The flaw with Apple's reasoning on this is that the iPhone 4 exhibits these attenuation signals from there mere touch of the seam between the two antennas.
Except for a few things:
1. Actual iPhone 4 owners are reporting better reception than their previous phones
2. Nobody just "touches" between the seems. They hold it like the Nokia video.
3. Apple's return rate is less than the iPhone 3GS.
Since you are repeating the same, already refuted argument, here's the same reply.
I feel like my argument adequately addresses your concerns with my reasoning.
And those "normal" grips shown in the Apple videos are the cupping death grips that cover the entire antenna area. Looks pretty unnatural to me, but I guess each person is entitled to their own opinions.
They all asked for this. They are the ones that started making fun of Apple's position. Apple did not drag anyone else into this. They all jumped in themselves via dogpiling Apple.
I am highly surprised Apple responded in any way. It's out of character for them. I believe nothing would have changed had they not had their demonstration, and this is suggested by the response. I think, perhaps, Steve and teh execs. realized that the money they had earmarked for marketing the iPhone 4 this year would not need to be spent, thanks to Gizmodo and the gullible. So they decided to funnel a little into that presentation "Why not? it's all hay, " I bet they thought.
I feel like my argument adequately addresses your concerns with my reasoning.
Which argument was that?
You haven't addressed anyone's criticisms of your distortions and misrepresentations and confounding of issues. All you do is repeat the same thing over and over again, regardless of how wrong or irrelevant your claims are shown to be.
When you hold the phone with the corner resting in your palm, your skin touches the seam, and the problem is replicated.
Again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Oh, but one finger on the iPhone antenna seam is a natural hold? The only difference between the 2 is the location and that one's antenna is internal, while the other is not, which I guess throws cold water on the whole, "Apple screwed up with an external antenna," talking point. Sorry about that.
If you want to shift your claim to, "But the iPhone is affected by a normal grip," well, so are all the other phones we've seen videos of. So, one finger, normal grip, there's nothing unique about the iP4 in this regard, and your criticism, while it can be directed at other phones as well, falls flat on its face when you attempt to single out the iP4.
You haven't addressed anyone's criticisms of your distortions and misrepresentations and confounding of issues. All you do is repeat the same thing over and over again, regardless of how wrong or irrelevant your claims are shown to be.
If your argument is that the grips shown in the apple videos are somehow "natural," I'm going to have to disagree with you and leave it at that. Neither of us have any real basis to argue over what grip is natural and what grip isn't other than our personal preferences.
I reviewed a sampling of the videos that someone linked to, none documents whether signal is actually lost, aka a call dropped or data transfer stops.
Can someone link me to a video that documents that on a phone other than the iP4?
Sorry, no other cell phones have ever dropped calls, so there's no videos of it.
Think about it!!
If messing with an antenna makes the available signal less than otherwise, you'd only need to be an area of just the right available cell to demonstrate this. If touching that phones "Bad Spot" causes -XdB signal loss, then in an area where only that amount of signal is available, touching the spot will drop the signal, and the call.
Except that the iP4 has been shown to lose signal completely, aka drop a call or stop data transfer. Have these other phones demonstrated loss of data or dropped calls when gripped normally? Honest question, I only see links to videos to that show signal bars drop. I really over the the bar drop thing, iP4 or any other phone, as long as use is not adversely affected.
If your argument is that the grips shown in the apple videos are somehow "natural," I'm going to have to disagree with you and leave it at that. Neither of us have any real basis to argue over what grip is natural and what grip isn't other than our personal preferences.
So, you're abandoning the "natural grip" argument? No problem.
And your "death spot" argument is already refuted, so nothing left for you there.
Oh, but one finger on the iPhone antenna seam is a natural hold? The only difference between the 2 is the location and that one's antenna is internal, while the other is not, which I guess throws cold water on the whole, "Apple screwed up with an external antenna," talking point. Sorry about that.
If you want to shift your claim to, "But the iPhone is affected by a normal grip," well, so are all the other phones we've seen videos of. So, one finger, normal grip, there's nothing unique about the iP4 in this regard, and your criticism, while it can be directed at other phones as well, falls flat on its face when you attempt to single out the iP4.
Heres my earlier reply:
A normal grip, with the fingers on the side and the corner resting in your palm is a natural grip. It has enough contact with the seam to cause the same problem as demonstrated by the finger. I wasn't arguing that the finger touch was a natural grip, only that it demonstrates that the problem is one of physical contact with the antenna, and no other phone has that problem.
Once again:
My point is that there are two issues here that the iPhone 4 suffers from
1) Signal attenuation that occurs when you cover the entire antenna from a death grip (which only occurs during an unnatural hold).
AND
2) Signal loss that occurs when you merely touch the seam with either your finger or your palm (which can occur in a natural hold).
Sorry, no other cell phones have ever dropped calls, so there's no videos of it.
Think about it!!
If messing with an antenna makes the available signal less than otherwise, you'd only need to be an area of just the right available cell to demonstrate this. If touching that phones "Bad Spot" causes -XdB signal loss, then in an area where only that amount of signal is available, touching the spot will drop the signal, and the call.
You haven't addressed anyone's criticisms of your distortions and misrepresentations and confounding of issues. All you do is repeat the same thing over and over again, regardless of how wrong or irrelevant your claims are shown to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
So, you're abandoning the "natural grip" argument? No problem.
And your "death spot" argument is already refuted, so nothing left for you there.
Got anything else?
I wasn't abandoning the "natural grip" argument, just giving it up on you since its a subjective argument.
Except that the iP4 has been shown to lose signal completely, aka drop a call or stop data transfer. Have these other phones demonstrated loss of data or dropped calls when gripped normally? Honest question, I only see links to videos to that show signal bars drop. I really over the the bar drop thing, iP4 or any other phone, as long as use is not adversely affected.
They all lose the amount of signal they are going to lose immediately. Any of these phones will drop a call or stop data transfer if the signal is already weak enough that the drop from holding them is enough to drop below their minimum threshold. The iP4 is no different, they all do exactly the same thing: signal loss is signal loss.
Except that the iP4 has been shown to lose signal completely, aka drop a call or stop data transfer. Have these other phones demonstrated loss of data or dropped calls when gripped normally? Honest question, I only see links to videos to that show signal bars drop. I really over the the bar drop thing, iP4 or any other phone, as long as use is not adversely affected.
I refer you to my post:
Quote:
If messing with an antenna makes the available signal less than otherwise, you'd only need to be an area of just the right available cell to demonstrate this. If touching that phones "Bad Spot" causes -XdB signal loss, then in an area where only that amount of signal is available, touching the spot will drop the signal, and the call.
What is the point? Do you believe it can't be demonstrated? IF it can, you believe this is meaningful? You are MISSING DETAILS.
If you drop a call, with no other added information, it tells you nothing.
The information we need is basically unknowable (the available cell... we NEED to know this to do an experiment).
You're trying to argue a thin point... that you haven't seen other phone's drop calls with a single touch... but even if you saw these videos, I am telling you they mean nothing.
A dropped call means weak cell. No one can prove otherwise, apparently.
As terse as Steve's comment was about "avoid holding it that way..." That is exactly what one should do when in a weak signal zone. Once you know what is going on you simply adjust your grip accordingly.
1. iP4 almost identical dropped calls as 3GS
2. Return rate of iP4 almost nil
3. Many people report even better reception than 3GS
4. Everything about the phone and the screen and the software is stellar
and 5. Don't like it, don't buy it or return it for full refund.
The phone is so spectacular they can't meet demand and virtually no one is going to give it up once they have it. I wish I could find one as my 3GS died yesterday due to a swimming accident.
Not quite. It was stated that it's under 1 more calls per hundred so safe to assume it's probably in the area of .75-1 more dropped calls. The said drop rate for the 3GS has been around 2%. That gives an assumed drop rate of 2.75-3% for the iPhone 4.
In it's January quarterly report AT&T stated an average drop call rate for all 3G phones models to be 0.91% which gives the iPhone 4 a minimum of 3X the drop rate of their average and it's safe to say with basic math that the iPhone itself is bringing that average up so the rate of dropped calls would be 3-4X higher than most other phones.
Thought it's pre 4.01, it demonstrates a single finger causing attenuation.
Ok, one video. How many more reports are there of a single finger dropping the signal to nothing? Like most iPhone 4 owners, I cannot recreate this issue.
They all lose the amount of signal they are going to lose immediately. Any of these phones will drop a call or stop data transfer if the signal is already weak enough that the drop from holding them is enough to drop below their minimum threshold. The iP4 is no different, they all do exactly the same thing: signal loss is signal loss.
Comments
The flaw with Apple's reasoning on this is that the iPhone 4 exhibits these attenuation signals from there mere touch of the seam between the two antennas.
Except for a few things:
1. Actual iPhone 4 owners are reporting better reception than their previous phones
2. Nobody just "touches" between the seems. They hold it like the Nokia video.
3. Apple's return rate is less than the iPhone 3GS.
Since you are repeating the same, already refuted argument, here's the same reply.
I feel like my argument adequately addresses your concerns with my reasoning.
And those "normal" grips shown in the Apple videos are the cupping death grips that cover the entire antenna area. Looks pretty unnatural to me, but I guess each person is entitled to their own opinions.
Except for a few things:
1. Actual iPhone 4 owners are reporting better reception than their previous phones
2. Nobody just "touches" between the seems. They hold it like the Nokia video.
3. Apple's return rate is less than the iPhone 3GS.
When you hold the phone with the corner resting in your palm, your skin touches the seam, and the problem is replicated.
++
They all asked for this. They are the ones that started making fun of Apple's position. Apple did not drag anyone else into this. They all jumped in themselves via dogpiling Apple.
I am highly surprised Apple responded in any way. It's out of character for them. I believe nothing would have changed had they not had their demonstration, and this is suggested by the response. I think, perhaps, Steve and teh execs. realized that the money they had earmarked for marketing the iPhone 4 this year would not need to be spent, thanks to Gizmodo and the gullible. So they decided to funnel a little into that presentation "Why not? it's all hay, " I bet they thought.
I feel like my argument adequately addresses your concerns with my reasoning.
Which argument was that?
You haven't addressed anyone's criticisms of your distortions and misrepresentations and confounding of issues. All you do is repeat the same thing over and over again, regardless of how wrong or irrelevant your claims are shown to be.
Can someone link me to a video that documents that on a phone other than the iP4?
When you hold the phone with the corner resting in your palm, your skin touches the seam, and the problem is replicated.
Again...
Oh, but one finger on the iPhone antenna seam is a natural hold? The only difference between the 2 is the location and that one's antenna is internal, while the other is not, which I guess throws cold water on the whole, "Apple screwed up with an external antenna," talking point. Sorry about that.
If you want to shift your claim to, "But the iPhone is affected by a normal grip," well, so are all the other phones we've seen videos of. So, one finger, normal grip, there's nothing unique about the iP4 in this regard, and your criticism, while it can be directed at other phones as well, falls flat on its face when you attempt to single out the iP4.
Which argument was that?
You haven't addressed anyone's criticisms of your distortions and misrepresentations and confounding of issues. All you do is repeat the same thing over and over again, regardless of how wrong or irrelevant your claims are shown to be.
If your argument is that the grips shown in the apple videos are somehow "natural," I'm going to have to disagree with you and leave it at that. Neither of us have any real basis to argue over what grip is natural and what grip isn't other than our personal preferences.
I reviewed a sampling of the videos that someone linked to, none documents whether signal is actually lost, aka a call dropped or data transfer stops.
Can someone link me to a video that documents that on a phone other than the iP4?
Sorry, no other cell phones have ever dropped calls, so there's no videos of it.
Think about it!!
If messing with an antenna makes the available signal less than otherwise, you'd only need to be an area of just the right available cell to demonstrate this. If touching that phones "Bad Spot" causes -XdB signal loss, then in an area where only that amount of signal is available, touching the spot will drop the signal, and the call.
Again...
Except that the iP4 has been shown to lose signal completely, aka drop a call or stop data transfer. Have these other phones demonstrated loss of data or dropped calls when gripped normally? Honest question, I only see links to videos to that show signal bars drop. I really over the the bar drop thing, iP4 or any other phone, as long as use is not adversely affected.
If your argument is that the grips shown in the apple videos are somehow "natural," I'm going to have to disagree with you and leave it at that. Neither of us have any real basis to argue over what grip is natural and what grip isn't other than our personal preferences.
So, you're abandoning the "natural grip" argument? No problem.
And your "death spot" argument is already refuted, so nothing left for you there.
Got anything else?
Oh, but one finger on the iPhone antenna seam is a natural hold? The only difference between the 2 is the location and that one's antenna is internal, while the other is not, which I guess throws cold water on the whole, "Apple screwed up with an external antenna," talking point. Sorry about that.
If you want to shift your claim to, "But the iPhone is affected by a normal grip," well, so are all the other phones we've seen videos of. So, one finger, normal grip, there's nothing unique about the iP4 in this regard, and your criticism, while it can be directed at other phones as well, falls flat on its face when you attempt to single out the iP4.
Heres my earlier reply:
A normal grip, with the fingers on the side and the corner resting in your palm is a natural grip. It has enough contact with the seam to cause the same problem as demonstrated by the finger. I wasn't arguing that the finger touch was a natural grip, only that it demonstrates that the problem is one of physical contact with the antenna, and no other phone has that problem.
Once again:
My point is that there are two issues here that the iPhone 4 suffers from
1) Signal attenuation that occurs when you cover the entire antenna from a death grip (which only occurs during an unnatural hold).
AND
2) Signal loss that occurs when you merely touch the seam with either your finger or your palm (which can occur in a natural hold).
Sorry, no other cell phones have ever dropped calls, so there's no videos of it.
Think about it!!
If messing with an antenna makes the available signal less than otherwise, you'd only need to be an area of just the right available cell to demonstrate this. If touching that phones "Bad Spot" causes -XdB signal loss, then in an area where only that amount of signal is available, touching the spot will drop the signal, and the call.
Huh? Are you for real?
Which argument was that?
You haven't addressed anyone's criticisms of your distortions and misrepresentations and confounding of issues. All you do is repeat the same thing over and over again, regardless of how wrong or irrelevant your claims are shown to be.
So, you're abandoning the "natural grip" argument? No problem.
And your "death spot" argument is already refuted, so nothing left for you there.
Got anything else?
I wasn't abandoning the "natural grip" argument, just giving it up on you since its a subjective argument.
Except that the iP4 has been shown to lose signal completely, aka drop a call or stop data transfer. Have these other phones demonstrated loss of data or dropped calls when gripped normally? Honest question, I only see links to videos to that show signal bars drop. I really over the the bar drop thing, iP4 or any other phone, as long as use is not adversely affected.
They all lose the amount of signal they are going to lose immediately. Any of these phones will drop a call or stop data transfer if the signal is already weak enough that the drop from holding them is enough to drop below their minimum threshold. The iP4 is no different, they all do exactly the same thing: signal loss is signal loss.
Except that the iP4 has been shown to lose signal completely, aka drop a call or stop data transfer. Have these other phones demonstrated loss of data or dropped calls when gripped normally? Honest question, I only see links to videos to that show signal bars drop. I really over the the bar drop thing, iP4 or any other phone, as long as use is not adversely affected.
I refer you to my post:
If messing with an antenna makes the available signal less than otherwise, you'd only need to be an area of just the right available cell to demonstrate this. If touching that phones "Bad Spot" causes -XdB signal loss, then in an area where only that amount of signal is available, touching the spot will drop the signal, and the call.
What is the point? Do you believe it can't be demonstrated? IF it can, you believe this is meaningful? You are MISSING DETAILS.
If you drop a call, with no other added information, it tells you nothing.
The information we need is basically unknowable (the available cell... we NEED to know this to do an experiment).
You're trying to argue a thin point... that you haven't seen other phone's drop calls with a single touch... but even if you saw these videos, I am telling you they mean nothing.
A dropped call means weak cell. No one can prove otherwise, apparently.
As terse as Steve's comment was about "avoid holding it that way..." That is exactly what one should do when in a weak signal zone. Once you know what is going on you simply adjust your grip accordingly.
1. iP4 almost identical dropped calls as 3GS
2. Return rate of iP4 almost nil
3. Many people report even better reception than 3GS
4. Everything about the phone and the screen and the software is stellar
and 5. Don't like it, don't buy it or return it for full refund.
The phone is so spectacular they can't meet demand and virtually no one is going to give it up once they have it. I wish I could find one as my 3GS died yesterday due to a swimming accident.
Not quite. It was stated that it's under 1 more calls per hundred so safe to assume it's probably in the area of .75-1 more dropped calls. The said drop rate for the 3GS has been around 2%. That gives an assumed drop rate of 2.75-3% for the iPhone 4.
In it's January quarterly report AT&T stated an average drop call rate for all 3G phones models to be 0.91% which gives the iPhone 4 a minimum of 3X the drop rate of their average and it's safe to say with basic math that the iPhone itself is bringing that average up so the rate of dropped calls would be 3-4X higher than most other phones.
Here you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7tfH9oBQbk
Thought it's pre 4.01, it demonstrates a single finger causing attenuation.
Ok, one video. How many more reports are there of a single finger dropping the signal to nothing? Like most iPhone 4 owners, I cannot recreate this issue.
They all lose the amount of signal they are going to lose immediately. Any of these phones will drop a call or stop data transfer if the signal is already weak enough that the drop from holding them is enough to drop below their minimum threshold. The iP4 is no different, they all do exactly the same thing: signal loss is signal loss.
So, there are no videos?
So, there are no videos?
You are fundamentally mistaken in believing that these videos would mean anything, whether they exist or not.