And with both sides taking this idiotic "It's ALL THEIR FAULT!" attitude there will never be peace.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not taking this position at all !
I fully take responsibility for Israel's stupid attachment to the OT and its inability to let go of the occupation for the past 30 years.
I think Israel should never have settled the OT, And I think that if it turns out to be impossible to get the palestinians back into dialog Israel should simply do a unilateral withdrawal out of the OT to secure borders, erect a wall and defend itself against whoever tries to go across that wall...
This however does not in anyway equates to the Palestinians incurable ability to never miss a chance to miss a chance, their basic detachment from reality when it comes to the historical facts, the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence. some people have suggested here that Palestinians see no hope and that's why they do the horrendous things they do ... well it sure as hell isn't getting them any closer to their target..... If anything they were far closer to the solution when they choose to use peaceful means for their struggle. the dream of a Palestinian state is as far away today as it ever was !
I guess that the point I'm trying to make is that Israelis are capable to face up to the mistakes they have done over the past 30 years, in fact many of Israel's greatest critics are israelis.
However i haven't seen a single post on this or any other forum or an article in the press from an Arab (let alone a Palestinian) accepting the mistakes they have done ... deploring the suicides, apologising for trying to exterminate us 3 times in the past 50 years etc... untill this happens how can we ever have a just peace ?
Its like the Palestinians are somehow locked in a loop of self pitty and denial.
A palestinian state is actually a hotter topic today than ever. The US has for the first time supported it. The UN has never been more resolved to do something about the situation, and the world has in many ways seen the occupation for what it is, (an occupation).
Even though the events have been dramatic. They have in many ways shown the need for a lasting solution better than the endless talks of the last decade has...
Having said that, the election of Sharon was probably the single worst thing that ever happend to the peace process...
Having said that, the election of Sharon was probably the single worst thing that ever happend to the peace process...</strong><hr></blockquote>
are you mad ? you think it was worse then the brakedown of the talks and the launching of the Intefada ?
So human lives are nothing to you ?
if the Palestinians get their land is the only imporatant thing ? even if its at the price of endless destruction on both sides ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I belive your wrong.
A palestinian state is actually a hotter topic today than ever. The US has for the first time supported it. The UN has never been more resolved to do something about the situation, and the world has in many ways seen the occupation for what it is, (an occupation).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats not true .. the most important thing is for the two sides to accept each other's right to live in peace and prosperity next tot he other, the recent violence has made it far more difficult.
From having something which was very nearly their own state in sep2000 the palestinians now have a destroyed economy, the PA is gone, the (rotten) infrastructure they had is very much destroyed and so is any sense of civility and social order. their land is again occupied by israeli troops (this time they are far more pissed off and dangerous then ever before). and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit. so what was the point of all this ? to get Norwegian like you interested ?
believe me if Israel simply contains the situation like it is now .. and we don't have more of the extreme violence we had a month ago this issue will slowly be forgotten from the international agenda and then who will remember the Palestinian's problems ? even now its only being used by Arab leaders as a tool against the US action planed in Iraq ...once thats over no one's gone care ...it's sad but true ...
Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO !
so what's the big deal about the Palestinians that's going to make this story last ?
In reality the stories of these other nations are far more brutal and sad then the Palestinian story but still they get pushed back to the sideline because no one has an interest to keep them in western minds !
but you lot will just say its government lies.....
BTW I just had a talk with a friend ( a paratrooper) who just came back from being called up to do reserve duty in Jenin. the guy is a leftie BTW and is not in anyway a militant Israeli.
He was saying that the lies and misinformation spread by the Media, Palestinians and the UN are unbelievable. he was saying that they were constantly risking their lives in order not to endanger civilians. He was saying that they are ordered by commanders to clean any house they go into to search for militants once they leave the premises. and that they can get court martiald for appearing to be rude to Palestinians or Journalists.
Again I just know grovrat and New will not believe my word on this becasue they can't resist demonizing Israel but this guy is totally reliable in my eyes and i totally believe his first hand testimony.
[quote] the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence.<hr></blockquote>
The famous saying, "Like a pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind...
[quote] So human lives are nothing to you ? <hr></blockquote>
Come on, I came over to this thread in the hope to find a more serious discussion.
[quote] and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit. <hr></blockquote>
Well the deal will have to be better if peace is to be achived. The Saudi purposal is the plan on the table now, and Sharon is gonna have to do better than just blowing it off...
[quote] Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO ! <hr></blockquote>
I don't know about you, but I discuss these topics quite often. We concern ourselves with the palestinians now because the recent developments in the conflict have been so dramatic. But hopefully we'll have some threads on the other conflicts on later. I've considered starting a thread on Timor several times, but there are only so many hours I can spend on AI...
Rashumon, I would never call your friend a lier. But there are always more than one side to the story. I've seen the pictures. I've also seen the numbers tha 600 homes have been destroyed, and 200 more made unlivable in.
I've seen the Red Cross statistics that til now, they've recover 60 bodies, amog them old people and children. And the job is not nearly finished. So maybe your friend doesn't know everything.
The fact remains that against international law, journalist and helpworkers where keept out for eleven days. This can't be justified.
This such a pathetic response to the points I was making ... so what does this picture prove ?
that some Israelis are shitheads ? did I ever dispute this ? this has nothing to do with the points I was making which were far broader, I could have easily posted some gory pic of Israeli victims .. would that do much for our debate ?
I DO accept responsibility for Israel's mistakes and barbarous actions. but I haven't seen a Palestinian or an Arab doing likewise here or anywhere else. all you ever hear from them is:
Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
Holocaust = a fairytale invented to justify Israeli massacres against Arabs.
Solution = Israel must withdraw Immediately under fire to borders Arabs will define as legal ( even the UN hasn't drawn these yet), Israel has NO right to defend itself against Arab/Palestinian attacks/terror, Israel should roll over and give in to all demands Arabs make to it or else.........and last but not least Israel should accept the right of whoever Arab claims to be the son of a guy who once knew a man who used to live in the same house with a guy who's cousin owned a goat in Palestine before 1948 .. to allow the Immediate right to come back to his (alleged) ancestral home home and claim a right to israeli sovereign land ( there are about 4 million claimants for this BTW....)
And besides of all of that, when you really press them to get the real opinions from under the surface they will say that Israel doesn't really have a right to exist at all and that what it really is, is a EVIL attempt by Europe to deal with its Jewish problem on the back of the Arabs and a tool for the Americans to control oil with.....
Where are the moderates ?
Why don't we see a single real denunciation of Palestinian violence from any Arab state ?
Why is this constantly ( in the media, in the UN, in our discussions) always about Israel this and Israel that..... where is the Arab world's meddling in this ?
Where is the UN denunciation for the PA's orchestrated campaign of terror ? Why do we still have people like New willing to defend Arafat but denounce Sharon even though Arafat's involvement in terrorism has been proven so many times ?
Can you answer this in an Intelligent way .... or will i get some more one liners and silly photos from you ?
I'm getting a little fed up with your inability to discuss the actual facts and relate to real life issues , all you constantly seem to do is spell out how dreadful Israel's occupation of the OT is (I never said it wasn't) and dismiss any real concerns I and others raise about real security problems. I know its easy for you to simply blame it all on the occupation but the truth is the reality and history of this conflict are far more complicated then how you stubbornly choose to portray it...
Let me ask you and New and whoever wants to answer this a simple question.
What would you do to insure Israel's security and well being in case of an Israeli withdrawal from the OT ? what would you propose be the steps if Palestinians continue their self destructive violence even after an Israeli withdrawal ?
BTW... Anders I still think your basic first post was really poignant and interesting and would really want to know your opinions on these issues.....
I can see how this is emotional for everyone involved, I still think your last post is a bit over the top, and for the record: I never said any of those things you wrote above. When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw. The most difficult issue here is maybe Jerusalem, but it will have to be solved. The question of individual security for israelis cannot be held higher than the palestinians right to freedom and equality.
<strong>When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, but no US troops. I know how that sounds, but we will, as before, become the targets of the Arab terrorists if we go there, and things will just get worse.
<strong> When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw. The most difficult issue here is maybe Jerusalem, but it will have to be solved. The question of individual security for israelis cannot be held higher than the palestinians right to freedom and equality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And how exactly will this ensure Israeli security ?
International forces have proved to be totaly useles in lebanon they might simply turn into shields for the terrorists or even worse targets in the case of US troops..... this is a no go option I think....
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I can see how this is emotional for everyone involved, I still think your last post is a bit over the top, and for the record: I never said any of those things you wrote above.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why was it over the top ? what's over the top about it ? and all i said about you is that you insist defending Arafat but constantly rebuke Sharon which to me seems ludicrous what did I say about you that you didn't say ?...
quote: and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit.
______________________________________________
Well the deal will have to be better if peace is to be achived. The Saudi purposal is the plan on the table now, and Sharon is gonna have to do better than just blowing it off...</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote] Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
Holocaust = a fairytale invented to justify Israeli massacres against Arabs.
Solution = Israel must withdraw Immediately under fire to borders Arabs will define as legal ( even the UN hasn't drawn these yet), Israel has NO right to defend itself against Arab/Palestinian attacks/terror, Israel should roll over and give in to all demands Arabs make to it or else.........and last but not least Israel should accept the right of whoever Arab claims to be the son of a guy who once knew a man who used to live in the same house with a guy who's cousin owned a goat in Palestine before 1948 .. to allow the Immediate right to come back to his (alleged) ancestral home home and claim a right to israeli sovereign land ( there are about 4 million claimants for this BTW....)
And besides of all of that, when you really press them to get the real opinions from under the surface they will say that Israel doesn't really have a right to exist at all and that what it really is, is a EVIL attempt by Europe to deal with its Jewish problem on the back of the Arabs and a tool for the Americans to control oil with..... <hr></blockquote>
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
..........
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really ?
Have you ever read some Islamic or Palestinian web sites ?
Have you ever seen Al-Jazira TV ?
Have you read some of what the most prominent muslim leaders of the Arab world have to say about the suicide bombings ?
A few days ago I was watching Jeremy Paxman interview Amro Musa ( the Arab league's chairman) here on BBC 2 newsnight, whatever Paxman tried to do he couldn't get Mr Musa to simply condemn suicide bombings against Israelis, every time he was asked about it he just started rambling on about the occupation like it was some mantra ...
Check this site out a little.. its a typical example of that Palestinian self pity and denial loop I was relating to in previous posts .... no reference to Arab errors or evil action at all only a meticulous script explaining how israel is responsible for all of the Palestinian's problems......no sober self assesments or any sign of a reasonable pragmatic path to a solution offered there...
Arafat used to be a terrorist, probably still is. Sharon used to be a terrorist, still is.
Neither one of them is capable of helping any peace process. You don't have to convince me that Arafat is a bad guy, I've said it over and over again myself.
[quote]I DO accept responsibility for Israel's mistakes and barbarous actions.<hr></blockquote>
I posted that picture in response to something you said:
" the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence..."
Both groups are violent shitheads.
---
I would looooove this:
exchange for recognition of Israel's borders. 1. An Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian areas;
2. An end to the Israeli siege of the West Bank town of Ramallah;
3. Deployment of an international peacekeeping force;
4. Reconstruction of damaged Palestinian areas;
5. Renunciation of violence;
6. Talks on a political settlement to Israeli-Palestinian issues, as opposed to near-term security issues;
7. An end to Israeli settlements in Palestinian areas.
8. U.S. leadership in implementing United Nations resolution 242 calling for an Israeli withdrawal from lands captured in the 1967 Six-Day War, in 1. An Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian areas; 2. An end to the Israeli siege of the West Bank town of Ramallah; 3. Deployment of an international peacekeeping force; 4. Reconstruction of damaged Palestinian areas; 5. Renunciation of violence; 6. Talks on a political settlement to Israeli-Palestinian issues...
Comments
<strong>
And with both sides taking this idiotic "It's ALL THEIR FAULT!" attitude there will never be peace.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not taking this position at all !
I fully take responsibility for Israel's stupid attachment to the OT and its inability to let go of the occupation for the past 30 years.
I think Israel should never have settled the OT, And I think that if it turns out to be impossible to get the palestinians back into dialog Israel should simply do a unilateral withdrawal out of the OT to secure borders, erect a wall and defend itself against whoever tries to go across that wall...
This however does not in anyway equates to the Palestinians incurable ability to never miss a chance to miss a chance, their basic detachment from reality when it comes to the historical facts, the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence. some people have suggested here that Palestinians see no hope and that's why they do the horrendous things they do ... well it sure as hell isn't getting them any closer to their target..... If anything they were far closer to the solution when they choose to use peaceful means for their struggle. the dream of a Palestinian state is as far away today as it ever was !
I guess that the point I'm trying to make is that Israelis are capable to face up to the mistakes they have done over the past 30 years, in fact many of Israel's greatest critics are israelis.
However i haven't seen a single post on this or any other forum or an article in the press from an Arab (let alone a Palestinian) accepting the mistakes they have done ... deploring the suicides, apologising for trying to exterminate us 3 times in the past 50 years etc... untill this happens how can we ever have a just peace ?
Its like the Palestinians are somehow locked in a loop of self pitty and denial.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
A palestinian state is actually a hotter topic today than ever. The US has for the first time supported it. The UN has never been more resolved to do something about the situation, and the world has in many ways seen the occupation for what it is, (an occupation).
Even though the events have been dramatic. They have in many ways shown the need for a lasting solution better than the endless talks of the last decade has...
Having said that, the election of Sharon was probably the single worst thing that ever happend to the peace process...
<strong>
Having said that, the election of Sharon was probably the single worst thing that ever happend to the peace process...</strong><hr></blockquote>
are you mad ? you think it was worse then the brakedown of the talks and the launching of the Intefada ?
So human lives are nothing to you ?
if the Palestinians get their land is the only imporatant thing ? even if its at the price of endless destruction on both sides ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I belive your wrong.
A palestinian state is actually a hotter topic today than ever. The US has for the first time supported it. The UN has never been more resolved to do something about the situation, and the world has in many ways seen the occupation for what it is, (an occupation).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats not true .. the most important thing is for the two sides to accept each other's right to live in peace and prosperity next tot he other, the recent violence has made it far more difficult.
From having something which was very nearly their own state in sep2000 the palestinians now have a destroyed economy, the PA is gone, the (rotten) infrastructure they had is very much destroyed and so is any sense of civility and social order. their land is again occupied by israeli troops (this time they are far more pissed off and dangerous then ever before). and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit. so what was the point of all this ? to get Norwegian like you interested ?
believe me if Israel simply contains the situation like it is now .. and we don't have more of the extreme violence we had a month ago this issue will slowly be forgotten from the international agenda and then who will remember the Palestinian's problems ? even now its only being used by Arab leaders as a tool against the US action planed in Iraq ...once thats over no one's gone care ...it's sad but true ...
Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO !
so what's the big deal about the Palestinians that's going to make this story last ?
In reality the stories of these other nations are far more brutal and sad then the Palestinian story but still they get pushed back to the sideline because no one has an interest to keep them in western minds !
but you lot will just say its government lies.....
BTW I just had a talk with a friend ( a paratrooper) who just came back from being called up to do reserve duty in Jenin. the guy is a leftie BTW and is not in anyway a militant Israeli.
He was saying that the lies and misinformation spread by the Media, Palestinians and the UN are unbelievable. he was saying that they were constantly risking their lives in order not to endanger civilians. He was saying that they are ordered by commanders to clean any house they go into to search for militants once they leave the premises. and that they can get court martiald for appearing to be rude to Palestinians or Journalists.
Again I just know grovrat and New will not believe my word on this becasue they can't resist demonizing Israel but this guy is totally reliable in my eyes and i totally believe his first hand testimony.
The famous saying, "Like a pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind...
Sorry, what were you saying again?
[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
"Little old palestinian lady, moments before being beaten senseless by israeli children" for example.
Or is it, "israeli children lash out at first palestinian moments after a bomb rocked their neighborhood wounding their parents and relatives"?
Taken out of context a picture can mean whatever the person wants it to. It proves nothing, it makes no real standing point...
Taking out your anger on another race because someone from their same race did something bad is not justified legally or morally.
[edit]
That's why a guy here in Texas is going to get the needle prick instead of a hero's welcome for shooting a Muslim after 9/11.
Aren't we supposed to be shocked and outraged when we see Palestinian kids with fake explosives wrapped around them?
"Oh, hate is such a terrible thing, I can't believe those naughty Palestinians are so hate filled!" we cry at our televisions.
But this, oh no, completely different. This is fully justified. That old woman is obviously a terrorist!
[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
Come on, I came over to this thread in the hope to find a more serious discussion.
[quote] and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit. <hr></blockquote>
Well the deal will have to be better if peace is to be achived. The Saudi purposal is the plan on the table now, and Sharon is gonna have to do better than just blowing it off...
[quote] Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO ! <hr></blockquote>
I don't know about you, but I discuss these topics quite often. We concern ourselves with the palestinians now because the recent developments in the conflict have been so dramatic. But hopefully we'll have some threads on the other conflicts on later. I've considered starting a thread on Timor several times, but there are only so many hours I can spend on AI...
Rashumon, I would never call your friend a lier. But there are always more than one side to the story. I've seen the pictures. I've also seen the numbers tha 600 homes have been destroyed, and 200 more made unlivable in.
I've seen the Red Cross statistics that til now, they've recover 60 bodies, amog them old people and children. And the job is not nearly finished. So maybe your friend doesn't know everything.
The fact remains that against international law, journalist and helpworkers where keept out for eleven days. This can't be justified.
And Israel is losing face from events like this.
Start a thread about those. This thread is called "Israel/Palestine...".
If you don't want to talk about Israel/Palestine, don't go into threads with that subject. Simple.
And what do those pictures prove?
<strong>
The famous saying, "Like a pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind...
Sorry, what were you saying again?
[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This such a pathetic response to the points I was making ... so what does this picture prove ?
that some Israelis are shitheads ? did I ever dispute this ? this has nothing to do with the points I was making which were far broader, I could have easily posted some gory pic of Israeli victims .. would that do much for our debate ?
I DO accept responsibility for Israel's mistakes and barbarous actions. but I haven't seen a Palestinian or an Arab doing likewise here or anywhere else. all you ever hear from them is:
Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
Holocaust = a fairytale invented to justify Israeli massacres against Arabs.
Solution = Israel must withdraw Immediately under fire to borders Arabs will define as legal ( even the UN hasn't drawn these yet), Israel has NO right to defend itself against Arab/Palestinian attacks/terror, Israel should roll over and give in to all demands Arabs make to it or else.........and last but not least Israel should accept the right of whoever Arab claims to be the son of a guy who once knew a man who used to live in the same house with a guy who's cousin owned a goat in Palestine before 1948 .. to allow the Immediate right to come back to his (alleged) ancestral home home and claim a right to israeli sovereign land ( there are about 4 million claimants for this BTW....)
And besides of all of that, when you really press them to get the real opinions from under the surface they will say that Israel doesn't really have a right to exist at all and that what it really is, is a EVIL attempt by Europe to deal with its Jewish problem on the back of the Arabs and a tool for the Americans to control oil with.....
Where are the moderates ?
Why don't we see a single real denunciation of Palestinian violence from any Arab state ?
Why is this constantly ( in the media, in the UN, in our discussions) always about Israel this and Israel that..... where is the Arab world's meddling in this ?
Where is the UN denunciation for the PA's orchestrated campaign of terror ? Why do we still have people like New willing to defend Arafat but denounce Sharon even though Arafat's involvement in terrorism has been proven so many times ?
Can you answer this in an Intelligent way .... or will i get some more one liners and silly photos from you ?
I'm getting a little fed up with your inability to discuss the actual facts and relate to real life issues , all you constantly seem to do is spell out how dreadful Israel's occupation of the OT is (I never said it wasn't) and dismiss any real concerns I and others raise about real security problems. I know its easy for you to simply blame it all on the occupation but the truth is the reality and history of this conflict are far more complicated then how you stubbornly choose to portray it...
Let me ask you and New and whoever wants to answer this a simple question.
What would you do to insure Israel's security and well being in case of an Israeli withdrawal from the OT ? what would you propose be the steps if Palestinians continue their self destructive violence even after an Israeli withdrawal ?
BTW... Anders I still think your basic first post was really poignant and interesting and would really want to know your opinions on these issues.....
<strong>When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, but no US troops. I know how that sounds, but we will, as before, become the targets of the Arab terrorists if we go there, and things will just get worse.
<strong> When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw. The most difficult issue here is maybe Jerusalem, but it will have to be solved. The question of individual security for israelis cannot be held higher than the palestinians right to freedom and equality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And how exactly will this ensure Israeli security ?
International forces have proved to be totaly useles in lebanon they might simply turn into shields for the terrorists or even worse targets in the case of US troops..... this is a no go option I think....
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I can see how this is emotional for everyone involved, I still think your last post is a bit over the top, and for the record: I never said any of those things you wrote above.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why was it over the top ? what's over the top about it ? and all i said about you is that you insist defending Arafat but constantly rebuke Sharon which to me seems ludicrous what did I say about you that you didn't say ?...
<strong>
_____________________________________________
quote: and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit.
______________________________________________
Well the deal will have to be better if peace is to be achived. The Saudi purposal is the plan on the table now, and Sharon is gonna have to do better than just blowing it off...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Looks good....
<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156567&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156567&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0</a>
sound good... we'll see what happens...
[quote] Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
Holocaust = a fairytale invented to justify Israeli massacres against Arabs.
Solution = Israel must withdraw Immediately under fire to borders Arabs will define as legal ( even the UN hasn't drawn these yet), Israel has NO right to defend itself against Arab/Palestinian attacks/terror, Israel should roll over and give in to all demands Arabs make to it or else.........and last but not least Israel should accept the right of whoever Arab claims to be the son of a guy who once knew a man who used to live in the same house with a guy who's cousin owned a goat in Palestine before 1948 .. to allow the Immediate right to come back to his (alleged) ancestral home home and claim a right to israeli sovereign land ( there are about 4 million claimants for this BTW....)
And besides of all of that, when you really press them to get the real opinions from under the surface they will say that Israel doesn't really have a right to exist at all and that what it really is, is a EVIL attempt by Europe to deal with its Jewish problem on the back of the Arabs and a tool for the Americans to control oil with..... <hr></blockquote>
<strong>I think this was over the top:
Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
..........
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really ?
Have you ever read some Islamic or Palestinian web sites ?
Have you ever seen Al-Jazira TV ?
Have you read some of what the most prominent muslim leaders of the Arab world have to say about the suicide bombings ?
A few days ago I was watching Jeremy Paxman interview Amro Musa ( the Arab league's chairman) here on BBC 2 newsnight, whatever Paxman tried to do he couldn't get Mr Musa to simply condemn suicide bombings against Israelis, every time he was asked about it he just started rambling on about the occupation like it was some mantra ...
<a href="http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=214"; target="_blank">http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=214</a>;
<a href="http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020328-95079327.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020328-95079327.htm</a>;
The Palestinian National Charter
Please compare this with Israel's declaration of independance ...
<a href="http://www.ict.org.il/documents/documentdet.cfm?docid=13"; target="_blank">http://www.ict.org.il/documents/documentdet.cfm?docid=13</a>;
<a href="http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story419.html"; target="_blank">http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story419.html</a>;
Check this site out a little.. its a typical example of that Palestinian self pity and denial loop I was relating to in previous posts .... no reference to Arab errors or evil action at all only a meticulous script explaining how israel is responsible for all of the Palestinian's problems......no sober self assesments or any sign of a reasonable pragmatic path to a solution offered there...
[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>I think this was over the top:
</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, that is over the top. But it's also an accurate depiction of the beliefs of the side you've chosen, New.
More info re Arafat's involvment with terror....
Neither one of them is capable of helping any peace process. You don't have to convince me that Arafat is a bad guy, I've said it over and over again myself.
[quote]I DO accept responsibility for Israel's mistakes and barbarous actions.<hr></blockquote>
I posted that picture in response to something you said:
" the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence..."
Both groups are violent shitheads.
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I would looooove this:
exchange for recognition of Israel's borders. 1. An Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian areas;
2. An end to the Israeli siege of the West Bank town of Ramallah;
3. Deployment of an international peacekeeping force;
4. Reconstruction of damaged Palestinian areas;
5. Renunciation of violence;
6. Talks on a political settlement to Israeli-Palestinian issues, as opposed to near-term security issues;
7. An end to Israeli settlements in Palestinian areas.
8. U.S. leadership in implementing United Nations resolution 242 calling for an Israeli withdrawal from lands captured in the 1967 Six-Day War, in 1. An Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian areas; 2. An end to the Israeli siege of the West Bank town of Ramallah; 3. Deployment of an international peacekeeping force; 4. Reconstruction of damaged Palestinian areas; 5. Renunciation of violence; 6. Talks on a political settlement to Israeli-Palestinian issues...
Peace in that region would make me happy.