He's wrong about 7" tablets, though. And not just because Steve said it. I've said the same thing for weeks now. I think the sweet-spot is 9" myself. Not 9.7". And it's more to do with weight than anything else. but it has also do so with size in my opinion. If the iPad had the same res screen, but was 9" even I think it would be a nicer device.
Me too. If it was not for Apple we would all be working on dusty, creaky, plasticky, beige Windows computers with Motorola Symbian cell phones using a DataSync software and cable to sync your phone with the computer...Norton AV tools up the yazoo, laptops with 2 hr batteries, 15 different ugly power bricks in your house, a tower with cables, cables, cables, a wireless mouse but with a receiver on your desk connected to the tower with a cable, IE 4, Word, etc., etc.
So get that revolutionary 7" tablet (a size which btw you chose simply because you can't compete in price and quality in a larger device, a fact you conveniently omit...) out on the market so people can go. Wtf do I need a 7" inch device on the go, when I can do almost everything with my smart phone, and why should I go for a crammed reading, using, and browsing experience, when an ipad is a few inches and grams bigger so it won't make much difference to carry around in my bag, and certainly no difference to carry around at home.
You see rim, the scenario of a 7" tablet would work if people did not have smart phones. But sadly they do, so you are in essence trying to position a product between two devices: one that does portability much much better, being light, pocketable etc. etc. and one that does browsing, reading, app usage etc. much better than your device because of the larger screen. And you come up with something that's better in sweet f.a. Because sure it's a pleasure to use a 7" device instead of your phone at home, but you can't really go out with it and leave your phone behind, and if you are only going to use the device at home, then you might as well go at a decent size of the ipad.
7" devices are hardly adequate as ereaders with eink and that's as far as they are going. Of course some users will be suckered in here, some always are suckered in, and as soon as they figure out that what they have is good at neither portability nor usability, they will make it stand as photo frame or something and they will weep for their monies spent....
There is no reality distortion field here from apple. They worked their asses off for this device (and they are not merely trying to ride the coattails of some else as rim are doing) and they know damn well what the proper size should be.
Well, Apple actually spends the money on user interface research and before iPad was released to the public there were rumors that apple was buying 7" and 10" touch screen panels. No doubt they tested numerous sizes before deciding on the current iPad size. I accept the reality-distortion field because it usually becomes the new reality when people start using the products. I don't think this is fake, I think this is using great marketing to move consumer opinions. It's how a product succeeds. Great products that "came before their time" basically flopped because of poor marketing.
He's wrong about 7" tablets, though. And not just because Steve said it. I've said the same thing for weeks now. I think the sweet-spot is 9" myself. Not 9.7". And it's more to do with weight than anything else. but it has also do so with size in my opinion. If the iPad had the same res screen, but was 9" even I think it would be a nicer device.
Could you be more specific regarding your reasons for 'size'? Just an aesthetic thing, or something else? (Weight is constantly being brought down as things progress, so I am not concerned about that.)
Personally I own an iPhone and an iPad, I don't think I would have bought an iPad if it was 7" as I would not have seen a big enough improvement over my iPhone to justify it.
I believe the 7" form factor would work and is not the problem. If Apple came out with a 7" iPad (I own an iPad 32gig3G), I could count on great battery life and a better price than Any of the other announced tablets.
So...
Re: Flash. Well, I wouldn't mind it but battery life is More Important.
Re: Size. With iOS 4.2 and the right price, I'd buy it.
I've heard from every single one of my (latest version of) Android-using colleagues at work -- The battery life is absolutely DREADFUL. No Kidding... one can't get through ONE day on a single charge.
But this being said, it sounds like Jobs has decided NO 7" iPad. Bummer.
So his point was basically that 7" was a compromise not giving you enough usability as the iPad, nor enough portability as the iPhone.
I disagree with these comments of his (but its not like I have used a 7" tablet, so take my opinion for what its worth) but I do agree with his other comment. The ONLY reason all these companies are promising 7" tablets is because they cannot compete with Apple on price.
Listening to steve's comments on yesterday's call, I think you interpreted both points correctly. He made some comments about usability because screen elements have to be a certain distance apart from each other to be effectively used with fingers. And I think he views the iPad and it's 9.7" screen as something far more conducive to content creation AND consumption than say an iPhone or iPod touch. He made the point that at 7", you're losing around 45% screen real estate, which is really where the big penalty comes in as far as content creation, so you're in essence limited to a smartphone-level of functionality but in something that's much larger than a smartphone.
Finally, Apple is very much ahead of RIM when it comes to miniaturization of components and also the sheer economies of scale that they've developed over the years. Everything they've learned from making iPods to iPhones to unibody Macs contributes to a huge lead in not only design, but also manufacturing. Apple may not operate the factories, but they must still work closely with their partners in developing the systems and processes to manufacture something. I think Apple's past history in manufacturing their own computers contributes to that experience.
Flash is a lost cause, but I find myself agreeing about the 7" tablet. I would love to ditch the too small iPhone and the too big iPad and just use one mid-sized device. It would suit my needs better than either of the two current alternatives and I know i'm not alone. I've heard the same thing from far too many people for us all to be wrong.
Are you saying you'd hold up a 7" device to your head to use as a phone?
Well maybe he is right and maybe he is not, the market will decide once these devices come to the market.
And THAT is the major issue here. Until RIM or HP or SOMEONE gets off their butt and releases a tablet in 7", it's all just speculation.
Maybe RIM should spend their time and energy on actually creating a product they can sell instead of whining about Jobs presenting his view of the market. And, given recent history, I'd say that Jobs' view of the market has a lot going for it. But, hey, I'm open minded. I'll be happy to look at what RIM creates - if they ever have a product to sell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I kind of wondered where SJ was coming from on that one. If 7" is too small for a touch interface isn't that sort of a problem for an iPhone and iPod Touch as well.
Gee, a Boeing 727 is too small for International flights, so Toyota will never be able to sell a Camry. Right?
Suggestion - learn the difference between a tablet and a phone and THEN come back and express an opinion.
While one may chose to argue about the other statements from RiM's co-CEO, this one is hard to refute.
People resent a lot of things for the wrong reasons though, and they are fast to project resentment for other things in their lives to unrelated issues: My boss is yelling at me and I resent apple because if only they 'd given me that mac mini tower I 'd be sorted.
Steve and apple are of course fallible, and they have made some stubborn decisions that can be considered wrong (case in point for me is the whole anti glare thing), but to be honest these are very few and far between and do not warrant comments on reality distortion fields.
If there's anyone actually distorting reality at the moment it's rim, google and ms. Ms with their perennial vapourware and announced features that never materialize, google with their do no evil which translates to gather huge databases of private data, spy, and pimp ads to everyone, and lately rim which are distorting reality by saying that the market leader, the one they are trying to ride the coattails of is to blame. And at the same time touting 7" inch tablets as some sort of revelation, whilst not being honest in saying that they lack the hardware and software to create a 9" one that could seriously compete in price and quality with apple.
There's nothing surprising in RIM's response. It's not like they were going to admit it. In the end, what may very well happen is that the 7" tablets will be introduced, no one will buy them for whatever reason - or sell very little - RIM will proclaim that sales were "brisk", then quietly discontinue the product, or increase the screen size only to fail again and by sheer coincidence, the CEO will "leave the company to pursue other business opportunities".
I believe the 7" form factor would work and is not the problem. If Apple came out with a 7" iPad (I own an iPad 32gig3G), I could count on great battery life and a better price than Any of the other announced tablets.
So...
Re: Flash. Well, I wouldn't mind it but battery life is More Important.
Re: Size. With iOS 4.2 and the right price, I'd buy it.
I've heard from every single one of my (latest version of) Android-using colleagues at work -- The battery life is absolutely DREADFUL. No Kidding... one can't get through ONE day on a single charge.
But this being said, it sounds like Jobs has decided NO 7" iPad. Bummer.
your colleagues are either useless or lying, both my android handsets outperform both iphone 3gs and iphone 4 in battery life by a handy margin.
maybe its the extra calls they can take because of the improved reception??
And THAT is the major issue here. Until RIM or HP or SOMEONE gets off their butt and releases a tablet in 7", it's all just speculation.
Maybe RIM should spend their time and energy on actually creating a product they can sell instead of whining about Jobs presenting his view of the market. And, given recent history, I'd say that Jobs' view of the market has a lot going for it. But, hey, I'm open minded. I'll be happy to look at what RIM creates - if they ever have a product to sell.
Exactly. They should put their money where their mouth is. If I were the journalist listening to this guy from RIM chastising Jobs with some pretty harsh words I would go, ok, fair enough, so where can I buy your product then? Because there's no bigger reality distortion field than having someone try to talk his way into product superiority with no actual tangible product to sell.
Imagine if rim had been market leader here, if they 'd brought a new device that sold beyond expectations to the market, and Steve came out and said yes, well, we have a great product too, it's not out yet, we are not really sure why it will be better other than it will have a smaller screen, but don't buy into rim's lies, and keep waiting for our product to appear. Everyone would have jumped on him, and he would have been a laughing stock, much as rim's co-ceo is at the moment.
But I guess if you are not up to competing with actual products, you open your mouth a lot.
And of course they are so confident about their product that simply because another ceo said a few things about similar styled products you just had to reply to him. Well Balmer was laughing and mocking the iphone on launch, but no one at apple felt compelled to respond to him. They answered with their product via the market that found it useful and desirable.
So, rim should let their products do their talking...but wait they can't, they are not even here yet.
I thought this was ironic, it's not, apparently...
So tell us, oh wise one, which companies have the better products and keep losing to apple despite of this.
Let's take this example: Rim has the better tablet... oh wait, rim doesn't even have a tablet out yet?
But let's just throw some dirt and some platitudes and some of it will stick.
Btw, I loled so hard, at "better than anything Apple has offered or WILL offer". So you have a crystal ball too it seems.
Didn't think i needed to list them? Anyway, for anyone outside the reality distortion field....
Any SONY MP3 player is far better noise production wise than anything the iPod has ever offered. Heck even the Creative ones are better and the Zune HD is better for noise and picture..
the iPad is a lovely piece of hardware, crippled by useless production software. Browsing the web, watching a movie its Ok but if I want to do something professional, productive and compatible then I pull out a PC laptop which was half the price and will likely last twice the amount of time an Apple laptop will last (in my experience).
OSX is held up as the bastion of OS development..... but Win 7 is clearly better in nearly every way. Heck the new Ubu is better than OSX.
Any phone..as a phone is better than the iPhone, pick any manufacturer you like. iOS UI is so dated and poor now its not funny. Android just wipes the floor with it. You can set Android up so that the number of times you have to press an icon is so small it doesn't matter.
Pressing icon buttons to get to a Wifi network setting is so 2007!!!
lets not forget the TCO of iPhone too, in some places its 3 or 4 times the cost of other 3g phones.
Comments
He's wrong about 7" tablets, though. And not just because Steve said it. I've said the same thing for weeks now. I think the sweet-spot is 9" myself. Not 9.7". And it's more to do with weight than anything else. but it has also do so with size in my opinion. If the iPad had the same res screen, but was 9" even I think it would be a nicer device.
Yeah. I'm LOVIN' it.
Me too. If it was not for Apple we would all be working on dusty, creaky, plasticky, beige Windows computers with Motorola Symbian cell phones using a DataSync software and cable to sync your phone with the computer...Norton AV tools up the yazoo, laptops with 2 hr batteries, 15 different ugly power bricks in your house, a tower with cables, cables, cables, a wireless mouse but with a receiver on your desk connected to the tower with a cable, IE 4, Word, etc., etc.
Good times!
Uggh!
Best
Funny staff.
So get that revolutionary 7" tablet (a size which btw you chose simply because you can't compete in price and quality in a larger device, a fact you conveniently omit...) out on the market so people can go. Wtf do I need a 7" inch device on the go, when I can do almost everything with my smart phone, and why should I go for a crammed reading, using, and browsing experience, when an ipad is a few inches and grams bigger so it won't make much difference to carry around in my bag, and certainly no difference to carry around at home.
You see rim, the scenario of a 7" tablet would work if people did not have smart phones. But sadly they do, so you are in essence trying to position a product between two devices: one that does portability much much better, being light, pocketable etc. etc. and one that does browsing, reading, app usage etc. much better than your device because of the larger screen. And you come up with something that's better in sweet f.a. Because sure it's a pleasure to use a 7" device instead of your phone at home, but you can't really go out with it and leave your phone behind, and if you are only going to use the device at home, then you might as well go at a decent size of the ipad.
7" devices are hardly adequate as ereaders with eink and that's as far as they are going. Of course some users will be suckered in here, some always are suckered in, and as soon as they figure out that what they have is good at neither portability nor usability, they will make it stand as photo frame or something and they will weep for their monies spent....
There is no reality distortion field here from apple. They worked their asses off for this device (and they are not merely trying to ride the coattails of some else as rim are doing) and they know damn well what the proper size should be.
That was a good response, to be fair.
He's wrong about 7" tablets, though. And not just because Steve said it. I've said the same thing for weeks now. I think the sweet-spot is 9" myself. Not 9.7". And it's more to do with weight than anything else. but it has also do so with size in my opinion. If the iPad had the same res screen, but was 9" even I think it would be a nicer device.
Could you be more specific regarding your reasons for 'size'? Just an aesthetic thing, or something else? (Weight is constantly being brought down as things progress, so I am not concerned about that.)
Personally I own an iPhone and an iPad, I don't think I would have bought an iPad if it was 7" as I would not have seen a big enough improvement over my iPhone to justify it.
I believe the 7" form factor would work and is not the problem. If Apple came out with a 7" iPad (I own an iPad 32gig3G), I could count on great battery life and a better price than Any of the other announced tablets.
So...
Re: Flash. Well, I wouldn't mind it but battery life is More Important.
Re: Size. With iOS 4.2 and the right price, I'd buy it.
I've heard from every single one of my (latest version of) Android-using colleagues at work -- The battery life is absolutely DREADFUL. No Kidding... one can't get through ONE day on a single charge.
But this being said, it sounds like Jobs has decided NO 7" iPad. Bummer.
it's a headscratching exercise for most.....
you can list half a dozen products in the relevant sectors (mp3, phone etc.) that are better than anything Apple has offered or will offer.
Macs are rubbish for the money and iTunes is a joke.
they are masters in 'desperately average'
I fully agree with Mr RIM and I hope he finds a solution soon.
So his point was basically that 7" was a compromise not giving you enough usability as the iPad, nor enough portability as the iPhone.
I disagree with these comments of his (but its not like I have used a 7" tablet, so take my opinion for what its worth) but I do agree with his other comment. The ONLY reason all these companies are promising 7" tablets is because they cannot compete with Apple on price.
Listening to steve's comments on yesterday's call, I think you interpreted both points correctly. He made some comments about usability because screen elements have to be a certain distance apart from each other to be effectively used with fingers. And I think he views the iPad and it's 9.7" screen as something far more conducive to content creation AND consumption than say an iPhone or iPod touch. He made the point that at 7", you're losing around 45% screen real estate, which is really where the big penalty comes in as far as content creation, so you're in essence limited to a smartphone-level of functionality but in something that's much larger than a smartphone.
Finally, Apple is very much ahead of RIM when it comes to miniaturization of components and also the sheer economies of scale that they've developed over the years. Everything they've learned from making iPods to iPhones to unibody Macs contributes to a huge lead in not only design, but also manufacturing. Apple may not operate the factories, but they must still work closely with their partners in developing the systems and processes to manufacture something. I think Apple's past history in manufacturing their own computers contributes to that experience.
Flash is a lost cause, but I find myself agreeing about the 7" tablet. I would love to ditch the too small iPhone and the too big iPad and just use one mid-sized device. It would suit my needs better than either of the two current alternatives and I know i'm not alone. I've heard the same thing from far too many people for us all to be wrong.
Are you saying you'd hold up a 7" device to your head to use as a phone?
Well maybe he is right and maybe he is not, the market will decide once these devices come to the market.
And THAT is the major issue here. Until RIM or HP or SOMEONE gets off their butt and releases a tablet in 7", it's all just speculation.
Maybe RIM should spend their time and energy on actually creating a product they can sell instead of whining about Jobs presenting his view of the market. And, given recent history, I'd say that Jobs' view of the market has a lot going for it. But, hey, I'm open minded. I'll be happy to look at what RIM creates - if they ever have a product to sell.
I kind of wondered where SJ was coming from on that one. If 7" is too small for a touch interface isn't that sort of a problem for an iPhone and iPod Touch as well.
Gee, a Boeing 727 is too small for International flights, so Toyota will never be able to sell a Camry. Right?
Suggestion - learn the difference between a tablet and a phone and THEN come back and express an opinion.
While one may chose to argue about the other statements from RiM's co-CEO, this one is hard to refute.
People resent a lot of things for the wrong reasons though, and they are fast to project resentment for other things in their lives to unrelated issues: My boss is yelling at me and I resent apple because if only they 'd given me that mac mini tower I 'd be sorted.
Steve and apple are of course fallible, and they have made some stubborn decisions that can be considered wrong (case in point for me is the whole anti glare thing), but to be honest these are very few and far between and do not warrant comments on reality distortion fields.
If there's anyone actually distorting reality at the moment it's rim, google and ms. Ms with their perennial vapourware and announced features that never materialize, google with their do no evil which translates to gather huge databases of private data, spy, and pimp ads to everyone, and lately rim which are distorting reality by saying that the market leader, the one they are trying to ride the coattails of is to blame. And at the same time touting 7" inch tablets as some sort of revelation, whilst not being honest in saying that they lack the hardware and software to create a 9" one that could seriously compete in price and quality with apple.
I fully agree with Mr RIM and I hope he finds a solution soon.
lol Mr. RIM
problem for most CEO's competing with Apple is that they likely have a better product but people still buy Apple.
it's a headscratching exercise for most.....
you can list half a dozen products in the relevant sectors (mp3, phone etc.) that are better than anything Apple has offered or will offer.
Macs are rubbish for the money and iTunes is a joke.
they are masters in 'desperately average'
I fully agree with Mr RIM and I hope he finds a solution soon.
I thought this was ironic, it's not, apparently...
So tell us, oh wise one, which companies have the better products and keep losing to apple despite of this.
Let's take this example: Rim has the better tablet... oh wait, rim doesn't even have a tablet out yet?
But let's just throw some dirt and some platitudes and some of it will stick.
Btw, I loled so hard, at "better than anything Apple has offered or WILL offer". So you have a crystal ball too it seems.
Happens all the time.
I believe the 7" form factor would work and is not the problem. If Apple came out with a 7" iPad (I own an iPad 32gig3G), I could count on great battery life and a better price than Any of the other announced tablets.
So...
Re: Flash. Well, I wouldn't mind it but battery life is More Important.
Re: Size. With iOS 4.2 and the right price, I'd buy it.
I've heard from every single one of my (latest version of) Android-using colleagues at work -- The battery life is absolutely DREADFUL. No Kidding... one can't get through ONE day on a single charge.
But this being said, it sounds like Jobs has decided NO 7" iPad. Bummer.
your colleagues are either useless or lying, both my android handsets outperform both iphone 3gs and iphone 4 in battery life by a handy margin.
maybe its the extra calls they can take because of the improved reception??
And THAT is the major issue here. Until RIM or HP or SOMEONE gets off their butt and releases a tablet in 7", it's all just speculation.
Maybe RIM should spend their time and energy on actually creating a product they can sell instead of whining about Jobs presenting his view of the market. And, given recent history, I'd say that Jobs' view of the market has a lot going for it. But, hey, I'm open minded. I'll be happy to look at what RIM creates - if they ever have a product to sell.
Exactly. They should put their money where their mouth is. If I were the journalist listening to this guy from RIM chastising Jobs with some pretty harsh words I would go, ok, fair enough, so where can I buy your product then? Because there's no bigger reality distortion field than having someone try to talk his way into product superiority with no actual tangible product to sell.
Imagine if rim had been market leader here, if they 'd brought a new device that sold beyond expectations to the market, and Steve came out and said yes, well, we have a great product too, it's not out yet, we are not really sure why it will be better other than it will have a smaller screen, but don't buy into rim's lies, and keep waiting for our product to appear. Everyone would have jumped on him, and he would have been a laughing stock, much as rim's co-ceo is at the moment.
But I guess if you are not up to competing with actual products, you open your mouth a lot.
And of course they are so confident about their product that simply because another ceo said a few things about similar styled products you just had to reply to him. Well Balmer was laughing and mocking the iphone on launch, but no one at apple felt compelled to respond to him. They answered with their product via the market that found it useful and desirable.
So, rim should let their products do their talking...but wait they can't, they are not even here yet.
iPhone: outselling Blackberry
iPad: oustelling Playbook
iOS: outperforming Blackberry OS (more iOS developers, more iOS apps, etc)
Steve Jobs can talk smack because he has results to back him up.
I thought this was ironic, it's not, apparently...
So tell us, oh wise one, which companies have the better products and keep losing to apple despite of this.
Let's take this example: Rim has the better tablet... oh wait, rim doesn't even have a tablet out yet?
But let's just throw some dirt and some platitudes and some of it will stick.
Btw, I loled so hard, at "better than anything Apple has offered or WILL offer". So you have a crystal ball too it seems.
Didn't think i needed to list them? Anyway, for anyone outside the reality distortion field....
Any SONY MP3 player is far better noise production wise than anything the iPod has ever offered. Heck even the Creative ones are better and the Zune HD is better for noise and picture..
the iPad is a lovely piece of hardware, crippled by useless production software. Browsing the web, watching a movie its Ok but if I want to do something professional, productive and compatible then I pull out a PC laptop which was half the price and will likely last twice the amount of time an Apple laptop will last (in my experience).
OSX is held up as the bastion of OS development..... but Win 7 is clearly better in nearly every way. Heck the new Ubu is better than OSX.
Any phone..as a phone is better than the iPhone, pick any manufacturer you like. iOS UI is so dated and poor now its not funny. Android just wipes the floor with it. You can set Android up so that the number of times you have to press an icon is so small it doesn't matter.
Pressing icon buttons to get to a Wifi network setting is so 2007!!!
lets not forget the TCO of iPhone too, in some places its 3 or 4 times the cost of other 3g phones.
Vertical integration always fails.....always will.
Enjoy the good times, they won't last forever
a co-CEO of Research in Motion said the comments do not apply to users "who live outside of Apple's distortion field."
Fewer of those this year than last year, than the year before, than the year before...
McD