My point is that nobody here has expressed those veiws. While people like PC^KILLA thinks that all arabs are scumbags, I think most of the people arguing for the palestinian cause here have nothing against jews. I have no problem with condeming palestinian terror, and the actions of organisations like hamas, jihad and the al-aqsa brigade.
but these organisations do not represent all palestinians. Just like Sharon isn't the representative of all israelis. There are moderates on both sides that do a great job, and some of them are indeed members of the PLO. (and btw, we've adressed the charter several times.)
<strong>My point is that nobody has protected those views. While people like PC^KILLA thinks that all arabs are scumbags, I think most of the people arguing for the palestinian cause here have nothing against jews. I have no problem with condeming palestinian terror, and the actions of organisations like hamas, jihad and the al-aqsa brigade.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Condeming is one thing (very very easy as chairman Araft knows) but preventing it or finding ways to secure against it is a totally different thing !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
but these organisations do not represent all palestinians. Just like Sharon isn't the representative of all israelis.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is absolutely NO moral equivalence between Sharon and people like Hamas ! if you claim this prove it !
Have you seen this recent poll by an organization affiliated with Bir Zait west bank university ? this is a wholly configured and executed poll by Palestinians for Palestinians so you can't say- oh but its not true the Israelis must have fiddled the results.... just a few interesting results from that long poll:
60.9% do not think OBL was the man behind 9/11
84.6% support armed attacks against Israeli targets.
91.1% do not define The assassination of Israeli tourism Minister Rechavam Zeevi by Palestinians a terrorist act.
59.2% do not define 9/11 attacks as terrorism.
72% answered no to the question- If Palestinians would use chemical or biological weapons against Israel, would you consider it to be an act of terror?
86.5% do not define the act of killing of 21 Israeli youths by a Palestinian who exploded himself at the Dolphinarium night club in Tel Aviv as terrorism
There are moderates on both sides that do a great job, and some of them are indeed members of the PLO. (and btw, we've adressed the charter several times.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeh ? where are these people ? where are their web sites ? how come we all keep quoting Israeli sites ( Betzelem, Haaretz...etc) when we want the facts and not Palestinian ones ?
Where is the moderate Palestinian leadership condemning the suicides (not still blaming them on Israel and half excusing them) and offering moderate and reasonable solutions ? where are the serious Palestinian scholars who are willing to address to constant warping of history by Palestinian propaganda ?
I challenge you to name me these people you mention and prove to me that they make a difference to Palestinian attitudes.
Also none of you have still answered by question about Israel's security in case of a withdrawal
or have addressed the fact of the overwhelming bias against Israel in the Arab world which seems to simply follow the line of -' if it be broken blame Israel, if it be very broken blame the US.'
Arafat used to be a terrorist, probably still is. Sharon used to be a terrorist, still is.
i think that sums up your mentality-Arafat is PROBABLY a terrorist, but Sharon IS. How moronic. Arafat started the violence, always has everywhere he's been. Sharon may be a hothead, but if Arafat didn't create the violence Sharon would have nowhere to go but the bargaining table............................................. ..................
Hard to prove if Arafat still is, he's holed up in a complex surrounded by Israelis. Sharon quite obviously still is.
They are both detrimental to the peace process, what more do you want from me? I don't give a shit about either of them, they are both war criminals and murderers.
Arafat used to be a terrorist, probably still is. Sharon used to be a terrorist, still is.
i think that sums up your mentality-Arafat is PROBABLY a terrorist, but Sharon IS. How moronic. Arafat started the violence, always has everywhere he's been. Sharon may be a hothead, but if Arafat didn't create the violence Sharon would have nowhere to go but the bargaining table............................................. ..................</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can guarantee you one thing ! if Arafat hadn't started the violence and the Palestinians wouldn't have started the Intefada Sharon would never have been near to becoming PM in Israel he wouldn't have a sliming chance .... never ever never.....
And BTW New, Groverat, i'm still waiting for some meaningful response for my posts ....
[quote]There is absolutely NO moral equivalence between Sharon and people like Hamas ! if you claim this prove it !<hr></blockquote>
The equality lies in that the perception of Sharon and Hamas is pretty much the same on each side. To israelis Hamas is terror, to palestinians Sharon is the same. How can you blame them. Have you read <a href="http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ign0"; target="_blank">this</a>? Even if he wasn't guilty, you'll have a darn hard time explaining that to a palestinian after the official Israeli inquiry wrote what it did...
[quote]Have you seen this recent poll by an organization affiliated with Bir Zait west bank university ?<hr></blockquote>
The results are sad, I agree. But not surprising. If you polled israeli students on if war crimes where commited in Jenin, I'd bet they almost all disagree. While it is obviously to early to draw decisive conclusions at this point.
[quote]Yeh ? where are these people ? where are their web sites ? how come we all keep quoting Israeli sites ( Betzelem, Haaretz...etc) when we want the facts and not Palestinian ones ?<hr></blockquote>
I quote only israeli, jewish or international sources because if I were to post a palestinian source, I'd be shut down imidiatly by you guys for posting "arab-anti-semit-propaganda". I posted a quote by Edward Said once in a small part of a longer post, and that was ofcourse the only thing PC^KILLA commented on...
[quote]I challenge you to name me these people you mention and prove to me that they make a difference to Palestinian attitudes.<hr></blockquote>
here are some linkes to people and organisations that deserve better than to be labeled "propaganda tools"...
The equality lies in that the perception of Sharon and Hamas is pretty much the same on each side. To israelis Hamas is terror, to palestinians Sharon is the same. How can you blame them. Have you read this? Even if he wasn't guilty, you'll have a darn hard time explaining that to a palestinian after the official Israeli inquiry wrote what it did...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know Arabs despise Sharon, not only for his Lebanese dark side but also for the many humiliating defeats he has given them in the battle field.. but that doesn't mean you guys shouldn't know any better.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The results are sad, I agree. But not surprising. If you polled israeli students on if war crimes where committed in Jenin, I'd bet they almost all disagree. While it is obviously to early to draw decisive conclusions at this point.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
this is totally different... ( and BTW you know i think NO war crimes were committed in Jenin) because most Israelis still see a solution by negotiation, most believe Israel should be out of the OT and most agree that a palestinian state should be established. many israelis openly deplore Sharon's tactics and some reserve officers and soldiers refuse to serve in the OT and prefer to go to prison...compare this to the 84% of palestinians who think suicide bombings are good and the 68% who do not think peace is possible until Israel is gone.....Do you see where i'm coming from and why am i so paranoid about trusting these people ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I quote only israeli, jewish or international sources because if I were to post a palestinian source, I'd be shut down imidiately by you guys for posting "arab-anti-semit-propaganda". I posted a quote by Edward Said once in a small part of a longer post, and that was ofcourse the only thing PC^KILLA commented on...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry for being critical but you are (rightly so) just as bad ( remember your unwillingness to accept IDF evidence ?)
I would LOVE to see some serious sober palestinian opinions ! feel free to post...
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
here are some links to people and organizations that deserve better than to be labeled "propaganda tools"...
Unfourtunatly i was able to find very little real substance in these sources beyond the usual victim of occupation rhetoric you usually get from these kind of sites Sari Nuseibeh is a clear exception and I have a great deal of respect for this man but the rest is less then inspiring I'm afraid...
Bridges For Peace is a blatant propaganda site. Read the description of what the organization is. I at least try to stick to actual media outlets, no religious groups.
--
Rashumon:
What posts do you want me to respond to, the ones you have directed at New?
<strong>Bridges For Peace is a blatant propaganda site. Read the description of what the organization is. I at least try to stick to actual media outlets, no religious groups. </strong><hr></blockquote>
So it is not possible that a "religious group" could possibly know what was going on or report it correctly. Especially not since their headquarters are in Israel, not since they are exposed first hand to what you only talk about and read in the news sometimes second and third hand. I am more inclined to believe this group than CNN for the most part.
<strong>Hard to prove if Arafat still is, he's holed up in a complex surrounded by Israelis. Sharon quite obviously still is.
They are both detrimental to the peace process, what more do you want from me? I don't give a shit about either of them, they are both war criminals and murderers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really, since he is holed up and prevented from free movement he is no longer a terrorist? Success!!!
The only one detrimental to the peace process is Arafat when he walked away from the table so many years ago and has not been back for real since. Hard to take him seriuosly when he so obviusly is not interested, no matter what he states publicly, his actions speak much more clearly...
Bridges For Peace - is a Jerusalem-based, multi-faceted, Christian organization dedicated to the building of sincere relationships between the Christian and Jewish communities, while encouraging greater concern for the land and people of Israel. It is our desire to see Christians and Jews working side by side for better understanding and a more secure Israel.
Sounds like a regular objective news outlet.
--
Replace the word "Arafat" with "Sharon" in that last paragraph and it would still make perfect sense.
[quote]The only one detrimental to the peace process is Arafat when he walked away from the table so many years ago and has not been back for real since. Hard to take him seriuosly when he so obviusly is not interested, no matter what he states publicly, his actions speak much more clearly... <hr></blockquote>
Er... that wasn't Ariel Sharon and a phalanx of bodyguards visiting the Har'm Al-Sharif (ace boon sacred place) on Eid (ace boon Muslim holy day) before the last election was it?
Cor blimey, some might say he was trying to stir people up and step in, strong man, to win the election! And finish off what he started when he was Defence Minister!
Er... that wasn't Ariel Sharon and a phalanx of bodyguards visiting the Har'm Al-Sharif (ace boon sacred place) on Eid (ace boon Muslim holy day) before the last election was it?
Cor blimey, some might say he was trying to stir people up and step in, strong man, to win the election! And finish off what he started when he was Defence Minister!
Not me, though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Salam Aleykum Hassan,
I have to correct you on this mate,
1. Sharon had any right to visit the Haram or as we call it the temple mount he was head of the opposition party, Israel is a free country and Just as Arafat had the right to visit the Wailing wall or the Church of the sepulchre ( when he did Jews or Christians didn't start rioting...) Sharon was maybe being a twat visiting the Haram but to say he didn't have the right or that this justifies all the death and destruction since then is ludicrous !
Also as its been discussed here before its well known and was admitted by few Palestinian officials that the Intefada was planed in advance and that it was inevitable after the brake down of Camp-David.... Sharon had little to do with it all.
2. There were no elections scheduled when Sharon did his visit .. Barak was still a very popular PM. Only after the intefada started and Israelis become shocked and disillusioned by Palestinian violence that Barak started to nose dive in the polls and lose al his political allies until there was a vote of no confidence against him in the Knesset and new elections were set.
Think about it, what this means ( if you belive the story about his visit sparking the violence) is that Sharon must be an amazing visionary to foresee all these things happening when he chose to visit the Haram...I guess if he's that smart I'm happy he is our PM
I've got to say, Sharon picked his day. Come now. A man still remembered and angrily resented for some particularly venomous, well, massacres (remember it was an Israeli enquiry that indicted the guy, albeit gently) turns up on a holy day with an army of bodyguards at one of Islam's holiest places.
Could he not, perhaps, have picked a better day? I'm not saying the actions of this, er, twat, are in any way a justification for the violence that followed, to answer your point. But you must concede that this was provocative.
And yes, Jews and Christians didn't riot when Arafat showed at their holy places. But then they don't have to. They aren't shot for expressing dissent, they're not humiliated at every end and turn in their own country by checkpoints, they haven't been evicted from centuries-old olive groves, orchards and homes, they don't have relatives in forty-year-old refugee camps, their ambulances aren't turned back from heart-attacks and labour pains and they don't have to dodge American-made bombs launched from American-made aeroplanes.
There's riots there and frankly it ain't no surprise. IT'S VERY BAD THERE.
Israel, the state of Israel, takes the living piss. And let's not confuse Jewish people with the state of Israel here; I'm talking about the political and military machinery of state oppression. The genetic and cultural provenance of the Knesset is irrelevant. And don't think I'm questioning Israel's right to exist, and to exist without suicide bombers.
Until Israel claims its share of the responsibility for this God-awful mess it ain't going to stop. And don't be surprised if there's riots until it does.
<strong>I've got to say, Sharon picked his day. Come now. A man still remembered and angrily resented for some particularly venomous, well, massacres...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where Arabs killed other Arabs. Why does that little detail keep getting left out?
Could he not, perhaps, have picked a better day? I'm not saying the actions of this, er, twat, are in any way a justification for the violence that followed, to answer your point. But you must concede that this was provocative.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes it was very provocative ! and stupid ! Sharon is a hawk and a warrior at heart ( a very good one at that ) and I would never (as most israelis would never) have voted for him for PM in normal circumstances but in this conflict as PM he has done some good things .. handling an almost impossible situation..... but I hope he moves on soon and that we would get someone better .. tough I don't know who ....
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
And yes, Jews and Christians didn't riot when Arafat showed at their holy places. But then they don't have to. They aren't shot for expressing dissent, they're not humiliated at every end and turn in their own country by checkpoints, they haven't been evicted from centuries-old olive groves, orchards and homes, they don't have relatives in forty-year-old refugee camps, their ambulances aren't turned back from heart-attacks and labour pains and they don't have to dodge American-made bombs launched from American-made aeroplanes.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well all of this wasn't happening before the Intefada started ... most Palestinians were under PA government there was free movement around the OT and into Israel for work and trade. Israel alone cannot be blamed for the refugee camps problem nor is it responsible for the PA's unbelievable corruption and inadequacy that led to the massive unrest that led to the Intefada. the settlement policy however is very bad and must stop ! and so is the rough treatment of innocent civilians.
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
There's riots there and frankly it ain't no surprise. IT'S VERY BAD THERE.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Indeed and Its not the riots i resent so much I can sympathize with expression of anger against stupid Israeli policies and the corrupt PA, but its the very deliberate use of calculated terror against Israeli civilians orchestrated by the PA and Hamas that I will not tolerate.... As i have said before I really feel for the Palestinian public .. when I used to live in jerusalem I was working with palestinians who were also my friends their problems are horrendous I agree ... but the solution can not come as a result of terror the negotiations must resume and violence must stop !
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Israel, the state of Israel, takes the living piss. And let's not confuse Jewish people with the state of Israel here; I'm talking about the political and military machinery of state oppression. The genetic and cultural provenance of the Knesset is irrelevant. And don't think I'm questioning Israel's right to exist, and to exist without suicide bombers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm glad you don't question Israel's right to exist, i don't question the Palestinian's right for a state of their own.
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Until Israel claims its share of the responsibility for this God-awful mess it ain't going to stop. And don't be surprised if there's riots until it does.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel has and does claim its share, how can it not ? the article quoted above does that and most Israelis understand that the settlements are a mistake and are sad to see Palestinians die as a result of IDF action in the OT but they also feel threatened.
they feel threatened because no one gives a shit about it when people die - off course the whole world condemns it but no one will lift a finger to prevent it, indeed when Israel goes out to defend itself the whole world goes ape**** tying to protect the terrorists .. what do they expect Israelis to do ? graciously accept the world's condolences and wait for the next bomb to go off ? it has taken 19 months nad 450 Israeli lives for Israel to finely really retaliate and take things to her own hands ... and lo and behold .. it worked ! in the past month there have been only 3 attacks ( compare that with 3 a day before the operation ).
Arafat had a damn good chance to get this over with before the passover massacre. the US envoy Zini was around he came up with an offer that was reasonable Israel accepted it and Arafat replied by rejecting it and sending his people to kill 50 israelis in one VERY HOLLY weekend, and in the weeks preceding that Israel withdrew its forces and acted in the most restrained manner possible despite the daily attacks...
Comments
but these organisations do not represent all palestinians. Just like Sharon isn't the representative of all israelis. There are moderates on both sides that do a great job, and some of them are indeed members of the PLO. (and btw, we've adressed the charter several times.)
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
<strong>My point is that nobody has protected those views. While people like PC^KILLA thinks that all arabs are scumbags, I think most of the people arguing for the palestinian cause here have nothing against jews. I have no problem with condeming palestinian terror, and the actions of organisations like hamas, jihad and the al-aqsa brigade.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Condeming is one thing (very very easy as chairman Araft knows) but preventing it or finding ways to secure against it is a totally different thing !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
but these organisations do not represent all palestinians. Just like Sharon isn't the representative of all israelis.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is absolutely NO moral equivalence between Sharon and people like Hamas ! if you claim this prove it !
Have you seen this recent poll by an organization affiliated with Bir Zait west bank university ? this is a wholly configured and executed poll by Palestinians for Palestinians so you can't say- oh but its not true the Israelis must have fiddled the results.... just a few interesting results from that long poll:
60.9% do not think OBL was the man behind 9/11
84.6% support armed attacks against Israeli targets.
91.1% do not define The assassination of Israeli tourism Minister Rechavam Zeevi by Palestinians a terrorist act.
59.2% do not define 9/11 attacks as terrorism.
72% answered no to the question- If Palestinians would use chemical or biological weapons against Israel, would you consider it to be an act of terror?
86.5% do not define the act of killing of 21 Israeli youths by a Palestinian who exploded himself at the Dolphinarium night club in Tel Aviv as terrorism
68.4% do not believe peace is possible at all.
For the full encouraging thing go to:
<a href="http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2001/p3b.html"; target="_blank">http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2001/p3b.html</a>;
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
There are moderates on both sides that do a great job, and some of them are indeed members of the PLO. (and btw, we've adressed the charter several times.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeh ? where are these people ? where are their web sites ? how come we all keep quoting Israeli sites ( Betzelem, Haaretz...etc) when we want the facts and not Palestinian ones ?
Where is the moderate Palestinian leadership condemning the suicides (not still blaming them on Israel and half excusing them) and offering moderate and reasonable solutions ? where are the serious Palestinian scholars who are willing to address to constant warping of history by Palestinian propaganda ?
I challenge you to name me these people you mention and prove to me that they make a difference to Palestinian attitudes.
Also none of you have still answered by question about Israel's security in case of a withdrawal
or have addressed the fact of the overwhelming bias against Israel in the Arab world which seems to simply follow the line of -' if it be broken blame Israel, if it be very broken blame the US.'
Arafat used to be a terrorist, probably still is. Sharon used to be a terrorist, still is.
i think that sums up your mentality-Arafat is PROBABLY a terrorist, but Sharon IS. How moronic. Arafat started the violence, always has everywhere he's been. Sharon may be a hothead, but if Arafat didn't create the violence Sharon would have nowhere to go but the bargaining table............................................. ..................
They are both detrimental to the peace process, what more do you want from me? I don't give a shit about either of them, they are both war criminals and murderers.
<strong>rat:
Arafat used to be a terrorist, probably still is. Sharon used to be a terrorist, still is.
i think that sums up your mentality-Arafat is PROBABLY a terrorist, but Sharon IS. How moronic. Arafat started the violence, always has everywhere he's been. Sharon may be a hothead, but if Arafat didn't create the violence Sharon would have nowhere to go but the bargaining table............................................. ..................</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can guarantee you one thing ! if Arafat hadn't started the violence and the Palestinians wouldn't have started the Intefada Sharon would never have been near to becoming PM in Israel he wouldn't have a sliming chance .... never ever never.....
And BTW New, Groverat, i'm still waiting for some meaningful response for my posts ....
The equality lies in that the perception of Sharon and Hamas is pretty much the same on each side. To israelis Hamas is terror, to palestinians Sharon is the same. How can you blame them. Have you read <a href="http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ign0"; target="_blank">this</a>? Even if he wasn't guilty, you'll have a darn hard time explaining that to a palestinian after the official Israeli inquiry wrote what it did...
[quote]Have you seen this recent poll by an organization affiliated with Bir Zait west bank university ?<hr></blockquote>
The results are sad, I agree. But not surprising. If you polled israeli students on if war crimes where commited in Jenin, I'd bet they almost all disagree. While it is obviously to early to draw decisive conclusions at this point.
[quote]Yeh ? where are these people ? where are their web sites ? how come we all keep quoting Israeli sites ( Betzelem, Haaretz...etc) when we want the facts and not Palestinian ones ?<hr></blockquote>
I quote only israeli, jewish or international sources because if I were to post a palestinian source, I'd be shut down imidiatly by you guys for posting "arab-anti-semit-propaganda". I posted a quote by Edward Said once in a small part of a longer post, and that was ofcourse the only thing PC^KILLA commented on...
[quote]I challenge you to name me these people you mention and prove to me that they make a difference to Palestinian attitudes.<hr></blockquote>
here are some linkes to people and organisations that deserve better than to be labeled "propaganda tools"...
<a href="http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/Elberg/Ashrawi/ashrawi-con0.html"; target="_blank">http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/Elberg/Ashrawi/ashrawi-con0.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.palestinecenter.org/framecpap.html"; target="_blank">http://www.palestinecenter.org/framecpap.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.passia.org/index_about.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.passia.org/index_about.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.adalah.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.adalah.org/</a>;
<a href="http://www.piccr.org/about.html"; target="_blank">http://www.piccr.org/about.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.sabeel.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.sabeel.org/</a>;
<a href="http://www.muwatin.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.muwatin.org/</a>;
<a href="http://www.passia.org/about_us/sari.html"; target="_blank">http://www.passia.org/about_us/sari.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.hcef.org/foundation/people/advisory/mawad.html"; target="_blank">http://www.hcef.org/foundation/people/advisory/mawad.html</a>;
<strong>
The equality lies in that the perception of Sharon and Hamas is pretty much the same on each side. To israelis Hamas is terror, to palestinians Sharon is the same. How can you blame them. Have you read this? Even if he wasn't guilty, you'll have a darn hard time explaining that to a palestinian after the official Israeli inquiry wrote what it did...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know Arabs despise Sharon, not only for his Lebanese dark side but also for the many humiliating defeats he has given them in the battle field.. but that doesn't mean you guys shouldn't know any better.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The results are sad, I agree. But not surprising. If you polled israeli students on if war crimes where committed in Jenin, I'd bet they almost all disagree. While it is obviously to early to draw decisive conclusions at this point.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
this is totally different... ( and BTW you know i think NO war crimes were committed in Jenin) because most Israelis still see a solution by negotiation, most believe Israel should be out of the OT and most agree that a palestinian state should be established. many israelis openly deplore Sharon's tactics and some reserve officers and soldiers refuse to serve in the OT and prefer to go to prison...compare this to the 84% of palestinians who think suicide bombings are good and the 68% who do not think peace is possible until Israel is gone.....Do you see where i'm coming from and why am i so paranoid about trusting these people ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I quote only israeli, jewish or international sources because if I were to post a palestinian source, I'd be shut down imidiately by you guys for posting "arab-anti-semit-propaganda". I posted a quote by Edward Said once in a small part of a longer post, and that was ofcourse the only thing PC^KILLA commented on...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry for being critical but you are (rightly so) just as bad ( remember your unwillingness to accept IDF evidence ?)
I would LOVE to see some serious sober palestinian opinions ! feel free to post...
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
here are some links to people and organizations that deserve better than to be labeled "propaganda tools"...
<a href="http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/Elberg/Ashrawi/ashrawi-con0.html"; target="_blank">http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/Elberg/Ashrawi/ashrawi-con0.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.palestinecenter.org/framecpap.html"; target="_blank">http://www.palestinecenter.org/framecpap.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.passia.org/index_about.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.passia.org/index_about.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.adalah.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.adalah.org/</a>;
<a href="http://www.piccr.org/about.html"; target="_blank">http://www.piccr.org/about.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.sabeel.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.sabeel.org/</a>;
<a href="http://www.muwatin.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.muwatin.org/</a>;
<a href="http://www.passia.org/about_us/sari.html"; target="_blank">http://www.passia.org/about_us/sari.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.hcef.org/foundation/people/advisory/mawad.html"; target="_blank">http://www.hcef.org/foundation/people/advisory/mawad.html</a>;
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfourtunatly i was able to find very little real substance in these sources beyond the usual victim of occupation rhetoric you usually get from these kind of sites Sari Nuseibeh is a clear exception and I have a great deal of respect for this man but the rest is less then inspiring I'm afraid...
Compare that with these:
<a href="http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156637&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156637&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y</a>
<a href="http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157057&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157057&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y</a>
<a href="http://www.newisraelfund.org/content.cfm?cat_id=1000&currbody=1"; target="_blank">http://www.newisraelfund.org/content.cfm?cat_id=1000&currbody=1</a>;
<a href="http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp</a>;
And plenty more ...
Interesting article. I highly doubt that Groverat and New would like it or think it was true, but I found it interesting.
I actually like the site. No doubt just Israeli propaganda.... As anything good said about Israel is...
--
Rashumon:
What posts do you want me to respond to, the ones you have directed at New?
Please, ask a question, I will answer.
<strong>Bridges For Peace is a blatant propaganda site. Read the description of what the organization is. I at least try to stick to actual media outlets, no religious groups.
So it is not possible that a "religious group" could possibly know what was going on or report it correctly. Especially not since their headquarters are in Israel, not since they are exposed first hand to what you only talk about and read in the news sometimes second and third hand. I am more inclined to believe this group than CNN for the most part.
<strong>Hard to prove if Arafat still is, he's holed up in a complex surrounded by Israelis. Sharon quite obviously still is.
They are both detrimental to the peace process, what more do you want from me? I don't give a shit about either of them, they are both war criminals and murderers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really, since he is holed up and prevented from free movement he is no longer a terrorist? Success!!!
The only one detrimental to the peace process is Arafat when he walked away from the table so many years ago and has not been back for real since. Hard to take him seriuosly when he so obviusly is not interested, no matter what he states publicly, his actions speak much more clearly...
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
Bridges For Peace - is a Jerusalem-based, multi-faceted, Christian organization dedicated to the building of sincere relationships between the Christian and Jewish communities, while encouraging greater concern for the land and people of Israel. It is our desire to see Christians and Jews working side by side for better understanding and a more secure Israel.
Sounds like a regular objective news outlet.
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Replace the word "Arafat" with "Sharon" in that last paragraph and it would still make perfect sense.
Er... that wasn't Ariel Sharon and a phalanx of bodyguards visiting the Har'm Al-Sharif (ace boon sacred place) on Eid (ace boon Muslim holy day) before the last election was it?
Cor blimey, some might say he was trying to stir people up and step in, strong man, to win the election! And finish off what he started when he was Defence Minister!
Not me, though.
<strong>
Er... that wasn't Ariel Sharon and a phalanx of bodyguards visiting the Har'm Al-Sharif (ace boon sacred place) on Eid (ace boon Muslim holy day) before the last election was it?
Cor blimey, some might say he was trying to stir people up and step in, strong man, to win the election! And finish off what he started when he was Defence Minister!
Not me, though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Salam Aleykum Hassan,
I have to correct you on this mate,
1. Sharon had any right to visit the Haram or as we call it the temple mount he was head of the opposition party, Israel is a free country and Just as Arafat had the right to visit the Wailing wall or the Church of the sepulchre ( when he did Jews or Christians didn't start rioting...) Sharon was maybe being a twat visiting the Haram but to say he didn't have the right or that this justifies all the death and destruction since then is ludicrous !
Also as its been discussed here before its well known and was admitted by few Palestinian officials that the Intefada was planed in advance and that it was inevitable after the brake down of Camp-David.... Sharon had little to do with it all.
2. There were no elections scheduled when Sharon did his visit .. Barak was still a very popular PM. Only after the intefada started and Israelis become shocked and disillusioned by Palestinian violence that Barak started to nose dive in the polls and lose al his political allies until there was a vote of no confidence against him in the Knesset and new elections were set.
Think about it, what this means ( if you belive the story about his visit sparking the violence) is that Sharon must be an amazing visionary to foresee all these things happening when he chose to visit the Haram...I guess if he's that smart I'm happy he is our PM
Yes, but, yes but.
At least we can discuss it civilly!
Could he not, perhaps, have picked a better day? I'm not saying the actions of this, er, twat, are in any way a justification for the violence that followed, to answer your point. But you must concede that this was provocative.
And yes, Jews and Christians didn't riot when Arafat showed at their holy places. But then they don't have to. They aren't shot for expressing dissent, they're not humiliated at every end and turn in their own country by checkpoints, they haven't been evicted from centuries-old olive groves, orchards and homes, they don't have relatives in forty-year-old refugee camps, their ambulances aren't turned back from heart-attacks and labour pains and they don't have to dodge American-made bombs launched from American-made aeroplanes.
There's riots there and frankly it ain't no surprise. IT'S VERY BAD THERE.
Israel, the state of Israel, takes the living piss. And let's not confuse Jewish people with the state of Israel here; I'm talking about the political and military machinery of state oppression. The genetic and cultural provenance of the Knesset is irrelevant. And don't think I'm questioning Israel's right to exist, and to exist without suicide bombers.
Until Israel claims its share of the responsibility for this God-awful mess it ain't going to stop. And don't be surprised if there's riots until it does.
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>I've got to say, Sharon picked his day. Come now. A man still remembered and angrily resented for some particularly venomous, well, massacres...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where Arabs killed other Arabs. Why does that little detail keep getting left out?
<strong>
Could he not, perhaps, have picked a better day? I'm not saying the actions of this, er, twat, are in any way a justification for the violence that followed, to answer your point. But you must concede that this was provocative.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes it was very provocative ! and stupid ! Sharon is a hawk and a warrior at heart ( a very good one at that ) and I would never (as most israelis would never) have voted for him for PM in normal circumstances but in this conflict as PM he has done some good things .. handling an almost impossible situation..... but I hope he moves on soon and that we would get someone better .. tough I don't know who ....
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
And yes, Jews and Christians didn't riot when Arafat showed at their holy places. But then they don't have to. They aren't shot for expressing dissent, they're not humiliated at every end and turn in their own country by checkpoints, they haven't been evicted from centuries-old olive groves, orchards and homes, they don't have relatives in forty-year-old refugee camps, their ambulances aren't turned back from heart-attacks and labour pains and they don't have to dodge American-made bombs launched from American-made aeroplanes.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well all of this wasn't happening before the Intefada started ... most Palestinians were under PA government there was free movement around the OT and into Israel for work and trade. Israel alone cannot be blamed for the refugee camps problem nor is it responsible for the PA's unbelievable corruption and inadequacy that led to the massive unrest that led to the Intefada. the settlement policy however is very bad and must stop ! and so is the rough treatment of innocent civilians.
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
There's riots there and frankly it ain't no surprise. IT'S VERY BAD THERE.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Indeed and Its not the riots i resent so much I can sympathize with expression of anger against stupid Israeli policies and the corrupt PA, but its the very deliberate use of calculated terror against Israeli civilians orchestrated by the PA and Hamas that I will not tolerate.... As i have said before I really feel for the Palestinian public .. when I used to live in jerusalem I was working with palestinians who were also my friends their problems are horrendous I agree ... but the solution can not come as a result of terror the negotiations must resume and violence must stop !
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Israel, the state of Israel, takes the living piss. And let's not confuse Jewish people with the state of Israel here; I'm talking about the political and military machinery of state oppression. The genetic and cultural provenance of the Knesset is irrelevant. And don't think I'm questioning Israel's right to exist, and to exist without suicide bombers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm glad you don't question Israel's right to exist, i don't question the Palestinian's right for a state of their own.
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Until Israel claims its share of the responsibility for this God-awful mess it ain't going to stop. And don't be surprised if there's riots until it does.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel has and does claim its share, how can it not ? the article quoted above does that and most Israelis understand that the settlements are a mistake and are sad to see Palestinians die as a result of IDF action in the OT but they also feel threatened.
they feel threatened because no one gives a shit about it when people die - off course the whole world condemns it but no one will lift a finger to prevent it, indeed when Israel goes out to defend itself the whole world goes ape**** tying to protect the terrorists .. what do they expect Israelis to do ? graciously accept the world's condolences and wait for the next bomb to go off ? it has taken 19 months nad 450 Israeli lives for Israel to finely really retaliate and take things to her own hands ... and lo and behold .. it worked ! in the past month there have been only 3 attacks ( compare that with 3 a day before the operation ).
Arafat had a damn good chance to get this over with before the passover massacre. the US envoy Zini was around he came up with an offer that was reasonable Israel accepted it and Arafat replied by rejecting it and sending his people to kill 50 israelis in one VERY HOLLY weekend, and in the weeks preceding that Israel withdrew its forces and acted in the most restrained manner possible despite the daily attacks...
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>