Impressive number. Apple does seem to have squeezed as many units as possible from their suppliers. They still have to meet much more demand During the next few months when they release it in more countries. This is just the beginning. I expected 2M but 1.7M is close enough for me
I suspect that assembling it in the US would increase the cost by a lot more than $50.
I don't know the minimum wage in China, but in the US it is $10 per hour. With taxes benefits, etc. the cost to the employer is $20 per hour for a $10/hr employee-- everything the Govt(s). deduct from your paycheck, a like amount is paid to the Govt(s) by the employer.
But, these are skilled workers and would, likely, earn $30-$50/hr US-- costing the employer $60-$100/hr.
Then, there are all kinds of legal, regulatory and environmental requirements/restrictions that add to the cost of manufacturing in the US,
If I were to SAWG it, I'd guess that US assembly would add $75-$100 to the price of the iPhone-- that would be particularly onerous for a 16GB iPhone that currently sells for $199,
The automaker comparison is not quite the same-- in most cases the wages are set buy the company and the Unions and are [relatively] competitive worldwide.
My son-in-law just lost his job at Toyota, when they closed the plant in Fremont, CA. They moved the operations to Kentucky, primarily because it is too expensive to manufacture in California. He was offered a transfer and the same pay-- so, obviously there were other costs contributing to the CA plant closing.
Sadly, few companies can afford to manufacture in the US and remain competitive.
...sigh!
,
...sigh! Understood. You're correct. It's more an indictment of state and fed. regulations. taxes, etc. But having said that if the number one tech company can't manufacture in the US and be profitable, we're in more trouble than I thought.
I suspect that assembling it in the US would increase the cost by a lot more than $50.
I don't know the minimum wage in China, but in the US it is $10 per hour. With taxes benefits, etc. the cost to the employer is $20 per hour for a $10/hr employee-- everything the Govt(s). deduct from your paycheck, a like amount is paid to the Govt(s) by the employer.
But, these are skilled workers and would, likely, earn $30-$50/hr US-- costing the employer $60-$100/hr.
Then, there are all kinds of legal, regulatory and environmental requirements/restrictions that add to the cost of manufacturing in the US,
Your numbers are way too high.
- Minimum wage in the U.S. is currently $7.25 per hour, not $10.
- These jobs are not highly skilled. They are people who have been trained to do one task over and over. In my part of the country, you can get a skilled ASME certified welder for $20 per hour. These jobs are far less skilled than that.
- I would be shocked if there's 2 hours of labor in assembling a phone. On an assembly line with people who are trained to do one repetitive task, it's probably half an hour max.
The problem is that the direct labor cost is only a small part of the cost. The regulatory and environmental costs are huge as you've mentioned. Then there's manufacturing overhead (the cost of taxes, utilities, etc for a plant in the U.S. The legal cost do deal with nuisance lawsuits. Lack of availability of quality skilled workers (it's possible to pick up a few low-paid workers here, but try to hire 1,000 good workers for a job slightly over minimum wage).
Then the indirect costs - instead of shipping 1 M phones, you have to ship 1 M circuit boards, 1 M batteries, 1 M cameras, 1 M cases, etc, etc, etc. Each time you have to ship them overseas, they have to be properly packed and protected, shipped, and unpacked at the destination. That's a lot of extra expense. i'd much rather ship 1 M finished phones than 1 M phones coming in 10 different pieces.
The difference is probably closer to $20 per phone. While someone can argue that Apple should just absorb that, they're going to sell 35 M phones this year. They are NOT going to simply leave $700 M in margin on the table. Until our economic situation changes and we become more active in correcting for unfair trade practices, large scale manufacturing is not coming back.
...sigh! Understood. You're correct. It's more an indictment of state and fed. regulations. taxes, etc. But having said that if the number one tech company can't manufacture in the US and be profitable, we're in more trouble than I thought.
Or maybe it's an indictment of other countries where regulations don't do enough to protect workers and the environment. Or maybe it's an indictment of governments in other countries being willing to spend money to promote industries at our expense -- i.e., state sponsored capitalism vs. (quasi) lassez-faire capitalism.
And, may I remind you that hijacking threads is troll-like behavior. This thread isn't about that, and there are plenty of others that are. If you walk like a troll, and you quack like a troll, ...
My post is on topic. The iPhone 4 is not a "hit" if you can't make calls.
But I digress to your point of view. Sorry to be out if line here.
Or maybe it's an indictment of other countries where regulations don't do enough to protect workers and the environment. Or maybe it's an indictment of governments in other countries being willing to spend money to promote industries at our expense -- i.e., state sponsored capitalism vs. (quasi) lassez-faire capitalism.
"lassez-faire"... isn't that a carnival for collie dogs?
I do agree with the quasi-- although that too, is evolving.
I will not be surprised when the Feds attempt to dictate (regulate/tax) the factory conditions in foreign countries that manufacture goods for USA companies.
The whole issue of foreign manufacturing, working conditions, environment... is not easy to resolve.
Many countries are trying to leap into the 21st century from very primitive conditions. It may be worth it (to them) to set aside regulations, working conditions, environment concerns to attain their broader goals.
I'm reminded of the scene from Slumdog Millionaire where the young boy is trapped in the outhouse... he was willing to "take a swim" to attain his broader goals.
I've read that many of the "terrible working conditions" are far superior than those of the average citizen of some countries.
Are these countries any more wrong than the US has been in the past to attain its goals?
Don't they deserve their chance at the brass ring?
Our advanced society pays convicted felon school teachers "not to teach" because they have tenure. Several states are on the verge of bankruptcy because of things like generous pensions that that allow works with 10-20 years employment to retire at full salary...
The average government employee makes twice as much a one in industry-- and has better benefits and retirement. It's not surprising that most of the job growth of the past few years has been in government,
Is that capitalism-- or even neo-capitalism?
Or the foreclosure auction by the bank that shows the property valued at $220,000 with an opening bid of $475,000. Somethings are very wrong here!
So, which is worse as to the way governments treat their citizens:
a state sponsored capitalism that doesn't make any promises
or
a (quasi) lassez-faire capitalism that can't keep or sustain its promises?
Many countries are trying to leap into the 21st century from very primitive conditions. It may be worth it (to them) to set aside regulations, working conditions, environment concerns to attain their broader goals.
Who is this "them" of whom you speak? Surely it is not the workers who prefer poor working conditions, or the people who drink the water or breathe the air who aren't worried about whether they are potable or toxic. In the case of China, the "them" is the small circle of political elites. The people have no role in putting them in power, and have no way besides violence to remove them. This small circle increasingly includes individuals who have become vastly wealthy by not caring about things like working conditions or the environment. Their broader goals are becoming increasingly wealthy and remaining in charge of a system which makes them even wealthier.
But for those complaining about glass and reception - there will be plenty - because 1‰ of 1,7 m iPhones is 1700. Number are big these days!
You meant 17,000. Even less than a dozen here at Apple Insider could make a lot of noise. When 100 strong gets noisy, they think they are the majority spokepeople for the "silent majority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhsr
He wrote "per mill" not "per cent"! So 1 per mill of 1.7 million is still 1700! ;-)
Are you being funny? Or, did we invent a new math here?
Are these countries any more wrong than the US has been in the past to attain its goals?
Don't they deserve their chance at the brass ring?
... tough to answer!
.
It would be quite interesting to be able to converse with people who worked in US factories in the late 1800's. I wonder what young children thought about working under such harsh conditions? Or was is it simply the way it was?
... Are these countries any more wrong than the US has been in the past to attain its goals?
Don't they deserve their chance at the brass ring? ...
Or alternatively, are they any less wrong? Or, don't they deserve to be inhumanely exploited by people building fortunes on their backs? The way one asks the questions tends to drive the answers, I think, which was more my point than anything else.
Frankly, I think our economic prospects, over the long haul, against new, "fitter" forms of capitalism, are not good, but I'm not really interested in getting into a full debate on that topic here.
making a verizon branded iois 4 phone i am sure has been already worked out
and don't forget 7g networks are almost all built out for north american verizon
I don't think there will be a CDMA iPhone - ever. I think Verizon is out until 4G is cemented. And the main reason I don't expect it is, ironically, market share.
There are already people whining and making nonsensical claims about monopolistic and anti-competative behavior; enough so that the FTC is "investigating".
If one wants to see how Android will fair in a multi-carrier environment, all one has to do is look overseas. Niche player doesn't begin to describe the overseas Android market. As soon as the iPhone comes to Verizon it's over. No more fooling around.
I think Apple is very aware of this, and I also think for them the iOS platform is very young and they have lots more groundwork to lay. As long as they leave Verizon out there with blackberry, Android and other "competitors", it's enough to keep the feds out of their hair whilst they are setting things up.
We'll see, but between the above regulatory interference insurance and the fact that Verizon have traditionally been raging a$$holes to cellular phone manufacturers (and in turn their end users) I don't think Apple is in an big hurry. Thirdly, the subsidies from AT&T aren't hurting either And as others have pointed out, they can't keep up now and they haven't even completed their international launch. I suspect they would also rather sacrifice some US sales now for some overseas sales now.
It would be quite interesting to be able to converse with people who worked in US factories in the late 1800's. I wonder what young children thought about working under such harsh conditions? Or was is it simply the way it was?
You don't have to converse with them, this has all been written about extensively. Unionization, improved working conditions, and child labor laws came about as a result of not accepting the way things were.
You don't have to converse with them, this has all been written about extensively. Unionization, improved working conditions, and child labor laws came about as a result of not accepting the way things were.
Or one could simply read a bit. There are plenty of stories about conditions in factories a century or more ago. Maybe Upton Sinclair as a starter.
Or one could simply read a bit. There are plenty of stories about conditions in factories a century or more ago. Maybe Upton Sinclair as a starter.
Sinclair was such a rabble-rouser, I probably wouldn't start with him, but an interested person could simply google Pullman Strike or Triangle Shirtwaste Company. The late 19th and early 20th centuries were hardly idyllic times to live if you were a laborer. But speaking of Sinclair, another interesting google exercise is his name and Liberty Hill for an idea of what could happen to a person who advocated for labor rights, well into the 1920s.
You don't have to converse with them, this has all been written about extensively. Unionization, improved working conditions, and child labor laws came about as a result of not accepting the way things were.
Actually, I have read about this quite a bit. I was speaking mostly to those that wail and nash their teeth about current third world working conditions, as this too shall pass.
Comments
I suspect that assembling it in the US would increase the cost by a lot more than $50.
I don't know the minimum wage in China, but in the US it is $10 per hour. With taxes benefits, etc. the cost to the employer is $20 per hour for a $10/hr employee-- everything the Govt(s). deduct from your paycheck, a like amount is paid to the Govt(s) by the employer.
But, these are skilled workers and would, likely, earn $30-$50/hr US-- costing the employer $60-$100/hr.
Then, there are all kinds of legal, regulatory and environmental requirements/restrictions that add to the cost of manufacturing in the US,
If I were to SAWG it, I'd guess that US assembly would add $75-$100 to the price of the iPhone-- that would be particularly onerous for a 16GB iPhone that currently sells for $199,
The automaker comparison is not quite the same-- in most cases the wages are set buy the company and the Unions and are [relatively] competitive worldwide.
My son-in-law just lost his job at Toyota, when they closed the plant in Fremont, CA. They moved the operations to Kentucky, primarily because it is too expensive to manufacture in California. He was offered a transfer and the same pay-- so, obviously there were other costs contributing to the CA plant closing.
Sadly, few companies can afford to manufacture in the US and remain competitive.
...sigh!
,
...sigh! Understood. You're correct. It's more an indictment of state and fed. regulations. taxes, etc. But having said that if the number one tech company can't manufacture in the US and be profitable, we're in more trouble than I thought.
I suspect that assembling it in the US would increase the cost by a lot more than $50.
I don't know the minimum wage in China, but in the US it is $10 per hour. With taxes benefits, etc. the cost to the employer is $20 per hour for a $10/hr employee-- everything the Govt(s). deduct from your paycheck, a like amount is paid to the Govt(s) by the employer.
But, these are skilled workers and would, likely, earn $30-$50/hr US-- costing the employer $60-$100/hr.
Then, there are all kinds of legal, regulatory and environmental requirements/restrictions that add to the cost of manufacturing in the US,
Your numbers are way too high.
- Minimum wage in the U.S. is currently $7.25 per hour, not $10.
- These jobs are not highly skilled. They are people who have been trained to do one task over and over. In my part of the country, you can get a skilled ASME certified welder for $20 per hour. These jobs are far less skilled than that.
- I would be shocked if there's 2 hours of labor in assembling a phone. On an assembly line with people who are trained to do one repetitive task, it's probably half an hour max.
The problem is that the direct labor cost is only a small part of the cost. The regulatory and environmental costs are huge as you've mentioned. Then there's manufacturing overhead (the cost of taxes, utilities, etc for a plant in the U.S. The legal cost do deal with nuisance lawsuits. Lack of availability of quality skilled workers (it's possible to pick up a few low-paid workers here, but try to hire 1,000 good workers for a job slightly over minimum wage).
Then the indirect costs - instead of shipping 1 M phones, you have to ship 1 M circuit boards, 1 M batteries, 1 M cameras, 1 M cases, etc, etc, etc. Each time you have to ship them overseas, they have to be properly packed and protected, shipped, and unpacked at the destination. That's a lot of extra expense. i'd much rather ship 1 M finished phones than 1 M phones coming in 10 different pieces.
The difference is probably closer to $20 per phone. While someone can argue that Apple should just absorb that, they're going to sell 35 M phones this year. They are NOT going to simply leave $700 M in margin on the table. Until our economic situation changes and we become more active in correcting for unfair trade practices, large scale manufacturing is not coming back.
...sigh! Understood. You're correct. It's more an indictment of state and fed. regulations. taxes, etc. But having said that if the number one tech company can't manufacture in the US and be profitable, we're in more trouble than I thought.
Or maybe it's an indictment of other countries where regulations don't do enough to protect workers and the environment. Or maybe it's an indictment of governments in other countries being willing to spend money to promote industries at our expense -- i.e., state sponsored capitalism vs. (quasi) lassez-faire capitalism.
Thats a stupid thing to say (no insult intended)
In 50 years some of us will look back and think "Haha, look at that brick. It can't even do [weird thing that hasn't been invented yet]"
You can't say something has no missing feature until all the features have been invented, which of course they won't be.
~Callum
What important features are missing? The only minor ones I can name are unified push notifications & FaceTime over 3G.
Anything else, which you didn't mention, will take care of itself hardware though I can't immediately name any.
And, may I remind you that hijacking threads is troll-like behavior. This thread isn't about that, and there are plenty of others that are. If you walk like a troll, and you quack like a troll, ...
My post is on topic. The iPhone 4 is not a "hit" if you can't make calls.
But I digress to your point of view. Sorry to be out if line here.
Jeezus look at iPhone and iPad. Mad [revenue] growth drivers. Look again at iPad...!
The last two quarters are projected, but it could work out that way more or less.
Or maybe it's an indictment of other countries where regulations don't do enough to protect workers and the environment. Or maybe it's an indictment of governments in other countries being willing to spend money to promote industries at our expense -- i.e., state sponsored capitalism vs. (quasi) lassez-faire capitalism.
"lassez-faire"... isn't that a carnival for collie dogs?
I do agree with the quasi-- although that too, is evolving.
I will not be surprised when the Feds attempt to dictate (regulate/tax) the factory conditions in foreign countries that manufacture goods for USA companies.
The whole issue of foreign manufacturing, working conditions, environment... is not easy to resolve.
Many countries are trying to leap into the 21st century from very primitive conditions. It may be worth it (to them) to set aside regulations, working conditions, environment concerns to attain their broader goals.
I'm reminded of the scene from Slumdog Millionaire where the young boy is trapped in the outhouse... he was willing to "take a swim" to attain his broader goals.
I've read that many of the "terrible working conditions" are far superior than those of the average citizen of some countries.
Are these countries any more wrong than the US has been in the past to attain its goals?
Don't they deserve their chance at the brass ring?
Our advanced society pays convicted felon school teachers "not to teach" because they have tenure. Several states are on the verge of bankruptcy because of things like generous pensions that that allow works with 10-20 years employment to retire at full salary...
The average government employee makes twice as much a one in industry-- and has better benefits and retirement. It's not surprising that most of the job growth of the past few years has been in government,
Is that capitalism-- or even neo-capitalism?
Or the foreclosure auction by the bank that shows the property valued at $220,000 with an opening bid of $475,000. Somethings are very wrong here!
So, which is worse as to the way governments treat their citizens:
a state sponsored capitalism that doesn't make any promises
or
a (quasi) lassez-faire capitalism that can't keep or sustain its promises?
... tough to answer!
.
Many countries are trying to leap into the 21st century from very primitive conditions. It may be worth it (to them) to set aside regulations, working conditions, environment concerns to attain their broader goals.
Who is this "them" of whom you speak? Surely it is not the workers who prefer poor working conditions, or the people who drink the water or breathe the air who aren't worried about whether they are potable or toxic. In the case of China, the "them" is the small circle of political elites. The people have no role in putting them in power, and have no way besides violence to remove them. This small circle increasingly includes individuals who have become vastly wealthy by not caring about things like working conditions or the environment. Their broader goals are becoming increasingly wealthy and remaining in charge of a system which makes them even wealthier.
Who does the choosing -- it's important.
No, agree!
But for those complaining about glass and reception - there will be plenty - because 1‰ of 1,7 m iPhones is 1700. Number are big these days!
You meant 17,000. Even less than a dozen here at Apple Insider could make a lot of noise. When 100 strong gets noisy, they think they are the majority spokepeople for the "silent majority.
He wrote "per mill" not "per cent"! So 1 per mill of 1.7 million is still 1700! ;-)
Are you being funny? Or, did we invent a new math here?
CGC
Are you being funny? Or, did we invent a new math here?
CGC
Neither. You just need to brush up on math/science symbols.
Are these countries any more wrong than the US has been in the past to attain its goals?
Don't they deserve their chance at the brass ring?
... tough to answer!
.
It would be quite interesting to be able to converse with people who worked in US factories in the late 1800's. I wonder what young children thought about working under such harsh conditions? Or was is it simply the way it was?
... Are these countries any more wrong than the US has been in the past to attain its goals?
Don't they deserve their chance at the brass ring? ...
Or alternatively, are they any less wrong? Or, don't they deserve to be inhumanely exploited by people building fortunes on their backs? The way one asks the questions tends to drive the answers, I think, which was more my point than anything else.
Frankly, I think our economic prospects, over the long haul, against new, "fitter" forms of capitalism, are not good, but I'm not really interested in getting into a full debate on that topic here.
Whither the iKillers?
They're out bashing the iPhone 4 because that's all they have.
How's that 8 megapixel camera going for ya?
apple would not put all its eggs in one basket
making a verizon branded iois 4 phone i am sure has been already worked out
and don't forget 7g networks are almost all built out for north american verizon
I don't think there will be a CDMA iPhone - ever. I think Verizon is out until 4G is cemented. And the main reason I don't expect it is, ironically, market share.
There are already people whining and making nonsensical claims about monopolistic and anti-competative behavior; enough so that the FTC is "investigating".
If one wants to see how Android will fair in a multi-carrier environment, all one has to do is look overseas. Niche player doesn't begin to describe the overseas Android market. As soon as the iPhone comes to Verizon it's over. No more fooling around.
I think Apple is very aware of this, and I also think for them the iOS platform is very young and they have lots more groundwork to lay. As long as they leave Verizon out there with blackberry, Android and other "competitors", it's enough to keep the feds out of their hair whilst they are setting things up.
We'll see, but between the above regulatory interference insurance and the fact that Verizon have traditionally been raging a$$holes to cellular phone manufacturers (and in turn their end users) I don't think Apple is in an big hurry. Thirdly, the subsidies from AT&T aren't hurting either
As with all speculation, we'll see
It would be quite interesting to be able to converse with people who worked in US factories in the late 1800's. I wonder what young children thought about working under such harsh conditions? Or was is it simply the way it was?
You don't have to converse with them, this has all been written about extensively. Unionization, improved working conditions, and child labor laws came about as a result of not accepting the way things were.
You don't have to converse with them, this has all been written about extensively. Unionization, improved working conditions, and child labor laws came about as a result of not accepting the way things were.
Or one could simply read a bit. There are plenty of stories about conditions in factories a century or more ago. Maybe Upton Sinclair as a starter.
Or one could simply read a bit. There are plenty of stories about conditions in factories a century or more ago. Maybe Upton Sinclair as a starter.
Sinclair was such a rabble-rouser, I probably wouldn't start with him, but an interested person could simply google Pullman Strike or Triangle Shirtwaste Company. The late 19th and early 20th centuries were hardly idyllic times to live if you were a laborer. But speaking of Sinclair, another interesting google exercise is his name and Liberty Hill for an idea of what could happen to a person who advocated for labor rights, well into the 1920s.
You don't have to converse with them, this has all been written about extensively. Unionization, improved working conditions, and child labor laws came about as a result of not accepting the way things were.
Actually, I have read about this quite a bit. I was speaking mostly to those that wail and nash their teeth about current third world working conditions, as this too shall pass.
Or one could simply read a bit. There are plenty of stories about conditions in factories a century or more ago. Maybe Upton Sinclair as a starter.
See my response to the good Dr. I was expecting the younger folks here to ponder that question more than get a "go read" response.