. Israel should separate itself from the Arabs by all means available. Israel should withhold diplomatic relations with them all, until they recognize our rights to our land. And if after that, Israel is still harassed, I'd reassess my stand on non-violence.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
Whatever, Noah. Can you be a bit more specific in your arrogance<hr></blockquote>
Not without slides... All of your posts are so over the line of reason most times that I am just left wondering how you came to the conclusions you did. And as for arrogance, you may want to take a long look in the mirror there Samantha Joanne Ollendale. You are usually very haughty in your posts, and overbearing for the most part. Even you name for posting the forums speaks volumes. Why the full huge name and not something short and sweet? You may say, well it is my name and that's it, but it seems to be part and parcel with the rest of your posting. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike you, heck, I don't even know much about you outside of this board, you might be a very kind person. But here in this forum and others you can be a bit much.
[quote]Why did I lose you at the end? That last paragraph was most specific, in that I was quoting words that were uttered by President Bush, who I am sure you support, from reading your posts. Or are you saying that you support terrorism by those with whom you sympathise? Or are you so in denial that you feel that the USA is always morally uninpeachable in its actions? Or are you saying that it is impossible for Israel to commit acts of terrorism, no matter what they do?<hr></blockquote>
Any words uttered out of context can be made to stand for that which they were not intended. Someone so down on "christians" that do that with scripture should be able to see the parallel quite quickly. However, it suits your definition of terrorism and you can make it look as though Israel is the bad guy picking on poor Palestine using that quote in your chosen context. I disagree with the premise of your post at the end, that Israel is the terrorist nation for defending itself against terrorism that is so rampant that it is a DAILY event most weeks. Put it in context of what they have to deal with, day in and day out and if you still believe that they are wrong in their actions then move over there and be a suicide bomber, become a martyr and you too can have your face on a t-shirt and win the $25,000 jackpot for your family. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
(was that too far over the line? I bet it was....)
[quote]It had NOTHING to do with Israel.<hr></blockquote>
Bin Laden said quite a few times in his taped propaganda speeches that our helping Israel occupy and settle Palestinian land while killing Palestinians was definitely part of the motive.
And I keep up with the news. I'm a journalism major, after all.
[quote]So now we abandon an ally because some violent ****head Arabs kill innocent Americans?<hr></blockquote>
No, we should abandon our allies if our allies refuse to act in a peaceful manner and if they violently occupy other people's lands.
I don't have anything against Israel or Israelis inherently, but the current actions of the IDF are abhorrent.
[quote]Was Israel supposed to sit there and watch their people get blown to bits so asswipes like you won't get upset when they retaliate?<hr></blockquote>
Their violent incursions into Palestinian territory and occupation of Palestinian lands (including the demolition of Palestinion neighborhoods) haven't stopped the suicide attacks and they've been trying this for 30+ years.
They need to pull out so Palestinians no longer have a reason to blow themselves up at an Israeli discotheque.
I'll leave the rest of your racist diatribe alone.
--
PC-Killa:
[quote]Groverat, I?m sorry you feel the way you do about Israel.<hr></blockquote>
Always the way, isn't it?
If something disagrees with how Israel is handling itself, they MUST be an anti-Semite.
I'm not Arab or Jewish or Christian. I'm Texan.
[quote]It?s true that more Arabs than Israelis have died in this conflict, but that?s because Israel has a more superior military. That doesn?t tell you who initiates these confrontations. Israel gets sucked into these confrontations and the results are what they are.<hr></blockquote>
Interesting... what made the IDF go on a murderous rampage in Jenin?
Someone suicide bombs a bus in Israel and that somehow compels the IDF to flatten a Palestinian village with bulldozers?
The longer your military stays in Palestinian territory the longer these attacks on your civilians will continue. Your nation is violating international law and will not reach a peaceful state until they withdraw to their proper borders.
[quote]I think Israel should make a tactical, unilateral withdrawal.<hr></blockquote>
You said above that the Palestinians should go to Saudi Arabia for land and help and the land in that area should be left for Palestine.
You have changed your stance, but you have come around at the end.
Israel pulls out to their proper territory and compensates Palestinians for destroyed territory (pride stands in the way of this vital step just as pride causes Israel to maintain her violent aggressions).
If, after that, organizations make violent movements towards Israel those organizations should be dealt swift death by international forces.
No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since when did Jews become a religious group? Judaism is a religion. Jew is a race. You are sounding like a racist and a bigot. Check your definitions.
[quote]<strong>3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.</strong><hr></blockquote>
:eek: You can't possibly believe this? Do you? That happened because of many reasons, Israel was a small part, and I feel that they were only thrown into the reasons so that more Muslims would get fired up and join in the cause against America. This is Anti-semitism at it's worst...
[quote]<strong>Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You lost any credibility you had with me with this post. Look at the situation over there. From the safety of our homes it is easy to say, they are bad, stop that you bad people. But they are trying to stop terrorists from killing Israeli citizens on a daily basis. I cannot believe you actually posted the pure garbage you just laid out!
<strong>Bin Laden said quite a few times in his taped propaganda speeches that our helping Israel occupy and settle Palestinian land while killing Palestinians was definitely part of the motive.
And I keep up with the news. I'm a journalism major, after all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I covered this in my previous post to you.
And you being a journalism major, is that supposed to prove your unbiased nature? Laughable at best.
[quote]<strong>No, we should abandon our allies if our allies refuse to act in a peaceful manner and if they violently occupy other people's lands.
I don't have anything against Israel or Israelis inherently, but the current actions of the IDF are abhorrent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's not how it looks from here. You have a major problem with Israelis.
The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens
Apparently $3 - $5 billion per year in aid isn't enough for Sharon and his cohorts, you want American blood to pay for your imperialism as well.
There is no dealing with religious zealots like the Israelis and Palestinians, I suppose.
They bankroll them and your nation makes them hate us.
Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago.
There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.
Sounds like a reasonable person who is just paying fair and unbiased journalist to me...
[quote]<strong>Their violent incursions into Palestinian territory and occupation of Palestinian lands (including the demolition of Palestinion neighborhoods) haven't stopped the suicide attacks and they've been trying this for 30+ years.
They need to pull out so Palestinians no longer have a reason to blow themselves up at an Israeli discotheque.
I'll leave the rest of your racist diatribe alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No they have not stopped them, but they have slowed them down considerably. However, whey they do pull back it only increases the frequency and intensity of the attacks. But being a journalist in training this has not escaped your watchful eye.
[quote]<strong>Always the way, isn't it?
If something disagrees with how Israel is handling itself, they MUST be an anti-Semite.
I'm not Arab or Jewish or Christian. I'm Texan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And a Journalist too. Un-impeachable credentials. Not all who disagree with how Israel handles itself is anti-semite. But when they do it by spewing what you have been spewing, it sure gives that impression.
[quote]<strong>Interesting... what made the IDF go on a murderous rampage in Jenin?
Someone suicide bombs a bus in Israel and that somehow compels the IDF to flatten a Palestinian village with bulldozers?
The longer your military stays in Palestinian territory the longer these attacks on your civilians will continue. Your nation is violating international law and will not reach a peaceful state until they withdraw to their proper borders.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting. All it was is just one suicide bomb against one bus. There was no conflict before then. No suicide bombs days, or even possibly hours before on many occasions. This has not been culminating over time. How this has escaped your journalistic eagle eye I am unsure...
And now you are a judge too. I can even hear the gavel. "GUILTY! You are hereby fined and shall be confined to your country until you can abide by international law. And don't hurt those poor Palestinians anymore. After all, they have a few more Israelis to go before you guys are even..."
[quote]<strong>If, after that, organizations make violent movements towards Israel those organizations should be dealt swift death by international forces.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like they have before? Oh wait, nobody did anything but "Tsk, tsk, tsk." Why should Israel not be allowed to defend itself? Is it incapable? Obviously not. You seem to think that they do not merit this basic national right. How can you believe this? It is ok for international forces to deal "Swift death" to these terrorists, but not Israel? Don't look now, your bias is showing again...
More Palestinians than Jews have died in this conflict, that's a fact, how does that make me racist?
How does a semantic quibble over the word "Jew" make me racist?
How does knowing that Israel is violating international laws make me racist?
I have no strong love for Palestinians. I am still angry about those ****ing bastards that celebrated in the streets after the 9/11 attacks.
---
[quote]And you being a journalism major, is that supposed to prove your unbiased nature? Laughable at best.<hr></blockquote>
Where did I say that I was unbiased? All I said with relation to my field of study was that I kept up with the news.
[quote]*my own blah blah stuff*
Sounds like a reasonable person who is just paying fair and unbiased journalist to me<hr></blockquote>
What the hell are you talking about?
Is this an article for a newspaper I'm writing? Am I not allowed to have personal opinions?
If you find me saying that kind of stuff in a publication in a non-editorial section then fine, but as it stands now I'm expressing an opinion on an internet message board, not the New York Times front page.
[quote]However, whey they do pull back it only increases the frequency and intensity of the attacks. But being a journalist in training this has not escaped your watchful eye.<hr></blockquote>
Do you remember a few years back when things weren't as bad as they are now? Remember how this latest Intifada started? Sure you do.
Not that things were peaceful before, but they were better than they are now.
[quote]All it was is just one suicide bomb against one bus. There was no conflict before then. No suicide bombs days, or even possibly hours before on many occasions. This has not been culminating over time.<hr></blockquote>
That was merely an example.
Of course this has been going on for years. If it makes you feel better I'll say, "Palestinians blow up some busses so the IDF flattens some villages."
There, I pluralized those two words, feel better?
[quote]And now you are a judge too. I can even hear the gavel.<hr></blockquote>
I haven't been the judge, I just know the ruling.
The U.N. was the judge.
[quote]It is ok for international forces to deal "Swift death" to these terrorists, but not Israel? Don't look now, your bias is showing again...<hr></blockquote>
Israel doesn't deal swift death to these organizations. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory for over 30 years. If that fits under your definition of swift then I don't know what to tell you.
If you want an example of something that could be considered swift (compared to what Israel is doing now) look at the U.S. & Co's actions in Afghanistan. The really violent and widespread conflict didn't last more than a week or so.
Forget it Groverat, can't see it when it is pointed out to you rather bluntly.
Your integrity counts whether you are on a PC message board or writing an article in the NYT. You may regret your posts here if it is linked to you some years later and spread all over the internet to discredit your opinions and "unbiased journalistic opinions".
<strong>Israel doesn't deal swift death to these organizations. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory for over 30 years. If that fits under your definition of swift then I don't know what to tell you.
If you want an example of something that could be considered swift (compared to what Israel is doing now) look at the U.S. & Co's actions in Afghanistan. The really violent and widespread conflict didn't last more than a week or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Umm, Al Quaeda still exists and is now pulling the same thing the Palestinians are pulling. Hide out in civilian areas and attack from there. We just did what we would not let Israel do. Wiped out the head of Al Queda and the major following as well. They hid in populated areas, so some innocents got hurt. And guess what? We were labeled as terrorists by them and the international community as well in many instances. One difference, we put a new government in place and they will get to fight the 30 year feud to keep power. I will not be surprised if they start resorting to suicide bombings or attacks against us to make a point. Oh wait, WTC attacks... But that was before Afghanistan so we are truly safe now.
Bad analogy on my part, perhaps, but it wasn't meant to mirror the situation exactly (since finding a perfect analogy for the Israel/Palestine conflict isn't easy).
Also, I don't remember Israel ever fighting a proper war with Palestine, so I don't think that Israel has to fight them for "power". Wasn't this just about terrorism, or IS it really about control of the area?
I remember there being war with a bunch of other Arab nations, though, so why isn't Israel setting up shop in Egypt, Syria, etc... if it's really about keeping their wartime enemies at bay?
<strong>Bad analogy on my part, perhaps, but it wasn't meant to mirror the situation exactly (since finding a perfect analogy for the Israel/Palestine conflict isn't easy).
Also, I don't remember Israel ever fighting a proper war with Palestine, so I don't think that Israel has to fight them for "power". Wasn't this just about terrorism, or IS it really about control of the area?
I remember there being war with a bunch of other Arab nations, though, so why isn't Israel setting up shop in Egypt, Syria, etc... if it's really about keeping their wartime enemies at bay?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel is not trying to keep power, they are trying to keep their citizens alive. However, if you believe the Arafat letter saying that Israel is a recognized nation at least they don;t have to worry about the PLO Charter mandate that they be obliterated anymore.
The war was with a bunch of nation together with Palestinians that were massing up to invade and destroy Israel. They got their butts stomped but proper. However, the only one of the group that has hung around and pestered Israel with bombs and such has been Palestine for the most part. They had some legitimate gripes, but blowing up civilians is not the way to express them. Pretty much negates their case now IMO. If they stop blowing people up in discos and on busses and Israel continues thier incursions and "occupation" then you have reason to froth and foam at them.
Comments
<strong>
No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.
3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.
Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
And with this post the well-intentioned, moderate thread degenerates like all the others.
yer a sissy and ain't long fer this world.
toughen up,
cuss
<strong>There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good. Then we agree.
Israelis know and can empathize more than most with your loss as a result of 9/11. But think about what those terrorists would have done had they had a nuclear bomb. If it wasn?t for Israel, that?s the exactly the situation you would have been facing today.
mika.
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
That is an absolute joke.
Israel is powered by the United States, what makes you think that Israel is capable of something the United States isn't?
The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens. If your government would pull back to your own lands then maybe our people wouldn't have to die for your cause. Apparently $3 - $5 billion per year in aid isn't enough for Sharon and his cohorts, you want American blood to pay for your imperialism as well.
Newsflash for you, mika. That area isn't all for Israel. You had no real claim to ANY of it until it was given to you by powerful Western nations.
If you think that some ancient religion entitles you to the land then I fail to see how you are any different from a Palestinian extremist who thinks Israel shouldn't be there.
You obviously don't think Arabs belong in the region so what's the difference between you and a supporter of Hamas?
--
I cannot believe that you actually think that Israel is entitled to the entire area. That just blows my mind to think that BOTH sides are so ignorant and full of hatred.
Your religious beliefs blind you to the realities of international law. There is no dealing with religious zealots like the Israelis and Palestinians, I suppose.
That is an absolute joke.
Not at all. The Reagan administration was NOT prepared to pay the price diplomatically. They even rebuked Israel publicly for this to appease the Arab world. While privately of-course it was a different story. Israel was left caring the diplomatic burden all on its own shoulders.
quote:
The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens.
Saudi Arabia is the one you want to thank. They bank roll these guys.
quote:
If you think that some ancient religion entitles you to the land?
Israel was independent state. Religion has almost nothing to do with it.
quote:
Newsflash for you, mika.
Newsflash for you, groverat. I?m NOT religious. Never have been. Never will be.
quote:
You obviously don't think Arabs belong in the region so what's the difference between you and a supporter of Hamas?
?The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life?
I don?t think killing anyone is the way to go here. (Read my previous posts). What I want is complete political, social, economic, and physical separation. If it means withdrawal to the 1967 lines, I?m all for it in principle. Without hate for Israel these people will wither and die.
mika.
[quote]Saudi Arabia is the one you want to thank. They bank roll these guys.<hr></blockquote>
They bankroll them and your nation makes them hate us.
[quote]Israel was independent state. Religion has almost nothing to do with it.<hr></blockquote>
Israel was created for the Jewish people by powerful Western nations on land once belonging to England. Part was marked off for Israel, part was marked off for Palestine. You are saying that all of it should be Israel.
[quote]Newsflash for you, groverat. I?m NOT religious. Never have been. Never will be.<hr></blockquote>
That nation you are in most certainly is.
[quote]?The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life?<hr></blockquote>
More Palestinians are killed than Israelis, what does that tell you about sanctity of human life? How is Jenin an example of the IDF holding human life above all else?
[quote]I don?t think killing anyone is the way to go here. (Read my previous posts). What I want is complete political, social, economic, and physical separation. If it means withdrawal to the 1967 lines, I?m all for it in principle.<hr></blockquote>
Interesting, you just said something completely different above. Which is it?
[quote]Without hate for Israel these people will wither and die.<hr></blockquote>
They were around before Israel was a state and will be around for a long long time.
<strong>
No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.
3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.
Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, this comment is so moronic i'm embarrassed that you're an American. The terrorist attacks on 9/11 occurred because we have troops based in Saudi Arabia to guard against Iraq. It had NOTHING to do with Israel. Good God, don't you even read a newspaper or watch the news?
So now we abandon an ally because some violent ****head Arabs kill innocent Americans? And then you feel compelled to take their side!? Are for real!? Why don't you move to Europe since you seem to have lost your spine. Was Israel supposed to sit there and watch their people get blown to bits so asswipes like you won't get upset when they retaliate? Would any country do nothing? Israel was in the middle of talking peace while the palestinians were happily killing civilians. As JJ Walker said on Politically Incorrect last night-"The Arabs are our enemies-period!" Right now they are the fomentors of unmitigated violence in this world. And don't give me any shit about Palestinians-the Arabs couldn't give 2 ****ing shits about the Palestinians. They are being used as pawns by Arab dictators and despots to take the focus of their people off themselves. Arab oil money=rich leaders, poor citizens, and uneducated fools who happen to be religious zealots and will do whatever some crazed 'mullah' tells them to.
Get your head out of your ass............................
I lived in Toronto Canada, for six years. I?ve been to the States many times. I love America, and I love Americans. You have a great country with great people. Your country is the most admired and envied in the world. Israelis try to emulate everything American.
It?s true that more Arabs than Israelis have died in this conflict, but that?s because Israel has a more superior military. That doesn?t tell you who initiates these confrontations. Israel gets sucked into these confrontations and the results are what they are.
As far as Jenin, what you see on television is mostly self-inflicted. They booby-trapped many of those building and tried to bring them down as the IDF was conducting house-to-house searches.
There is no inconsistency in my arguments. I think Israel should make a tactical, unilateral withdrawal. Israel should separate itself from the Arabs by all means available. Israel should withhold diplomatic relations with them all, until they recognize our rights to our land. And if after that, Israel is still harassed, I'd reassess my stand on non-violence.
mika.
Whatever, Noah. Can you be a bit more specific in your arrogance<hr></blockquote>
Not without slides...
[quote]Why did I lose you at the end? That last paragraph was most specific, in that I was quoting words that were uttered by President Bush, who I am sure you support, from reading your posts. Or are you saying that you support terrorism by those with whom you sympathise? Or are you so in denial that you feel that the USA is always morally uninpeachable in its actions? Or are you saying that it is impossible for Israel to commit acts of terrorism, no matter what they do?<hr></blockquote>
Any words uttered out of context can be made to stand for that which they were not intended. Someone so down on "christians" that do that with scripture should be able to see the parallel quite quickly. However, it suits your definition of terrorism and you can make it look as though Israel is the bad guy picking on poor Palestine using that quote in your chosen context. I disagree with the premise of your post at the end, that Israel is the terrorist nation for defending itself against terrorism that is so rampant that it is a DAILY event most weeks. Put it in context of what they have to deal with, day in and day out and if you still believe that they are wrong in their actions then move over there and be a suicide bomber, become a martyr and you too can have your face on a t-shirt and win the $25,000 jackpot for your family. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
(was that too far over the line? I bet it was....)
Bin Laden said quite a few times in his taped propaganda speeches that our helping Israel occupy and settle Palestinian land while killing Palestinians was definitely part of the motive.
And I keep up with the news. I'm a journalism major, after all.
[quote]So now we abandon an ally because some violent ****head Arabs kill innocent Americans?<hr></blockquote>
No, we should abandon our allies if our allies refuse to act in a peaceful manner and if they violently occupy other people's lands.
I don't have anything against Israel or Israelis inherently, but the current actions of the IDF are abhorrent.
[quote]Was Israel supposed to sit there and watch their people get blown to bits so asswipes like you won't get upset when they retaliate?<hr></blockquote>
Their violent incursions into Palestinian territory and occupation of Palestinian lands (including the demolition of Palestinion neighborhoods) haven't stopped the suicide attacks and they've been trying this for 30+ years.
They need to pull out so Palestinians no longer have a reason to blow themselves up at an Israeli discotheque.
I'll leave the rest of your racist diatribe alone.
--
PC-Killa:
[quote]Groverat, I?m sorry you feel the way you do about Israel.<hr></blockquote>
Always the way, isn't it?
If something disagrees with how Israel is handling itself, they MUST be an anti-Semite.
I'm not Arab or Jewish or Christian. I'm Texan.
[quote]It?s true that more Arabs than Israelis have died in this conflict, but that?s because Israel has a more superior military. That doesn?t tell you who initiates these confrontations. Israel gets sucked into these confrontations and the results are what they are.<hr></blockquote>
Interesting... what made the IDF go on a murderous rampage in Jenin?
Someone suicide bombs a bus in Israel and that somehow compels the IDF to flatten a Palestinian village with bulldozers?
The longer your military stays in Palestinian territory the longer these attacks on your civilians will continue. Your nation is violating international law and will not reach a peaceful state until they withdraw to their proper borders.
[quote]I think Israel should make a tactical, unilateral withdrawal.<hr></blockquote>
You said above that the Palestinians should go to Saudi Arabia for land and help and the land in that area should be left for Palestine.
You have changed your stance, but you have come around at the end.
Israel pulls out to their proper territory and compensates Palestinians for destroyed territory (pride stands in the way of this vital step just as pride causes Israel to maintain her violent aggressions).
If, after that, organizations make violent movements towards Israel those organizations should be dealt swift death by international forces.
<strong>
No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since when did Jews become a religious group? Judaism is a religion. Jew is a race. You are sounding like a racist and a bigot. Check your definitions.
[quote]<strong>3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.</strong><hr></blockquote>
:eek: You can't possibly believe this? Do you? That happened because of many reasons, Israel was a small part, and I feel that they were only thrown into the reasons so that more Muslims would get fired up and join in the cause against America. This is Anti-semitism at it's worst...
[quote]<strong>Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You lost any credibility you had with me with this post. Look at the situation over there. From the safety of our homes it is easy to say, they are bad, stop that you bad people. But they are trying to stop terrorists from killing Israeli citizens on a daily basis. I cannot believe you actually posted the pure garbage you just laid out!
<strong>Bin Laden said quite a few times in his taped propaganda speeches that our helping Israel occupy and settle Palestinian land while killing Palestinians was definitely part of the motive.
And I keep up with the news. I'm a journalism major, after all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I covered this in my previous post to you.
And you being a journalism major, is that supposed to prove your unbiased nature? Laughable at best.
[quote]<strong>No, we should abandon our allies if our allies refuse to act in a peaceful manner and if they violently occupy other people's lands.
I don't have anything against Israel or Israelis inherently, but the current actions of the IDF are abhorrent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's not how it looks from here. You have a major problem with Israelis.
- The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens
- Apparently $3 - $5 billion per year in aid isn't enough for Sharon and his cohorts, you want American blood to pay for your imperialism as well.
- There is no dealing with religious zealots like the Israelis and Palestinians, I suppose.
- They bankroll them and your nation makes them hate us.
- Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago.
- There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.
Sounds like a reasonable person who is just paying fair and unbiased journalist to me...[quote]<strong>Their violent incursions into Palestinian territory and occupation of Palestinian lands (including the demolition of Palestinion neighborhoods) haven't stopped the suicide attacks and they've been trying this for 30+ years.
They need to pull out so Palestinians no longer have a reason to blow themselves up at an Israeli discotheque.
I'll leave the rest of your racist diatribe alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No they have not stopped them, but they have slowed them down considerably. However, whey they do pull back it only increases the frequency and intensity of the attacks. But being a journalist in training this has not escaped your watchful eye.
[quote]<strong>Always the way, isn't it?
If something disagrees with how Israel is handling itself, they MUST be an anti-Semite.
I'm not Arab or Jewish or Christian. I'm Texan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And a Journalist too. Un-impeachable credentials. Not all who disagree with how Israel handles itself is anti-semite. But when they do it by spewing what you have been spewing, it sure gives that impression.
[quote]<strong>Interesting... what made the IDF go on a murderous rampage in Jenin?
Someone suicide bombs a bus in Israel and that somehow compels the IDF to flatten a Palestinian village with bulldozers?
The longer your military stays in Palestinian territory the longer these attacks on your civilians will continue. Your nation is violating international law and will not reach a peaceful state until they withdraw to their proper borders.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting. All it was is just one suicide bomb against one bus. There was no conflict before then. No suicide bombs days, or even possibly hours before on many occasions. This has not been culminating over time. How this has escaped your journalistic eagle eye I am unsure...
And now you are a judge too. I can even hear the gavel. "GUILTY! You are hereby fined and shall be confined to your country until you can abide by international law. And don't hurt those poor Palestinians anymore. After all, they have a few more Israelis to go before you guys are even..."
[quote]<strong>If, after that, organizations make violent movements towards Israel those organizations should be dealt swift death by international forces.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like they have before? Oh wait, nobody did anything but "Tsk, tsk, tsk." Why should Israel not be allowed to defend itself? Is it incapable? Obviously not. You seem to think that they do not merit this basic national right. How can you believe this? It is ok for international forces to deal "Swift death" to these terrorists, but not Israel? Don't look now, your bias is showing again...
[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
How does a semantic quibble over the word "Jew" make me racist?
How does knowing that Israel is violating international laws make me racist?
I have no strong love for Palestinians. I am still angry about those ****ing bastards that celebrated in the streets after the 9/11 attacks.
---
[quote]And you being a journalism major, is that supposed to prove your unbiased nature? Laughable at best.<hr></blockquote>
Where did I say that I was unbiased? All I said with relation to my field of study was that I kept up with the news.
[quote]*my own blah blah stuff*
Sounds like a reasonable person who is just paying fair and unbiased journalist to me<hr></blockquote>
What the hell are you talking about?
Is this an article for a newspaper I'm writing? Am I not allowed to have personal opinions?
If you find me saying that kind of stuff in a publication in a non-editorial section then fine, but as it stands now I'm expressing an opinion on an internet message board, not the New York Times front page.
[quote]However, whey they do pull back it only increases the frequency and intensity of the attacks. But being a journalist in training this has not escaped your watchful eye.<hr></blockquote>
Do you remember a few years back when things weren't as bad as they are now? Remember how this latest Intifada started? Sure you do.
(*<a href="http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/16ec5d0cfab45921852569ae00502c5e!OpenDocument"; target="_blank">hint</a>* - it involves Ariel Sharon, over 1,000 Israeli troops and al-Haram ash-Sharif)
Not that things were peaceful before, but they were better than they are now.
[quote]All it was is just one suicide bomb against one bus. There was no conflict before then. No suicide bombs days, or even possibly hours before on many occasions. This has not been culminating over time.<hr></blockquote>
That was merely an example.
Of course this has been going on for years. If it makes you feel better I'll say, "Palestinians blow up some busses so the IDF flattens some villages."
There, I pluralized those two words, feel better?
[quote]And now you are a judge too. I can even hear the gavel.<hr></blockquote>
I haven't been the judge, I just know the ruling.
The U.N. was the judge.
[quote]It is ok for international forces to deal "Swift death" to these terrorists, but not Israel? Don't look now, your bias is showing again...<hr></blockquote>
Israel doesn't deal swift death to these organizations. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory for over 30 years. If that fits under your definition of swift then I don't know what to tell you.
If you want an example of something that could be considered swift (compared to what Israel is doing now) look at the U.S. & Co's actions in Afghanistan. The really violent and widespread conflict didn't last more than a week or so.
Your integrity counts whether you are on a PC message board or writing an article in the NYT. You may regret your posts here if it is linked to you some years later and spread all over the internet to discredit your opinions and "unbiased journalistic opinions".
Israeli forces have just pulled out of Jenin after what looks like a fairly large massacre.
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1938000/1938582.stm"; target="_blank">The pullout began on Thursday, as a UN envoy visiting the camp described the situation there as "horrific beyond belief".</a>
<strong>Israel doesn't deal swift death to these organizations. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory for over 30 years. If that fits under your definition of swift then I don't know what to tell you.
If you want an example of something that could be considered swift (compared to what Israel is doing now) look at the U.S. & Co's actions in Afghanistan. The really violent and widespread conflict didn't last more than a week or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Umm, Al Quaeda still exists and is now pulling the same thing the Palestinians are pulling. Hide out in civilian areas and attack from there. We just did what we would not let Israel do. Wiped out the head of Al Queda and the major following as well. They hid in populated areas, so some innocents got hurt. And guess what? We were labeled as terrorists by them and the international community as well in many instances. One difference, we put a new government in place and they will get to fight the 30 year feud to keep power. I will not be surprised if they start resorting to suicide bombings or attacks against us to make a point. Oh wait, WTC attacks... But that was before Afghanistan so we are truly safe now.
Also, I don't remember Israel ever fighting a proper war with Palestine, so I don't think that Israel has to fight them for "power". Wasn't this just about terrorism, or IS it really about control of the area?
I remember there being war with a bunch of other Arab nations, though, so why isn't Israel setting up shop in Egypt, Syria, etc... if it's really about keeping their wartime enemies at bay?
<strong>Bad analogy on my part, perhaps, but it wasn't meant to mirror the situation exactly (since finding a perfect analogy for the Israel/Palestine conflict isn't easy).
Also, I don't remember Israel ever fighting a proper war with Palestine, so I don't think that Israel has to fight them for "power". Wasn't this just about terrorism, or IS it really about control of the area?
I remember there being war with a bunch of other Arab nations, though, so why isn't Israel setting up shop in Egypt, Syria, etc... if it's really about keeping their wartime enemies at bay?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel is not trying to keep power, they are trying to keep their citizens alive. However, if you believe the Arafat letter saying that Israel is a recognized nation at least they don;t have to worry about the PLO Charter mandate that they be obliterated anymore.
The war was with a bunch of nation together with Palestinians that were massing up to invade and destroy Israel. They got their butts stomped but proper. However, the only one of the group that has hung around and pestered Israel with bombs and such has been Palestine for the most part. They had some legitimate gripes, but blowing up civilians is not the way to express them. Pretty much negates their case now IMO. If they stop blowing people up in discos and on busses and Israel continues thier incursions and "occupation" then you have reason to froth and foam at them.