960x480? 480x320? iPhone 3G GPU, iphone 3GS GPU, iPhone 4G GPU? OpenGL ES 1.0 or 2.0?
True... but how many permutations vs 100 x 244 (adding different CPUs, OpenGL and different GPUs).
And how many small developers can afford to buy 244 handsets (and their contracts)... then iteratively test them across 100 Android OS Versions (and OEM Skins) for every app.
You're right... a friend of my next door neighbour's daughter's ex-husband's brother just bought an Android phone instead of an iPhone... Apple's going to hell.
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Do you choose to believe Steve when he claims that iOS is "NOT CLOSED" because Android is "fragmented"?
Is that being honest? Is that an example of a cogent point?
Well if he had said that he would be full of shiite, but he didn't, it was only you that said he did. Two independent points, both true cannot be arbitrarily linked together to create some alternate universe of meaning where one supposedly becomes used to create the other.
In summary, you are lying. Making stuff up. Quoting phantasms. Given that the below barely qualifies as drivel.
Quote:
IMO, given all the history, it is not advisable to believe anything Steve says unless and until it is corroborated. He uses words to mean things that few other people realize. So he can claim, for example, that because Android is "fragmented", that means that iOS is indeed "open". Or something like that, if you don't really listen or think.
That was such a iPhone-centric response. "Denial ain't a river in Egypt, my friend."
denial about what? The unmitigated success of the "flash-less, closed-ecosystem" iPhone? Apparently it's not a big deal to TENS of millions of people. Who gives a hoot if android ships more devices, when most of them are crap? With the exception of the Droid line of verizon phones, most android releases are subpar. EVO 4G is a notable exception. RIM is dead. They are slowly (repeat - slowly) losing enterprise while making up very little ground with consumer. WP7 is DOA, despite being a somewhat novel approach to UI.
Steve would probably have been better off saying "Android being claimed as 'open' doesn't appear to be a tangible benefit compared to iOS" instead of saying that it's "disingenuous" because it's not disingenuous, it's a fact - Android is open. Just because it's open doesn't mean that it's good, bad or ugly, it's just open.
When Google is stressing that Android is open, this carries the implicit message that this is a good thing for the consumer in the end. And calling that implicit message as disingenuous is certainly somewhat justified. So, in the end Jobs can exactly be understood as what you suggest.
When Jobs said, 'we think this is a bit disingenuous', the 'this' could refer to 'open' or the fact that Google is stressing open as if it were a major advantage. If we think that Jobs is an arrogant jerk, we will naturally be more inclined to think he is referring to the former (open), but if we try to think what a rational mind could have meant with it, we will probably believe the latter (open not being a major advantage).
A general problem naturally is that in such official company statements (into which we can subsume Jobs words) there will always be a mixture of facts, general wisdoms, and conclusion, conjecture and opinion. We can always not agree with opinions, conjecture and certain conclusions but that does not mean they are lying or making things up, just that the listener or reader has to pay attention to differentiate the statements.
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Everyone at my office that bought an Android phone wishes they'd bought an iPhone.
You forget the iPad’s dimensions if we’re talking about a Universal app. All that aside, that is nothing for a developer.
Let’s start with the first thing you mention: Doubling of the resolution on the exact same size display with the exact same aspect ratio. Wow! A developer has to recompile in the newer SDK to allow for iPhone 4 and G4 iPod Touch usage to be ideal (though the old app will work anyway) and they should use the guidelines to make their images and Springboard icon higher res (though the old icon will work anyway).
You sound like Apple should never do a year-over-year upgrade to their HW because it means that after a year developers will have to account for progress. That is what we’re talking about here, progress, not a lateral move by a seemingly infinite number of manufacturers with various display sizes, resolutions, aspect ratios, CPUs, GPUs, RAM, Android versions, etc. that aren’t being delivered with any stable or calculated progress over each other. Don’t believe me? Exhibit A: Dell Streak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion
Exactly the same occur with Android, you use the guidelines and the application will work on any resolution and device
Quote:
Oct 19, 2010
cpabon said...
The point that some people are missing is that it is not just a matter of supporting Android 2.1 or 2.2 et cetera.
It is 2.1 on Droid vs 2.1 on Incredible (for example). You would think an app written for 2.1 would behave the same on all devices running 2.1 but that is not the reality.
The manufacturer gets to put there own UI touches to the devices. The changes made by these manufactures changes things. You have text that appears correct on one device run off the screen on another. This problem doesn't just effect 1 shop developers it effects large big name projects.
These are real issues that development companies have to consider which is not present when developing for Apple. Take all the Android tablets coming out. Android was not written to support them. Even google says so. So what you get is an os that have been jimmy rigged by the manufactures to support different devices. Since not all of them do it the same it causes problems for someone trying to write software for them.
Everyone at my office that bought an Android phone wishes they'd bought an iPhone.
Out of the eleven in my office, we have 3 iPhones, 1 Droid and the rest Blackberry, and our IT manager who refuses to own a cell phone, or at least that is what he claims, unless he has one he keeps in his car.
Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Mobile is a VERY different game than the PC vs Mac wars from 15+ years ago. Back then, enterprise adoption drove the industry. Now, it's consumers in the drivers seat. Apple dominates with consumer innovation, satisfaction, and loyalty. PERIOD. Apple's biggest problem may be a lack of any real competitors. Then again, Apple is not one to sit on their laurels (note the constant improvements / updating to the iPod line - something they already dominate and clearly did not get lazy with).
Out of the eleven in my office, we have 3 iPhones, 1 Droid and the rest Blackberry, and our IT manager who refuses to own a cell phone, or at least that is what he claims, unless he has one he keeps in his car.
hah, you have a luddite as an IT manager. Sounds like it's time for a new IT manager.
If a $20 billion quarter doesn't get stockholder's attention, nothing else will. All Steve had to do was come on stage and point to a slide that says $20 billion. Point and say "We do know what we're doing". Specifically calling out competitors just comes across as a bit bush league.
Oh c'mon. Apple gets "called out" all the time these days -- it's expected when you're on top. Why shouldn't Steve/Apple call out the competition once in a while too? It's good competition and I don't mind it. I think it keeps everyone on their toes and keeps things interesting. Just my opinion.
On another note, I did find it interesting when Steve pointed out that there has been no hard data provided from Android handset makers of how many phones are being or have been sold? Is this true? Didn't Google say there are at least 200,000 Android activations a day or something like that? That's a lot of phones.
There IS a lot you can do with a stock Android device compared to a stock iPhone:
1. Most notably, wifi hotspot.
XDA developers is a site that shows you a lot about what Android can do, modded or not.
My question was not about stock vs. stock. The fact that stock Android phones offer the WiFi hotspot feature is not because Android is open-source but because Google, the handset makers, and carriers decided to put that feature in.
Adding this feature to Android phones that don't ship with it can require similar effort as jail-breaking an iOS device to add this feature there.
Open can mean two things, an OS which allows you to do more things in its stock configuration (for which Android has an advantage, though not all Android phones on all carriers have all the features) and being open-source. But open-source does not automatically means more features.
It's now the war of # of activations, which Google started back in May with 160,000 activations/day, then over 200K/day. Then Jobs countered with a higher number and now again with close to 300K. I'm sure Google will respond in kind as well.
i
Remember last time around? He suggested that Google was cooking the books, lying about the numbers. He tried to get people to think that, in reality, the facts were different from reality.
This time around, he takes an old number from Google, and a recent number from Apple, and compares the two. As if the comparison is meaningful. And guess what? Again, Apple "wins". But the comparison is bogus, so the conclusion is bogus.
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Ummm....recent reports show that, indeed, Android OS is now the more popular choice among consumers buying phones. Apple has been surpassed already.
We can claim that Google is cooking the books. We can claim that it ain't so, Joe. But the facts will be harder and harder to obfuscate as time goes on.
Soon, it will be "I don't care that everybody and his brother has an Android phone. I don't care that there is a lot more software available for Android. I have good taste. So I use Apple products."
Comments
960x480? 480x320? iPhone 3G GPU, iphone 3GS GPU, iPhone 4G GPU? OpenGL ES 1.0 or 2.0?
True... but how many permutations vs 100 x 244 (adding different CPUs, OpenGL and different GPUs).
And how many small developers can afford to buy 244 handsets (and their contracts)... then iteratively test them across 100 Android OS Versions (and OEM Skins) for every app.
That, my friend is daunting!
.
You're right... a friend of my next door neighbour's daughter's ex-husband's brother just bought an Android phone instead of an iPhone... Apple's going to hell.
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Do you choose to believe Steve when he claims that iOS is "NOT CLOSED" because Android is "fragmented"?
Is that being honest? Is that an example of a cogent point?
Well if he had said that he would be full of shiite, but he didn't, it was only you that said he did. Two independent points, both true cannot be arbitrarily linked together to create some alternate universe of meaning where one supposedly becomes used to create the other.
In summary, you are lying. Making stuff up. Quoting phantasms. Given that the below barely qualifies as drivel.
IMO, given all the history, it is not advisable to believe anything Steve says unless and until it is corroborated. He uses words to mean things that few other people realize. So he can claim, for example, that because Android is "fragmented", that means that iOS is indeed "open". Or something like that, if you don't really listen or think.
No argument.
But that does not justify the CEO of a public company spouting palpable bullshit.
Explain Google's Schmidt. He's made a career of spouting non-palpable bullshit and driving his past projects into the ground.
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets...scaled1000.gif
I mean, seriously. Jobs was right...
Just make sure your apps will run on this list of every modded ROM and custom UI of Android.
Just make sure your apps will run on this list of every modded ROM and custom UI of Android.
I'm trying to decide between the VanillaEclair 4.0 and the Donut SlimFast v1.0 M003
That was such a iPhone-centric response. "Denial ain't a river in Egypt, my friend."
denial about what? The unmitigated success of the "flash-less, closed-ecosystem" iPhone? Apparently it's not a big deal to TENS of millions of people. Who gives a hoot if android ships more devices, when most of them are crap? With the exception of the Droid line of verizon phones, most android releases are subpar. EVO 4G is a notable exception. RIM is dead. They are slowly (repeat - slowly) losing enterprise while making up very little ground with consumer. WP7 is DOA, despite being a somewhat novel approach to UI.
Steve would probably have been better off saying "Android being claimed as 'open' doesn't appear to be a tangible benefit compared to iOS" instead of saying that it's "disingenuous" because it's not disingenuous, it's a fact - Android is open. Just because it's open doesn't mean that it's good, bad or ugly, it's just open.
When Google is stressing that Android is open, this carries the implicit message that this is a good thing for the consumer in the end. And calling that implicit message as disingenuous is certainly somewhat justified. So, in the end Jobs can exactly be understood as what you suggest.
When Jobs said, 'we think this is a bit disingenuous', the 'this' could refer to 'open' or the fact that Google is stressing open as if it were a major advantage. If we think that Jobs is an arrogant jerk, we will naturally be more inclined to think he is referring to the former (open), but if we try to think what a rational mind could have meant with it, we will probably believe the latter (open not being a major advantage).
A general problem naturally is that in such official company statements (into which we can subsume Jobs words) there will always be a mixture of facts, general wisdoms, and conclusion, conjecture and opinion. We can always not agree with opinions, conjecture and certain conclusions but that does not mean they are lying or making things up, just that the listener or reader has to pay attention to differentiate the statements.
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Everyone at my office that bought an Android phone wishes they'd bought an iPhone.
You forget the iPad’s dimensions if we’re talking about a Universal app. All that aside, that is nothing for a developer.
Let’s start with the first thing you mention: Doubling of the resolution on the exact same size display with the exact same aspect ratio. Wow! A developer has to recompile in the newer SDK to allow for iPhone 4 and G4 iPod Touch usage to be ideal (though the old app will work anyway) and they should use the guidelines to make their images and Springboard icon higher res (though the old icon will work anyway).
You sound like Apple should never do a year-over-year upgrade to their HW because it means that after a year developers will have to account for progress. That is what we’re talking about here, progress, not a lateral move by a seemingly infinite number of manufacturers with various display sizes, resolutions, aspect ratios, CPUs, GPUs, RAM, Android versions, etc. that aren’t being delivered with any stable or calculated progress over each other. Don’t believe me? Exhibit A: Dell Streak.
Exactly the same occur with Android, you use the guidelines and the application will work on any resolution and device
Oct 19, 2010
cpabon said...
The point that some people are missing is that it is not just a matter of supporting Android 2.1 or 2.2 et cetera.
It is 2.1 on Droid vs 2.1 on Incredible (for example). You would think an app written for 2.1 would behave the same on all devices running 2.1 but that is not the reality.
The manufacturer gets to put there own UI touches to the devices. The changes made by these manufactures changes things. You have text that appears correct on one device run off the screen on another. This problem doesn't just effect 1 shop developers it effects large big name projects.
These are real issues that development companies have to consider which is not present when developing for Apple. Take all the Android tablets coming out. Android was not written to support them. Even google says so. So what you get is an os that have been jimmy rigged by the manufactures to support different devices. Since not all of them do it the same it causes problems for someone trying to write software for them.
http://blog.tweetdeck.com/android-ecosystem
.
Everyone at my office that bought an Android phone wishes they'd bought an iPhone.
Out of the eleven in my office, we have 3 iPhones, 1 Droid and the rest Blackberry, and our IT manager who refuses to own a cell phone, or at least that is what he claims, unless he has one he keeps in his car.
Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Mobile is a VERY different game than the PC vs Mac wars from 15+ years ago. Back then, enterprise adoption drove the industry. Now, it's consumers in the drivers seat. Apple dominates with consumer innovation, satisfaction, and loyalty. PERIOD. Apple's biggest problem may be a lack of any real competitors. Then again, Apple is not one to sit on their laurels (note the constant improvements / updating to the iPod line - something they already dominate and clearly did not get lazy with).
Out of the eleven in my office, we have 3 iPhones, 1 Droid and the rest Blackberry, and our IT manager who refuses to own a cell phone, or at least that is what he claims, unless he has one he keeps in his car.
hah, you have a luddite as an IT manager. Sounds like it's time for a new IT manager.
If a $20 billion quarter doesn't get stockholder's attention, nothing else will. All Steve had to do was come on stage and point to a slide that says $20 billion. Point and say "We do know what we're doing". Specifically calling out competitors just comes across as a bit bush league.
Oh c'mon. Apple gets "called out" all the time these days -- it's expected when you're on top. Why shouldn't Steve/Apple call out the competition once in a while too? It's good competition and I don't mind it. I think it keeps everyone on their toes and keeps things interesting. Just my opinion.
On another note, I did find it interesting when Steve pointed out that there has been no hard data provided from Android handset makers of how many phones are being or have been sold? Is this true? Didn't Google say there are at least 200,000 Android activations a day or something like that? That's a lot of phones.
Get back to me in 2 years and we'll see if Apple is bankrupt yet.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is predicting that Apple will be bankrupt in two years. Or in any other time frame.
Nobody.
So you can relax, and stop this sort of defense; it was never included in any attack.
There IS a lot you can do with a stock Android device compared to a stock iPhone:
1. Most notably, wifi hotspot.
XDA developers is a site that shows you a lot about what Android can do, modded or not.
My question was not about stock vs. stock. The fact that stock Android phones offer the WiFi hotspot feature is not because Android is open-source but because Google, the handset makers, and carriers decided to put that feature in.
Adding this feature to Android phones that don't ship with it can require similar effort as jail-breaking an iOS device to add this feature there.
Open can mean two things, an OS which allows you to do more things in its stock configuration (for which Android has an advantage, though not all Android phones on all carriers have all the features) and being open-source. But open-source does not automatically means more features.
It's now the war of # of activations, which Google started back in May with 160,000 activations/day, then over 200K/day. Then Jobs countered with a higher number and now again with close to 300K. I'm sure Google will respond in kind as well.
i
Remember last time around? He suggested that Google was cooking the books, lying about the numbers. He tried to get people to think that, in reality, the facts were different from reality.
This time around, he takes an old number from Google, and a recent number from Apple, and compares the two. As if the comparison is meaningful. And guess what? Again, Apple "wins". But the comparison is bogus, so the conclusion is bogus.
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).
Ummm....recent reports show that, indeed, Android OS is now the more popular choice among consumers buying phones. Apple has been surpassed already.
We can claim that Google is cooking the books. We can claim that it ain't so, Joe. But the facts will be harder and harder to obfuscate as time goes on.
Soon, it will be "I don't care that everybody and his brother has an Android phone. I don't care that there is a lot more software available for Android. I have good taste. So I use Apple products."
Explain Google's Schmidt. He's made a career of spouting non-palpable bullshit and driving his past projects into the ground.
Yeah - good point. As bad as Steve may be, there is at least one existent CEO who is worse in one regard.
Steve vs. Schmidt. Steve is not as bad as Schmidt.
That ain't saying much. Is that the strongest available defense of the man?