Every week Apple doesn't act on iPhone 4 antenna could cost $200M

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  • Reply 181 of 227
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,857member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    i don't care what you do. I have no problem debating you with valid points. That's what this forum is all about. But, don't be a troll and make accusations that aren't true about me.



    ...
  • Reply 182 of 227
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,857member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    ... It is possible to have a design flaw that only affects some people. For example, some of the earlier allegations were that the iphone 'flaw' affects left-handed people more than right handed. Then, that was modified to say that it affects those who hold the phone in their left hand. If that were true, the 'design flaw' would not affect people who held the phone in their right hand, so a 'design flaw' would not necessarily affect everyone.



    So, you're arguing that it is a design flaw?



    There seem to be more than a few reports that, at the same location, it will affect one phone, but not another, when people attempt to make it happen in the way that has been described as "always making it happen". There seems to be something going on that doesn't happen with all phones.



    The thing that is going on with all phones, is, I think, a non-issue. But there does seem to be something going on that affects only a subset of iP4s, the size of which is unclear.
  • Reply 183 of 227
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    So, you're arguing that it is a design flaw?



    There seem to be more than a few reports that, at the same location, it will affect one phone, but not another, when people attempt to make it happen in the way that has been described as "always making it happen". There seems to be something going on that doesn't happen with all phones.



    The thing that is going on with all phones, is, I think, a non-issue. But there does seem to be something going on that affects only a subset of iP4s, the size of which is unclear.



    I can agree with this. I haven' had anything to compare mine against but the best I can do with mine is to get a bar or two to drop occsaionally when i try. I can't get it to searching no matter how strong a singal I start out with. Yesterday I tried when it was at one bar and the signal actually increased as I was holding it
  • Reply 184 of 227
    ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    There seem to be more than a few reports that, at the same location, it will affect one phone, but not another, when people attempt to make it happen in the way that has been described as "always making it happen". There seems to be something going on that doesn't happen with all phones.



    One possible reason for what you stated is because some areas are serviced by both 850 and 1900 frequency bands. For many various reasons, one of the phones might have been on the 850 band and the other one might have been on the 1900 band at the same location. And my theory is that this issue only affects one of the frequency bands. Thus why only one of the phones was affected.
  • Reply 185 of 227
    foo2foo2 Posts: 1,077member
    Tentatively I am saying the signal attenuation problem is fixed for my iPhone 4. If Apple had maintained Field Test Mode in iOS 4, I'd know better if--or just how well--the situation has improved.



    After reading these reports:



    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=955742

    http://www.iphonehacks.com/2010/06/s...on-issues.html

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/13/iphone4_sim/



    I examined how my SIM rests in its holder. It definitely has its electrical contacts overlapping the metal holder's frame. I laid a very thin slice of 3M satin tape along the top edge of the SIM on the contacts side (making sure a significant portion of the contacts was still exposed), reseated the SIM, and inserted it back in the phone.



    Result: no more loss of bars when held "wrong". Unfortunately I'm away on business, so I can't test at my desk, where I routinely saw complete loss of signal (from 4-5 bars to "No Service") when held wrong. Where I'm currently at, a reduction in bars from 5 to 3 was previously seen when held wrong for 20 seconds.



    Conclusion: variability in how SIMs are cut and seated might cause some phones to exhibit the problem and others not. If the electrical connection between SIM and SIM holder is intermittent, this might also cause some phones to exhibit the problem only some of the time. Finally, this particular issue for this particular phone appears to be a hardware problem, not software.



    At least 3 other sites are already talking about it. AI seems a bit slow in picking up on this positive news.



    Demand Apple bring back Field Test Mode in the next iOS 4 update.
  • Reply 186 of 227
    ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post


    I can agree with this. I haven' had anything to compare mine against but the best I can do with mine is to get a bar or two to drop occsaionally when i try. I can't get it to searching no matter how strong a singal I start out with. Yesterday I tried when it was at one bar and the signal actually increased as I was holding it



    Try downloading the speedtest app and check to see if your download/upload speeds are affected by touching the spot. On my iPhone 4, the signal bars only drop a bar or two at some locations, but the upload and/or the download speed is greatly affected.
  • Reply 187 of 227
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    So, you're arguing that it is a design flaw?



    No. I meant what I said.



    The argument that something can't be a design flaw because only some people experience it is bad logic.



    That is not the same as saying that it IS a design flaw. Simply saying that you can't tell if it's a design flaw simply based on the number of people who experience it.











    On a separate note, the first return data is in:

    http://fortunebrainstormtech.files.w...-54-22-am1.png



    Out of 25 stores sampled, there were about 11 iPhones returned. So much for the claims that everyone's seeing the problem. Even if each store has only sold 40 phones, that's less than 1% return rate.
  • Reply 188 of 227
    thespazthespaz Posts: 71member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    Their software fix has nothing to do with fixing the reception issue. It only deals with changing the bars that are displayed.



    No... that's just what they TOLD us that they're doing. They may be doing way more than that, but they decided to give us the information that most people would easily understand. When I'm talking about computers to my Mom, I word things way differently than when I'm talking to another techie. Sometimes I even lie to her just because I know that it's all she needs to know and that telling her the truth would just confuse her. All people need to know is that Apple is working on a fix via a software update in a couple of weeks. Once it's out, and the problem still persists (except it's more likely that people who weren't previously experiencing the problem, will now experience the problem because the bars will be more accurate).



    I can't tell you if the software update will solve the problem completely or just make it worse, but it's clear that Apple has a huge issue on their hands.



    I have a feeling that the iPhone 4 is going to be remembered, but not in a good way. A few years down the road, people will be saying... "Hey, remember the iPhone 4? Oh yeah, truly revolutionary... if only it made phone calls when you held it normally... hehe"



    I suggest we just wait to see exactly what the software fix does instead of taking Apple's exact words for it. Maybe they're just changing the bar display, but maybe they're changing a lot more than that... we won't know until it's out.



    I hope I made some sense there.
  • Reply 189 of 227
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    Try downloading the speedtest app and check to see if your download/upload speeds are affected by touching the spot. On my iPhone 4, the signal bars only drop a bar or two at some locations, but the upload and/or the download speed is greatly affected.



    Have and they've not. I rotinely get faster speeds than I had with my 3G and 3GS
  • Reply 190 of 227
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post


    Why should Apple be stunned now, when people were publicly harping on this 2 years ago?





    Why doesn't enter into it. They said they were stunned. That is good enough for me.



    Apple has never let us down. I don't think that they will let us down this time.
  • Reply 191 of 227
    ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    On a separate note, the first return data is in:

    http://fortunebrainstormtech.files.w...-54-22-am1.png



    Out of 25 stores sampled, there were about 11 iPhones returned. So much for the claims that everyone's seeing the problem. Even if each store has only sold 40 phones, that's less than 1% return rate.



    Where is the methodology of the source of this data. That chart means nothing without some background on exactly how they came up with those figures. Also it will be interesting to see how many people are just waiting through the 30-day trial period, hoping Apple will come up with a fix, before finally returning it.
  • Reply 192 of 227
    ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post


    Have and they've not. I rotinely get faster speeds than I had with my 3G and 3GS



    You might be using the frequency band that is not affected. Which is my theory why not all people see the issue.
  • Reply 193 of 227
    foo2foo2 Posts: 1,077member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    Why doesn't enter into it. They said they were stunned. That is good enough for me.



    Apple has never let us down. I don't think that they will let us down this time.



    Hah! Apple is so good manipulating the press that I presume Apple said they were "stunned" because that would cause the press and public to associate a change to the bars software with fixing the antenna issue, even though Apple said nothing of the sort.
  • Reply 194 of 227
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Incorrect. There is no restocking fee for 30 days. If they try to charge you a restocking fee, talk to a manager.



    .



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagman View Post


    I was not charged any restocking fee.





    I may be wrong but I was specifically told by the ATT rep that I would be charged the restocking fee. I confirmed this by speaking with a customer service rep on the phone, but was put on hold when asked to speak with the manager and was eventually told that I would have to take the matter up with the person I dealt with at the "point of sale".



    I didn't bother, however, my last billing cycle showed no charge.. So, either I will be billed next cycle or ATT waived the fee despite telling me the contrary, twice.
  • Reply 195 of 227
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,303member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hodar View Post


    When Toyota screws up, they do a re-call and fix the problem; that's part of the reason we love them. Find a problem, fix the problem. You don't see them ignoring them, or telling their customers that they are idiots who are 'driving them wrong'.



    Oh yeah? I don't know where you are looking, but it took an act of Congress to get Toyota to do anything. Ask Steve Wozniak, ask James Sikes, heck even ask the former in house Toyota attorney Demitrios Biller, he has tons of documents that proves Toyota knew of several problems and didn't act on them.



    You need to use a better example than Toyota.
  • Reply 196 of 227
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    Where is the methodology of the source of this data. That chart means nothing without some background on exactly how they came up with those figures. Also it will be interesting to see how many people are just waiting through the 30-day trial period, hoping Apple will come up with a fix, before finally returning it.



    Of course you're going to attack the data - you have nothing else.



    I don't know how the data was collected. They said they talked to store management and reported the number of returns.



    I suspect that store management has a pretty good idea of the number of phones returned. If you have other evidence that shows massive iPhone returns, feel free to present it.
  • Reply 197 of 227
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,303member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post


    I may be wrong but I was specifically told by the ATT rep that I would be charged the restocking fee. I confirmed this by speaking with a customer service rep on the phone, but was put on hold when asked to speak with the manager and was eventually told that I would have to take the matter up with the person I dealt with at the "point of sale".



    I didn't bother, however, my last billing cycle showed no charge.. So, either I will be billed next cycle or ATT waived the fee despite telling me the contrary, twice.



    I wouldn't be intimidated by AT&T if you want to return your iPhone under suspect that it is defective. If you claim it's defective, there is NO WAY they can charge you a restocking fee. What can they restock, a defective phone? At this point, it's safe to say that AT&T can't be sure that their network is having some effect on the signal issues some people are experiencing. While there is no concrete proof, they can't rule it out. Stand firm and don't be intimidated by a phone monkey. If you can go to the store and return it, do it. If they give you trouble make a big stink right there in the store. I have always had better luck in the store than over the phone.
  • Reply 198 of 227
    ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Of course you're going to attack the data - you have nothing else.



    I don't know how the data was collected. They said they talked to store management and reported the number of returns.



    I suspect that store management has a pretty good idea of the number of phones returned. If you have other evidence that shows massive iPhone returns, feel free to present it.



    Bad data in = bad data out. Where is the methodology for this chart ? You are the one presenting data with no facts behind it. If you are going to present data, it's up to you to show some methodology behind it. Your link is just a chart. The chart doesn't even say exactly what it's charting and when this data was polled. Is it even the iPhone 4 ? And look at the source of this data. A financial company that has a buy rating for Apple. Hmmm.
  • Reply 199 of 227
    patspats Posts: 112member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hodar View Post


    Ok, Noob ... the origional cell phones all had external antennas - yup they did. And those antennas had a RUBBER cover going the length of the antenna in the early phones, later phones used a carbon impregnated core with a plastic surround. The antenna NEVER served as the handle.



    Apple opted to use the antenna as a handle, as it's impossible to hold the phone without touching the antenna. Apple could have opted for a poly clear-coat, or better yet, they could have applied an annodization layer to the exterior of the antenna. The annodization could be clear, or any color they could want to create. (Hint, poly and annodization can be an insulator).



    However, this does not reduce the capacitive effect we humans introduce to the RF issue. Simply standing near an antenna changes the impedance of the system. Maybe you've noticed your radio works better, or worse if you touch the antenna, or simply tuning it to the station, then walking away changes the radio's ability to grab a channel. Cell phones are no different.



    Your radio has a stainless steel telescoping antenna - but guess what? That antenna is specifically designed to NOT be a handle, and to NOT be held during normal use.



    Your statement regarding re-tuning the receiver is flawed - I am unaware of a digitally tunable capacitor. Digitally controlled resistors, yup. But there just aren't digitally controlled energy storage media in a microchip format (inductors or capacitors). Thus, you 'tune' your receiver in hardware and use software filters to further re-fine the tuning - but if you detune the antenna system by adding a variable 10-40 pF (human) load - I don't see how Apple can overcome this in firmware.



    Apple advertised, and Stevie stated that you can hold the iPhone anyway you want. ANY WAY means any way. Are we clear on that? Perhaps the stupidest statement that Jobs could have made - "You are holding it wrong". Utterly inane. We have photo's of the phone being held 'wrong' by Steve Jobs during his presentation, as well as their televised commercials. A wiser reply would be "We are aware of some issues, and are looking into them". No committment, no admission of fault, no timeline. It's better than calling your customers an idiot.





    Here I will point you to Digitally Tuned Capacitor

    A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE™ technology using UltraCMOS™ process and HaRP™ design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values.

    The capacitor values can range from 0.5 to 10 pF with typical tuning ratios of 3:1 to 6:1, or 10:1 in some cases. Typical switching speed is less than 5 µs. Capacitor Q's greater than 100 are possible. The frequency range is up to 3 GHz, and power handling is up to 40 dBm. The chip operates with a supply voltage of 2.4 to 3.0 V with current consumption in the 20- to 100-µA range, unlike other . The device comes in a 2- by 2-mm dual flat no-lead (DFN) 8L flip-chip or plastic package.

    It is ideal for antenna impedance matching in multi-band GSM/WCDMA cellular handsets and mobile TV recivers that must operate over wide frequency ranges such as the European DVB-H and Japanese ISDB-T mobile TV systems, due to its small size, high Q factor, low voltage operation and current consumption.[2]



    Or maybe from the chip supplier for Apple

    http://www.skyworksinc.com/downloads...ech_052010.pdf



    Like I said you can keep complaining, take the unit back or wait for the engineers but don't assume your the smartest RF guy on the web and know what Apple is doing with their antenna and receiver designs. I won't argue that folks can interrupt the signal path by putting their meaty palm around the antenna gap, but beyond that the rest is guesswork, and a ton of the problems can be fixed with software tuning so the whole recall thing is BS.
  • Reply 200 of 227
    if Apple and Jobz would just fix it and move on this would all be over but NOOOOOOOOOO they must lie, deceive, stall, insult.:grumbl e:
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